Veneer Staining Problems

[95645vuk]

I built a pair of GR-Research A/V-1RS and used a cherry veneer on them. I applied one coat of Red Mohogany stain and there were several places with extreme darks spots. When I did a test piece there wasn't this problem. I tried evening out the stain while but it didn't help. Has anyone had this problem and can you help?

How do you post a picture?

[martyh]

> I built a pair of GR-Research A/V-1RS and
> used a cherry veneer on them. I applied one
> coat of Red Mohogany stain and there were
> several places with extreme darks spots.
> When I did a test piece there wasn't this
> problem. I tried evening out the stain while
> but it didn't help. Has anyone had this
> problem and can you help?

> How do you post a picture?

I'll help with the stain issue. My guess is that you did this on unfinished veneer-by that I mean you've sanded them well, to at least a 320 grit, but did not use a sanding sealer to pre-treat the veneer. If that's the case, then I'm afraid you've just experienced one of those learned-the-hard-way lessons. You may want to try to re-sand them with a 320-400 grit paper and re-stain them for an additional five to eight minutes. Also, when finishing with poly, you'll begin to see some evening of their appearance.

Wood is an amazing thing. It's beautiful in an unfinished state, but with the proper preparation and finishing it becomes one of the few things we can improve on over Mother Nature (or maybe just reveal some of her hidden qualities!). However the key is preparation. Invest $10 in a quart of sanding sealer (at any Big Box home improvement store) and just follow the directions. You can take something as benign as birch veneer and make it look like marble!

[matg]

yes, welcome to the world of wood. without a picture, here is my assesment of what may have happened. Glue could have soaked through the veneer, causing discolored spots. differences in sanding coverage or thouroness can result in uneven color. poorly mixed or old and starting to clump staind will do wierd things. if the veneer got wet anywherer after it was sanded, the grain will raise and a dark spot will come through in the stain. Use pre-stain wood conditioner insteas of the sanding sealer. Sanding sealer can be applied before stain, but get too much and the stain won't take in an area, sand it to much and you get the opposite in another area. The pre-stain conditioner does the uneven soaking in so that your stain has a more uniform surface to soak in to.

Also, sanding sealers work better with pigment type stains(the kind with all the stuff in the bottom of the can that has to be stirred into solution) than it does with dye type stains(just colored oil, not lots of stuff to be stirred into solution). This is due to how sanding sealer will actually seal the grain, the pigment will (usually) sit better where the dye will (usually) just wipe off. The prestain conditioner most always works better with penetratin oil type stains (minwax, old masters, deft, general finishes, zar) sanding sealers mostly work better with lacquer type stains, which you really don't find much for consumer use. I use sanding sealer after the stain has dried, i apply a few coats, then lightly sand before applying my top coats or finish coats, it give a much smoother surface and a much slicker looking final finish.

Then again, working with wood, especially veneers, sometimes isht happens and no amount of prep or sanding can fix it. Sometimes, with paper backed veneer, over sanding will expose the backer material or make the veneer micro-thin in an area and you see the backer material soak up the stain and you get a dark spot. Kinda like staining a brown paper bag, which is basicly the same material used in paper backed veneers. It is possible to over sand.

Bummer to hear that your hard worked project has hit a snag. Stain can be a pain in the *beep*. Try using the gel stains, they seem to have more even coverage due to their thicker consistancy. They are a bit more forgiving on tough pieces.

not sure if this helps at all, but all else fails, you may be on to paint, or new veneer.

> I built a pair of GR-Research A/V-1RS and
> used a cherry veneer on them. I applied one
> coat of Red Mohogany stain and there were
> several places with extreme darks spots.
> When I did a test piece there wasn't this
> problem. I tried evening out the stain while
> but it didn't help. Has anyone had this
> problem and can you help?

> How do you post a picture?

[dB]

http://users.d-web.com/dbrown/pix/pix_files/stairs2.JPG


Sorry to be hijacking this thread but may be related.

I'm staining my oak stair treads and other parts, but the problem I'm having is that the stain (oil-based Zar) doesn't penetrate the lighter, tighter grain areas of the oak. I'm trying to match my pre-finished oak flooring and I believe I have the color about right. It's just that it's not dark enough especially like I said in the flat areas away from the deep grain.

You can see in the pic (sorry so big) the board at the very bottom of the pic,ie, top of the stairs is the type of problem I'm having. And the one tread that I tried came out the same.

Can I try a pre-treatment or will that just make the entire board lighter?

Dave

[bking]

Cherry is notorious for looking blotchy after stain is applied. You can get away with using a gel-type stain, but something like MinWax Wood Finish liquid stain will result in a blotchy job just about every time. It's the nature of the beast with cherry. You could sand the veneer a bit but since it's so thin you won't be able to go very far. Put a wavy pencil mark on the surface and sand until it's gone, then STOP! Now use a gel stain on the surface and see if that doesn't result in a more uniform look. Whatever you do, be secure in the knowledge that another characteristic of cherry is that it darkens with age, so that may help too.

[bking]

Provided Link: Here's a link that may explain it better (http://www.universalfloors.com/Oak%20Flooring.htm)


Dave,

Preconditioning the wood probably won't do much for oak. It works better on pine and cherry to prevent blotching. Take a look at your boards and compare them with the originals. You know, there are several ways to saw wood from logs. There's flat sawn, rift cut, and quarter sawn. Since the orientation of the grain is different in each case, they will accept stain differently. So you can't expect flat sawn oak to finish the same way as quarter sawn.

[dB]

> Dave,

> Preconditioning the wood probably won't do
> much for oak. It works better on pine and
> cherry to prevent blotching. Take a look at
> your boards and compare them with the
> originals. You know, there are several ways
> to saw wood from logs. There's flat sawn,
> rift cut, and quarter sawn. Since the
> orientation of the grain is different in
> each case, they will accept stain
> differently. So you can't expect flat sawn
> oak to finish the same way as quarter sawn.

There still must be a way to get it darker. My pre-finished flooring has boards which are are all different -- flat, quarter, etc. And my treads are laminated, so there are different saw patterns there too. It's just that the stain isn't taking. I've tried sanding it and putting the stain on heavy and leaving it on for a while. Neither thing helps.

Dave

[brianbunge]

> There still must be a way to get it darker.
> My pre-finished flooring has boards which
> are are all different -- flat, quarter, etc.
> And my treads are laminated, so there are
> different saw patterns there too. It's just
> that the stain isn't taking. I've tried
> sanding it and putting the stain on heavy
> and leaving it on for a while. Neither thing
> helps.

> Dave

Dave,

Do you have a Woodcraft or Rockler woodworking store near you? If so, see if you can find a dye (not a stain) that closely matches the look of your stain. I've found that oak requires the use of stain and dye to get the even coloring I want. For instance, I've used a black gel stain on oak veneered subwoofer and speaker cabinets before. It darkens the deep grain nicely, but still leaves a brownish tint to the tighter grain. I've then added a black dye which darkened the tighter grain. Conversely, when I tried to only use the dye, the deeper grain would not darken properly.

I'm sure there are other ways of doing this as well, but this is what has worked for me.

I hope this helps!

[95645vuk]

Thank you to all that posted to help. It's good to know that cherry can get blochy and it's not totaly my fault. These speakers are for a friend and I hope he likes them ok. Thanks again guys.

> Cherry is notorious for looking blotchy
> after stain is applied. You can get away
> with using a gel-type stain, but something
> like MinWax Wood Finish liquid stain will
> result in a blotchy job just about every
> time. It's the nature of the beast with
> cherry. You could sand the veneer a bit but
> since it's so thin you won't be able to go
> very far. Put a wavy pencil mark on the
> surface and sand until it's gone, then STOP!
> Now use a gel stain on the surface and see
> if that doesn't result in a more uniform
> look. Whatever you do, be secure in the
> knowledge that another characteristic of
> cherry is that it darkens with age, so that
> may help too.

[Bruce]

Looking at the photo, it appears that the boards down the stairs are "quartersawn" which in some cases may even reveal "flaky medullary rays". This edge grain tends to accept more stain and finish darker. Your top step is flat grain and it appears to be sanded quite finely so it won't accept stain nearly as well.
Two solutions may help.
-First, you could sand the flat grain with a coarser grit sandpaper to create a rougher surface that will accept stain more easily. That may leave sanding marks along the grain though.
-Another solution is to use dyes to darken the flat grain in order to get the color closer to that of the edge grain of your other stair members.

"Fine Woodworking Magazine" has the following article that may help. I just returned from our local library but unfortunately they don't have that copy anymore:

"How to Conceal Sapwood" by Teri Masaschi (Use gel stains, dyes and pigments to refine cherry and walnut)
"Must furniture makers and woodworkers resign themselves to ignoring the increasing amounts of sapwood in cherry and walnut boards? Should they cut it out or use only narrow boards? By using gels, dyes, and pigments, Teri Masaschi describes how to use and conceal sapwood to retain the beauty of the wood. Step-by-step instructions and photographs detail how to use various techniques to hide or blend sapwood into surrounding heartwood."
-From Fine Woodworking #161 (Jan/Feb 2003) P. 42-45

I just finished veneering a Quatro 15/240W subwoofer corner enclosure, but have a number of sapwood strips to blend-in with the heartwood. The article above explains exactly how to do correct this problem.

If anyone can find the article, I would love to be able to get a text version of it.

I hope some of this helps

[bill]

I had similar problems with ash, which has a structure similar to oak. An accident while sponging off excess glue led to the following solution.

When the oak is sanded fine (say 220 grit), the areas between the open grain tend to resist stain, as you've noticed. However, if you raise the grain by sponging on some water, you'll open the pores and the color will take much more uniformly.

What happened to me was I sponged off somne glue and forgot to re-sand. When I stained, the areas that had gotten wet accepted a lot more stain. I was using a Zar stain as well, for what it's worth.

Try it as an experiment.

HTH,
Bill

> Sorry to be hijacking this thread but may be
> related.

> I'm staining my oak stair treads and other
> parts, but the problem I'm having is that
> the stain (oil-based Zar) doesn't penetrate
> the lighter, tighter grain areas of the oak.
> I'm trying to match my pre-finished oak
> flooring and I believe I have the color
> about right. It's just that it's not dark
> enough especially like I said in the flat
> areas away from the deep grain.

> You can see in the pic (sorry so big) the
> board at the very bottom of the pic,ie, top
> of the stairs is the type of problem I'm
> having. And the one tread that I tried came
> out the same.

> Can I try a pre-treatment or will that just
> make the entire board lighter?

> Dave

[matg]

you can let the stain dry and then apply a second and even a third coat to get the depth of color you want. Also, solvent based top coats like polyurethane will give an amber 'cast' to the finished color, making it a bit darker. Also, most solvent based finishes oxidize over time and can darken slightly. You can also put small amounts of the oil based stains into solvent(oil) based poly to get a tinted finish to darken the final finished color(test pieces are highly recommended!). sanding with a corser finish grit, like 180 as opposed to 220 may allow a darker finish as well.

> Sorry to be hijacking this thread but may be
> related.

> I'm staining my oak stair treads and other
> parts, but the problem I'm having is that
> the stain (oil-based Zar) doesn't penetrate
> the lighter, tighter grain areas of the oak.
> I'm trying to match my pre-finished oak
> flooring and I believe I have the color
> about right. It's just that it's not dark
> enough especially like I said in the flat
> areas away from the deep grain.

> You can see in the pic (sorry so big) the
> board at the very bottom of the pic,ie, top
> of the stairs is the type of problem I'm
> having. And the one tread that I tried came
> out the same.

> Can I try a pre-treatment or will that just
> make the entire board lighter?

> Dave

[dB]

> Thank you to all that posted to help. It's
> good to know that cherry can get blochy and
> it's not totaly my fault. These speakers are
> for a friend and I hope he likes them ok.
> Thanks again guys.

And thanks to all for the help on my stair treads. Not an easy problem to solve, but I now have a feeling for what's going on with the wood and the effects of the stains.

Dave

[Bruce]

http://www3.telus.net/public/a6a43712/Quatro%2015%20Corner%20Sub%20Veneer%201web.jpg


"Do you have a Woodcraft or Rockler woodworking store near you?"

Unfortunately no! We have HD but no specialty woodworking stores except for Lee Valley.

Does anyone in the Vancouver area know of a source for aniline dye powder that can be mixed with alcohol to correct this sapwood color problem?

Think an art supply store might carry aniline dye?

Here's the veneer with lighter sapwood streaks

[damkor]

Next time, don't stain hardwoods. It's not good. Staining is what babies do to your when they don't have diapers. It's when you get something messy on your clothes. It's not what we do to hardwood veneers.

Next time, just apply an oil finish, or clear polyurethane.

The only reason to use stain is over MDF to make it look like dark wood.

Sorry.