Just for fun - Upgrade Sanyo speakers

[djmc]

Hi all,

I just bought a nice Marantz audio amplifier and the former owner gave me a pair of Sanyo SS-566 speakers for free. Just for fun I want to see how much I can improve the quality (=crap) of these speakers with a minimal $$ investment, for my son.

The SS-566 is a 3-way system (8-ohm).
Woofer: S25F35 (10")
Mid: S10H12A
Tweeter: S08H17A

Attached the crossover filter as is, with electrolytic caps (these have to go).
I can find no information at all for the 3 Sanyo speakers, except a little paper on the back of the cabinet that states it is 8 ohms.
Currently there is a hole in the front panel with no port-tube (??). I'm planning on making this a closed system.

I'll replaced all internal wires and add dampening material in here (currently none). I have no specs of the individual speakers so was wondering if anybody has a recommendation for the 3-way crossover filter? I want to stay with 6dB/oct to reduce components.

Thanks, Marco

[philiparcario]

put a meter on the drivers to be sure they are all 8 ohms. it looks like you have a woofer with a rolloff only . so an inductor would help it are the tweeter 3.3uf and the mid 4.7uf caps replace with dayton's if they are

[philiparcario]

a 3.3 uf cap crosses at 6000hz or so a 4.7uf cap crosses at 4200 or so. that means the woofer just rolls off and the mid runs from 4200 and up and the tweeter runs from 6000 and up. if the mid is 16ohm and not 8 ohm it runs from 2100 and up. you need to measure the ohms on all three drivers. to be sure what inductor to use on the woofer. .2mh works or .3mh works can't tell without a meter reading on the woofer and the mid. buy this cap for the tweeter
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=027-420

1.69 a piece

for the mid

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=027-422

2bucks a piece

poly-fil to stuff

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-317 10 bucks

this is optional

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-024 16 bucks


I would want the inductors if I did this for my self

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=255-024&DID=7

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=255-028&DID=7 don't know which one you need

[biff]

I think I would grab some closet rod (fat dowel) and make some braces, front to back, side to side, top to bottom. A couple of each should be a big improvement in cabinet stiffness and reduce panel resonance.

[philiparcario]

I think I would grab some closet rod (fat dowel) and make some braces, front to back, side to side, top to bottom. A couple of each should be a big improvement in cabinet stiffness and reduce panel resonance.

Yes very good idea that worked in lots of projects on this site. the redheads come to mind. Low cost

[Æ]

Can you post some pics of the SANYO speakers?
Is the tweeter a cone or dome tweeter?
I'm guessing a closed back midrange?
Does the woofer have a small magnet or a large magnet?

If your pair of loudspeakers has a cone tweeter, I'd automatically replace the cone tweeter with a dome unit. (find an affordable pair)

If the woofer magnet is good sized, I'd keep the enclosure as a reflex enclosure, but add a length of duct/tube to tune the port.

If the woofer magnet seems small, then I'd seal the enclosures and stuff the insides with fiberglas batting or poly stuffing. I prefer poly pillow stuffing, because it's cheap and fiberglas itches, irritates your skin.

[djmc]

Thank you all for your replies.

I messured all speakers and here the results:
Tweeter: 7 ohm (cone type, backside closed)
Mid: 7 ohm (cone type, backside closed)
Woofer: 7.5 ohm (small magnet)
Total impedance: 8 ohm

Attached some pictures. This will show you how the wiring is done by Sanyo :eek:. The cabinet dimensions are 67.5cm(h) x 36.5cm"(w) x 25cm"(d).

The thing that I found strange is that for the midrange and tweeter speaker the connections are swapped (+ and -). This 180 degree phase shift should not be nessesarry for a 1st order filter, right?
Also the cones of damaged, they have some knocks in it.

I'm open for replacing these speakers if I can re-use the existing front panel.
The dimensions of the holes are:
Tweeter: 8 cm
Midrange: 10 cm
Woofer: 23 cm

Maybe somebody knows a nice 2-way speaker pair?

[philiparcario]

go low cost try the braces and the poly fil use the dayton caps and and the inductor for the woofer. under 40 bucks for all

[djmc]

Is there a good way to fix a dented cone tweeter?

As you maybe can see on the pictures the silver colored cone is dented.

[Æ]

Is there a good way to fix a dented cone tweeter?

As you maybe can see on the pictures the silver colored cone is dented.

No easy/good way to un-dent a tweeter unless you can disassemble it.
Anyway my recommendation still stands. Replace the tweeters. You can find inexpensive domes for $10 each.
I bet that you could even use a stock off the shelf crossover. Anything would be better than what you have now.
The cabinet bracing will really help, then stuff the heck out of them. You might not even have to close the port hole. It will kind of end up acting like an aperiodic vent if the enclosures are fully/completely stuffed.

[johnastockman]

Is there a good way to fix a dented cone tweeter?

As you maybe can see on the pictures the silver colored cone is dented.

No good way to fix the cones of those tweeters. There are many options, some cheap, some maybe more than you want to put into them. Using the original cabinet, definitely add some bracing...a few of the aforementioned dowel rods work very well. You'd be surprised how much difference some bracing makes in these old boxes. Tweeters are inexpensive and the other suggestion about replacing them is another idea. Even a cheap dome tweeter can be better than those cone-types. No guarantees, though, because whatever crossover is in there was designed for those drivers...a different one could sound worse. But with the mid in there, I'd imagine the cross to the tweeter is fairly high, so that just might work. There's some 3-way projects out there, if you want to replace all the drivers and solder up a new crossover. They might fit in the existing holes. Add some braces, internal damping, larger gauge wire, you're set. PE does carry a couple of those cone types:

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=453

Thing is, you don't know the sensitivity rating of the one you have now, so it would be a guess. Only about $5, so you could try it.

John A.

[brianp]

Even a cheap dome tweeter can be better than those cone-types. No guarantees, though, because whatever crossover is in there was designed for those drivers...a different one could sound worse.
John A.

I seriously doubt that much "design" effort went into a speaker of this sort. This looks like a mass-market budget model, at about the level of RatShack or white van specials, and it probably measures horribly. Just slapping in some cheapazoid Goldwood replacement drivers and a generic PE crossover would probably constitute an immense improvement over the original. Heck, a piezo horn tweeter would probably be an improvement over those little paper cone jobbies.

This is NOT idle speculation. I rebuilt a pair of white van speakers for a guy after he blew all the drivers on the first cannon shot of the 1812 overture. Used ultra-cheap generic replacement drivers from PE, including some $2 piezo tweets, and cobbled up a minimalist textbook xo. I did add a lot of bracing inside the box, and cram it full of fiberglass. They sounded way better than the originals, and he was happy.

[johnastockman]

I seriously doubt that much "design" effort went into a speaker of this sort. This looks like a mass-market budget model, at about the level of RatShack or white van specials, and it probably measures horribly. Just slapping in some cheapazoid Goldwood replacement drivers and a generic PE crossover would probably constitute an immense improvement over the original. Heck, a piezo horn tweeter would probably be an improvement over those little paper cone jobbies.

This is NOT idle speculation. I rebuilt a pair of white van speakers for a guy after he blew all the drivers on the first cannon shot of the 1812 overture. Used ultra-cheap generic replacement drivers from PE, including some $2 piezo tweets, and cobbled up a minimalist textbook xo. I did add a lot of bracing inside the box, and cram it full of fiberglass. They sounded way better than the originals, and he was happy.


I agree whole-heartedly...I'm sure any "designing" that went into these types of speakers was minimal and more than likely, none at all. The large majority I've had here only had a teeny cap the size of a pencil eraser on the mid & tweeter and the woofer ran full-range. Even more recognized name brands are that way. So yes, anything would probably be an improvement. But I'm pretty opinionated about commercial offerings, white-van or otherwise, so I didn't want to seem too negative (like I usually am) or 100% positive. I've had the same situations where new drivers and/or parts weren't an improvement. The odds are in favor of an improvement in these instances, but not all the time.

John A.

[jonpike]

I think I would grab some closet rod (fat dowel) and make some braces, front to back, side to side, top to bottom. A couple of each should be a big improvement in cabinet stiffness and reduce panel resonance.

Yeah, that will help a lot, and be the cheapest of the mods... A tip, use Epoxy instead of wood glue, it will fill in and be strong in gaps, make a better bond.

[jonpike]

I think I would grab some closet rod (fat dowel) and make some braces, front to back, side to side, top to bottom. A couple of each should be a big improvement in cabinet stiffness and reduce panel resonance.

Yeah, that will help a lot, and be the cheapest of the mods... A tip, use Epoxy instead of wood glue, it will fill in and be strong in gaps, make a better bond.

Another tip, going for something smaller in diameter (like 1/2") than that closet rod might be easier to get in place, and getting it in a hardwood like Poplar would make up in stiffness for the loss in thickness.

But, just about anything will help a lot... Sounds like fun!

[Brian Steele]

Yeah, that will help a lot, and be the cheapest of the mods... A tip, use Epoxy instead of wood glue, it will fill in and be strong in gaps, make a better bond.

Another tip, going for something smaller in diameter (like 1/2") than that closet rod might be easier to get in place, and getting it in a hardwood like Poplar would make up in stiffness for the loss in thickness.

But, just about anything will help a lot... Sounds like fun!


How about this for bracing:

Use the closet rods, however, with each length of closet rod, use two 2.5"x2.5" square blocks of 1" MDF with a hole cut/drilled through the center just big enough for the rod to slide through with some resistance. Cut the closet rod just slightly shorter than required to get it into the cabinet without having to force it into place. Slide one block onto each end of the closet rod. Finally, use glue to glue the rod to the blocks, and the blocks to the inside of the cabinet walls. Glue all at the same time, using a glue that gives you a fairly decent set time (e.g. do NOT use "Crazy" glue or contact cement). Use screws to hold the blocks in place, if necessary.

[djmc]

Hereby I wanted to give you an update on my little project.

The volume of one cabinet is 1.845 cu ft.
I'm going to add braces today and want to add an aperiodic vent.

The mid driver and tweeter are damaged in both cabinets so I have to replace them. The Sanyo 10" woofers look fine (besides a little dusty).
I do not know yet if I want to go with a 2-way or 3-way enclosed system.

I do not have any spec on the Sanyo woofer, so want to stay with a low crossover and use a sealed back mid-range driver like 5" Goldwood 280-115 and a dome tweeter for the 3-way solution.

Or, for the 2-way solution, use the TB-Speakers 28-847SD (264-822) dome tweeter that has a range of 850-25000Hz.

Any thoughts?

[natediggidy]

djmc, those speakers are bass reflex types (ported), An aperiodic vent is used in sealed (acoustic reflex) speakers where the cabinet size is smaller than optimum. If you're keeping the original Sanyo woofer, the aperiodic vent won't do you any good.

[philiparcario]

the two way tweeter will not go low enough see this link

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-822s.pdf

the graph shows that 1700 to 2000 hz are the minimum crossover point. this is a better choice for a 2 way

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-811s.pdf

you can cross lower and if the top end is not good enough add one of these dayton tweeters

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-035

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-030

[djmc]

Are there any cheap mid-range speakers you can recommend for a sealed system?

[philiparcario]

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/51-075

is a wide range mid range 12.59 for 1

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-1500

11.59 for one

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-1595

12.59 for one all of these have a wide range they will all cross from 100hz to 300hz easy on the low end. they will all get to 4000hz and you can add the dayton tweeter for top end. both the pioneer 51-075 and the mcm 55-1595 might work with just the woofer you have and no tweeter.

[rudyjakubin]

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/51-075

is a wide range mid range 12.59 for 1

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-1500

11.59 for one

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-1595

12.59 for one all of these have a wide range they will all cross from 100hz to 300hz easy on the low end. they will all get to 4000hz and you can add the dayton tweeter for top end. both the pioneer 51-075 and the mcm 55-1595 might work with just the woofer you have and no tweeter.

I was thinking along those thoughts also.
The Pioneer drivers look like a good fit.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-083
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=280-020
As for the tweeter the low cost Daytons would probably fit.

[brianp]

Hereby I wanted to give you an update on my little project.

The volume of one cabinet is 1.845 cu ft.
I'm going to add braces today and want to add an aperiodic vent.

The mid driver and tweeter are damaged in both cabinets so I have to replace them. The Sanyo 10" woofers look fine (besides a little dusty).
I do not know yet if I want to go with a 2-way or 3-way enclosed system.

I do not have any spec on the Sanyo woofer, so want to stay with a low crossover and use a sealed back mid-range driver like 5" Goldwood 280-115 and a dome tweeter for the 3-way solution.

Or, for the 2-way solution, use the TB-Speakers 28-847SD (264-822) dome tweeter that has a range of 850-25000Hz.

Any thoughts?

I found the notes for the "boomer" speakers I "fixed" for the guy. The original woofers were some cheapazoid 10" jobbies with tiny magnets and ran un-filtered (no inductor). These were replaced with some $15 Goldwood 10-inchers (#290-320, I think) which fit the cutouts perfectly. I ran these unfiltered, and they ran surprisingly flat up to 2kHz on-axis, then started to roll off gently, so I left well enough alone. The Goldwood 5" sealed back mids (280-012) were also drop-in replacements for the blown originals; I crossed them in around 2kHz with 10uF mylar caps. The original tweets were sealed-back paper cones; instead of replacing them with similar, I cheaped out and got a pair of Goldwood piezo horns (270-011). As I recall, they were a bit smaller than the holes and I had to pack in a bunch of putty to make them fit. L-padded them with 4 Ohms shunt and 4 Ohms series, then treated them as 8 Ohms and crossed in at 10kHz with 2uF mylar. Then protected the whole mess with a 40W self-resetting circuit breaker (260-800) between the (-) input terminal and the paralleled (-) wires of all the drivers, in case he tried to 1812 them again.

Main box mods included gluing some tiles to the inside walls, putting in a couple of cross braces (both side to side and front to back), and lining the boxes with pink fiberglass and sculptured foam mattress material. We didn't mess with the bass reflex tuning, because it was what it was and sounded OK.

The results sounded way better than they had any right to--non-fatiguing and actually rather enjoyable. The guy was placing them right against the wall, either side of the TV, so no BSC was required, and they had solid bass below 50Hz. And as I mentioned earlier, he was happy with them.

[rudyjakubin]

Hi all,

Currently there is a hole in the front panel with no port-tube (??). I'm planning on making this a closed system.

Thanks, Marco

What size is that port hole?
I just modeled that Pioneer woofer in WinIsd for a 1.8 cu. ft. box and it graphs real nice.
If it's around 6.4 cm or 2.5 inches than a tube 2 - 6 inches long would be perfect.

[djmc]

The port hole has a diameter of 5,5cm (+/- 2.1 inches).
The panel is 15mm thick, if that helps.

I do not think that the Sanyo woofer has a high SPL so I may go for a midrange with a SPL of 90dB or so, max.

P.S.: You guys are great!

[rudyjakubin]

That 2" port puts it out of the range of that Pioneer woofer if some how you can manage a 12'" long tube.
You maybe right about that SPL but you'll be guessing at what resistors you'll need to pad down the mid and tweet. Either buy a bunch of different value resistors or an L-pad.
Good Luck!

[djmc]

OK, I think I'm going with a Tang Band W3-881S (264-812) or W3-1723SA (264-827). (range 100 - 20k).
Does anybody have experience with one of these?

With this one I do not have to add a seperate tweeter and can use my 10" woofer only for the very low frequencies. Crossover at 250Hz?

[envisionelec]

Anyone up for a round of turd-polishing? Anyone? :rolleyes:

[johnastockman]

Anyone up for a round of turd-polishing? Anyone? :rolleyes:


Yeah, I keep on beating my head against the wall because it feels good when I stop! Folks bring these speakers to my house on a regular basis...I try to tell them, but for some, the options they have are limited to what they brought by and "I can only spend xx-dollars". A few songs doing side-by-sides with some BR-1's or similar budget stuff reveals the "turd" qualities. Of course, because they've never had the chance to compare with anything, only going by memory of a friend who has some (insert retail brand) whatevers. It's funny...after comparing, their "options" always change. For what it usually costs in time/money to go through all the upgrades (which can never guarantee "better" SQ), they realize I could put together something with far better SQ for the same or less $$. But I like dinking around with stuff, so I usually make an attempt. Just being ay my house and hearing some well-designed DIY stuff has already opened their eyes, so who knows...


John A.

[envisionelec]

Just being ay my house and hearing some well-designed DIY stuff has already opened their eyes, so who knows...


John A.

I've bought and improved my fair share of cheap speakers - in fact, I just bought a set of BSR 3-ways last week that needs a new 8" mid. Or how about the Sansui SP-X8700 I bought yesterday? Neither one sounds any good for serious listening, but one of the contenders will find a spot in my garage as the loudest (per watt) bassiest speaker I can possibly find for under $50.
Add a big $20 15 band stereo EQ and a giant Sansui receiver, and I have a system that I can pound just for fun while I build speakers that actually sound good.

[natediggidy]

... and I have a system that I can pound just for fun ....

As good a reason as any ;) . I say go for it :cool:.