Sadly, it looks like spammers killed the Madisound

[bking]

...board. The new format is completely doo-doo in my opinion. I hope that the more knowledgeable posters migrate over here so we can keep getting innovative and informed ideas that might otherwise go away.

[howard]

> ...board. The new format is completely
> doo-doo in my opinion. I hope that the more
> knowledgeable posters migrate over here so
> we can keep getting innovative and informed
> ideas that might otherwise go away.
I agree. I can't seem to make heads or tails of what is going on over there. What a shame!

[Jeff B.]

> ...board. The new format is completely
> doo-doo in my opinion. I hope that the more
> knowledgeable posters migrate over here so
> we can keep getting innovative and informed
> ideas that might otherwise go away.

I migrated a while back when the board was down was a couple months. You're right, the new format isn't working.

There will probably never be another discussion board that will attain the level of knowledge that the Madisound board had a few years ago. There were a lot of really important developments that came from that time on the board. I saw several cottage speaker companies launch from there. There were discussions with people like S. Linkwitz, John Kreskovsky, Paul Verdone, Kristian Ougard, Ron Ennenga, Ken Kanter, and many others that laid the groundwork for some actual advancements in the way we design loudspeakers.

If that board had not been there when it was there would be no FRD Consortium and programs like PCD, BDS, FRC, and many others would not exist. These came about from the collaborations on that board and a decision made by several of us to use what knowledge we had to provide these tools for ourselves and for others for free, after all, it's a hobby, and we should do those kinds of things for each other within the community.

I am indebted to John Kreskovsky who taught me some new and interesting things about physics, speakers, etc. and to Paul Verdone who taught me a lot about programming Excel that I didn't know, and for hosting the FRD Consortium, but most of all I am indebted to all of the friends I made there. I hope many more of them will make the migration too.

If I am not mistaken the DIY 2000 crossover contest was the first time a large gathering was organized on one of these boards and look how many more have been happening since.

In some ways the Madisound board advanced speaker design for DIY'ers (and even for some manufacturers - with Ken Kanter spending quite a bit of time there too) than maybe even Henry Kloss and Ed Vilchur have. I am honored to have been a part of it during its peak.

And we are all indebted to Madisound for hosting it.

Jeff B.

[Jim Holtz]

> I agree. I can't seem to make heads or tails
> of what is going on over there. What a
> shame!

I can't say I'm fond of the software they chose either but it isn't hard to find and read new posts. Just click the read new option and only threads with new posts will show up.

I think the biggest problem is the forum was down for so long that everyone found other boards to go to. PE has certainly benefited from the Madisound down time. I'm with Jeff. I hope all of the really knowledgeable folks that used to post at Madisound either come back or migrate to another forum like PE's.

Jim

[dennismurphy]

Well said. I've tried to stick with the new format, but it doesn't seem to be worth the effort. Fortunately, there are many great contribtors on the PE board--it's come a long way since the intramural discussions of Dayton drivers.

[biff]

> ...board. The new format is completely
> doo-doo in my opinion. I hope that the more
> knowledgeable posters migrate over here so
> we can keep getting innovative and informed
> ideas that might otherwise go away.

Yeah, the new format stinks - my son, the computer whiz said he looked in on their host and they were getting their clocks cleaned on the hosting package. The new format does require less space than the old, but in spite of repeated attempts to let them know it was not the format and they needed to find a new provider they opted to go with this phone book format. I have tried all the viewing options, as I am sure all of us have, and found no improvement. Not to be unkind, but all of us who have websites, Email accounts and do business on the web face the same conditions they do it appears that someone there just doesn't care - it's shame as they seem like good folks with great products and knowledge.

[djarchow]

I have to agree with Jeff. The level of knowledge and discussion that was there a couple years back with SL, JohnK, Dennis M, Jeff B, Rick Craig and others was unparalleled. I learned as more from JohnK and others there than I did from books like Dickason and D'Appolito.

I have been visiting Madisound's online presence since way back in the days when they were just a BBS you had to dial into. Each day I check in there hoping that it will improve, but it hasn't and that is sad.

Dennis

[dancarroll]

While Jeff's observations are all very good, there was a dark side to the Mad board, which is why I rarely went there. While here at PE we have weird and bizarre flame wars over crazy things that are frequently not even audio related, newbies were not nurtured very much at Mad, and flame wars about rarefied technical issues occurred not infrequently. Mad was a good place for the experienced and well-trained, but not so much for shlubs like me with no technical engineering background who are just sort of trying to feel our way around this hobby.

> I migrated a while back when the board was
> down was a couple months. You're right, the
> new format isn't working.

> There will probably never be another
> discussion board that will attain the level
> of knowledge that the Madisound board had a
> few years ago. There were a lot of really
> important developments that came from that
> time on the board. I saw several cottage
> speaker companies launch from there. There
> were discussions with people like S.
> Linkwitz, John Kreskovsky, Paul Verdone,
> Kristian Ougard, Ron Ennenga, Ken Kanter,
> and many others that laid the groundwork for
> some actual advancements in the way we
> design loudspeakers.

> If that board had not been there when it was
> there would be no FRD Consortium and
> programs like PCD, BDS, FRC, and many others
> would not exist. These came about from the
> collaborations on that board and a decision
> made by several of us to use what knowledge
> we had to provide these tools for ourselves
> and for others for free, after all, it's a
> hobby, and we should do those kinds of
> things for each other within the community.

> I am indebted to John Kreskovsky who taught
> me some new and interesting things about
> physics, speakers, etc. and to Paul Verdone
> who taught me a lot about programming Excel
> that I didn't know, and for hosting the FRD
> Consortium, but most of all I am indebted to
> all of the friends I made there. I hope many
> more of them will make the migration too.

> If I am not mistaken the DIY 2000 crossover
> contest was the first time a large gathering
> was organized on one of these boards and
> look how many more have been happening
> since.

> In some ways the Madisound board advanced
> speaker design for DIY'ers (and even for
> some manufacturers - with Ken Kanter
> spending quite a bit of time there too) than
> maybe even Henry Kloss and Ed Vilchur have.
> I am honored to have been a part of it
> during its peak.

> And we are all indebted to Madisound for
> hosting it.

> Jeff B.

[waynew]

I couldn't agree with you more, Lefty. The Mad board was entertaining, but I found myself coming here far more often. Esoteric discussion is great, I enjoy a good debate, but pontification gets old very quickly. The lack of mentoring and nurturing of the newbies was disappointing. Many of the guys that frequented the Mad board could have been great teachers to those that are new to the hobby, unfortunately, they were more interested in showing the rest of us how intelligent they are.

[johnk]

I think the thing about the MAD board was that it was like Woodstock in that it was there at the right time when a group of very interested, highly motivated people just happen to come together. These people weren't just interested how to make a good speaker. They were interested in what makes a speaker good. It wasn't a politically correct board. It was a board which insisted on technical correctness. Not that what we heard wasn't the driving force, but if there wasn't some technically feasible expansion you'd better be ready to stand up for what you believed. Ideas were discussed, feeling were hurt, but ultimately the open discussion lead to better understanding within the DIY community and the development of tools to aid in the designs.

But as time went on, just as the 60's passed into the 70's, people moved on too. I'm sure many of the contributors to the early MAD board still lurk and post occasionally. I do, but the board lost its spark long before the spammers got to it. It is a shame that the new format isn't well received. I don't find anything wrong with it. But there just doesn't seem to be interest in posting there any more. I used to check in there every day. Now only once in a while. It used to be first on my list, now it's last.

[shawn_a]

> I couldn't agree with you more, Lefty. The
> Mad board was entertaining, but I found
> myself coming here far more often. Esoteric
> discussion is great, I enjoy a good debate,
> but pontification gets old very quickly. The
> lack of mentoring and nurturing of the
> newbies was disappointing. Many of the guys
> that frequented the Mad board could have
> been great teachers to those that are new to
> the hobby, unfortunately, they were more
> interested in showing the rest of us how
> intelligent they are.

If there's one thing I despise it's being talked down to. I've seen the dark side of MAD with my own eyes and honestly I feel some what sorry for the intelligencia that felt it was their sworn duty to beat it into everyone else's heads that they were so smart. Whoop de doo, Einstein. I used to read the Mad board quite a bit but after awhile it just got to the point where I was tired of the kind of snobbish attitudes some people displayed. Every forum has it's aura and that is cast by the people who contribute to it.

Knowledge is worth little if you can't disseminate it in a fashion the less-knowledgeable can understand or if you come across as being such a jerk that no one really cares to listen to you anyway. Sadly that was the vibe I frequently got from the Madisound board so I just staked my tent over here at PE. It's a nice place, the locals are friendly and the host is alright in my book. I've learned way more here than I ever would have from another forum simply because I like the people who make up the group. After all, this is my hobby and I really don't want to make something I consider as being a lot of fun being dragged into a quagmire of snobbery and uppity attitudes. That kind of stuff (and people) I can do without.

shawn

[dlr]

I think that you're right on the mark. What I have learned of the technical side would not have been available anywhere else. Even now, I don't know of a board even now where people go into the depth that was found at Madisound.

And as you, the Mad board is the last on my list on the days that I actually check it out.

dlr

[blair]

So Lonestar, I see your schwartz I mean brain is as big as mine!

;)

Blair

[Jeff B.]

> If there's one thing I despise it's being
> talked down to. I've seen the dark side of
> MAD with my own eyes and honestly I feel
> some what sorry for the intelligencia that
> felt it was their sworn duty to beat it into
> everyone else's heads that they were so
> smart. Whoop de doo, Einstein. I used to
> read the Mad board quite a bit but after
> awhile it just got to the point where I was
> tired of the kind of snobbish attitudes some
> people displayed. Every forum has it's aura
> and that is cast by the people who
> contribute to it.

> Knowledge is worth little if you can't
> disseminate it in a fashion the
> less-knowledgeable can understand or if you
> come across as being such a jerk that no one
> really cares to listen to you anyway. Sadly
> that was the vibe I frequently got from the
> Madisound board so I just staked my tent
> over here at PE. It's a nice place, the
> locals are friendly and the host is alright
> in my book. I've learned way more here than
> I ever would have from another forum simply
> because I like the people who make up the
> group. After all, this is my hobby and I
> really don't want to make something I
> consider as being a lot of fun being dragged
> into a quagmire of snobbery and uppity
> attitudes. That kind of stuff (and people) I
> can do without.

> shawn

It's odd how personal impressions go. I never saw the Mad board that way. I apologize if I was one of the snobbery. That was never intended, I doubt by anyone. To Dan's comment I would say that there were many newbies that received a lot of assistance there. I know because I tried to help many, as did several other regulars. My impressions of these two boards were quite different than many of you have. I posted on the Mad board for 10 years, however I lurked here for quite some time before getting involved because I always saw this board as a much more hostile environment, one that was controlled by a few individuals - most no longer participate. I guess it is all a matter of the personalities that you get used to.

See you tomorrow.

Jeff B.

[johnastockman]

...many years ago, and was where I got the link to PE and this great forum! I did find it a bit clinical, but I learned a bunch. I think I only posted one time, but read everything. I migrated here 'cause of the more informal, humorous folks & format.

John A.

[jmb]

I never found either board to be one made up of snobs or egotism. In any population group or in any given moment, we can all come off that way - sometimes by choice and sometimes inadvertinently. Even when there were snappy comments from those in the know, it generally felt like they still provided a solid base of information and guidance. Sometimes, one can love a topic so much that one can almost take offense at those who do not have the depth of knowledge. I am not excusing obnoxious responses but rather explaining it. I don't believe that I have ever had enough knowledge, myself, to come off that way in the loudspeaker arena, but there have been times in my field of specialty that I have been perceived differently than I meant to appear. I took those opportunities to do some self exploration. Just as some seem to have a greater innate skill in some areas, others may not have the same skill; this goes for the ability to understand loudspeaker design, to teach and explain loudspeaker design, and to do self-exploration and correction.

I am eternally indepted to all of the bulletin boards and all who have contributed countless hours in the pursuit of knowledge and of sharing knowledge. I can easily excuse and even understand the occasional "attitude" as it is extremely rare from the regular contributors and those who present that way consistently are generally chased away.

I stress, again, I don't believe that any one board has a monopoly of "attitude" or of knowledge and I hope that Madisound can rediscover it's place in the "field" of bulletin boards. I think that it serves everyone well.

Jay

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Wayne,

I really liked the MAD board and posted there much more than here. I came for knowledge rather than camaraderie and found the knowledge base extremely deep at MAD. That was 2001 when I 1st got into DIY. I've made many on line acquaintances on MAD and enjoyed the open sharing of knowledge from the "gurus" and never found them condescending. I've had personal emails from any number of the gurus offering help. I do appreciate that.

I rarely post anything that isn't speaker or audio related and avoid conversations about Iraq, religion, politics etc. like the plague. They are prevalent here but getting better. There's plenty of boards that one can have those conversation on if they want. These are my preferences but obviously not all agree. :-)

PE has evolved into an excellent place to get audio information with the posting of the many "gurus". I'm enjoying the board more since there are more audio discussions and less of the other kind.

My $.02 worth. :-)

Jim

> I couldn't agree with you more, Lefty. The
> Mad board was entertaining, but I found
> myself coming here far more often. Esoteric
> discussion is great, I enjoy a good debate,
> but pontification gets old very quickly. The
> lack of mentoring and nurturing of the
> newbies was disappointing. Many of the guys
> that frequented the Mad board could have
> been great teachers to those that are new to
> the hobby, unfortunately, they were more
> interested in showing the rest of us how
> intelligent they are.

[djjustice]

Thats why I got a speaker design book ;-)

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> ...board. The new format is completely
> doo-doo in my opinion. I hope that the more
> knowledgeable posters migrate over here so
> we can keep getting innovative and informed
> ideas that might otherwise go away.

I cut my teeth on the MAD board. I've been a customer of theirs for at least 25 years, maybe longer. I don't remember, but I may have bought my first Peerless tweeter from them as a replacement for my Fischer speakers. I don't know how long Madisound has been around, but it is a long time.

I participated a lot at the MAD board, mostly learning. I think I first started looking in around 2001. But after I came across this place, and saw how much more "fun" it was, this became stop number 1, MAD number 2. Then when it became obvious that the board was a nuisance to the Madisound folks by their lack of control of the spammers, I found it time to leave. I rarely even stop by anymore, other than to check on the great products they carry.

[dbe]

many different categories of exchange there a few years ago: intellectual, musical, technical, personal, accidental, mechanical, philosophical, spiritual, political, comical, homicidal; you know, just like most other aspects of life.

There were friendships and enemies made.

There was exhultation of ideas and knowledge like the FRD Consortium and condescention on an enormous scale.

All in all, I look back at the "Glory Daze" of the MadBored and think about all of the fun had by many of us old guys and wish that it hadn't devolved into just another corner of the world populated by closed minds and monumental egos. We have politics to cover that base.

It was a great run. I started on that BB when it was a 2400 baud dialup.

Everything dies.

R.I.P.

Silverback Dave

[shawn_a]

If anything I have to say you were one of the people I could read into pretty well and understand fairly easy. Turns out you are just like I thought you were and that's someone I really enjoy listening to and have learned quite a bit from. Perhaps I painted with a rather broad brush and for that I do apologize, however there were too many instances where the massive inferno-style flame fanning sessions that just got in the way of newbs, such as myself, from learning something of worth. The message got lost in the 'spirited conversation' at times and honestly that's not something I'm really into. To me it was like walking through a mine field at times. Granted, the same kind of stuff happens here but in here I'm pretty familiar now with how the regulars express themselves and it's easier to get a feel of their tone and demeanor. I never really got the feeling that the atmosphere of MAD was my cup of tea.

If anything I always got the strange feeling of things being taken TOO serious over there. As was said earlier in this thread, MAD was deep into learning more about the why than the how. Frankly, I'm not that serious about a pastime that is only a hobby to me. For others who want to dive into the deep end and really dig deep into the theory that's fine but anymore I just want to build speakers. If others enjoy them that's great but I just build them for my own enjoyment and, with a mountain's worth of gratitude to you personally, I think I've managed to create some speakers that have turned out better than I ever expected.

In the end, internet forums are like a smorgasboard; we take what we want and leave others to do the same. We sometimes end up with a lot of the same things on our plates but at least the variety is available for everybody to get something they really want. I just didn't get into the menu of MAD, so to speak. We can talk more about this later on today but for now I really need to get some sleep. I just felt like I should respond.

shawn

[Andy_G]

there was anyone to talk to !! ;-))

[Jeff B.]

> many different categories of exchange there
> a few years ago: intellectual, musical,
> technical, personal, accidental, mechanical,
> philosophical, spiritual, political,
> comical, homicidal; you know, just like most
> other aspects of life.

> There were friendships and enemies made.

> There was exhultation of ideas and knowledge
> like the FRD Consortium and condescention on
> an enormous scale.

> All in all, I look back at the "Glory
> Daze" of the MadBored and think about
> all of the fun had by many of us old guys
> and wish that it hadn't devolved into just
> another corner of the world populated by
> closed minds and monumental egos. We have
> politics to cover that base.

> It was a great run. I started on that BB
> when it was a 2400 baud dialup.

> Everything dies.

> R.I.P.

> Silverback Dave

And you Dave, were one of the great friends I met there. Give Gayle my love, and on my end the little drummer knows all the paradiddles now.
Jeff

[markk]

That was a well done post. I'd meant to respond earlier, but just didn't have the time.

I'm indebted to everyone there as well. It was a great learning experience. Sure, it was contentious at times-maybe a flaw, maybe not.

Although I'm indebted to MAD for hosting and having a very hands off policy, I think that there slowness in rapidly implimenting a similar board did put the nail in the coffin. The MAD board would occassionally go though nulls, a guru or two would complain about their anhedonia, then a discussion thread would start that invigorated everyone.

But the frictional drag caused by the prolonged forum dysfunction put a stop to the intellectual momentum. What was a body in motion is now at rest.

Most of us are around, and occasionally posting. And hopefully we're still working. I'm trying to still work on a couple projects in my meager free time.

Still, I miss the forum, the old forum.

[dbe]

> And you Dave, were one of the great friends
> I met there. Give Gayle my love, and on my
> end the little drummer knows all the
> paradiddles now.
> Jeff

paradiddles are what make Dave Weckl such a great drummer.

Same right back at you. Gayle asks me how you all are doing, often. Life is good, my brother.

Talk to you soon.

Dave