Help with broken Eros Speakers

[unknownuser]

My current system consists of 2 eros mk2 speakers running off a Marantz 4000 reciever (100watt per front channel) as the main speakers.

I have recently had two tweeters ( scan speak 9500's) stop working. One in each pair. I had a spare that i placed in the first one that went which is why i am assuming it is the tweeter that went (not crossover/etc issue). They did not go at the same time, probally about two weeks apart. The speakers have only had around 3 months of use.

As you may have guessed at the time of these indiscressions i was playing the system loud ( ok very loud) 40 of 50 on the volume playing a SACD both times.

There are a couple of things that have been bothering me about these tweeters stopping working and i was hoping that the people on this forum will be able to help me out with there knowledge.

1. I like to think that i have a reasonable ear for sound and I did not hear any distortion before the tweeter stopped working. Is this normal, i was under the impression ( maybe false) that i could play the speakers as loud as i wanted up until the point that the speakers started to distort without doing them damage. They basically just stopped producing sound.

2. Has anyone else ever had this problem?

3. What is likely to have broken in the tweeter, and is there a chance i will be able to repair it?

4. What should i look for to diagnose the problem?

Since i live in Australia there is lttle point sending the speaker back even if it is under warrenty as the freight ends up costing about as much as buying a new one. So am willing to try and fix the problem myself even if there is a chance that i completely stuff it. So any help in that regard will be great.

Regards

Murray



(Originally posted by: Murray Bryant)

[curt_c]

A couple of thoughts…

One would be that you were clipping the tweeters even though you didn’t hear them complain. See Rod Elliott’s article at the link below:

<A HREF="http://sound.westhost.com/tweeters.htm">http://sound.westhost.com/tweeters.htm</A>

The other might be your choice for L2, the .22 mH inductor. Note that WJ selected a very low DCR inductor here, and if I recall correctly, this is important in a series crossover to protect the tweeter.

C

[bmaupin]

Low DCR very important for inductor across tweeter. Use at least 18ga, preferably 16 or 15ga.

[unknownuser]

Thanks Curt that link is quite informative.

I am i wrong in reading it that it "may" be a problem with the amp clipping under the load (80%) of max, which possibly cause too much stress on the tweeter.

As for the inductor i am a little sketchy as to how to work out if i am using the correct quality inductor.

The inductor i used is a Alpha-core Copper Foil inductor AWG12 .22mH

Do you know if this is a reasonable choice or should i look to replace them.

Thanks for the reply


(Originally posted by: Murray Bryant)

[curt_c]

The inductor is fine, just what Wayne suggested, so I suspect the issue is clipping in the receiver…

First I’m assuming the Marantz 4000 you speak of is the SR4000, a 5 channel HT receiver. Doing a little web search I’ve found conflicting specs on the power, either 80 or 100 watts on the front channels, but all rated at 8 ohms. As you know, the Eros is a 4 ohm speaker with a fairly low impedance minima. This will require much more current from the receiver, and may be taxing the power supply excessively.

Due to the way the FTC has allowed the manufacturer’s to test and spec their products, (See my post down a ways for a link to the document ‘FTC final ruling’.) the wattage specs were likely with ONLY the front two, channels driven. I think it is likely that the power supply for the receiver is sagging, due both to the 4 ohm impedance of the Eros, and the fact that you are probably using all 5 channels simultaneously. If this is the case, the amplifier’s output will go into clipping at a relatively low SPL.

I'm thinking the best solution is likely a new receiver. One capable of higher output and 4 ohm rated.

C

[mikehj]

If your receiver has pre-outs, don’t buy another receiver. Buy a good quality 5-channel amp and use your receiver as a Pre/Pro only. Search audiogon and pick up a Parasound or ATI for less than a $1000 and you’ll have better amplification than all but the most expensive receivers.

The Eros are relatively easy speakers to drive but they do stay 4 ohm for most of the audio band. I’m sure you were into clipping on the peaks if you were playing complex 5-channel music at high volume. However I’m surprised that you blew your tweeters before the receiver shut itself off. Most receivers have relatively good self-protection.

What are your other speakers? What were you listening to? Were you driving them all full range? Most 100 to 120 w/ch receivers poop out at between 60 and 80 w/ch all channels driven (8 ohm loads). Most will shut off if you try to drive 5 4-ohm loads (test loads) at rated power for any period of time.

I’ kinda curious since I have a pair of Eros MkII that I finished not too long ago. I’m driving them with a Rega Mira integrated (65 w/ch).

Cheers,

Mike

[Andy_G]

> If your receiver has pre-outs, don’t buy
> another receiver. Buy a good quality
> 5-channel amp and use your receiver as a
> Pre/Pro only. Search audiogon and pick up a
> Parasound or ATI for less than a $1000 and
> you’ll have better amplification than all
> but the most expensive receivers.

> The Eros are relatively easy speakers to
> drive but they do stay 4 ohm for most of the
> audio band. I’m sure you were into clipping
> on the peaks if you were playing complex
> 5-channel music at high volume. However I’m
> surprised that you blew your tweeters before
> the receiver shut itself off. Most receivers
> have relatively good self-protection.

> What are your other speakers? What were you
> listening to? Were you driving them all full
> range? Most 100 to 120 w/ch receivers poop
> out at between 60 and 80 w/ch all channels
> driven (8 ohm loads). Most will shut off if
> you try to drive 5 4-ohm loads (test loads)
> at rated power for any period of time.

> I’ kinda curious since I have a pair of Eros
> MkII that I finished not too long ago. I’m
> driving them with a Rega Mira integrated (65
> w/ch).

He really only needs a decent amp for driving the mains, a stereo amp would do, let the Marantz drive the rears and centre.. Cheaper that way.

And Murray, you do know you can get replacement tweeters from WES Components, don't you ?

[unknownuser]

Thanks Andy i discovered Wes Components just recently. And have actually already ordered replacements.


(Originally posted by: Murray Bryant)

[unknownuser]

> If your receiver has pre-outs, don’t buy
> another receiver. Buy a good quality
> 5-channel amp and use your receiver as a
> Pre/Pro only. Search audiogon and pick up a
> Parasound or ATI for less than a $1000 and
> you’ll have better amplification than all
> but the most expensive receivers.

> The Eros are relatively easy speakers to
> drive but they do stay 4 ohm for most of the
> audio band. I’m sure you were into clipping
> on the peaks if you were playing complex
> 5-channel music at high volume. However I’m
> surprised that you blew your tweeters before
> the receiver shut itself off. Most receivers
> have relatively good self-protection.

> What are your other speakers? What were you
> listening to? Were you driving them all full
> range? Most 100 to 120 w/ch receivers poop
> out at between 60 and 80 w/ch all channels
> driven (8 ohm loads). Most will shut off if
> you try to drive 5 4-ohm loads (test loads)
> at rated power for any period of time.

> I’ kinda curious since I have a pair of Eros
> MkII that I finished not too long ago. I’m
> driving them with a Rega Mira integrated (65
> w/ch).

> Cheers,

> Mike

Mike

I am currently not running a center channel and the two rears are the Wayne's D3's.

I was listening to a SACD (Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon) at the time.

I have shut off the reciever once in the past playing the Goldfrapp SACD. But it certainly didn't shut off on the night that the latest tweeter blew.

As usual this forum has been really helpfull thanks guys, armed with my new found knowledge i will now be hunting for a new amplifier solution ;)




(Originally posted by: Murray Bryant)

[mikehj]

Well the D3s are real 4 ohm loads too…..I’m still really surprised that you didn’t hear anything clicking or popping during the dynamic passages. That’s kind of spooky.

Have you found any information to help you do a post-mortem on the tweeters? I’d love to find out what happened considering that I like to crank the volume a bit too.

BTW I was able to clip my Denon 2802 (popping and clicking from the tweeter) driving Paradigm Mon 9s, two channel, full range with Beethoven’s 6 symphony at what I thought was a reasonable volume. Of course I rushed out and exchanged it for the 3802…which was silly considering the only published power difference was only 20W/ch. That was a long time ago…before I thought to actually research these things.

Mike

[unknownuser]

Now that i think back on it some more, i do recall hearing a couple of clicks/pops once or twice. Of course i was drinking at the time of this and i dismissed it as being something else. I know know better ;)

Well as they say live and learn.

Apart from the good article describing why the tweeters had blown (earlier in this thread) i have not been able to find any information as to exactually what happened to the tweeter. (or if there is any chance of the tweeters being fixed)

The article points to the fact that the voice coil will be damaged, but as to exactally how i am unsure.

I guess the moral of this story is that if you like to listen to loud music (which i do) then make sure you have plenty of spare power in your amps! or plenty of spare tweeters... either way :)




(Originally posted by: Murray Bryant)