what is wrong with bose

[aztd]

seems like most you guy just hate them like they are the devil or something?

don't they have a place?

aren't some of them kinda like a TL?

didn't they ever make anything that was close to a HI FI

[paul_n_oneal]

> seems like most you guy just hate them like
> they are the devil or something?

> don't they have a place?

> aren't some of them kinda like a TL?

> didn't they ever make anything that was
> close to a HI FI

I think that their 301s sounded pretty decent in a small to mid size room if that helps out any. The little cute cubes just don't cut it with their proprietary setup. A speaker should be able to be plugged into any amp and sound the same IMHO.

Paul

[zach_t]

1.) Go listen for yourself.
2.) Make your own judgement.

Does Bose have it's place? Sure. Is the place on this forum? Probably not.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> seems like most you guy just hate them like
> they are the devil or something?

> don't they have a place?

> aren't some of them kinda like a TL?

> didn't they ever make anything that was
> close to a HI FI

I guess most here just find them to be far from something that can be considered accurate in any way. They charge WAY too much money. But they have to since they spend so much on advertising to dupe the public into thinking they're getting some sort of super technology, simply because there's some stupid patent on it. Some of the patents issued today are simply laughable, and any student of engineering can point out the offenders.

[chrish]

I will say this about bose, they are pretty clever being able to get the non-discerning listener to spend ludicrous amounts of money on speakers that are cleverly designed so as to use drivers and other components that makes theif manufacturing cost less than I dare to imagine, but I guess they have to come up with the ad money somewhere.

[hulan]

I've heard it said on this board a million times, "You can't cheat physics." It's great that they can make such smateeny tiny little cubes, but to charge over $1,000 for their systems is wrong. It's robbery. It's like if I only spent $80 to build somebody a surround system and charged them $1,500 for it. I can't speak for everyone, but I find it hard to like a company that robs the public in this way. I realize they have to pay for their ads, but come on! Advertizing can't tack THAT much on to the cost!

[kens]

> I guess most here just find them to be far
> from something that can be considered
> accurate in any way. They charge WAY too
> much money. But they have to since they
> spend so much on advertising to dupe the
> public into thinking they're getting some
> sort of super technology, simply because
> there's some stupid patent on it. Some of
> the patents issued today are simply
> laughable, and any student of engineering
> can point out the offenders.

i'll third that... they make wonderful products! its just the price. you get the performance of a Chrysler Town and Country in the looks of Mercedes Benz 2007 S500 as i would compare it. the only reason i bought my 161's was for looks and portability. my AM3 and mediamate was a gift.

[LeoF]

Provided Link: My web site... (http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/j/ljfrank/)


> seems like most you guy just hate them like
> they are the devil or something?

> don't they have a place?

> aren't some of them kinda like a TL?

> didn't they ever make anything that was
> close to a HI FI

In the early days (late 60's/early 70's), they were decent mid-Fi for the day. Their 901's and 501's (of which I still own a pair) were decent party speakers. The 501's even hit an honest 27 to 30 Hz. I know! Unbelievable for a Bose, but true. Since then, so many mid-Fi speakers have equaled or surpassed them, that they try to make the public believe they still have all these patented technologies that supposedly make them superior to everything else. All this did was make them overpriced. The only thing they seem to market nowadays is small speakers that seem to defy their size, such as the small satellite/subwoofer systems, which wouldn't be half bad at one-half to one-third the cost, but is not worth what they charge for it.

I think this is where people get tired of Bose. You could have so much more for half the price. While you will still find a few haters out there, many would probably leave them alone if they were $200 speakers, not $600-$2000 speakers. They would just say that you get what you pay for. But at $600 or more for an acoustimass speaker, it can't be said that you get what you pay for.

Their complete systems are the worst deals. Take the little wave radio. It wouldn't be bad at $250, but it's $500. Just a few years ago, the radio alone was $300, and you had to spend $500 or $600 just to add CD!!! Their larger wave systems might be okay at $400, but they cost over $1000!!! Their higher end home theater usually use their own proprietary processing that isn't even true Dolby Pro-logic, though perhaps they've gone Dolby Digital now (I don't know). But they always seem to have these systems for $2000 to $4000 dollars, and with that much money, you could do soooo much better. Spend $1000 on a top end Yamaha or a Denon, and have $1000 to $3000 left over for nice speakers and a TRUE subwoofer.

Well, I'm rambling now, but I hope you see why people bash them so much. It all boils down to value - are you getting what you paid for?

Cheers,
LeoF

Oh, and they're not TL, they are 4th order and 6th order bandpass which they've somehow patented (or at least pretend to have patented), even though they didn't invent it which is another thing that irks the people on this board.

[dennismurphy]

I think the original 901 was an interesting experiment, albeit founded on a faulty premise*, and wasn't overpriced considering the price of competitive speakers at that time. And I have no problem with them charging what they do for the wave guide radio, because it meets a legitimate need (super small, elegant package with decent if not great sound for a kitchen or den). It's the current line of home speakers that seem to be bad buys. Still, even though we might think they sound like crap, Bose must have a lot of satisfied customers. In case you hadn't noticed, we board members are a little strange. We're way more into sound than the American heartland.

*Dr. Bose's theory was that, since live sound in a real hall is mostly reflected sound, home speakers should also reflect sound at every opportunity. The problem with the theory is that the sound that gets reflected in halls is direct sound, while the sound that gets reflected in your living room is the mic mix, which includes reflected sound. So you're reflecting reflections. That can sound cool, but not necessarily accurate in any meaningful sense.

[kens]

> Oh, and they're not TL, they are 4th order
> and 6th order bandpass which they've somehow
> patented (or at least pretend to have
> patented), even though they didn't invent it
> which is another thing that irks the people
> on this board.

by TL as in the original post, i assume it meant Transmission Line. may i ask how, if referring to, the current Acoustimass design isnt a transmission line?

and the current LIFESTYLE acoustimasses are 4th/6th order bandpasses right? how does it look inside??? im so stumped. every time i go to cc or bb im surprised at how much smaller it is than the Acoustimass 16 module.

[kens]

So you're reflecting
> reflections. That can sound cool, but not
> necessarily accurate in any meaningful
> sense.

thats what im thinking... i suppose bob and joe never questioned that... which is why i suppose they can continue to deceive. but im still waiting for my first audition of the 901.

[curt_c]

> but im still waiting for my first audition of the 901.

They needed lots of power but could play surprising loud for a bunch of little speakers. I like them best however, when the 8 speakers were aimed at you. This of course, is the opposite of their intended function... ;^)

I'm afraid when you do finally audition them, they will be anticlimatic...

C

[daryl]

Provided Link: Daryl's Speaker Stuff. (http://www.villagephotos.com/pubgallery.asp?id_=144711)


> They needed lots of power but could play
> surprising loud for a bunch of little
> speakers. I like them best however, when the
> 8 speakers were aimed at you. This of
> course, is the opposite of their intended
> function... ;^)

The Bose 801 pro speakers look like the 901's but have 8 drivers facing forward and none on the back.

[Max_Andrews]

But for the price it's a total ripoff. The wave radio is I think the only bose product to do anything useful with small drivers, employing a folded waveguide to imporessively boost bass output from the 3" drivers it uses. It also plays pretty loud for it's small size. But at $450, it's about $200 too expensive for a section of folded plastic piping, a cheap CD player, and two 3" woofers.
Granted, bose stuff typically sounds better than all the other crap in big stores like best buy, but it's also three times as expensive.
Because Bose is a high volume producer, this stuff does not cost them hardly anything to make. These are not hand made small quantity products that demand a premium, they are made the same way at the same cost as all the other junk on the shelves in best buy and rat shack.

[savantstrike]

Best buy has some half decent products on the shelf..

One word.. Klipsch

I maintain that if the Quintets where hooked up, nobody would bother with those stupid lifestyles, etc.

2 way sattelites BEAT DOWN the Bose offerings...

Though my BB was re arranged and I'm not sure they have the Quintets on display anymore.

There are also some fairly nice JBL's there, though JBL isn't what it used to be (from what I hear), and in my experience, I like Klipsch stuff better than JBL stuff... this may be apples to oranges though as some old school JBL stuff (or the higher end current JBL stuff) would be a tempting choice...

Circuit city also sells Polk. Not bad either (actually its pretty nice.. I like polk stuff, its pretty neutral sounding).

I still love my Klipsch stuff from BB, though now I think the horns are a bit harsh sometimes (but hey, they're HORNS).

Maybe I'm a fanboy though...

And I digress. No matter which way you cut it, Bose stuff is PRICEY for what it is. What do they make that is TL though??

> But for the price it's a total ripoff. The
> wave radio is I think the only bose product
> to do anything useful with small drivers,
> employing a folded waveguide to
> imporessively boost bass output from the
> 3" drivers it uses. It also plays
> pretty loud for it's small size. But at
> $450, it's about $200 too expensive for a
> section of folded plastic piping, a cheap CD
> player, and two 3" woofers.
> Granted, bose stuff typically sounds better
> than all the other crap in big stores like
> best buy, but it's also three times as
> expensive.
> Because Bose is a high volume producer, this
> stuff does not cost them hardly anything to
> make. These are not hand made small quantity
> products that demand a premium, they are
> made the same way at the same cost as all
> the other junk on the shelves in best buy
> and rat shack.

[kens]

[aricaudio]

[JRT]

[aduncan]

Her brother is a Bose owner and she was also interested in a getting a small set since she doesn't like having speakers you can see. I took her over to Circuit City and we sampled a lot of bookshelf speakers, including Bose. She picked a pair of Pioneer's for $100 instead. They just sounded better.

[daryl]

[jims]

I have a couple of family members with the wave radio/cd, so I've actually had a chance to listen to it with different types of music, different volume levels, and so forth.

I would agree with others that say that is sounds surprisingly good, and plays surprisingly loud, for its size. It's really not bad.

However, I would prefer to own something that sounds great, without qualifiers like "for its size" or "for what it is." Being surprised that something sounds decent, for its size, wears off pretty quickly. Especially when you paid that much for it.

Issues with other Bose products go back a long way. One of my college friends in 1987 got a pair of their lower end "stereo everywhere" 2-way speakers. They still had paper cone tweeters after EVERY other "quality" manufacturer had gone to domes of various kinds. They sounded completely dead compared to my Genesis speakers, which cost about the same ($200-ish per pair). By the way "stero everywhere" meant that the woofer fired forward while the tweeter was angled in toward the center of the room.

Around the same time, the original Acoustimass system came out, whose satelites had the two small cubes that could swivel. I think it was priced well over $700. I listened to it in comparison to an Advent speaker that was around $400 per pair. (At that time some independent hi-fi shops still carried Bose products). I was blown away by how bad it sounded in comparison to the Advents. The treble was harsh, and the satelites sounded disconnected from the sub. It's interesting to me that Bose hasn't improved this product in the 20 years since.

Jim S.

[brianp]

Nobody in the audio press will even review their products, since some years back they sued Consumer Reports for publishing a negative review.

They threatened to sue Cambridge Sound Works for daring to advertise a compact speaker system as a "Bose-buster." They sometimes threaten other manufacturers whose model names/numbers might even be remotely construed as resembling those of Bose models.

They take technologies that have been in the public domain for decades, put their own little twist on them, and slap patents on them which they enforce aggressively. Their "waveguide" table radio, clever as it might be, is really nothing but a small transmission line. Their little PA columns (which actually work quite nicely) are just equalized line arrays on top of a woofer box. And nobody can market a 6th order bandpass subwoofer anymore, for fear of litigation.

[biff]

> Nobody in the audio press will even review
> their products, since some years back they
> sued Consumer Reports for publishing a
> negative review.

> They threatened to sue Cambridge Sound Works
> for daring to advertise a compact speaker
> system as a "Bose-buster." They
> sometimes threaten other manufacturers whose
> model names/numbers might even be remotely
> construed as resembling those of Bose
> models.

> They take technologies that have been in the
> public domain for decades, put their own
> little twist on them, and slap patents on
> them which they enforce aggressively. Their
> "waveguide" table radio, clever as
> it might be, is really nothing but a small
> transmission line. Their little PA columns
> (which actually work quite nicely) are just
> equalized line arrays on top of a woofer
> box. And nobody can market a 6th order
> bandpass subwoofer anymore, for fear of
> litigation.

I own a pair of Thiel 2.2s, which Thiel can no longer call 2.2s, just 2 2s - hmmmm, I wondered why Tucker Carlson quit wearing that tie....., probably too close for Amar's comfort. I guess this year I'll be wrapping with ribbons and "fancy knots!".

[LeoF]

Provided Link: My web site... (http://bellsouthpwp.net/l/j/ljfrank/)


> by TL as in the original post, i assume it
> meant Transmission Line. may i ask how, if
> referring to, the current Acoustimass design
> isnt a transmission line?

> and the current LIFESTYLE acoustimasses are
> 4th/6th order bandpasses right? how does it
> look inside??? im so stumped. every time i
> go to cc or bb im surprised at how much
> smaller it is than the Acoustimass 16
> module.

TL = Transmission line.

I was thinking that Bose played with both a sealed box rear chamber bandpass (4th order response IIRC) and a vented rear chamber bandpass (6th order IIRC), but perhaps it's only the latter. They have a vented chamber in front of the driver, and a vented chamber to the rear of the driver. Picture a box with a divider. The woofer is mounted on the divider. The space on either side is vented to the outside like a typical vented enclosure. Some of their latest "wave guide" technology seems to treat the box and vent as a hollow tube rather than an enclosure with a vent. Perhaps their wave guides could be considered a TL? Of course a typical TL has the woofer mounted on one end, and is open on the other, but Bose seems to have moved the driver about a third of the way into the "pipe." So would this be a transmission line on each side of the woofer, or an open (vented) box on each side of the woofer? I'm not sure how to consider it, but the original acoustimass was basically a vented rear chamber bandpass. Perhaps someone with a better electrical background could clarify this further. Hope this helps.

Cheers,
LeoF

[dennymo]

Provided Link: http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html


Here's a a link to a pretty extensive assessment of what's wrong with Bose and what you get for your Bose dollars vs. what you *could* get for your Klipsch/Polk/Paradigm/etc. dollars.

[rory]

> I've heard it said on this board a million
> times, "You can't cheat physics."
> It's great that they can make such smateeny
> tiny little cubes, but to charge over $1,000
> for their systems is wrong. It's robbery.
> It's like if I only spent $80 to build
> somebody a surround system and charged them
> $1,500 for it. I can't speak for everyone,
> but I find it hard to like a company that
> robs the public in this way. I realize they
> have to pay for their ads, but come on!
> Advertizing can't tack THAT much on to the
> cost!

These days, their Lifestyle systems have more value-added features than they used to, so I feel like they aren't as 'overpriced' as they used to be. The most notable addition is the "uMusic" built-in hard drive based music storage, and a system which uses AMG keywords to organize the music based on things like the 'mood' of the music, and then the system can automatically play other tracks that are like the one that just played. I haven't ever had a chance to play with the system, but that's because I haven't had a spare $1500-$3500 to spend on a uMusic-equipped Lifestyle or 3-2-1 GS system that I might not like anyway. I have, however, had a chance to mess with the "AdaptIQ" room calibration system, and it makes a big difference in the tightness of the bass, and the balance and delay of each individual speaker. I think to call their Lifestyle systems 'overpriced' isn't completely fair, given the amount of newer "intelligent" features that they've been able to add, which no other HTIB system really has (with the exception, perhaps, of room correction). It seems to me like Bose really focuses on the overall user experience -- the system is completely integrated, and the amount of complexity that the system's user sees is really only about as much as the average DVD player. I wouldn't buy a Bose system just for its sound, though. I don't mean to be a fanboy of Bose -- the only Bose product I own is a pair of MediaMate PC speakers -- but I don't think they're quite the despicable company they're made out to be by many audiophiles.

[rory]

> Cheers,
> LeoF

> Oh, and they're not TL, they are 4th order
> and 6th order bandpass which they've somehow
> patented (or at least pretend to have
> patented), even though they didn't invent it
> which is another thing that irks the people
> on this board.

This is false -- the newer Acoustimass modules in their Acoustimass multichannel speaker systems use high-excursion drivers in a Daline enclosure (which Augspurger is credited with), which is essentially a transmission line enclosure with a larger decoupling chamber before it (about the size of an optimal sealed box for the drivers in question). For a while, the Lifestyle systems used a similar configuration, but with front-firing drivers (see the Acoustimass modules with full-face grilles). Today, the Lifestyle systems use a module that's 35% smaller than the Daline-style ones, and to the best of my reckoning, it's essentially another triple-chamber bandpass enclosure, with one side of the driver being loaded by a bass reflex chamber, and the other side of the driver being loaded by what is essentially a textbook double-chamber bass reflex system. The volume levels that these newer systems are demonstrated at in stores is significantly higher than before, and it's enough to drive the Acoustimass module into Wubba-Wubba World. I was more of a fan of the Daline-style Acoustimass modules, but I think these newer ones get by with a single 5.25" woofer, where the older ones used two.

One interesting tidbit about the Lifestyle systems - they can undergo a firmware update simply by loading a Bose disc into the DVD drive, allowing Bose to tweak things like DSP settings and EQ. With the previous generation of Lifestyle systems, this technique was used to boost the overall level of the Acoustimass module. Another interesting tidbit is that the Lifestyle systems have built-in automatic limiting that compresses the signal if it's too much for the speakers to handle without losing their composure.

[rory]

> TL = Transmission line.

> I was thinking that Bose played with both a
> sealed box rear chamber bandpass (4th order
> response IIRC) and a vented rear chamber
> bandpass (6th order IIRC), but perhaps it's
> only the latter. They have a vented chamber
> in front of the driver, and a vented chamber
> to the rear of the driver. Picture a box
> with a divider. The woofer is mounted on the
> divider. The space on either side is vented
> to the outside like a typical vented
> enclosure. Some of their latest "wave
> guide" technology seems to treat the
> box and vent as a hollow tube rather than an
> enclosure with a vent. Perhaps their wave
> guides could be considered a TL? Of course a
> typical TL has the woofer mounted on one
> end, and is open on the other, but Bose
> seems to have moved the driver about a third
> of the way into the "pipe." So
> would this be a transmission line on each
> side of the woofer, or an open (vented) box
> on each side of the woofer? I'm not sure how
> to consider it, but the original acoustimass
> was basically a vented rear chamber
> bandpass. Perhaps someone with a better
> electrical background could clarify this
> further. Hope this helps.

> Cheers,
> LeoF

The Acoustimass modules with the big round hole on the front are actually 8th-order bandpass designs. Imagine a 6th-order bandpass where the vents from both chambers empty into a third, larger chamber at the front of the enclosure that's tuned between the tuning frequencies of the two rear chambers. The additional acoustic bandpass filter further narrows the filter slope at either end of the passband, creating a system that is even more efficient over its limited range (though with degraded transient response). With drivers larger than 6.5", 8th-order Bandpass designs begin to be the size of a small refrigerator. It's just an early example of the many ways through the years that Bose has attempted to use large amounts of resonant energy to augment the bass performance of tiny drivers.

[rory]

> Nobody in the audio press will even review
> their products, since some years back they
> sued Consumer Reports for publishing a
> negative review.

> They threatened to sue Cambridge Sound Works
> for daring to advertise a compact speaker
> system as a "Bose-buster." They
> sometimes threaten other manufacturers whose
> model names/numbers might even be remotely
> construed as resembling those of Bose
> models.

> They take technologies that have been in the
> public domain for decades, put their own
> little twist on them, and slap patents on
> them which they enforce aggressively. Their
> "waveguide" table radio, clever as
> it might be, is really nothing but a small
> transmission line. Their little PA columns
> (which actually work quite nicely) are just
> equalized line arrays on top of a woofer
> box. And nobody can market a 6th order
> bandpass subwoofer anymore, for fear of
> litigation.

Actually, the Mackie SRS1501, SWA1501, and SWA1801 subwoofers are a 6th-order bandpass design. There are also 6th-order bandpass designs from companies like FBT and DB Technologies (both Italian pro sound manufacturers) and KV^2 Audio (Czech, I think) that are 6th-order bandpass. They seem to be popular among companies that also market lightweight plastic powered systems. I had several chances to work with some FBT MaxX10SA subwoofers, which were a 6th-order bandpass design. 6th-order bandpass subwoofers work well as concert subs, where their poorer transient response is more tolerable.

[johnastockman]

> i'll third that... they make wonderful
> products! its just the price. you get the
> performance of a Chrysler Town and Country
> in the looks of Mercedes Benz 2007 S500 as i
> would compare it. the only reason i bought
> my 161's was for looks and portability. my
> AM3 and mediamate was a gift.

Wonderful products, just the price? That's a joke, right? ;>) More like you get the performance of a Yugo in a nice, pretty package! I won't go into my experience level with this company and their poor products as I have done so too many times...granted, this is only my experience. If you have a different one, spend your money on bose. I have had just about every bose speaker made in the past 25 years here at my house for listening purposes...well, to actually compare to DIY projects. Mainly because folks just don't believe me when I explain about bose and their speakers; I have to prove it to them with a short listening session. You know the results...as such, I just can't resist any of these bose oriented posts. Always have to shoot my mouth (keyboard) off.

John A.

[johnastockman]

> Nobody in the audio press will even review
> their products, since some years back they
> sued Consumer Reports for publishing a
> negative review.

> They threatened to sue Cambridge Sound Works
> for daring to advertise a compact speaker
> system as a "Bose-buster." They
> sometimes threaten other manufacturers whose
> model names/numbers might even be remotely
> construed as resembling those of Bose
> models.

> They take technologies that have been in the
> public domain for decades, put their own
> little twist on them, and slap patents on
> them which they enforce aggressively. Their
> "waveguide" table radio, clever as
> it might be, is really nothing but a small
> transmission line. Their little PA columns
> (which actually work quite nicely) are just
> equalized line arrays on top of a woofer
> box. And nobody can market a 6th order
> bandpass subwoofer anymore, for fear of
> litigation.

You would not believe the hoops our store would've had to jump through to add bose to the line-up...separate listening room just for bose, a "control room" for some electronics (that the retail customer was not to know about), no direct A/B comparisons with any other brand, and on & on. The owner was dumbfounded at the special contracts he had to sign and the aforementioned conditions...no other manufacturer that we carried had anything resembling that mountain of tripe. Besides, our technician actually measured some of the speakers...didn't even come close to our "low-end" house-brand cheapies, which listening tests confirmed.

John A.