Experience with TB mini subs? Calling Wolf

[joecarrow]

Hi, I was looking for anyone with experience with the small neo subs from Tang Band, specifically the
W6-1139SI 6 1/2" and W8-1363SB 8".

Someone on HT Guide said that a fellow named Wolf had some experience with the TB subs, and I ought to ask for him.

I'm looking to put these into sort of a boom-box project, and their potentially small ported box with light weight drivers is very attractive. I'm looking for some "wow" factor from a lot of output in a portable package, but I'm skeptical how their sound quality stacks up. I recognize that they're probably only good to a few hundred hertz at best, but I'd be interested to know just how bad they get and how high I can take them.

I'm considering mating them the the Galaxy hot-spot neodymium pro driver, using a 41hz tripath amp and a custom battery pack. Obviously I'm not looking for the last word in high fidelity, but if it sounds like garbage it won't be worth spending the money. I'm open to the idea of two woofers per side, although at that point the boxes start to get a tad large and I have to wonder if I could do better with another driver entirely.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer some input.

Sincerely,
Joe Carrow

[Wolf]

> Hi, I was looking for anyone with experience
> with the small neo subs from Tang Band,
> specifically the
> W6-1139SI 6 1/2" and W8-1363SB 8".

I've used BOTH of those, and the little 5.25" as well.

> Someone on HT Guide said that a fellow named
> Wolf had some experience with the TB subs,
> and I ought to ask for him.

I suppose I do have a little. You found me!

> I'm looking to put these into sort of a
> boom-box project, and their potentially
> small ported box with light weight drivers
> is very attractive. I'm looking for some
> "wow" factor from a lot of output
> in a portable package, but I'm skeptical how
> their sound quality stacks up. I recognize
> that they're probably only good to a few
> hundred hertz at best, but I'd be interested
> to know just how bad they get and how high I
> can take them.

I know they can play to 200Hz, and sound okay, and the quality of sound is really nice. There is not much distortion. They are a little shy on sensitivity compared to larger subs, but that is negligible with the right amount of power. I'd use the 240W for the 1363, the 25W for the 1138, and the 70W for the 1139.

As for the "small-ported" boxes, you have to sacrifice a few things. Frequency where rolloff starts, and port diameter and corresponding length. I prefer them in OVERSIZED vented boxes, tuned really low for an EBS alignment. Respectful port diameters and tunings are 4"/17 Hz, 3"/18 Hz, and 2.5"/20 Hz. It's about 3.5 ft^3 for the 8 in this alignment. You could run the 1363 sealed in .5 ft^3, with +3dB at 23 Hz. You would have to change resistors for this one. I have not modelled the 1139 in a sealed/boost scenario. Personally, I have modelled all three of them with PRs, and the 10" 400g Peerless XLS is the bare minimum for the 1363, and that's a pair! You could also use a single Dayton DVC12 PR. For the 1139, I suppose the 10" SDVC PR (in a pair) may work, but the 8" will not. With the 1138, a pair of the Peerless 830880 5.25" PR's will work, and in a VERY small box as well. This one is probably your best bet. I would put the 1138's on the end, and the 4 PR's on the back side. You could go ported in about .4ft^3 each with the 1138 as well.

> I'm considering mating them the the Galaxy
> hot-spot neodymium pro driver, using a 41hz
> tripath amp and a custom battery pack.

Uhm- I think I would prefer the Point-Zero from Aaron on this forum, as I believe them to be far superior in construction. The Galaxy is an *okay* driver. If it were me, and I was doing your project, I would probably use the W4-1052SA Tang Band driver. It has 4mm Xmax, great top-end extension, and does midbass rather well. This will also better match the sensitivity level of the bass-end of your boombox. Oh yeah- run those sealed in their own chambers separate from the subs. I'd xover around 100 Hz for a ballpark figure.

> Obviously I'm not looking for the last word
> in high fidelity, but if it sounds like
> garbage it won't be worth spending the
> money. I'm open to the idea of two woofers
> per side, although at that point the boxes
> start to get a tad large and I have to
> wonder if I could do better with another
> driver entirely.

> Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer
> some input.

I hope I helped you!
Later,
Wolf

[envisionelec]

> Uhm- I think I would prefer the Point-Zero
> from Aaron on this forum, as I believe them
> to be far superior in construction.

Well, they certainly seem to last longer!! I don't know that I'd run the PZ off a battery pack though.

[Wolf]

> Well, they certainly seem to last longer!! I
> don't know that I'd run the PZ off a battery
> pack though.

...and a *sealed* deep-cycle/marine battery. I suppose that would work.
Later,
Wolf

[Max_Andrews]

I started with a podzuma project with two 5" woofers, see this link:
<A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/podzuma/index.html">http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/podzuma/index.html</A>
This sounded good but I wanted more bass.
So I tried building in an 8" DVD dayton subwoofer into a larger second enclosure. I was using a 7.2AH sealed lead acid 12V battery, and a car amplifier (the pyramid 2x60w amp). This ended up being a terrible idea because it needed a separate sub amp to actually work, the subwoofer output is really not at the same level of other components you'd use.
I'm now building a new one of these based on a year's worth of learning and reflecting, and I'm going to make it a three-way with the dayton RS225 8" woofers. Two of them in a portable (but not tiny) enclosure, 26"x15.5"x15.5" internal, will reach an F3 of 31Hz and an F10 of 23Hz, easily enough bass to appease.
I'm doing renderings of this now, will post a few conceopt drawings in a bit.

[cam]

I built 2 subs (6.5 inch) based of Romans design and was surprised at how deep and clean they sound. he says they go down to around the upper 30's region which should be plenty deep. If you're looking for a compact sub, you really can't go wrong with these little guys. I guess some people have had issues with the port noise but I haven't had a problem with it. as long as you have the gain set at a reasonable level you should be fine. I actually have been listening to these subs outside with my speakers enjoying the fine Ellensburg weather and people are shocked at how tiny they are and can't believe the bass they produce. pretty cool little subs. Here's Roman's design: <A HREF="http://www.rjbaudio.com/Cerberus/cerberus.html">http://www.rjbaudio.com/Cerberus/cerberus.html</A>

[donparsons]

Ellensburg in Central WA?

[Max_Andrews]

http://www.3dfightclub.com/~madmax/uploads/bassoptions.gif


Here's a few options to consider. Since I can afford the extra space of a slightly bigger enclosure, I like the electronics simplicity the RS225 version offers - low hassle punchy bass with ONE amp and a simple wiring scheme, rather than two amps and an inverter (which will both take up needed space).

[Max_Andrews]

http://www.3dfightclub.com/~madmax/uploads/morebass.gif


Two box size options for the RS225 and dayton DVC 8"

[joecarrow]

Thanks, Wolf, this is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for!

> I've used BOTH of those, and the little
> 5.25" as well.

> I suppose I do have a little. You found me!

> I know they can play to 200Hz, and sound
> okay, and the quality of sound is really
> nice. There is not much distortion. They are
> a little shy on sensitivity compared to
> larger subs, but that is negligible with the
> right amount of power. I'd use the 240W for
> the 1363, the 25W for the 1138, and the 70W
> for the 1139.

I'm glad to hear it- I'll do some simulations to see which combination of single or multiple drivers will give me the most sensitivity in a given volume. This is going to be a portable rig that I will potentially use for electronic drums, so extension below 40 hz is of minimal importance.

> As for the "small-ported" boxes,
> you have to sacrifice a few things.
> Frequency where rolloff starts, and port
> diameter and corresponding length. I prefer
> them in OVERSIZED vented boxes, tuned really
> low for an EBS alignment. Respectful port
> diameters and tunings are 4"/17 Hz,
> 3"/18 Hz, and 2.5"/20 Hz. It's
> about 3.5 ft^3 for the 8 in this alignment.
> You could run the 1363 sealed in .5 ft^3,
> with +3dB at 23 Hz. You would have to change
> resistors for this one. I have not modelled
> the 1139 in a sealed/boost scenario.
> Personally, I have modelled all three of
> them with PRs, and the 10" 400g
> Peerless XLS is the bare minimum for the
> 1363, and that's a pair! You could also use
> a single Dayton DVC12 PR. For the 1139, I
> suppose the 10" SDVC PR (in a pair) may
> work, but the 8" will not. With the
> 1138, a pair of the Peerless 830880
> 5.25" PR's will work, and in a VERY
> small box as well. This one is probably your
> best bet. I would put the 1138's on the end,
> and the 4 PR's on the back side. You could
> go ported in about .4ft^3 each with the 1138
> as well.

I certainly believe you when you say that oversized boxes will do amazing things. If I ever have the space for a large box, I'll probably just get larger and more expensive drivers, but I'll keep it in the back of my mind as well.

About passive radiators- I'll definitely look at those. I'm willing to spend what it takes on this project, but it sounds like it will add cost, mass, and potential for breakage. I'll look into that further.

> Uhm- I think I would prefer the Point-Zero
> from Aaron on this forum, as I believe them
> to be far superior in construction. The

Sorry, I haven't heard of the Point-Zero. Is that a driver? An amplifier? I'm about to search for it on the forum, but a little googling didn't get my anywhere.

> Galaxy is an *okay* driver. If it were me,
> and I was doing your project, I would
> probably use the W4-1052SA Tang Band driver.
> It has 4mm Xmax, great top-end extension,
> and does midbass rather well. This will also
> better match the sensitivity level of the
> bass-end of your boombox. Oh yeah- run those
> sealed in their own chambers separate from
> the subs. I'd xover around 100 Hz for a
> ballpark figure.

I'm thinking that an active crossover is definitely the way to go on this one! The Amp 9 project on 41 hz is a 4 ch x 60 watt number working off a single 12 to 24 volt supply. Even though I have the same wattage to play with for the low and high, it will save my battery somewhat anywhere I can conserve power. I'm definitely not set on the Galaxy, and will look at your recommendation in more detail as well. My main attraction to the Galaxy was its light weight, rugged construction, power handling, and sensitivity. This is a portable application, after all.

> I hope I helped you!
> Later,
> Wolf

Thanks, that was a big help! I'll make sure to come back here and post photos and whatever I can, as soon as I have something.

[joecarrow]

Sorry, Aaron, I don't know the Point-Zero. Is there anywhere I can find info on it?

Right now I'm considering using my 4.4 AH lithium ion pack (which presently has no use) for testing, and then potentially moving to two Group 22 SLA batteries.

My girlfriend's old wheelchair used two of these batteries, and it would actually give me a bit of peace of mind if I could keep an extra pair sitting around in a charged state. When she got her new chair we left the old one in a closet for so long that all of the cells dropped to essentially zero, and I don't have the equipment to rescue them. If she had a problem with her new chair today, her old one wouldn't be around to help.

In contrast to many folks, batteries are the one part of this project that won't give me a problem. I worked at a place that made a specialized battery tester for two years, and I worked at a startup designing ultra-light power wheelchairs and powered attachments for manual chairs. I will definitely be able to source my batteries and keep them safe and well cared for.

> Well, they certainly seem to last longer!! I
> don't know that I'd run the PZ off a battery
> pack though.

[joecarrow]

Thanks for the reply, Max.

I'd forgotten about the Podzuma, but it's definitely true to the spirit of what I'm going for. I too would want more bass, but my apartment is small enough as it is. I can't really afford to take 2 to 3 cubic feet; although you did just remind me that if I cross over as high as 200 to 300 hz, it shouldn't hurt me too much to mix the bass to mono and maybe just use a single sub.

> I started with a podzuma project with two
> 5" woofers, see this link:
>
> <A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/podzuma/index.html">http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/podzuma/index.html</A>
> This sounded good but I wanted more bass.
> So I tried building in an 8" DVD dayton
> subwoofer into a larger second enclosure. I
> was using a 7.2AH sealed lead acid 12V
> battery, and a car amplifier (the pyramid
> 2x60w amp). This ended up being a terrible
> idea because it needed a separate sub amp to
> actually work, the subwoofer output is
> really not at the same level of other
> components you'd use.
> I'm now building a new one of these based on
> a year's worth of learning and reflecting,
> and I'm going to make it a three-way with
> the dayton RS225 8" woofers. Two of
> them in a portable (but not tiny) enclosure,
> 26"x15.5"x15.5" internal,
> will reach an F3 of 31Hz and an F10 of 23Hz,
> easily enough bass to appease.
> I'm doing renderings of this now, will post
> a few conceopt drawings in a bit.

It sounds like a wicked rig!

[cam]

yep

[donparsons]

I was looking into getting a place in the Cle Elum, Roslyn, Ronald area. I knew prices were going to take off in the area and it is beautiful up there.

[cam]

Yeah they are! But you're right, it is nice there. But, yeah, i'm over in ellensburg just about to graduate from CWU. only a week!!! Do you currently live on the west side?

[envisionelec]

> Sorry, Aaron, I don't know the Point-Zero.
> Is there anywhere I can find info on it?

> Right now I'm considering using my 4.4 AH
> lithium ion pack (which presently has no
> use) for testing, and then potentially
> moving to two Group 22 SLA batteries.

> My girlfriend's old wheelchair used two of
> these batteries, and it would actually give
> me a bit of peace of mind if I could keep an
> extra pair sitting around in a charged
> state. When she got her new chair we left
> the old one in a closet for so long that all
> of the cells dropped to essentially zero,
> and I don't have the equipment to rescue
> them. If she had a problem with her new
> chair today, her old one wouldn't be around
> to help.

> In contrast to many folks, batteries are the
> one part of this project that won't give me
> a problem. I worked at a place that made a
> specialized battery tester for two years,
> and I worked at a startup designing
> ultra-light power wheelchairs and powered
> attachments for manual chairs. I will
> definitely be able to source my batteries
> and keep them safe and well cared for.

The Point Zero is a home audio amplifier which runs on +/-29V DC. It's available in kit or assembled form at <A HREF="http://www.ezamps.com">www.ezamps.com</A>

[donparsons]

Yes. I live in Santa Barbara. A friend's company is developing Suncadia and I knew it would be a huge draw to the area. I looked into getting a cabin close to the resort, but I got busy with a business venture and building some speakers. I think I missed the window of opportunity.

Opportunities are like buses. There'll be another one around the corner.

Best of luck with school.

[joecarrow]

> The Point Zero is a home audio amplifier
> which runs on +/-29V DC. It's available in
> kit or assembled form at <A HREF="http://www.ezamps.com">www.ezamps.com</A>

Thanks, Aaron. It looks like a nice amp, but not so great for a mobile application. I'd need four 12-volt batteries to even have a chance, and even then the Tripath amps are more efficient, giving better battery life and reducing heatsink requirements.