Somewhat confused with my speakers

[farookey]

Hi there, new to this forum....i have some questions and hopefully someone can help. i purchased two 10 pioneer woofers and 2 vifa tweeters along with a cross over to rebuild an old set of boxes. after hooking them up to an amplifier for the first time the highs seem to be unbearably overpowering! does anyone know what to do to eliminate this problem?

[spasticteapot]

Hi there, new to this forum....i have some questions and hopefully someone can help. i purchased two 10 pioneer woofers and 2 vifa tweeters along with a cross over to rebuild an old set of boxes. after hooking them up to an amplifier for the first time the highs seem to be unbearably overpowering! does anyone know what to do to eliminate this problem?

There should be two resistors in the tweeter section of the crossover: One in series, one in parallel. Increasing the value of the resistor in series might help a bit.

That said, generic crossovers don't work very well at all - design a crossover from scratch, or don't bother at all.

[Some Guy]

Hi there, new to this forum....i have some questions and hopefully someone can help. i purchased two 10 pioneer woofers and 2 vifa tweeters along with a cross over to rebuild an old set of boxes. after hooking them up to an amplifier for the first time the highs seem to be unbearably overpowering! does anyone know what to do to eliminate this problem?

Which Pioneer woofers? Which Vifa tweeters? What are you using for a corssover?

Basically sounds as though an L-pad may be in order...but maybe not.

[farookey]

Pioneer W25GR31-51F 10" woofer
Vifa D25AG-35 1" Aluminum Dome Tweeter
Crossover 2-Way 8 Ohm 5,000 Hz 150W

thats the setup i have going right now

[Æ]

Pioneer W25GR31-51F 10" woofer
Vifa D25AG-35 1" Aluminum Dome Tweeter
Crossover 2-Way 8 Ohm 5,000 Hz 150W

A 10 inch woofer doesn't have a lot of extended midrange. You probably have a bit of a midrange "hole" between the bass (woofer) and the tweeter (treble). You might want to modify your crossover to lower the tweeter crossover frequency about another octave. Typically if the tweeter is too hot, you would pad (attenuate) the tweeter to match the tweeter to the same level as the woofer. An adjustable L-Pad works fairly well.

[farookey]

so how about an L-pad for each tweeter along with an added resistor inline with the tweeter to lower the crossover frequency? Im really not sure how all of this works, kinda new to this stuff

[dthomas]

A 10 inch woofer will not play to 5000Hz and be considered high fidelity. At the most 1000Hz to 1500Hz and even then few woofers this size will do this. The tweeter you selected is best when used no lower than 2500Hz to 3000Hz. I would go as low as possible as the compromise on the tweeters performance will be negligible compared to the woofer above 1000Hz.

Your best option would be to buy a midrange dome like the RS52 and a 3 way crossover. But any premade crossover is not going to give you the expected response or deal with any of the drivers out of band anomalies.

An Lpad will help to tame your tweeter but you are likely hearing significant breakup from the woofer due to the high crossover point so it may not get you where you want to be or eliminate the screeching sound you hear. Also depending on your baffle width there will need to be some added baffle step compensation added to the crossover to get the overall response even reasonably flat.

The best advice I would give you is to scrap this idea and go with a kit if you are wanting a good sounding loudspeaker. No disrespect intended but what you are wanting to do is not going to net you a good soundling loudspeaker.
If you insist on trying to get this project off the ground see if PE will swap your crossover for a lower crossover frequency add an LPad and post your baffle dimension so someone here can recommend an inductor and resistor to at least some baffle step compensation to the crossover. You will need to be able to solder to add this circuit but it is pretty simple and straight forward to add.

A 10" 2 way loudspeaker is very difficult to accomplish and only a handful of drivers will even come close to pulling this off. And off the shelf crossovers are not the way to go if you are ultimately craving high fidelity.

[Dirk]

Now, don't actually DO this. It's more just a question:

Couldn't you effectively a.) cut the tweeter output by -3dB and b.) cut the crossover frequency in half by shunting the tweeter with 6-8ohm resistor?

I realize the impedance will be halved, but it'd only be for the high frequencies, and there's not really much power up there anyway. I don't think it'd give an average solid state amp any trouble.

Guys?

[farookey]

ok so what can i change in the crossover to lower the crossover frequency without returning the crossovers to parts express, is this possible? the speakers overall have a great sound, just a little bit of tweaking could help. does the fact the woofers being 8 ohms compared to the 6 ohm resistance of the tweeter?

[farookey]

the boxes are like 15x12x24ish tall

[johnastockman]

Pioneer W25GR31-51F 10" woofer
Vifa D25AG-35 1" Aluminum Dome Tweeter
Crossover 2-Way 8 Ohm 5,000 Hz 150W

thats the setup i have going right now


Yeah, that woofer will only be good up to 1000Hz to 1500Hz, at best. What you are hearing is the tweeter running full-bore (no l-pad to match up/attenuate its output to the woofer) and the woofer crossing WAY too high. It will sound horrible because the woofer just cannot physically reproduce frequencies that high and the cone will "break up" when feeding it the higher frequencies. Besides, a pre-made crossover (XO) isn't an option, as there are too many variables to consider...they can't take into account these things. They're designed for a fixed load of 4 or 8 ohms, which neither a woofer or a tweeter is. The pre-made assumes an "ideal" driver...never the case. And we know the old adage about "assume". I wish you would have asked before you spent your money on these. There are great projects out there in DIY speaker-land that net great sound quality for not alot of $$. You might be able to use those tweeters, but to get them to work properly and emit a sound you can listen to for more than one song without ear fatigue, you need a midrange to cover the "hole" in the midrange that the woofer just can't produce.

John A.

[philiparcario]

buy this amp


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=248-460

use it to run the tweeters, also buy a pair of these use these to cross to your tweeter

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=266-220

disconnect your tweeters from the crossover you have now and do the above one more thing buy two of these to hook up your current amp and the new amp

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=240-125

[farookey]

ok thanks for all this information and help, after listening closer, the tweeter is not overpowering, the 10 inch drivers are reproducing the higher notes but playing this a lot louder compared to the bass notes that are also present. i put alot of this into making these boxes look good, is a separate coaxial mid range on the side a good? Im thinking about getting the cross over lower for the driver and using a capacitor to cut off the low notes to the tweeter? any ideas from anyone?

[farookey]

Im wishing i didnt try to rebuild speakers, didnt think it would be this difficult.....but anyway, is it possible to unsolder a component in the crossover and replace with another to lower the frequency at which the speakers are cut off?

[donparsons]

Im wishing i didnt try to rebuild speakers, didnt think it would be this difficult.....but anyway, is it possible to unsolder a component in the crossover and replace with another to lower the frequency at which the speakers are cut off?

Let me try.

You have a Tuba and a picolo trying to play as an orchestra. Trying to get the picolo to sound like a trumpet by adding a resistor will not work. Trying to get the Tuba to sound like a clarinet by adding a coil and a cap won't work.

You are trying to make these speakers do things they are not capable of doing. Modifying a premade crossover is not the solution. If you worked hard to make the boxes nice, follow the advice of the very capable people who are giving you advice and try some other drivers and a custom crossover.

Trying to make these speakers work outside their range will either blow up the speakers, or worse your amp. :(

[dthomas]

Im wishing i didnt try to rebuild speakers, didnt think it would be this difficult.....but anyway, is it possible to unsolder a component in the crossover and replace with another to lower the frequency at which the speakers are cut off?

Get a 2.5mh low dcr inductor and a 4 ohm resistor. Parallel wire these two components together and place them in series with the input of your crossover.

This will roll off the highs but not the lows. Then let us know what you think. Also add an L pad to your tweeter so you can adjust the level.

Good luck,

[Some Guy]

Im wishing i didnt try to rebuild speakers, didnt think it would be this difficult...

It really isn't that difficult to get acceptable results. You do need to understand a few basic concepts but with just a little help, you can use off the shelf components to get something that will sound quite decent.

In this case, you've opted for a crossover frequency for your woofer that is too high by at least a factor of 2.5 so you need to get the crossover back down to 2KHz or so at a max. (A lot of folks will tell you that you can't run a 10 inch woofer that high but if you've ever listened to a pair of the old Large Advents or ADS L-620's, it is apparent that you can do it and get very good results.)

To use an "off the shelf" crossover, you will need to use something called an impedance compensation network (also called a Zobel) so that the load seen by the crossover is somewhere close to the load into which it was designed to work.

In this case, ballpark values for a woofer zobel to get you back to something close to an eight ohm load are going to be a capacitor of around 9-10 uf and a resistor of about 10 ohms connected together and then connected across the terminals of your woofer. No, these values are not exact and I am sure that if someone with the proper files for your drivers models these numbers, they will be off by at least 10 percent one way or the other. But the idea here is to get close.

(Parts Express has a crossover FAQ (http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover-faqs.cfm) that may help you get an idea of what all this means.)


..but anyway, is it possible to unsolder a component in the crossover and replace with another to lower the frequency at which the speakers are cut off?

Sure. In this case you'll be replacing just about everything. Parts Express has a crossover component selection guide (http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover-component-selection-guide.cfm) based on driver impedance, crossover slope and frequency that will give you "textbook values" for a simple crossover.

In this case with the Zobel network I mentioned, you'd design for a nominal 8 ohm impedance on your woofer. The tweeter you've chose is rated at a nominal 6 ohms and I'd say that isn't too far off from a value that you can use and get an acceptable result. If crossing at 2Khz, be sure to use a second order 12db/octave electrical filter to help protect the tweeter. You may also want to use an L-pad to adjust the level of the tweeter down a bit.

Don't give up. What you get will not be perfect but it can still be quite good.

[Some Guy]

Trying to make these speakers work outside their range will either blow up the speakers, or worse your amp. :(

Don't scare him off. The addiction hasn't set in yet. ;)

To be fair about it, the woofer/tweeter combo he has is going to present a fairly easy load for just about any amp so I doubt there will be any amp blowage. Now he might fry a tweeter but that isn't the end of the world.

I'm thinking he can actually coax a pretty decent sounding two way out of this Pioneer 10 inch woofer (specs say the cone diameter is around 9 inches) and this Vifa tweeter. It won't be world class and it may not win any contests, but it should be at least in the range of "OK" with an xover somewhere in the 2 to 2.5Hz ballpark, even with textbook values (so long as he Zobels the woofer.) Lord knows that back in the 70's, I cobbled together much worse and was quite happy with it at the time.

[farookey]

thanks again for all the info, gotta read through and pick the best ideas

[farookey]

another question, i probably sound stupid but whatever, what is the difference between 6 and 12db crossovers?

[Some Guy]

another question, i probably sound stupid but whatever, what is the difference between 6 and 12db crossovers?

As layman as I can make it...

A 6db is a first order crossover. It reduces power above or below the crossover frequency at a rate of 6db per octave. That is to say that for every doubling or halving of frequency, power is reduced by a factor of four. In real world applications with real world drivers, 6db crossovers are generally not realizable in practice.

12db crossovers have steeper slopes than 6db crossovers and reduces power above or below the crossover frequency at a rate of 12db/octave. That is to say that for every doubling or halving of the frequency above or below the crossover point, power is reduced by a factor of 16. In practice , 12 db crossovers are generally the minimum acoustic slopes that can be realized with real drivers.

There are a great many advantages of 12db electrical slopes over the theoretically better (but generally unrealizable) 6db slopes. Among these advantages is better protection/more power handling for tweeters (because the steeper slope cuts off low frequency energy that would be passed to the tweeter at a faster rate), less stringent requirements in terms of bandwidth for drivers above and below the crossover point and a whole load of other stuff that we'll save for advanced class. :)

For a beginner trying to build a usable two way with real world drivers, I'd generally recommend second order (12db) electrical filters (when I write filters, read "crossovers") and impedance compensation networks (Zobels) to get those filters to work more or less as they are intended. Fewer blown tweeters, easier required bandwidth on both woofer and tweeter above crossover and just generally better results.

(Something else to save for advanced class is why 12db electrical filters will almost never sum to an actual 12db/octave crossover in a real world speaker application. Driver rolloff plays a part in the final response. But don't worry about all that right now.)

[Æ]

another question, i probably sound stupid but whatever, what is the difference between 6 and 12db crossovers?

6dB. Ha!
Basically, twice as many components.
Components are capacitors and inductors, also resistors.

A first order crossover needs only one component per driver.
A driver is a tweeter or a woofer etc.
A single capacitor for the tweeter and/or a single inductor for the woofer.

Moving up to second order crossover, requires two components per each driver.

You can lower the crossover frequency to your tweeter by one octave by doubling the amount of capacitance.
For example, if the currently used capacitor is 2.5 microfarads, you would change it to a 5 microfarad capacitor. Microfarad(s) are often abbreviated as uf or mf.
You could change the capacitor completely or add an additional capacitor.
2.5 plus 2.5 equals 5

[johnnail]

ok so what can i change in the crossover to lower the crossover frequency without returning the crossovers to parts express, is this possible? the speakers overall have a great sound, just a little bit of tweaking could help. does the fact the woofers being 8 ohms compared to the 6 ohm resistance of the tweeter?

You are going to need more than a little tweeking. You need to get that crossover point at least one octave lower....more if possible. You can get a decent 1.9K crossover point going on the D25AG35 using a 3rd order filter.....8mfd series, .25mH shunt, 20mfd series.......and to attenuate to near woofer level, a simple series resistor of 8 ohms inserted in series after the first cap should do it.
As for the woofer.....I don't have any SPL files for this, just a simple t/s parameter model......to get in the ballpark, the woofer should have a second order filter on it...... 1.5mH series coil, and 12mfd/5 ohm shunt circuit....that last circuit being more of a modified value zobel than a "second order" of the filter. But this should get you close to the right ballpark for a 1.8 - 1.9K crossover point. Both drivers should be connected in positive polarity.

John

[the kid]

Let's try a different approach...

It seems something needs to be purchased and possibly altered. So let's ask - what are you comfortable spending?

I understand you want to keep your hard earned boxes. You sort of like the sound of your speakers. However, trying to make them sound decent can be a little challenging for beginners like us when so many others are offering so many advices.

So if you have a spending point, maybe a more specific solution can be found. Perhaps you could purchase a different crossover (regardless of opinions on pre made xo's - if you like the sound then it worked). Perhaps someone here can send you a list and a drawing of parts to build your own. Or maybe different speakers could be found that may work better and may pretty much fit the holes in your cabinets (boxes, enclosures...). Or there may be a low alternate set up that can be put into your enclosures if possibly you can change the front (baffle) piece that the speakers are mounted into. Your enclosures seem large enough to succesfully make a 3 way if you wanted to. And for not too much money these could sound pretty good.

So, how much can you spend? Can you return any of your items to get some money back? Tell us your budget and what you are willing to do and we will gladly give you easy advice.

[farookey]

ok so looking at this today, there seems to be more for a small midrange in the box, might be able to cut a hole for a 4 inch cut out, any suggestions for a make and model of midrange that would help the system, and what values for a 3way crossover to use?

[philiparcario]

see this link it has pictures of 6db 12db 18db and 24db

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Images/calc_cr_06db.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html&h=236&w=341&sz=1&tbnid=OaNJo5UzNO8J::&tbnh=83&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3D6%2Bdb%2Bcrossover%2Bdiagram&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=1

6db blocks 6db of sound 12 db blocks 12 db of sound. so a 6db crossover for a low pass would let 56 db of sound pass to the woofer under 5000hz and only 50db of sound over 5000hz. that is in the case of a 6 db low pass crossover that is getting 56db of full range sound

[farookey]

ok so ive been thinking, the woofer is currently putting way too much power to the high notes seeing that the 2 way cross over is at 5000. i am considering purchasing a 4 inch woofer in order to split up the frequencies, allowing the 10 inch woofer to focus on bass notes. when looking at the dayton 3 way crossovers, what is the best one to choose? cut the woofer off lower, or have the tweeter start at a higher fq?

[the kid]

The positive: you are willing to do something to your enclosure.
The negative: by simply adding a regular speaker, into a cabinet that is probably 1 big single open area on the inside, means your woofer will now be fighting with the new speaker for air space and movement - thus introducing more troubles. Believe it or not, inside of good speaker cabinets there are separate sealed-off areas for each speaker so each has its' own air to work with.

If you have only 4" of space, then you could possibly consider a "horn" midrange found mostly in the pro sound section of parts express. Something that is considered a "sealed back" speaker. Technically it has it's own enclosure. This is not the best set up either, but may ok enough with a 3-way xo.

IF you could redo the front or cut a larger hole, then check out part# 280-115. This is a sealed back midrange. Though it is 5.125" total diameter.

Then purchase the xo #260-210.

Again, you will not get the best from a plop-in-the-box design, however for learning and budget you may end up ok enough...until next time!

[brianp]

another question, i probably sound stupid but whatever, what is the difference between 6 and 12db crossovers?

The number of components or "poles" in the filter. For 6dB/octave, you have a coil in series with the woofer and a capacitor in series with the tweeter. For 12dB/octave, the lowpass filter on the woofer consists of a series coil followed by a cap shunted to ground. Vice-versa for the highpass filter. The dB/octave here refers to the ELECTRICAL transfer function of the filters only, and then only if the impedance of the drivers has been properly leveled--with a Zobel across the woofer, and at least a shunt resistor (part of the L-pad) across the tweeter. The resulting acoustical slopes may be somewhat steeper, as the electrical slopes combine with the natural rolloffs of the drivers.

Here is a link to an essay that explains the basics:

http://www.lalena.com/Audio/FAQ/XOver/

And here are links to a couple of "textbook" calculators for figuring coil and cap values:

http://www.lalena.com/Audio/Calculator/XOver/

http://www.mhsoft.nl/CrossoverNetworksForLoudspeakers.asp

[farookey]

ok so after some thinking about all the options i have come up with several solutions for this mess up.
1. change the crossover out so the woofers get cut off at 2000 hz and tweeter gets mid to high end
2. purchase a three way cross over and use a sealed midrange, or an unsealed 4 inch woofer that would fit much better into the boxes.

[curt_c]

Many good suggestions above. Dave hit a big issue on the head with his suggestion of adding the inductor and resistor before your crossover. This is called baffle step compensation, and is a likely the main reason your spakers don't sound as good as you would like.

Baffle step is a name we give to a particular diffraction effect that happens at low frequencies, that is frequenicies where their wavelengths are longer than the baffle. Below these frequencies, the bass shelves off -6 dB from the higher frequencies. This is like turning the bass all the way down on your amp. The solution is to add the circuit Dave suggested. Varying the resistor will vary the amount of compensation, so you might want to get a few different values and decide which one sounds best.

Your other issue is of course the large woofer and the high crossover frequency. Even if the woofer can somehow reproduce up to 5K, it will not do so off axis, and the midrange will sound recessed as a result. I'll call to attention the frequency response of a typical 10" paper cone woofer:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-315.pdf

Note that while it eventually makes it to 5K, it doesn't have a smooth response, and the peak around 2K will be mostly caused by distortion, and will not sound very good.

The solution here is to cross the tweeter as low as it will allow. Unfortunately, the Vifa can't cross all that low, especially with shallow slopes (Which by the way is how many dB per octave the repsonse drops off per octave.) You might consider the Seas 27TBFC/G or 27TDFC as they are capable of crossing as low as 1.5K with 4th order (24 dB / octave) slopes.

The most cost effective solution:
Try the baffle step circuit first. If that is not acceptable, then redesign your crossover for 2.5K 3rd order electical filter on the tweeter, and 2nd order electrical filter w/ zobel on the woofer. See what you think...

C

[the kid]

It sucks running into so many brick walls doesn't it? I feel the same way as I am learning.

1 more question, could you nicely fashion a (for lack of better terms) plate over the 10" hole so you could install a 8" woofer that will play up to your cross over point? There are some good sounding 8's that may surprise you when you hear them. You could save your 10"'s for another project.

[curt_c]

ok so after some thinking about all the options i have come up with several solutions for this mess up.
1. change the crossover out so the woofers get cut off at 2000 hz and tweeter gets mid to high end.

2. purchase a three way cross over and use a sealed midrange, or an unsealed 4 inch woofer that would fit much better into the boxes.

You've heard firsthand how prebuilt crossovers sound. If 2 way crossovers rarely work, prebuilt 3 ways are like poking a sharp stick in your eye. :eek: Not recommended...

As an alternative: In my post above, I almost suggested using an extended range driver to replace the tweeter. I'll be picking up a couple of these to try when they become available:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-879

The response plots I obtained from TB indicated very good off axis response, -rivaling that of a 1 inch dome tweeter, and low distortion.

Yes, they are a bit pricey, but not so much compared to purchasing a separate mid and tweeter, and associated crossover parts. TB has other more cost effective extended range drivers as well.

C

[farookey]

ok so i can fit this reasonably priced mid bass speaker in the box 295-358

if i am going to build my own three way crossover, how do i even start, do i have to do my own testing or will factory specs be sufficient inorder to make them relatively close to what they need to be?

[Some Guy]

Baffle step is a name we give to a particular diffraction effect that happens at low frequencies, that is frequenicies where their wavelengths are longer than the baffle. Below these frequencies, the bass shelves off -6 dB from the higher frequencies.

Maybe if you use rope to hang your speakers above open ground you would see 6db of baffle step. Maybe if you live in a very large anechoic chamber and that is where your speakers are located, you would see 6db of baffle step. But in real average sized rooms? No 6db of step there. The rising reverberant response and any boundary reinforcement would tend to swamp whatever BSC did exist in most listening setups anyway.

(I doubt that farookey even has his speakers positioned 3-4 feet from the nearest walls or floor. Most people don't.)

[farookey]

3 to 4 feet is a lot, a lot more space then i am willing to give up for the speakers, right now they sit a little more than a foot from the wall. can anyone tell me how to go about with making my own three way crossovers?

[HareBrained]

3 to 4 feet is a lot, a lot more space then i am willing to give up for the speakers, right now they sit a little more than a foot from the wall. can anyone tell me how to go about with making my own three way crossovers?

There are books written on this topic, and they can be found in the "arts" section. :D

As I had a very similar question a couple of months ago, you could search for my posts and read the threads in which I've posted 3 or more times. That will get you a list of tools (online and freeware) and a process for using them. From that and a good bit of research, you'll be able to build a better xo than one you can purchase. But without measuring equipment, it won't be as good as it can be.

Note that those on this forum are perfectionists. You can still build a reasonably sounding system from a canned xo, with the right components.

You could use the purchased xo with a mid and the tweeter you have and buy a second xo at about 500 hz for the mid and woofer. A sealed mid would be the best but you can also glue a Coke bottle behind the mid (inside the cabinet) to provide isolation. The TangBand extend range are good starting point as they'll probably play to 5k. The HiVi B3M/B3S/B4M are good options as well. That should give you something you can listen to. Most of the smaller drivers are not very efficient and you may need to add an L-pad (as mentioned above). YMMV.

[curt_c]

3 to 4 feet is a lot, a lot more space then i am willing to give up for the speakers, right now they sit a little more than a foot from the wall. can anyone tell me how to go about with making my own three way crossovers?

Unlike some guys, I have faith in your ability to hear when a speaker sounds bad, and I cannot assume you'd be content with poor performance. After all, if all you wanted was for the speaker to make noise, I assume you wouldn't have posted in the first place.

My explanation of baffle step mentioned 6 dB as this is the theoretical loss when the speaker is in 4pi space. The BSC circuit that was mentioned will provide about 3 dB of baffle step, and probably be acceptable with your speaker postion. Use a smaller resistor if you want less baffle step.

Unfortunately, the only way I can recommend a three way design at this point would be if an already proven design was chosen to build. Getting the crossover 'right' on a three way is exponentially more difficult than a two way, and generally ends in frustration and failure for those who try without the proper knowledge and tools.

There are some very good, and inexpensive designs available for free, just ask the members of this forum for suggestions.

C

[johnastockman]

thanks again for all the info, gotta read through and pick the best ideas


Curt is the one I'd defer to. Like he said, if you were happy with the sound quality (SQ), you would have left them alone. The other post about large Advents, the 10" woofer with a tweeter 2-way sounding good...well, the Advents used a proprietary woofer and it was a 9" in a 10" frame. They also used a tweeter that could cross lower than the one you have. Not much of a comparison, as I've had quite a few Advents (small, baby and large versions) at my home for comparison to the DIY projects I've built. Even compared to the similar Speakerlab 10" woofer 2-ways (on the left):

http://custom.smugmug.com/photos/261940287_jk265-M.jpg

the Advents were not much of a comparison to the 'labs. While the Advents sound ok by themselves, they were trumped when listened to side-by-side. The Speakerlab cabinet is of similar size to yours, but that speaker had a much better XO design for it than the Advent. That's how it is with commercial speakers, compromises have to be made when mass-producing. Don't be discouraged, you can get a better SQ out of your current cabinets. Curt knows what he's talking about...it might seem complicated right now with these terms that are being thrown around. I was in a similar position myself about 8 years ago. I couldn't figure out why the pre-made and textbook-value XO's weren't working well. You've got an idea why, now with the other posts. Look in the Project Showcase. You might find something that will work. How about this one:

http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=woodies

While it uses different drivers, it does use a pre-made 3-way XO and a 10" woofer. You could even try using your woofer and tweeter with that midrange and see what happens. No guarantees, but I'd think it'll sound better than what you've got now. Making a decent-sounding speaker is more involved than just putting some random parts together, as you've found out. But you can get better SQ from a DIY design than store-bought, for less money. Don't give up yet...we'll help get you closer. Everyone has their opinions and ideas, but try simple first. That way you aren't spending more money for not much better sound.

John A.

[toddshore]

I would recommend NOT adding another driver into the mix. Your current setup is like having a driver in each hand while trying to read a book. Now imagine adding another driver and you are juggling while trying to read a book.

The woofer and tweeter combination aren't going to be the best solution, but it may be "good enough". More importantly, "good enough" may be something that you can achieve. Trying a three way might ultimately result in a better speaker, but it ain't going to be easy and the likelihood of failure is greater.

[EDIT]
Actually, adding another driver will be like juggling while reading and holding a hot soldering iron.