High-end audio Survey

[gotham]

Provided Link: http://freeonlinesurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=txgccr0pcutatwb247627


Hello all,

I am working on a very important dissertation on the high-end audio industry. Could you please-please speare a couple of minutes (<5 mins) to fill out a survey for me? Your response is valuable.

I would really appreciate your effort.
Please do not abandon a survey in progress as it will lead to huge errors.

Thanks for your feedback!! Appreciated!!!!

simply click on the link shown below

thanks a ton!!!!!!

[cole]

Does a post like that on "this " board define ironic? Cause I have always had a hard time understanding fully what ironic means.

[bogie]

Are you a student, or are you getting paid for this?

[gotham]

> Are you a student, or are you getting paid
> for this?

I am a student, and unfortunately not getting paid. :)

[gotham]

> Does a post like that on "this "
> board define ironic? Cause I have always had
> a hard time understanding fully what ironic
> means.

Appreciate the criticism.

I can understand.. but how else do i find a large audience within this field quickly?? :)

[cole]

I didnt see a box for DIY. After all, if I did find high end out there then I wouldnt be here;)

[dancarroll]

> I didnt see a box for DIY. After all, if I
> did find high end out there then I wouldnt
> be here;)

Well, I should not say that, because I have no right to speak for you. But I imagine a number of people would still be here, just trying to replicate high end for a lot less money!

[dancarroll]

This is probably a good place, as is the board at Madisound.com. There are also other boards, but those are the only two I frequent with any regularity. I have not looked at your survey because I don't want to start until I can finish, but you likely should have something that recognizes DIY. It is home to a lot of high end designs these days, as well as clever work by clever people to replicate high end designs.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> Well, I should not say that, because I have
> no right to speak for you. But I imagine a
> number of people would still be here, just
> trying to replicate high end for a lot less
> money!

That's exactly why we DIY. For 1/5th or less than the cost of say a Wilson Audio system, we have the opportunity to get the same, or better, performance, AND the satisfaction of DIY.

[gotham]

> I didnt see a box for DIY. After all, if I
> did find high end out there then I wouldnt
> be here;)

:D true.

drat, should have thought about a dissertation on the 'Future of DIY and is it killing high-end?' :P

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> :D true.

> drat, should have thought about a
> dissertation on the 'Future of DIY and is it
> killing high-end?' :P

High-end is not being killed by DIY, but by uneducated consumers falling for the BOSE's of the world.

The high end guys need to let the world know they exist and highlight the superiority of their product over BOSE. But the ONLY audio gear I ever hear advertised anywhere else but audio media is BOSE. Their marketing runs rings around the "high-enders" and their market share reflects it.

[gotham]

> This is probably a good place, as is the
> board at Madisound.com. There are also other
> boards, but those are the only two I
> frequent with any regularity. I have not
> looked at your survey because I don't want
> to start until I can finish, but you likely
> should have something that recognizes DIY.
> It is home to a lot of high end designs
> these days, as well as clever work by clever
> people to replicate high end designs.

Thanks for your feedback Dan!! (and the other link) Appreciated.

i do know 'DIY' has a big influence (not a pretty one) on this industry. I am working on another questionnaire with 6 questions on the infulence of DIY on this market.

thanks again

[gotham]

> High-end is not being killed by DIY, but by
> uneducated consumers falling for the BOSE's
> of the world.

> The high end guys need to let the world know
> they exist and highlight the superiority of
> their product over BOSE. But the ONLY audio
> gear I ever hear advertised anywhere else
> but audio media is BOSE. Their marketing
> runs rings around the
> "high-enders" and their market
> share reflects it.

I agree to a certain point. There are some companies out there who claim to be high-end by simply ripping off their customers. This is why the industry gets a bad name, and is dubbed 'the corn industry' in general, consumers are put off by hearing that a power cord can cost $500!!

its sad. Yet, there is great degree of truth that this industry will always remain very small because, the time taken to 'baptize' a consumer into an audiophile is very long. A new strategy should be sought after.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> I agree to a certain point. There are some
> companies out there who claim to be high-end
> by simply ripping off their customers. This
> is why the industry gets a bad name, and is
> dubbed 'the corn industry' in general,
> consumers are put off by hearing that a
> power cord can cost $500!!

That's NOT high end, but high crimes. Those high-end companies should do whatever they can to distance themselves from the vaporware like power cords, wooden block equipment isolators, and the little power poles to get your speaker wires off the floor.

> its sad. Yet, there is great degree of truth
> that this industry will always remain very
> small because, the time taken to 'baptize' a
> consumer into an audiophile is very long. A
> new strategy should be sought after.

One of the big problems is that magazines will take advertising dollars from any fly-by-night crackpot that will take a sucker's money for such nonsensical garbage. Those same magazines will also host respectable manufacturers, thereby equating the two, however undeserved. Then, there are the idiot reviewers who pile on the laughable adjectives in order to set themselves up as some golden-eared seer through whom the audio gods speak. Spare me the subjective crap and give me the measurements. Describing what you hear can only go so far, much as trying to describe the taste of a banana. Sweet, firm but soft, but beyond that, how can you tell that from a strawberry? Only by you sampling it can you know for yourself if you like it.

There's way too much hyperbole in the high-end, too many English majors writing prose and not enough hard data from which you can then choose an audition or two.

My 2 cents anyway . . .

[bogie]

I mean, I went in one local "audiophile" store, checked out a couple of subs, etc., and then the guy asked me what kinda system I had... Told him, and rather than trying to get me to spend the money where it could do some good, tried to sell me some $400 speaker wires... If I have $400 to throw at the thing, it's gonna go toward speakers first. Sad thing was, prior to him launching into that, I was darn near ready to pull the trigger on some replacements for my downstairs Infinities...

> consumers are put off by hearing that a
> power cord can cost $500!!

[dancarroll]

> I mean, I went in one local
> "audiophile" store, checked out a
> couple of subs, etc., and then the guy asked
> me what kinda system I had... Told him, and
> rather than trying to get me to spend the
> money where it could do some good, tried to
> sell me some $400 speaker wires...

Lotsa margin in such wires . . . but what would I know?

[wingnut]

> High-end is not being killed by DIY, but by
> uneducated consumers falling for the BOSE's
> of the world.

> The high end guys need to let the world know
> they exist and highlight the superiority of
> their product over BOSE. But the ONLY audio
> gear I ever hear advertised anywhere else
> but audio media is BOSE. Their marketing
> runs rings around the
> "high-enders" and their market
> share reflects it.

Agreed. Perception is reality. I don't like the affect a certain lossy format called mp3 is having, either. Most teenagers these days are clueless about hi-fidelity audio. And you're right, it's the industry that's at fault. Gotta give Bose some credit. They could sell tutus, pencils - whatever - and people would blindly buy by the stuff by the truckload, just like they do those stupid little cubes.

[AJ]

> Most teenagers these days
> are clueless about hi-fidelity audio.

Easy buddy... I know of a few teenagers on this board (including me). But i do agree, the only kids that even have a clue are those that actually listen and respect the music they listen to.

[kene]

> Lotsa margin in such wires . . . but what
> would I know?

You're absolutely right. And most of them suck (or more correctly, they don't sound all that different from stock cords). I feel most of the major companies making power cords do it just so buyers of their speaker cables and interconnects can buy powercords that match aesthetically. The only power cords I've found that make a difference worth paying for are Cardas and Kimber. And that doesn't change the fact that their profit margins are ridiculous.

[AJ]

Umm... Tell me, unless it is over 20ft long how is an upgraded power cord going to better a stock 16/3 cord?

[kene]

Even one more sweetener for the deal is never being stuck with someone else's set of tastes/compromises for any given model from a given company. Wilsons and Thiels are two of a small list of companies that have adequate lack of boxiness, but Wilsons tend to sound sterile, while Thiels can be a touch zingy for my tastes. I don't deal with that in my own speakers.

[AJ]

Dude, you really need to add a DIY section!

[johnastockman]

> Hello all,

> I am working on a very important
> dissertation on the high-end audio industry.
> Could you please-please speare a couple of
> minutes ( I would really appreciate your
> effort.
> Please do not abandon a survey in progress
> as it will lead to huge errors.

> Thanks for your feedback!! Appreciated!!!!

> simply click on the link shown below

> thanks a ton!!!!!!

Like the other gents said, a DIY part would be great...I am very biased, though. I worked for a long time at a high-end audio dealer here in the Seattle area, plus going to CES for the past few years. All that experience, and I have been doing DIY for quite a while...I want to be impressed by high-dollar stuff, but I haven't found anything that is as pleasing to listen to as some of my favorite DIY designs. It's all about balance and smoothness and I just can't hear that in retail brands, no matter how much they cost. This is a good thing you're doing, though! Keep up the great work!

John A.

[kene]

> Umm... Tell me, unless it is over 20ft long
> how is an upgraded power cord going to
> better a stock 16/3 cord?

Ah, the generic invitation to get a high-ender to remark about differences s/he hears so someone can try and make counterarguments claiming they're crazy/elitist/pretending/whatever.

Okay I'll bite!

Well, the Cardas argument that makes the most sense to me is ground plane isolation. As we (should) all know, digital equipment has a nasty habit of feeding a lot of high-frequency noise back into power lines, which can get into other equipment and mess with the sound, straight-forward ground noise being the most obviously audible by-product. Cardas's claim is that his design increases the effective length that the HF noise sees going from one component to the next, such that the shortest path for any generated noise is simply to return to ground.

Really, I think that's a long-winded way of saying he manipulates the capacitances and inductances within his cables to cut-out HF propagation, like a lot of power conditioners already do except he accomplishes it solely within the conductor geometry, but now you can have one on each component which has some very real advantages. A power conditioner can help isolate your system from line-noise throughout the house, but these wires further help by isolating components from each other.

Cardas claims this has more relevance to digital equipment and solid-state amps, with less effect on tube equipment and record players. This all makes logical sense. It is also exactly what I heard in my AB-comparisons, and I heard it BEFORE I knew anything about Cardas's design claims. After I listened for myself, I actually watched my dealer go through the same set of listening observations (I didn't tell him anything of course, and he hadn't read any of the hype either). The result? 100% correlation between what he and I heard, 100% correlation between what we heard and the web-site hype.

[wingnut]

> Easy buddy... I know of a few teenagers on
> this board (including me). But i do agree,
> the only kids that even have a clue are
> those that actually listen and respect the
> music they listen to.

I said "most" ;)

You are absoulutely right, though. People who have an appreciation are usually involved in the music arts and/or regularly attend concerts, and/or are tinkerers, hobbyists, engineers. These are the people, IMHO, who have always been, and will continue to be the drivers for hi-fi source material, source equipment, and speakers.

[kene]

[scottanderson]

> That's NOT high end, but high crimes. Those
> high-end companies should do whatever they
> can to distance themselves from the
> vaporware like power cords, wooden block
> equipment isolators, and the little power
> poles to get your speaker wires off the
> floor.

Amen!

> One of the big problems is that magazines
> will take advertising dollars from any
> fly-by-night crackpot that will take a
> sucker's money for such nonsensical garbage.
> Those same magazines will also host
> respectable manufacturers, thereby equating
> the two, however undeserved. Then, there are
> the idiot reviewers who pile on the
> laughable adjectives in order to set
> themselves up as some golden-eared seer
> through whom the audio gods speak. Spare me
> the subjective crap and give me the
> measurements. Describing what you hear can
> only go so far, much as trying to describe
> the taste of a banana. Sweet, firm but soft,
> but beyond that, how can you tell that from
> a strawberry? Only by you sampling it can
> you know for yourself if you like it.

> There's way too much hyperbole in the
> high-end, too many English majors writing
> prose and not enough hard data from which
> you can then choose an audition or two.

I agree but data don't mean jack to average joe. A good write up with bad measurments can still make a flawed speaker sound good on paper. Still worse is the fact that less than complete measuments can make a otherwise good speaker appear bad. So you may be helped by the measuments but the average consumer is still deaf dumb and blind. Worse still is that some colorations can actually sound good at first listen. It's only after you live with the speakers for a while that you realise they are harsh in some way. I.E. The west coast sound...etc.

> My 2 cents anyway . . .

[AJ]

Your answear seems semi-logical :). Although, if my power cable is doing the filtering, why are thier filter caps in power supplys?

[bogie]

...the dang things will stand being yanked thousands of times. Never ONCE saw a medical person pull a cord by the cord-end...

[bogie]

Take a sine wave generator, and the umpty $$$$ amp, and play a tone. Capture that tone (picture, whatever...), then without changing/moving ANYTHING else, swap the cord (that 6' between the Romex and the amp must really, really matter...), and see if there's a difference.

[kene]

> Your answear seems semi-logical :).
> Although, if my power cable is doing the
> filtering, why are thier filter caps in
> power supplys?

It's just more and more filtering really. Older amps used to also use inductors to provide additional filtration. A lot of modern tube amps still do. For most casual listeners mass-market power supplies are satisfactory, but you have to remember that mass market power supplies will be designed in the interests of competitive advantage first and foremost, and will be far less concerned with (admittedly low-level) HF noise much of which will be hard for the casual listener to distinguish from the signal that's supposed to be there in the first-place. Even the so-called "Golden Ears" types aren't claiming to hear it as a separate waveform; they note it as the presence of grain or glare and more often than not are unaware as to the cause. But the addition of extra filtering can never be considered a bad thing to anyone that cares about sound quality any more than additional cabinet bracing in a well-designed speaker.

HF noise is additionally problematic in that it induces cross-talk over farther distances than low frequencies (it's the whole reason radio works after all). So even if your amp's power supply has 80 dB filtration at 10,000 Hz (numbers I've completely made up BTW, but it's important to understand that there's no such thing as infinite filtration), HF noise that makes it as far as the power cable can still cross over to the amp's internal circuitry in the same manner as interchannel cross-talk. That's my best explanation at least given my listening experience and trying to sort out how the Cardas design accomplishes it.

[kene]

> Take a sine wave generator, and the umpty
> $$$$ amp, and play a tone. Capture that tone
> (picture, whatever...), then without
> changing/moving ANYTHING else, swap the cord
> (that 6' between the Romex and the amp must
> really, really matter...), and see if
> there's a difference.

That's not a test you could do with a sine-wave generator. You'd probably need rapidly changing HF tones (you know, like in music) with rapid rise times and decays. There's also the good chance that the results would be difficult to see on a graph because the noise I'm talking about is probably several dozens of dB down. That's less than 1% of the main signal, reasonable for the ear since we aren't talking harminic distortion, but still something you'd have a hard time finding and isolating on a graph. I'm sure some sort measuring analysis could be generated but it's not something I have the equipment or time to do.

But I don't need such a measuring device; I heard exactly what the difference was before even knowing what it was supposed to be. My dealer made all the same observations without knowing anything beforehand about my observations or the company. He said as I was ordering the cable that he didn't hear much difference with it on his amp (which happened to be a tube amp). Kind of counter-productive for a dealer, don't you think? He tried it out later on one of his solid-state amps, was really surprised, and told me about how he just couldn't figure it out. That was when I told him about the purported theory behind the design.

[kene]

> Although, if my power cable is doing the
> filtering, why are thier filter caps in
> power supplys?

The power cable wouldn't be a perfect filter, it just helps somewhat. But hypothetically if your filter caps didn't have to filter they'd still be important in providing instantaneous power for large dynamic peaks.

[gotham]

> Amen!

> I agree but data don't mean jack to average
> joe. A good write up with bad measurments
> can still make a flawed speaker sound good
> on paper. Still worse is the fact that less
> than complete measuments can make a
> otherwise good speaker appear bad. So you
> may be helped by the measuments but the
> average consumer is still deaf dumb and
> blind. Worse still is that some colorations
> can actually sound good at first listen.
> It's only after you live with the speakers
> for a while that you realise they are harsh
> in some way. I.E. The west coast
> sound...etc.

haha so so true. you stole my words pal :)
good one