Cables

[markkielbasa]

What is the difference between an Instrument cord 1/4" to 1/4" and a Guitar cord with the same ends?
My intensions are to put my keyboard through my P.A. Mixer. But I was told without the proper cord or cable I can damage both the keyboard and the Mixer. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanx, Mark

[Paul O]

> What is the difference between an Instrument
> cord 1/4" to 1/4" and a Guitar
> cord with the same ends?
Nothing. A salesperson is yanking your cord in a possible attempt to get you to buy some expensive cable. Just be sure you plug the keyboard into a line-in on the mixer and not a mic/instrument input.

[Andy_G]

Its to do with the flexibility of the cord, and the restraints at the ends.

Guitar cords need to be very firmly terminated and flexible.

But yep, Mark, if the guy is trying to sell you a more expensive cord for a non moving instrument, its a money thing !! ;-)

Unless your instrument actually uses balance TRS output. Then you should use a TRS cable if you can. Gives less chance of random hums and RF nise.

[Andy_G]

I always try to run keys etc through a DI, rather than direct through line in !

Its a control thing, I guess !!

[billfitzmaurice]

> Its to do with the flexibility of the cord,
> and the restraints at the ends.

There's no set rule as to either the flexibility of the cord or the configuration of the plugs. However, high-impedance guitar and bass pickups are far more susceptible to both shielding and capacitance issues than low impedance output electronic keyboards. This doesn't mean that you need to spend more than a dollar a foot on cable for guitar, just that you can get away with a much lower grade cable for keyboards.

[Paul O]

Good points Andy. I was thinking strictly in terms of the electrical connection when I first responded. Indeed, I will pay more for a more robust cable.

[Andy_G]

Sure, there are no set rules.. but any decent guitar lead will be nice and flexible and will have constrcution tha helps avoid creasing at the guitar end.

I also much prefer keyboard leads that have a right angle plug at the keyboard end. It just helps avoid "bump" or "tread on" problems.

[paulv]

There is a tremendous difference in the quality of MI cables.

A 20 ft. $10 Hosa will sound completely constipated next to a $20 home-made quality cable. Here's all you need: Canare Star Quad cable (about 75 cents a foot or less almost everywhere) terminated with G&H 1/4" plugs (straight &/or right-angle; ypour choice). It can (with the proper termination) accomodate TRS & XLR applications as well.

This cable is extremely flexible and durable. It also rolls-up very nicely. The Quad Star construction essentially eliminates all types of spurious electrical & magnetic noise. It also passes the signal with little to no coloration despite its higher than usual capacitance spec's. The "true" low end is spectacular along with smooth mids and an airy top end. I've been desigining & using systems for over 35 years and the Canare Star Quad & G&H components are the BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK I've come across. Using silver solder & shrink wrap is recommended.

BTW: it's one of the few HQ cables that is equally as popular as studio interconnects as it is on stage as an instrument cable.

You could spend $100 on a Monster, Klotz or Zoalla inst. cable but you's be wasting your money.

For live perfomance, sound-wise and durability-wise, you cannot do currently do better than the Canare Star Quad/G&H cables.

Paul V.

> Good points Andy. I was thinking strictly in
> terms of the electrical connection when I
> first responded. Indeed, I will pay more for
> a more robust cable.

[mikebw]

I'm sure most people here know this, but I still find people who don't understand-

There IS a BIG difference between the 1/4" instrument/guitar cables and 1/4" speaker cables.

Yes, the connectors might be the same, and yes the instrument cable will technically work but an instrument cable is NOT designed to carry high current (amplified) speaker signals. They are made with smaller gauge wire that is not suitable for high power applications.

Real speaker cables will be made with a much thicker gauge multi-strand wire, two separate strands run in parallel to each other. A good cable will have a separate outer jacket independent of the inner two. An even better cable will not be 1/4" at all, but Speakon.

It's easy to tell one from the other if you just open up the 1/4" connector. A instrument cable will have an inner conductor surrounded by an insulator, and the other wire will be wrapped around this forming a shield. A speaker is just a set of parallel wires, no shielding.

[Paul O]

> There is a tremendous difference in the quality of MI cables. A 20 ft. $10 Hosa will sound completely constipated next to a $20 home-made quality cable.

Well OK.. but does this relatively small SQ difference really matter when you are connecting a guitar to a rack of effects pedals on the floor, where the cable will be yanked and stomped on and soaked in all sorts of fluids? In this case the structural integrity of a cable with sealed connectors is far more important... IMO.

[paulv]

I only have 35+ years of professional “real world” stage performance and technical experience to back up my observations but I'll try to address your questions.

First of all: the shrink wrap I suggest covers (n.p.i.) the "sealed connectors" issue.

The primary role of a MI cable in a live performance situation is noise free transmission of all the frequencies presented & RELIABILITY. BTW: The most common physical ‘destroyer’ of cables is improper coiling, using the common "around the elbow & hand" method.

The cables I recommended are time tested & performance proven. I've had Canare SQ/G&H cables in constant service for years on everything from pristine concert stages to rain & mud soaked open air stages without a single noise, fidelity or failure issue. As for ruggedness & reliability, they destroy the former industry chestnuts; Belden 8410 & 8412.

A 20’ Canare SQ/G&H home brew cable can be made for about $20. The difference in sound compared to most $40 (street priced)mass-manufactured cables is very noticeable with the Canare having better dynamics, lower handling noise and extended fidelity.

Handling noise is something that is almost always overlooked in MI cables. Run a guitar or KBD into an amp with a cheap cable and rustle the cable. Hear that crackling sound? That doesn't happen with the SQ cable.

While I’m “rating” MI cables, Monster products are the “Bose” of the cable world. They have their dedicated fans but I find them to be WAY overpriced and extreme under-performers. Klotz & Zaolla are magnificent but pricey (both originate in Europe). The Van DeHull, Evidence Audio, Cardas & Kimber MI cables are blatant overkill and are prohibitively expensive for the working musician. They're the “snake oil” cables of the MI world. They’d be “price compatible” as a connecting cable in a photo of a pristine ’59 LP Burst connected to a ’58 High Powered Twin, but offer no other advantages other than snob appeal. Please remember that I’m approaching this from a real-world professional performance standpoint.

I'm just passing on what all the pro's know: you can build SUPER HIGH QUALITY, RUGGED & RELIABLE CABLES for a lot less than the manufacturers charge.

As an additional comment within the text of your pedal board observation: If you're using more than 2 floor based FX without signal buffering between the instrument & amp, then use any cable you wish. Other than reliability, the cable's superior sonics won't be noticeable due to impedance loading.

Also, I always wonder why folks buy a $2000+ guitar or keyboard and a $3000 HQ amplification system and connect them with a $10 cable. It's akin to buying a high end ($5K) CD player and connecting it to Krell electronics using the RCA cable that came with a Radio Shack cassette deck.

Of course my last comments are merely educational as the original post addresses a cable for a KBD. Electronic keyboards' frequency and dynamic ranges trump those of the electric guitar. Again, the quiet transmission of all frequencies and reliability are the major prerequisites in this case.

I mean: Why go perform with any product that is not optimally suited to the task?

> Well OK.. but does this relatively small SQ
> difference really matter when you are
> connecting a guitar to a rack of effects
> pedals on the floor, where the cable will be
> yanked and stomped on and soaked in all
> sorts of fluids? In this case the structural
> integrity of a cable with sealed connectors
> is far more important... IMO.

[Paul O]

I'm with you 100%. I DIY everything I can because I know I can do it better than what those $$ can buy over the counter. Not everybody has the skill and knowledge to pull that off, however. So my point was simply to say that sometimes, for some applications, DIY may not be the most efficient use of one's time and budget.

[unknownuser]

...and any musical instrument cable will work for keyboards or guitar. The main differences IME, are the quality of the jacket, which protects the wire from stretching and stepping-on, and the quality of the connector.

I've had expensive cables that have had static and short-circuit problems from the get-go, becasue of a badly designed wire termination and connector. Monster are notoriously bad. The ones from Dayton here are good and really tough, but the ProCo are cheaper and probably OK.

<A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=241-328">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=241-328</A>


(Originally posted by: BFB)

[paulv]

Thanks for your support Paul.

But we should encourage others to try, right? Isn't that one of the primary tenants of this forum? Those are just general rhetorical questions.(:

Acquiring the skills needed for making MI cables crosses over to making hi-fi interconnects and basic servicing skills. It's also a great place to develop & refine soldering skills as there are no board level components to destroy in the process. If you screw-up the cable, simply clean the plugs of the old solder, re-strip the cable & try again.

I freely admit that my first DIY cables (30+ years ago) sucked supremely. But, what I learned from my early mistakes (it's ALL in the craftsmanship) has saved me thousands of $$ over the years, even when factoring in my time.

And you know what? I COMPLETELY omitted the ABSOLUTE best piece of advice I could have given. No matter which cable is chosen: ALWAYS buy (or make)and carry along two extras for backup.

> I'm with you 100%. I DIY everything I can
> because I know I can do it better than what
> those $$ can buy over the counter. Not
> everybody has the skill and knowledge to
> pull that off, however. So my point was
> simply to say that sometimes, for some
> applications, DIY may not be the most
> efficient use of one's time and budget.

[unknownuser]

Always beware of the budget line of the brand preferred by the pros:

<A HREF="http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mogami-Silver-Series-14-Straight-Instrument-Cable?sku=339028">http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mogami-Silver-Series-14-Straight-Instrument-Cable?sku=339028</A>


(Originally posted by: BFB)

[paulv]

Other (just as or more) important factors in selecting a MI cable are:

A 95%-100% coverage braided shield as opposed to any % coverage in a spiral shield;

The dielectric properties of the internal wire insulators and;

A high strand count in the signal conductors.

The outer casing of the cables should be thick, flexible & solvent resistant. Who cares if it's pliable to -20 degrees F. [Hopefully] Nobody gigs in temps like that(:.

I also personally believe that using a cotton braided covering over the outer casing of the cable (think: Spectraf*ex) is just a cheap way to make $$$ and it serves no productive purpose other than cosmetic. Try to clean one after a messy gig & you'll see what I mean.

I agree 1000% with your termination & connector quality views. Folks, stick with Switchcraft, G&H or Dayton 280 style connectors and you'll be very happy. Avoid Neutriks. They're pretty shells that are just waiting to fall apart.

> ...and any musical instrument cable will
> work for keyboards or guitar. The main
> differences IME, are the quality of the
> jacket, which protects the wire from
> stretching and stepping-on, and the quality
> of the connector.

> I've had expensive cables that have had
> static and short-circuit problems from the
> get-go, becasue of a badly designed wire
> termination and connector. Monster are
> notoriously bad. The ones from Dayton here
> are good and really tough, but the ProCo are
> cheaper and probably OK.

>
> <A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=241-328">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=241-328</A>

[paulv]

A perfect case in point: It uses Neutrik connectors.

> Always beware of the budget line of the
> brand preferred by the pros:

>
> <A HREF="http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mogami-Silver-Series-14-Straight-Instrument-Cable?sku=339028">http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mogami-Silver-Series-14-Straight-Instrument-Cable?sku=339028</A>

[Paul Carmody]

I really don't like Switchcraft. Building cables out of them is a PITA.

And I personally DO like Neutrik connectors. The plasticky ones aren't that great (but very easy to build cables with). I used to be a professional tech with a staging company that did shows as large as the MTV awards and all auto shows. Most connectors were Neutrik, and I never heard any complaints. Never saw a Neutrik XLR or Speakon connector "fall apart," either.

To each his own, I say.

> I agree 1000% with your termination &
> connector quality views. Folks, stick with
> Switchcraft, G&H or Dayton 280 style
> connectors and you'll be very happy. Avoid
> Neutriks. They're pretty shells that are
> just waiting to fall apart.

[shawn_a]

I've made more than a few RCA cables with Neutrik connectors with nary a problem. Same goes with the Speakon and XLR cables I've put together, both types with Neutrik connectors. For my use and experience I don't have a problem with the brand. Yes, they cost a bit more than some other stuff but not by that far of a margin. Especially not when compared to the flamboyantly boutique names of connectors. I do like the Dayton RCA connector PE# 091-1265 quite a bit as well. No frills but built well enough.

As for wire, I prefer the Dayton mic cable PE# 100-220 type. Or I just unwind a bit of the RG-6 QS I have and make that work seeing how it's just collecting dust most of the time anyway.

shawn

[paulv]

I should know better by now.

I should have stated that my concerns are only with the Neutrik 1/4 connectors. Also, my comments only apply to MI interconnects (instrument to amp). Specifically, their strain relief leaves a lot to be desired under actual working conditions.

I agree that their Speakon (heck, they invented them) and XLR connectors are great.

> I really don't like Switchcraft. Building
> cables out of them is a PITA.

> And I personally DO like Neutrik connectors.
> The plasticky ones aren't that great (but
> very easy to build cables with). I used to
> be a professional tech with a staging
> company that did shows as large as the MTV
> awards and all auto shows. Most connectors
> were Neutrik, and I never heard any
> complaints. Never saw a Neutrik XLR or
> Speakon connector "fall apart,"
> either.

> To each his own, I say.

[paulv]

We're talking about MI cables, not hi-fi cables. There's a world of difference. They are as different as a Toyota Avalon (hi-fi cable) and a Hummer (MI cable). The Dayton Mic cable is "OK" but the RG6QS wouldn't last 5 minutes on a pro stage with its solid core.

> I've made more than a few RCA cables with
> Neutrik connectors with nary a problem. Same
> goes with the Speakon and XLR cables I've
> put together, both types with Neutrik
> connectors. For my use and experience I
> don't have a problem with the brand. Yes,
> they cost a bit more than some other stuff
> but not by that far of a margin. Especially
> not when compared to the flamboyantly
> boutique names of connectors. I do like the
> Dayton RCA connector PE# 091-1265 quite a
> bit as well. No frills but built well
> enough.

> As for wire, I prefer the Dayton mic cable
> PE# 100-220 type. Or I just unwind a bit of
> the RG-6 QS I have and make that work seeing
> how it's just collecting dust most of the
> time anyway.

> shawn

[shawn_a]

> We're talking about MI cables, not hi-fi
> cables. There's a world of difference. They
> are as different as a Toyota Avalon (hi-fi
> cable) and a Hummer (MI cable). The Dayton
> Mic cable is "OK" but the RG6QS
> wouldn't last 5 minutes on a pro stage with
> its solid core.

Yes, I understand very well the difference between stage-ready gear and home-grade stuff. I only jumped into the fray because of your generic trashing of Neutrik components which I couldn't agree with. That is until your reply to Mr. Undefinition made your POV quite a bit clearer.

shawn

[Wolf]

You seemed to almost have fell off the face of the earth! I hope you are well, as noone has heard from you in a while.
Later,
Wolf

[Jeff B.]

> You seemed to almost have fell off the face
> of the earth! I hope you are well, as noone
> has heard from you in a while.
> Later,
> Wolf

I wondered too, but it's not Paul Verdone. Paul is doing fine though. I recently had a nice conversation with his wife.

[dlr]

> I wondered too, but it's not Paul Verdone.
> Paul is doing fine though. I recently had a
> nice conversation with his wife.

Do you know if he ever lurks here? I've been wondering if he'll ever jump back into the fray.

dlr

[Jeff B.]

> Do you know if he ever lurks here? I've been
> wondering if he'll ever jump back into the
> fray.

> dlr

Only Paul knows. I have heard nothing from him since February.