Where to add sub? X-mas money burning a hole! *PIC*

[clarkbradshaw]

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/clarkbradshaw/Floorplan.jpg


So I ended up with a tidy sum of christmas money and I want to add another sub to my living room.

My current setup has a Titanic II 12" running on a 250 Watt plate amp in the pedistal of my left DIII tower. In my old house it was all I wanted. My new house has much more space and a vaulted ceiling so there's still plenty of musical bass but no big boom for movies. The Titanic bottoms out before reaching chest-pounding levels.

My budget is anywhere from $200 up to $400. I was thinking of adding one of three things:

1. replacing the Titanic in the front left speaker tower with a refrence series 12" sub and building a new box for the Titanic with better placement elsewhere in the room.

2. building a new sub behind the chair in the corner to handle only the lowest frequencies, maybe under 60Hz.

3. Putting an IB sub in the wall behind the chair using the garage as the airspace.

I'm really looking for that super-low end extension that my Titanic doesn't give in this living room so I don't need to add a "full range"(20 - 120Hz) sub. I just need reinforcement in the lowest, earth shaking parts.

Please help me spend my money wisely... at least wisely as far as subs go.

Thanks
Clark B.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> So I ended up with a tidy sum of christmas
> money and I want to add another sub to my
> living room.

> My current setup has a Titanic II 12"
> running on a 250 Watt plate amp in the
> pedistal of my left DIII tower. In my old
> house it was all I wanted. My new house has
> much more space and a vaulted ceiling so
> there's still plenty of musical bass but no
> big boom for movies. The Titanic bottoms out
> before reaching chest-pounding levels.

> My budget is anywhere from $200 up to $400.
> I was thinking of adding one of three
> things:

> 1. replacing the Titanic in the front left
> speaker tower with a refrence series
> 12" sub and building a new box for the
> Titanic with better placement elsewhere in
> the room.

> 2. building a new sub behind the chair in
> the corner to handle only the lowest
> frequencies, maybe under 60Hz.

> 3. Putting an IB sub in the wall behind the
> chair using the garage as the airspace.

> I'm really looking for that super-low end
> extension that my Titanic doesn't give in
> this living room so I don't need to add a
> "full range"(20 - 120Hz) sub. I
> just need reinforcement in the lowest, earth
> shaking parts.

> Please help me spend my money wisely... at
> least wisely as far as subs go.

> Thanks
> Clark B.

Utilize that space in the garage for a large enclosure behind a pair of RS390HF. With that much volume, you could even build a vented enclosure tuned to 10Hz for in-room extension into the low teens. I do believe HT effects would take on new realism.

[clarkbradshaw]

> Utilize that space in the garage for a large
> enclosure behind a pair of RS390HF. With
> that much volume, you could even build a
> vented enclosure tuned to 10Hz for in-room
> extension into the low teens. I do believe
> HT effects would take on new realism.

I don't understand part of the response. Are you suggesting making a vented IB? Is that possible?

Clark B

[clarkbradshaw]

One more thing.

I'm worried that placement behind the chair would sound lousy. At what frequency do you really stop worrying about directionality? I have (in the past) played with a sub in different positions crossed at 80Hz and there is a lot more directionality than I expected, especially when placing a sub farther from the mains or behind the listening position.

Where should it be crossed to avoid most of this? Has anyone else played around with a sub up front and one in the back?

Another option would be an IB sub in the wall behind the TV, using the master closet as airspace, but I don't want to rattle the rest of the house as much as I'm afraid that would. My 5 year-old son's room is on the other side of the master closet. If it's going to be IB I think it has to be into the garage or not at all.

[Wolf]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/wolf_teeth_speaker/Marianas/subM037Gossamer.jpg


> One more thing.

> I'm worried that placement behind the chair
> would sound lousy. At what frequency do you
> really stop worrying about directionality? I
> have (in the past) played with a sub in
> different positions crossed at 80Hz and
> there is a lot more directionality than I
> expected, especially when placing a sub
> farther from the mains or behind the
> listening position.

IB- I'd stick with the garage anyway. That corner is closer to you than across the room, and you are in effect corner-loading slightly. I think the Dayton IB15, DC18 would both work quite well, and they are cheaper than the RSS390.

Usually, I will xover below 70Hz if at all possible, and use pretty steep slopes. If you can have an LR4 slope, do it. The first harmonic of 70 is 140Hz, and 150+ is definitely sub-locating land. In my room, below 70Hz is fine, but the lower the better, as long as the mains can keep up in output. I wouldn't xover below 40Hz, because of how much material is below that point, so IME/O, 40-70Hz is optimal. If you can get a variable phase adjustment, it helps as well, as it will dial in time-alignment from the mains to the closer sub. This made the difference in my setup. The only other thing I would suggest is a stealth-install, so you don't know where the subs are. Knowing positions of subs is more detrimental to location in my experience. You just want to watch them *MOVE*!! =-)
Later,
Wolf

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> I don't understand part of the response. Are
> you suggesting making a vented IB? Is that
> possible?

> Clark B

I was suggesting doing the IB first, using the garage space to hold the large enclosure. You don't want to use the garage as the enclosure, you'd be driving your neighbors crazy.

I was merely suggesting that the large enclosure could be vented to extend the sub-20Hz response. Certainly not necessary, but oh what a "feeling".

[dlneubec]

Hi Clark,

Just an observation for you. I've found that down firing subs seem to be harder to locate than front or up firing, should you decide against an IB.

Dan

> So I ended up with a tidy sum of christmas
> money and I want to add another sub to my
> living room.

> My current setup has a Titanic II 12"
> running on a 250 Watt plate amp in the
> pedistal of my left DIII tower. In my old
> house it was all I wanted. My new house has
> much more space and a vaulted ceiling so
> there's still plenty of musical bass but no
> big boom for movies. The Titanic bottoms out
> before reaching chest-pounding levels.

> My budget is anywhere from $200 up to $400.
> I was thinking of adding one of three
> things:

> 1. replacing the Titanic in the front left
> speaker tower with a refrence series
> 12" sub and building a new box for the
> Titanic with better placement elsewhere in
> the room.

> 2. building a new sub behind the chair in
> the corner to handle only the lowest
> frequencies, maybe under 60Hz.

> 3. Putting an IB sub in the wall behind the
> chair using the garage as the airspace.

> I'm really looking for that super-low end
> extension that my Titanic doesn't give in
> this living room so I don't need to add a
> "full range"(20 - 120Hz) sub. I
> just need reinforcement in the lowest, earth
> shaking parts.

> Please help me spend my money wisely... at
> least wisely as far as subs go.

> Thanks
> Clark B.

[clarkbradshaw]

In doing some more research it seems that recommended IB setup uses at least two drivers to make up for lower SPLs inherent in IBs.

It seems that the infinite baffle sets you up to use lower power to avoid bottoming out the driver, hence the need for multiple drivers to compensate. The benefit is truly powerful and accurate bass down to 16Hz in many cases.

The downside is that I don't think I can afford two drivers and a good sub amp right now.

Any thoughts about doing an Infinite Baffle setup with only one driver?

[clarkbradshaw]

I think we've been talking about two different things. It just occured to me that IB could be Isobaric. I meant to say I might use the garage space as Infinite Baffle. I should have been clearer. Your responses make much more sense to me now.

Thanks. Even the idea of using garage space to house the enclosure is excelent. My wife would approve.

[johnnail]

> So I ended up with a tidy sum of christmas
> money and I want to add another sub to my
> living room.

> My current setup has a Titanic II 12"
> running on a 250 Watt plate amp in the
> pedistal of my left DIII tower. In my old
> house it was all I wanted. My new house has
> much more space and a vaulted ceiling so
> there's still plenty of musical bass but no
> big boom for movies. The Titanic bottoms out
> before reaching chest-pounding levels.

> My budget is anywhere from $200 up to $400.
> I was thinking of adding one of three
> things:

> 1. replacing the Titanic in the front left
> speaker tower with a refrence series
> 12" sub and building a new box for the
> Titanic with better placement elsewhere in
> the room.

> 2. building a new sub behind the chair in
> the corner to handle only the lowest
> frequencies, maybe under 60Hz.

> 3. Putting an IB sub in the wall behind the
> chair using the garage as the airspace.

> I'm really looking for that super-low end
> extension that my Titanic doesn't give in
> this living room so I don't need to add a
> "full range"(20 - 120Hz) sub. I
> just need reinforcement in the lowest, earth
> shaking parts.

> Please help me spend my money wisely... at
> least wisely as far as subs go.

> Thanks
> Clark B.
In some article of Audio Xpress, there was a writeup on an "under the sofa" subwoofer....TL loaded...since you already have one Titanic, get another......and do them in stereo on either side of the TV....and add the "under the sofa" TL subwoofer unit as well. The best room bass loading is going to be where it is loading from all corners (quadrants) of the room. This way, you don't have any particular area that is bass heavy or lean....more even loading throughout the room. Also, since there would be 3 or 4 (dual under sofa subs...one at each end of sofa) subwoofers, each would have to work only 1/4 as hard at making bass as a single that you have now.
Make them all downfiring if possible, and cut them at 70hz or a touch lower....24db slope. But like mentioned earlier, hopefully the mains are capable of keeping up from 70hz and higher.
For a setup like this on the simple end, go with a couple used Paradigm XO 30's or something like that.....gives you adjustable phase 0-270 for one channel of bass, while the other is not phase adjusted. Use plate amps for each sub....feed each plate amp from one channel of the XO-30....the furthest bass units from the mains should be the one to get the largest adjustment of phase. For the subs parked underneath the mains, not as much phase alignment should be needed.... Just a whacky idea...but it works pretty good in application....just takes some tweeking.

John

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> In doing some more research it seems that
> recommended IB setup uses at least two
> drivers to make up for lower SPLs inherent
> in IBs.

> It seems that the infinite baffle sets you
> up to use lower power to avoid bottoming out
> the driver, hence the need for multiple
> drivers to compensate. The benefit is truly
> powerful and accurate bass down to 16Hz in
> many cases.

> The downside is that I don't think I can
> afford two drivers and a good sub amp right
> now.

> Any thoughts about doing an Infinite Baffle
> setup with only one driver?

There's nothing wrong with doing that at all. Just build the enclosure way oversized so that you can add another woofer down the road if you wanted it.

[mmoose2]

> Any thoughts about doing an Infinite Baffle
> setup with only one driver?

With only one? I'd skip it and go with a large vented box and an appropriate driver.

My Dayton DVC 15" in 3.5' tuned to 25 hz, dayton 500w amp is nice. Really good HT effects, good music. But I like the IB better, 4x15" in a manifold, Behringer ep1500. The single dvc is louder. But when it comes to the movie effects, the IB just moves a large amount of air and you feel it. At some point, I didn't need "louder" (even at the low freqs), but I get more effects from the ib. And for music, the ib is a purist ideal.

Now that you've thought IB, you won't get away from it. But wait and do it right when you budget for it. I wouldn't mind doubling my 4 drivers to 8 (wife would never go for that). But the rule of thumb for ib drivers and power is about 4 to 1 for raw SPL (like you have probably read.)

martymoose

[dlneubec]

How about cofee table or end table subs (downfiring)?

How about a second front sub as mentioned and/or some of the Aura Pro bass shakers for under the couch and loveseat? I have been amazed by the effect of the tactile vibration in the controls of the Wii gaming system. You feel like you are getting deep bass, though it is nothing more than vibration in your hands.

Dan

[robert]

Clark: since you already have the enclosures in your Dayton III's for subs, just add a second one : )

You could do two 12" RSS315's, each with a plate amplifier and you'll be rockin' easy! I would go with that type of setup since you already have the cabs.

Robert

[clarkbradshaw]

> Clark: since you already have the enclosures
> in your Dayton III's for subs, just add a
> second one : )

This was my original intention but I'm just thinking about other options. My concern is that in our new house (well, we've lived here over 2 years) the space is much more open than our last house and neither sub would end up in an ideal location. They are both pretty much in the middle of a wall. There's the problem with building a sub enclosure into your mains. It cuts out a lot of flexibility.

After hearing your RS setup I planned to replace the titanic with a pair of RS drivers and add the vents to each. I may still go that route, maybe reuse the titanic for something else.

Too many choices!

Thanks
Clark B.

[clarkbradshaw]

The DIII mains are capable of 40Hz easy. Low x-over shouldn't be an issue. I like the idea of under the sofa, but our sofa doesn't have much room underneath. It sits about 1" from the floor.

Really, the least I could do is add a second sub the the mains and make everything much louder. I don't think there is a bad option presented by anyone here. I just like to overthink things.

[philiparcario]

Provided Link: nht21259 pair and dayton "couch" sub (http://s237.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/philipma1957/)


> This was my original intention but I'm just
> thinking about other options. My concern is
> that in our new house (well, we've lived
> here over 2 years) the space is much more
> open than our last house and neither sub
> would end up in an ideal location. They are
> both pretty much in the middle of a wall.
> There's the problem with building a sub
> enclosure into your mains. It cuts out a lot
> of flexibility.

> After hearing your RS setup I planned to
> replace the titanic with a pair of RS
> drivers and add the vents to each. I may
> still go that route, maybe reuse the titanic
> for something else.

> Too many choices!

> Thanks
> Clark B.
add a sub and have a pair as stands. later on add a couch sub see link

[unknownuser]

Is your current titanic ported or sealed? I would try building a large ported box tuned to the low 20's. Assuming the specs are still the same buy another titanic 12 and the same amp and run a dual sub setup with subs in different locations. I would think two titanics tuned low in a room that sized would pound with movie effects. That would be a low cost solution $160 for sub + $100 for the amp, but not as much fun as buying a "different" new subwoofer.


(Originally posted by: Jason S)

[Wolf]

[clarkbradshaw]

Current Titanic is sealed in a 1.5 Cu Ft enclosure.

I'm going to replace it with the RS 12" which works well in a 1.5 Cu Ft enclosure and add an aperiodic vent.

Then I'm building a 5 cu ft ported box tuned to 19Hz to go in the corner behind the big chair. I'll cross it around 40-50Hz. We'll see what happens!

Thanks All!

Clark B.