Thoughts from the master builders please

[plllls]

You thoughts and opinions on:

Capacitors you have actually used in your HP&LP XO's

Dayton
MetalizedP 1%
MetalizedP 10%
F&Foil

Solen's

Jantzen's

Your opinion will be well respected.

Paul

[Wolf]

You thoughts and opinions on:

Capacitors you have actually used in your HP&LP XO's

Dayton
MetalizedP 1%
MetalizedP 10%
F&Foil

Solen's

Jantzen's

Your opinion will be well respected.

Paul

If you read my Blog here at PE, I have an article about how I feel about the hobby, and some mention of caps I have used. Typically, You can't go wrong with Jantzen or Dayton in any project. The 10% is a misprint in the catalog, as the standard line is 5% tolerance and most measure within 0.1 uF IME anyway. I honestly don't think the 1% caps are worth the extra cost due to the fairly precise standard line measurements I've taken.

I will say that Solens *can* be a little gritty, but normally I've found them to be just fine. It could've been application or something else entirely.

The F&F are great as bypass caps, or trim-caps to make your precise value required.

I've used the Jantzen CC, Z-Silver, Z-Standard, and Z-Superior, and all sound smooth. I do like the transparency I got with the Z-Silvers, but they aren't always worth the money if you use cheaper drivers. I have only used these once, and it was the 6.8uF in a tweeter circuit.

Another member has commented about using the Jantzen CC and Dayton FF in tandem with sound resulting better than the Clarity Caps he used in the same project. I have a project pending with Z-Standards and the FF as trimmers, so I will find out. I also have a set of Dayton standard 5%s for the full-value to swap in and determine.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with anything you listed above, so just use the Dayton Standards if you are budget conscious. They will serve you quite well.
Later,
Wolf

[Dirk]

And I would say that good 'ol raunchy electrolytics sound the same.

The key problem with them (IMHO) is the wide tolerance. Not only that, but they almost always are high, and very near the upper limit of that tolerance. So if you've got a design that is very sensitive to deviations in capacitance, steer away from them unless you've got a way to measure them.

[Hackomatic]

And I would say that good 'ol raunchy electrolytics sound the same.

The key problem with them (IMHO) is the wide tolerance. Not only that, but they almost always are high, and very near the upper limit of that tolerance. So if you've got a design that is very sensitive to deviations in capacitance, steer away from them unless you've got a way to measure them.



Indeed . . and their propensity to change value over time as the electrolyte dries out. Might not be an issue for years, but why tempt fate!

Nothing as debilitating as dielectric absorption of your electrolytic capacitors! :D

[Dirk]

Indeed . . and their propensity to change value over time as the electrolyte dries out. Might not be an issue for years, but why tempt fate!

Nothing as debilitating as dielectric absorption of your electrolytic capacitors! :D

As they dry out, though, the value goes *down*. So in 10 years, they might be dead on. :rolleyes:

[plllls]

So.

The #1 resonably priced ( This price range to me) Non-Botique, generic choice! Issssssssss!

#1 Jantzens
#2 Dayton FF HPass
#3 Either Dayton Metalized
#4 Solen? don't use on the HP XO?


I'm suprised with the Solen comment considering the PE description of the
"excellent high frequency characteristics". Good thing I asked.

God that was easy w/o a Vas reply.
Thanks! Mr. Wolf

[nepaeric]

I have only used the Solens, in certain uses in premium projects. I believe Solens to be top shelf. :D I also like Madisound's Carli caps, too, as they are reasonably low priced for thier quality. :cool: Most of my projects (and even some of my best speakers) have implemented ordinary Bennic NP electrolytics to great satisfaction. I have also found, in many cases, changing from these NPE's to other "premium" caps to have no significant difference or imprvement, whatsoever. ;)

You can definitely stand to save a lot of money using NPE's for 2nd order woofer circuits, midrange circuits, then use a poly or mylar on the main tweeter cap and save a small fortune, while probably noticing no real difference. :p Keep in mind, as you get up into higher values, they get much more costly, especially when you use multiples of caps in a crossover network design, and add them all up. :eek: Most designers would likely agree that a premium cap on the main tweeter circuit will yield a recognizably "brighter" sounding tweeter. ;)

I have always believed in more emphasis on buying the best quality, lowest resistance chokes you can afford.- :D Just my opinion. Given the choice to "splurge," a little, I'd sooner save my money on caps and invest that money in the best, air-core inductor coils I could get, avoiding cheaper, iron cores, (which may cause distortion) :( or inexpensive high resistance air-cores which might possibly inhibit bass driver potential. :(

Of course, every application is different, and if price were no object, I'd certainly use the better choke coils AND the Solen caps. Good luck! :)

Best Regards,
Eric

[plllls]

I absolutely agree with you on the chokes Eric. Magnetic. iron and even some laminate coils I think should be avoided. My thoughts on NPE's. They die over time and I 'm in this one for the long run.

As for caps, what I am looking for is clarity H&L pass. Brite can mean many things to many people. To me, it means unrealistic,grainy cymbal sounds and such.

Which wolf mentioned about Solen with one of his projects at least. Concerning...

In the HP branch I need a .47 trim and a 6.2uf main.

Thoughts? From you two?

Paul

[Wolf]

I absolutely agree with you on the chokes Eric. Magnetic. iron and even some laminate coils I think should be avoided. My thoughts on NPE's. They die over time and I 'm in this one for the long run.

As for caps, what I am looking for is clarity H&L pass. Brite can mean many things to many people. To me, it means unrealistic,grainy cymbal sounds and such.

Which wolf mentioned about Solen with one of his projects at least. Concerning...

In the HP branch I need a .47 trim and a 6.2uf main.

Thoughts? From you two?

Paul

I agree that "bright" isn't probably what he meant. As for the smaller air-cores, I disagree sometimes. Sometimes you require more coil-DCR to tame the rolloff or keep the impedance of the system in check. It really can make a difference.

As for steel-laminates, they will compress at VERY high power levels, and shouldn't be ruled out for cost-effectiveness. If you require a large-value in a project, no doubt it's cheaper to use a steel-cored coil, or P-core. I've used the C-coil, P-core, and steel-laminate versions without issues.

As for your trim/main, I'd use a standard Dayton or Crosscap for the main cap, and use either a Dayton F/F or Z-Superior if you can swing it for the bypass/trim cap. Personally, I think the cost-effective here is the CC and F/F combo.

However, most will tell you they don't hear a difference. In the case of telling the difference between an industrial-mylar (GE?) and a Sonicap standard-range, the difference is VERY subtle, sometimes hard to distinguish, and over about a half-hour becomes indistinguishable due to listener's fatigue. This was my experience in the cap-test I was in on. As for what I discerned about the difference, the mylar was "smoother" on guitar, or less-distinct/analytical in the plucks. Other than that, decide for yourself.
My 2c,
Wolf

[nepaeric]

Wolf is correct. I did not mean what you thought. Perhaps the word I might be fishing for, instead, would be, "smooth," or "crisp." In using the word, "Bright," I certainly did not mean "Tinny," or "Raspy." :o

Yes, Wolf is also correct, regarding inductance and he is an expert on crossovers, helping me much in the past in my own networks, so his advice is well taken and respected. :cool: True, higher DC resistance coils are sometimes needed, and frequently used on the 2nd order networks and in midrange circuits of 3 way networks. ;)

But generally, if I don't need to tame any peaks or impedence match by increasing choke resistance in the main W circuit, the lowest possible resistance, highest AWG coil you can use will likely produce a better result, in my opinion. Any unneccessary, additional BSC incorporated than necessary reduces efficiency. I nearly always use the highest guage choke I can afford, within reason. :)

IMO opinion, I will state that I have experienced a few problems with audible distortion using iron cores, :( (to save money) in the past, although, I have not used any powder core chokes. Those problems were immediately, and noticeably resolved upon switching with good quality air core inductors. :D Iron cores, historically, have been notorius of producing a certain level of distortion, whether it be miniscule or not. :(

Regarding caps, Wolf, would you not say the most critical would be the main one within the tweeter circuit? I've always felt that ordinary NPE's generally will accomplish the job quite well for all the 2nd order and midrange duties, while saving a good deal, as well. Would you not agree?

I've often wondered why Carli caps never seem to get much attention, as they're priced right, seem very reasonably affordable, and are of a better quality. :confused:

Best Regards,
Eric

[Wolf]

Wolf is correct. I did not mean what you thought. Perhaps the word I might be fishing for, instead, would be, "smooth," or "crisp." In using the word, "Bright," I certainly did not mean "Tinny," or "Raspy." :o

Yes, Wolf is also correct, regarding inductance and he is an expert on crossovers, helping me much in the past in my own networks, so his advice is well taken and respected. :cool: True, higher DC resistance coils are sometimes needed, and frequently used on the 2nd order networks and in midrange circuits of 3 way networks. ;)

But generally, if I don't need to tame any peaks or impedence match by increasing choke resistance in the main W circuit, the lowest possible resistance, highest AWG coil you can use will likely produce a better result, in my opinion. Any unneccessary, additional BSC incorporated than necessary reduces efficiency. I nearly always use the highest guage choke I can afford, within reason. :)

IMO opinion, I will state that I have experienced a few problems with audible distortion using iron cores, :( (to save money) in the past, although, I have not used any powder core chokes. Those problems were immediately, and noticeably resolved upon switching with good quality air core inductors. :D Iron cores, historically, have been notorius of producing a certain level of distortion, whether it be miniscule or not. :(

Regarding caps, Wolf, would you not say the most critical would be the main one within the tweeter circuit? I've always felt that ordinary NPE's generally will accomplish the job quite well for all the 2nd order and midrange duties, while saving a good deal, as well. Would you not agree?

I've often wondered why Carli caps never seem to get much attention, as they're priced right, seem very reasonably affordable, and are of a better quality. :confused:

Best Regards,
Eric

True- BSC does take sensitivity away. But- you do need some in most applications. I don't usually go for 6dB comp, but more like 3-4dB comp. You do mean sensitivity, not efficiency.

I've used iron-core toroidal RF-chokes in tweeter circuits without dilemma, some have been 22-24AWG too!

In the signal path, higher-grade are better, and shunts don't matter as much. I've used NPE's for LCR's when large-values have been needed, and even NPE/poly in parallel for more cost-effective designs. The triangular-prism "Deuteriums" I built were this way, and did not suffer sound issues. If I can swing a mylar or poly in the midrange as well, I will. The woofers I don't think matter as much.

Carli's are a mylar/polyester cap, and are a great-value cap for less money. The main reason you don't see them here is that MAD sells them. PE products are more prevalent here, even though both distributor's merch gets discussed.

I'm glad you think highly of me to call me an "expert on crossovers", but I don't know everything. I can model pretty well, and understand a lot, but I wouldn't call myself an "expert". Thanks for the compliments!
Later,
Wolf

[nepaeric]

Indeed! Wolf, you are very knowledgeable about the subject, and have helped me on networks in the past. I have had some different experiences with chokes and caps, but your insight, experience and expertise is usually very helpful in deciding. :)

Whenever I can save a few bucks using cost effective components, I will, and in many cases I have found NPE very satisfactory for a lot of applications. Especially where it counts most, such as when using the really big values. :rolleyes: Savings can be substantial, and turn an otherwise expensive project :eek: into an affordable one. :) Honestly, I never use anything less than a poly, metalized or mylar on the main circuit of the tweeter, and almost always use NPE's for shunts and MR's. ;)

Yes, Carli caps are really hard to beat, and a bargain. :cool: I will use those for most of my projects, and have been very satisfied. :D

I have often wondered how p-cores fare against the old-style I-cores.- Sometimes they appear attractive when pricing high guage AWG, large value air cores. :confused:

Best Regards,
Eric

[plllls]

Funny, I'm over at Mad sound studying caps and you two are talkin about em here.

BTW. PE is not the first place I started window shopping. They just have a great forum too use.

I feel the love between you 2 now. Sounds like one of our partys here early in the AM. Back to the subject.

You two are smarter than I ever want to be with XO designs.

The Clari cap is interesting. I wonder where they get their film from...

It says they use *** type film, not that they acually manufacture it, like Bennic for example. Which looks like PE's and Sounders. Hmmmmm

Clari's, PE's: FF's and MP's and the Janzen all look like a safe bet and I'm sure to feel comfortable with all of them.

It's very cool that someone has used and gives their experiences with products freely so I don't have to buy a wad of varios brands caps and experiment on my own. THAT'S when it gets expensive.

Thank you so much.

Paul