Before I take the plunge

[savantstrike]

I ordered a can of black wet look from PE about a week ago, and plan to treat my Genesis I's with it within the next week or so.

Has anyone here used the wet look product, and if so any tips on application? Most importantly, my understanding is that this stuff doesn't alter the sound of the speaker. If someone here has used it and it made the speakers sound worse, please tell me because then I'm scrapping the idea.

And I know a lot of people dont like the whole physics loudspeaker corp line, but honestly I think the 2nd order networks made the Genesis speakers sound better than their EPI counterparts.

[dlr]

Provided Link: Wet Look treatment (http://www.speakerdesign.net/midrange_tweaks/insignia/insignia_woofer.html)


> Has anyone here used the wet look product,
> and if so any tips on application? Most
> importantly, my understanding is that this
> stuff doesn't alter the sound of the
> speaker. If someone here has used it and it
> made the speakers sound worse, please tell
> me because then I'm scrapping the idea.

You may regret this. First, whoever said that it doesn't alter the sound is wildly mistaken. Any time that you add additional doping (mass) to a driver, it's going to change, very possible for the worse.

Second, the Wet Look is useful for some situations, not for some others. I've received used SS 13m/8640 midranges that were treated with what appears to be the same stuff. They were essentially unusable due to the two drivers being so different and both losing sensitivity.

Go to the link below and look at what just a small amount of the stuff can do. It's useful if you know what it will do. Working blind, so-to-speak, is not recommended.

dlr

[savantstrike]

Ugh, I was misled then. I don't want ANY change in sound. I wish I had been able to see this type of measurement before buying this stuff. Guess I have a can of wet look thats going to sit on the shelf.

I wonder if there's anything that it would make look better...

What to do with a can of wet look...
> You may regret this. First, whoever said
> that it doesn't alter the sound is wildly
> mistaken. Any time that you add additional
> doping (mass) to a driver, it's going to
> change, very possible for the worse.

> Second, the Wet Look is useful for some
> situations, not for some others. I've
> received used SS 13m/8640 midranges that
> were treated with what appears to be the
> same stuff. They were essentially unusable
> due to the two drivers being so different
> and both losing sensitivity.

> Go to the link below and look at what just a
> small amount of the stuff can do. It's
> useful if you know what it will do. Working
> blind, so-to-speak, is not recommended.

> dlr

[benz]

Second order?? My brother has a set of genesis model 1 (dated 1984)and there is only a cap on the tweet, did your's have a coil??

[savantstrike]

Yeah. Actually to tell you the truth, I picked mine up from Goodwill for 10 bucks, and then I foamed them.. 30 bucks total.. GREAT bargain. When I went to add some half decent terminals on them (the stock ones SUCK) I notied a coil and two caps.

I also found a pair of Genesis II's in the trash that I restored, which I then gave to my mom because they compliment her EPI model 100's. Those II's sounded really REALLY nice. Those also had a coil and two caps, with some sort of switch arrangement and a resistor on it for making the tweeter less "hot".

I've got a spare pair of the Genesis/epi square basekt woofers, which I am refoaming, and I got a pair of Genesis tweets on ebay (they have bigger magnets than the EPI stuff did). Found an old box of the right cubage and the like, and I'm going to build a second set of I's. This set only costing about 35-40 bucks. I'm upgrading my caps to MP's (really doesnt cost much, only one cap) and the coil value is .47 mH.

All this started when I decided to have my mom's EPI model 100's refoamed as a Xmas gift. I ended up buying a set of the reproduction woofers Huw Powell makes over at Human Speakers. I've since gotten his tweets, and his stuff is top notch.. he just takes forever to deliver, probably a hobbyst like the rest of us, the only reason I mention him is if you want a little extra something in a set of EPI/Genesis speakers, he's the guy to go to. His tweets are nicer, but for 54 each for his tweeters, I wanted ebay stuff. Cheap, and these are my rear channels anyways. Glad I finally took the foam plunge, its gotten to be quite fun to find something half decent and make it work again. Price to performance its unbeatable.

Personally I love Genesis speakers (EPI's are a bit less refined, though note a BIT, theyre still darn close, and sound darn good). You can get them for next to nothing if you know how to look, and they make great surrounds. For a more discriminating acoustic palate you may want something a bit more (some have criticied the midrange on them), but I find them pretty linear. I'm not married to them though. If I found a set of something viciously awesome for cheap, I'd swap them out for said viciously awesome set of speakers. Still, theyre sweet, I don't think I could part with mine.

> Second order?? My brother has a set of
> genesis model 1 (dated 1984)and there is
> only a cap on the tweet, did your's have a
> coil??

[benz]

Funny? if you look in the human site at the model 1 it shows a single 10uf cap on the tweet. I wonder if yours were modified or maybe an older model. The woofers have a sticker on the magnet with the date they were tested, thats how I knew my brother's were '84. Also his had vinyl woodgrain, are yours veneer?

[Soupy]

>......." You can get them for next to nothing
> if you know how to look, and they make great
> surrounds. "

Please!! Pray do tell!! I ran a search on Ebay for 6 months for these and everybody wanted an arm & leg for them. I asked several guys if they'd be willing to just sell me the drivers to save on shipping and they acted as though the cabs were Gold! I don't care about the cabs, I can build cabs and anyone who knows EPI is aware the tweets were it's weak point, they're generally fried or getting near there.

I haven't reconed myself either but those woofs are worth doing so and plenty of kits available.

Human seems to do plenty for a one man shop and cool work at that. Not surprised to hear your report on long wait.

Thanks for the post, I learned a couple things and seriously, if you know where to find 100 model woofs cheap share the treasure!

Soupy

[savantstrike]

Lol, ebay is all... Just gotta be patient.

As for the crossovers.. well crap, I just opened up one of the speakers and.. I was wrong.. no coil. Somehow I had thought there was one, but there wasn't.

Huw does great work, I was just cautioning about the time delay. In fact his woofs sound better than the originals IMO.

As for the EPI tweets, I suppose one could fry one, but with a 2nd order you can get away with a lot more abuse, and the Genesis tweets (rare) are bigger by a large and healthy margin. Sound darn nice too I may add.

> Please!! Pray do tell!! I ran a search on
> Ebay for 6 months for these and everybody
> wanted an arm & leg for them. I asked
> several guys if they'd be willing to just
> sell me the drivers to save on shipping and
> they acted as though the cabs were Gold! I
> don't care about the cabs, I can build cabs
> and anyone who knows EPI is aware the tweets
> were it's weak point, they're generally
> fried or getting near there.

> I haven't reconed myself either but those
> woofs are worth doing so and plenty of kits
> available.

> Human seems to do plenty for a one man shop
> and cool work at that. Not surprised to hear
> your report on long wait.

> Thanks for the post, I learned a couple
> things and seriously, if you know where to
> find 100 model woofs cheap share the
> treasure!

> Soupy

[jims]

> Second order?? My brother has a set of
> genesis model 1 (dated 1984)and there is
> only a cap on the tweet, did your's have a
> coil??

My Genesis 1's (also 1984) have one cap and one coil. This is interesting....

Jim S.

[savantstrike]

Really interesting. Mine are something around 81-83, cant remember...

Do you have the 1+?

> My Genesis 1's (also 1984) have one cap and
> one coil. This is interesting....

> Jim S.

[Soupy]

> Lol, ebay is all... Just gotta be patient.

> As for the crossovers.. well crap, I just
> opened up one of the speakers and.. I was
> wrong.. no coil. Somehow I had thought there
> was one, but there wasn't.

> Huw does great work, I was just cautioning
> about the time delay. In fact his woofs
> sound better than the originals IMO.

> As for the EPI tweets, I suppose one could
> fry one, but with a 2nd order you can get
> away with a lot more abuse, and the Genesis
> tweets (rare) are bigger by a large and
> healthy margin. Sound darn nice too I may
> add.

Savant -

He's the only guy I've run into so far that builds his own drivers ground up. I'll bet they do sound good.

I learned alot about both building and tweeking at his site that's applicable for anything. Some of his customer pics are really nice.

He answers his e-mail too, I like guys that answer their e-mail.

Peter Daniels will never get a penny out of me, don't care how bright a bulb he is. I'll shop elsewhere.

Soupy

Soupy

[jims]

> Really interesting. Mine are something
> around 81-83, cant remember...

> Do you have the 1+?

No, mine are the 1's.

Jim

[savantstrike]

Dang..

I'm going to have to mod mine to make them compatible with my pet build. A companion set :D

By the way, I replaced the caps in mine with MP's rather than electrolytics. The response didn't seem quite as "fast" and a bit less crisp (only sortof though), but omgosh its silky smooth. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. It sounds... phenomenal. Almost as nice as Huw's reproduction aluminum dome design.

By the way, there were factory production epi/genesis woofers from when the plant closed on ebay a week or two ago when I went looking for genesis tweeters. I couldn't find them yesterday, but look hard enough they're there whoever wanted to find them. 20 bucks each, foam looks to be in decent shape too!

I think with a coil, I can recover some of that responsiveness I want. Just a hunch I have. I think the tweets are actually getting more juice now than they did (and that the MP caps are lower in resistance than the 20 year old electrolytics they replaced, therefore the tweets are essentially crossed lower than they were before). Cut them back the tiniest bit, and I'll be golden. I love the MP caps though. Definite upgrade. Makes me want to put them in their own room just to listen to them. Very very soothing.

> No, mine are the 1's.

> Jim

[jims]

> Dang..

> I'm going to have to mod mine to make them
> compatible with my pet build. A companion
> set :D

> By the way, I replaced the caps in mine with
> MP's rather than electrolytics. The response
> didn't seem quite as "fast" and a
> bit less crisp (only sortof though), but
> omgosh its silky smooth. I'd do it again in
> a heartbeat. It sounds... phenomenal. Almost
> as nice as Huw's reproduction aluminum dome
> design.

> By the way, there were factory production
> epi/genesis woofers from when the plant
> closed on ebay a week or two ago when I went
> looking for genesis tweeters. I couldn't
> find them yesterday, but look hard enough
> they're there whoever wanted to find them.
> 20 bucks each, foam looks to be in decent
> shape too!

> I think with a coil, I can recover some of
> that responsiveness I want. Just a hunch I
> have. I think the tweets are actually
> getting more juice now than they did (and
> that the MP caps are lower in resistance
> than the 20 year old electrolytics they
> replaced, therefore the tweets are
> essentially crossed lower than they were
> before). Cut them back the tiniest bit, and
> I'll be golden. I love the MP caps though.
> Definite upgrade. Makes me want to put them
> in their own room just to listen to them.
> Very very soothing.

I've heard that electrolytic caps can drift away from their design values over time. I wonder if part of what you're hearing is a return to what the designer originally intended as far as the crossover point. Just a guess, though.

I find that my Genesis speakers have a sort of a bite or edge on acoustic guitar notes, which I sort of enjoy, but don't hear at all from my other speakers. Overall, though, the Genesis tweeters just aren't as smooth as my other speakers. Probably two sides to the same coin, if that makes sense.

Anyway, you've got me wondering if I should replace the caps in my Genesis speakers, just to see what would happen....

I can't tell what the value of the inductor in my speakers is, and I don't have an LCR meter. It's a pretty narrow gauge of wire.

Jim

[savantstrike]

You'll lose the edge, I know exactly what you're talking about. The new caps get rid of the edge, but they sound a bit more transparent. I'm hoping to keep the transparency but regain the edge with an inductor, It'll give the woofers more time to catch up with the tweeters, hopefully giving them some more edge.

> I've heard that electrolytic caps can drift
> away from their design values over time. I
> wonder if part of what you're hearing is a
> return to what the designer originally
> intended as far as the crossover point. Just
> a guess, though.

> I find that my Genesis speakers have a sort
> of a bite or edge on acoustic guitar notes,
> which I sort of enjoy, but don't hear at all
> from my other speakers. Overall, though, the
> Genesis tweeters just aren't as smooth as my
> other speakers. Probably two sides to the
> same coin, if that makes sense.

> Anyway, you've got me wondering if I should
> replace the caps in my Genesis speakers,
> just to see what would happen....

> I can't tell what the value of the inductor
> in my speakers is, and I don't have an LCR
> meter. It's a pretty narrow gauge of wire.

> Jim