How Does Behringer Do It?

[Hackomatic]

Behringer continues to amaze me . . .

The UPS man brought all sorts of goodies y-day. An EP2500 for myself and a stack of A500 reference amps plus 6 pairs of TRUTH B2030P monitors for a 6 studio build I have coming up. It’s the 1st time I’ve bought their speakers so I went strictly on price and reviews. I’ve used the JBL Control 5 monitors in the past for studio projects, but I’m kinda soured on JBL right now because of the build quality from their Taiwan constructor and the prices have skyrocketed. So, I bought the Behringer’s. I know there are those who say it's less than quality, but I have yet do be disappointed by any of their offerings.

I listened to a set last evening and must admit, they sound every bit as good as the Control 5s . . In fact they don’t have that annoying “ring” as I call it from the polypropylene cabinets like the JBLs. The cabinets are built like Sherman tanks from thick MDF. At $149 a pair, I just don’t know how they do it!

. . but I hope they keep doin’ it!

[tktran]

Do you have any facilities to take measurements of the 2030P?

[Hackomatic]

Do you have any facilities to take measurements of the 2030P?

Well . . yeah . . BUT, I currently don't have it setup. It would take me awhile to get it all together. I have an ECM8000, a Mackie DFX mixer and True Audios spec an software, though I might be better served to try and learn the RoomEQWizard software.

What in particular are you interested in . . an FR graph?

[Deward Hastings]

Yep. I'm big on the B2030A too, because I like not having to rack another amp, and being able to plug it into . . . anything . . . and go, and the comprehensive BSC correction, which makes it useable in almost any placement, and . . . and . . . and, and all of that comes for only 75 bucks more per box. And good as the "P" is I think the "A" sounds even better.

They set a really high bar for low end loudspeakers, and would be hard to match for two or three times the price in parts alone.

Unbeatable.

[WmAx]

No kidding on the quality of those B2030P units for the money. I don't think they can be copied for the price DIY unless you used closeout drivers and left over scraps to build the cabinets to reduce your costs. They also use only MKT film caps; not an electrolytic in sight. The inductors are a heavy gauge; not the undersized things you usually get in low priced speakers. Woofers have very large motors(unusually so) and cast aluminum frames. The cabinets are 0.75" MDF on sides, and 1.25" MDF front baffle. I have extensively measured these, and they are well done. Overall flat response, no broad peaks, and even the bass has a flat curve, not the exaggerated midbass peak that consumer speakers will often do to give the impression of 'more' bass. Waterfall shows a well designed crossover/driver compliment with no significant energy storage in the upper mid or treble band, except at 23kHz, which seems to be the metal dome tweeter's diaphragm resonance. The waveguide on this speaker is not quite the same as the traditional waveguide. It is angled to increase dispersion. For example, at 15kHz and 60 degrees, the treble is only 3-4dB lower in level as compared to on axis. The power response of this speaker is unusually good. For all intents and purposes, the response from 0 to +/- 60 degrees horizontal is identical within 2-3 dB through the entire audible passband. By +/- 75 degrees, the treble band over 8kHz finally begins to drop in power ratio compared to the rest of the bandwidth.

There are some problems with this device. They did not use a seal between where the tweeter mounts to the waveguide from behind, providing an air leak/breach. Easy enough to fix, though, using some of that speaker caulk rope the PE used to distribute with drivers and that you can still purchase. Some units have also been known to have vibration or rattle problems. I traced down two primary sources. One is the magnetic shield can on the woofer. Fixed by applying a generous amount of liquid super glue in the seam where the shield meets the motor. Another source is the ports. They are glued to the inside of the cabinet with heat glue, and I found one to be loose. Just use some more heatglue, or whatever adhesive you want to use, and re-secure if you find one loose.

These are ported speakers, but the ports are not used to provide extended bass output... strange I know... but they are tuned to around 45Hz..... you can seal the vents and the bass output has virtually no change. I am not even sure of the reason/purpose of the vents in this speaker.

The woofers have a relatively high resonant frequency(an extremely stiff surround is used on these), and you really can't expect much bass extension unless you are willing to change out the surround.

The interior acoustic dampenig is not sufficient; but neither is it in most DIY built speakers.....

The cabinets are a little bit less lively than most, but still far too resonant, and no doubt are contributing substantial coloration, just like most cabinets, hi-fi or DIY.....

-Chris

[jkrutke]

I've been eying up those B2030P speakers for a while. Sooner or later I'll get a pair in to measure. Been eying up a few bargain Polks and Infinities too. Economies of scale and cheap manufacturing are hard to beat in the DIY world.

[donc]

i don't know how they do it either but i hope they keep it up , let the idiots pay 2 grand for the same thing you get for three hundred shipped . i'll be using powered units for rears for ht ,spending the difference between a upgraded 5 channel instead of on a 7 channel , an amp that comes w/spkrs,speakers that come w/amp , for that price---unbeatable ! donc

[madmallard]

i believe they outsource very little, they have their own manufacturing/design/test center in china where they produce everything themselves.

[WmAx]

The last poster is correct. There is a short factory tour video on youtube that shows the *massive* manufacturing facility. In the video, they showed them making virtually every product and component in that factory, including the drivers. I guess the only parts they outsource are things like ICs, resistors and switches and potentiometers(which btw, are usually high grade Alps potentiometers and rotary switches in the few products I have peeked in). The facility was surrounded by the housing for the employees. It was so large that it is apparently referred to as 'Behringer City'.

-Chris

[vasyachkin]

I listened to a set last evening and must admit, they sound every bit as good as the Control 5s . . In fact they don’t have that annoying “ring” as I call it from the polypropylene cabinets like the JBLs. The cabinets are built like Sherman tanks from thick MDF. At $149 a pair, I just don’t know how they do it!

i keep telling you people that when it comes to small 2-ways DIY is NOT a better value than commercial speakers.

but you just don't want to hear about it.

ignorance is bliss.

impossible to understand anything in this world without understanding the psychology of human weakness.

[Dirk]

The facility was surrounded by the housing for the employees. It was so large that it is apparently referred to as 'Behringer City'.

-Chris

So how do they pronounce that in Chinese? :D

So far for me, Behringer has been two-for-two. I've been thinking about one of their smaller ~$75 practice crates.

[Paul Carmody]

i believe they outsource very little, they have their own manufacturing/design/test center in china where they produce everything themselves.
Where is the facility where they copy other companies' rack gear and amplifiers verbatim? ;)

I dunno. maybe that's the "old" Behringer, cloning gear made by DBX, Crown, Alesis, Neumann, even Electro Harmonix. And I'm probably not in a position to criticize, as I've bought Behringer gear knowing they were clones... money talks, I guess :o

These monitors are interesting, though, and perhaps the R&D was their own this time. Chris, would you mind posting your measurements? Personally, I have no need for another set of studio monitors, but I know a few musicians who could REALLY use some, but are total cheapskates.

[vasyachkin]

cloning gear made by DBX, Crown, Alesis, Neumann, even Electro Harmonix.

when Behringer clones DBX you get the clone at 1/2 price off.

when Lexus clones Mercedes you don't get any discount.

you may think that Behringers of the world kill off the innovators by putting them out of business but i think the opposite is also true - they force the innovators to innovate more vigorously.

we need Lexus to keep the pressure on the germans.

[WmAx]

So how do they pronounce that in Chinese? :D

So far for me, Behringer has been two-for-two. I've been thinking about one of their smaller ~$75 practice crates.

Their guitar products were one of the few things that I thought were NOT a good value.

They have winner and loser products. The guitar products are more so in the loser area I think.....maybe not all of them... but of the ones I have seen/tried.... they are nothing special in terms of value.

You want a great value practice cab? Look on eBay for a used Johnson JT50; give it 2 or 3 weeks, and you can probably score one for $120-$160. It's a 12" cab with decent modelling(about inline with Line 6, maybe a little bit worse), but it does not have any real high gain distortions; pretty much light to moderate gain distortion types; but what it's got are pretty neat,

-Chris

[WmAx]

Where is the facility where they copy other companies' rack gear and amplifiers verbatim? ;)

I dunno. maybe that's the "old" Behringer, cloning gear made by DBX, Crown, Alesis, Neumann, even Electro Harmonix. And I'm probably not in a position to criticize, as I've bought Behringer gear knowing they were clones... money talks, I guess :o

These monitors are interesting, though, and perhaps the R&D was their own this time. Chris, would you mind posting your measurements? Personally, I have no need for another set of studio monitors, but I know a few musicians who could REALLY use some, but are total cheapskates.

Thing is, I see Behringer seems to be using quite often better parts and construction than most name brands that sell anywhere near the same price point as the competing product. Sure, when you a case where Behringer is selling a really close 'rip off' design for 1/2 or cheaper than the original, there may be some quality cuts. I'll use the EP2500; basically using the same circuits as the QSC RMX2450 or whatever. In this case, the 'copy' is so close in quality, it's not even funny. They both use high quality parts/components; neither one if cheaping out in the parts used. The only quibble I have heard, is that the Behringer's wiring connectors inside don't look to be quite as nice as the QSCs.... no big deal... the ones in the EP2500 are fine, I checked them. The Behringer even goes so far as to copy the mil-spec PCB boards used the QSC... providing two identical trace layers with double soldered joints to ever component... so that if one board gets damaged/cracked from impact/whatever, there is a completely redundant board. Quite the feature, and one that I wager would save them a bit to leave out on their 'copy'. Another quibble is the transformer in the Behringer looks to be an inch or two smaller in diamter as compared to the QSCs..... but I am not sure of the issue.... or the actual differences in output. The EP2500, FYI, when measured by credible third party on AVS forum, measures up there with the best of them. The EP2500 has almost the same factory performance specs as the legendary ultra expensive Crown K2. The EP2500 beats it in every measured performance parametersSNR, THD, actual power output into a load, etc.), actually meeting specs closer than the Crown. And this no budget line Crown. Check out the price of a new K2. Ouch.

The low priced Crowns like the XLS series, which actually still cost more than Behringers, have build quality that is substantially lower, from chassis quality/strength to jack/post quality to PCB and internal design quality; on every front the Behringers are substantially better. Now, don't get me wrong, the Crowns still perform great. I have a couple of Crowns, along with Behringers and Yamaha pro amps(btw, the Yamaha stuff is some fine fine stuff and if you can justify the hefty price tags, I highly recommend them). The Crowns perform fine, no problem there. These build quality issues I talk about come down to durability for moving around. The QSCs, Behringers, etc,; have build type that suggests they can take much physical abuse. The Crown XLS however, looks to be ill suited for portable applications. They look like standard consumer grade amplifiers inside. Regular single-soldered, single trace boards, over-sized PCBs just begging to flex under shock/drop making easier to break. And perhaps the most stupid thing: the heatsinks are attached to the top of the PCBs.. not attached to the chassis: in a drop/shock, these big hunks of metal are going to apply large levels of force to the PCB, increasing chance of fracture/cracking.

-Chris

[WmAx]

Undefinition, here are the B2030P measurements that you requested.

I believe these were 1.5 Meter distance for the most part, if memory serves me...

Here is on-axis FR, then CSD(I scale the CSD plots to the same time window and averaged signal to floor range(approx. 26-27dB actual range) that Stereophile almost always uses, so that stuff can be compared to a large known database of commercial speakers. Finally, I have off axis, from 0 to 90 degrees horizontal, in 15 degree increments:

http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/behringer_2030P/fr_waterfall_detail_offaxis_1M.gif

Next, here is a smoothed sweep to show LF response(there is also a THD plot on here, but that was an automated generation at low SPL, probably around 80dB at the most. So don't go by this THD plot. I did take full THD plots vs. SPL, but I have not prepared the over-lapping graphs yet for this product:
http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/behringer_2030P/fr_fullrange_averaged_1M.gif

BTW, another stand out product is the KRK Rokit5. It is a powered active 2 way studio monitor. It's about 300/pair, and it's performance blew me away for the price. It also has one of most inert cabinets I have found on a low priced speaker like this. Very low cabinet resonance - much lower than the Behringer B2030P, which in turn is somewhat of an improvement on many commercial bookshelf speakers. I have full measurement data for the KRK if you wish to see it. The KRK would make an ultimate computer speaker for many people, I beleive. And no way could it be DIYed for cheaper, not unless once again, you used a lot of pre-existing parts that you had laying around already that happened to be correct for use.

-Chris

-

[AJ]

Originally, the EP2500 used an undersized transformer compared to its close brother the RMX2450. I'm guessing for the first year or two of production. Now, the difference is very small between them.

Also, the actual circuit design these amps use is very straightforward, simple, and effective. Damn near every serious pro audio amp builder has used a similar design at one point or another, so the EP2500 is not a clone. It doesn't use the same components or PCB's, but it is ridiculously close in quality. Behringer designers definitely looked very hard at the RMX designs when they conceived the EP series. Behringer still has a bad name from all the junk they spewed out in the early days because they outsourced everything. Now, according to that factory tour video on youtube anyway, they make pretty much everything for themselves. Everything from the speaker cones to the pcbs.

Basically, if you don't like Behringer, fine. Don't buy the stuff. If you are doing PA setups or renting gear or recording a album that will sell thousands you're making enough money to afford QSC or whatever brand name makes you happy.

[Paul Carmody]

Thing is, I see Behringer seems to be using quite often better parts and construction than most name brands that sell anywhere near the same price point as the competing product. Sure, when you a case where Behringer is selling a really close 'rip off' design for 1/2 or cheaper than the original, there may be some quality cuts. I'll use the EP2500; basically using the same circuits as the QSC RMX2450 or whatever. In this case, the 'copy' is so close in quality, it's not even funny. They both use high quality parts/components; neither one if cheaping out in the parts used.
Naw, guys, don't misunderstand me. I own some of these Behringer "clone" products, and I would never call them "cheap rip offs." Fact is: they do copy existing pro audio gear, but the build quality is very, very good. If the clones were cheap rip-offs, I would have just saved up my nickels and dimes and bought the real thing for 2x or 3x the price.

But I'm just a little home-studio guy. If I were doing live sound [again], owned a commercial recording studio, or had a rental business, I would definitely have to spring for the real things. Clients pay big money for pro audio; they want to see the real thing. They might even know that Behringer makes identical products of high quality... but they'd also know I'd spent a fraction of the price. For their big dollars, they want that "no expenses spared" feeling.

... I'm just stunned that Behringer gets away with copying other companies' designs, with no legal action (that I've heard of).

[Deward Hastings]

... I'm just stunned that Behringer gets away with copying other companies' designs, with no legal action (that I've heard of).
Most of the time it's because it's a copy of a copy . . . or a "design" that is (or might as well be) right off some application note. There is nothing patentable or protectable about an obvious design implementation, so in most cases it comes down to cost of manufacture, marketing, and how much the customer is willing to pay for a "designer" name tag and the (typically) higher overhead costs of a "small" company.

Granted someone, somewhere, has to pay for new design, and "advancing the art" . . . but nine tenths of what passes for "design" is either just re-inventing the wheel or finding a new way to ignore real advances that make the "old way" obsolete, however cleverly implemented.

Of course Behringer builds lots of stuff that doesn't represent any "design" at all . . . they just make the junk because customers seem to want to buy it . . .

[brianpowers27]

It seems to me like they have a couple of reasons for keeping the price low.

--Economy of scale!
--Bad reputation
--Mediocre QC..

I have owned the guitar line products. I owned an amp that had very cheap plastic knobs. It broke quickly in transport. It was a value but too flimsy for portable use. The Earlier multi-effects pedal my friend owns is also kind of hard to use(Layout etc.) and has a cheap feeling to the plastic foot pedals. I own a 12 channel mixer and I think it is pretty good. It is probably just as good as a higher priced mackie in most respects.

[WmAx]

I have owned the guitar line products. I owned an amp that had very cheap plastic knobs. It broke quickly in transport. It was a value but too flimsy for portable use. The Earlier multi-effects pedal my friend owns is also kind of hard to use(Layout etc.) and has a cheap feeling to the plastic foot pedals. I own a 12 channel mixer and I think it is pretty good. It is probably just as good as a higher priced mackie in most respects.

Yeah, I noticed that most of their guitar stuff was not the same level of quality as some of their other gear. I was not impressed at all with their guitar gear/amps/pedals. Whilst I was very impressed with the DCX2496 crossover, or even the cx3400 crossover, which is chock full of parts that just don't belong in a low priced device like this.

-Chris

[lunchmoney]

From everything I've heard, Behringer is very hit and miss... it's all low-priced, and sometimes it's low-priced junk... so I find it very difficult to trust them. I worry about long term reliability... all it takes is one crappy little electrical component to burn out in six months, and you've got buyer's remorse.

Clearly some of it is very nice... but how do you know?

[WmAx]

a I worry about long term reliability... all it takes is one crappy little electrical component to burn out in six months, and you've got buyer's remorse.



But that is the same risk with any brand. In the specific products that I recommend from Behringer, I have personally checked them, and these products use the same quality components inside that units costing several times the amount also use. It seems the risk is not from component quality(at least not in the products that I specifically recommend), but from QC of the soldering or other PCB details, which appears to be the single biggest source of complaints I have seen in the past. Such as a few years ago, the DCX2496 had a known problem where the factory was leaving the insertion mount parts on the back I/O board with the through pieces not cut short enough, sometimes shorting on the metal chassis. That was later corrected, and just one issue, but an example I thought I should list in regards to QC.

-Chris

[Deward Hastings]

But that is the same risk with any brand.
Yep, and in that regard Behringer is no worse than many "respected" brand names. The computer world has exploding capacitors, graphics processors that toast themselves, CPUs with a built in arithmetic error . . . and the cost-more-than-my-ORION speakers that I used to own (from a manufacturer soon to be toured by a DIY gathering) came with three joints in one of the crossovers unsoldered.

Twisted, not soldered . . . (as in Bond, James Bond). Assembled a bit too close to the distillery, perhaps. Excellent cabinet work, though. Looked great on the outside. Twenty dollar tweeter (if that) . . .

And you don't imagine that any of the drivers or caps that we use in our DIY speakers are made in the USA, do you?

[lunchmoney]

I guess I'm just jaded from dj-ing... I've used a few behringer mixers before, and they were absolute garbage.

[wg_ski]

I guess I'm just jaded from dj-ing... I've used a few behringer mixers before, and they were absolute garbage.

Mpst DJ mixers are absoulte garbage, Behringer or not. Unless you spend at least a grand on a nice A&H. Don't have much faith in Numark anymore either.

Some of Behringer's stuff still has fatal flaws. The UB802 everyone uses for their measurement systems doesn't like to drive unbalanced lines. It will, but mine and a friend's have BOTH had the cold side driver go out from driving 1/4" TS for extended periods of time. Never had a dbx anything do that. The little Mackie that it's copied from may very well do the same thing.

Recently bought a CX3400 crossover for my processor rack (to be able to do multi-band compression). Time will tell if it's any good or not.

[lunchmoney]

I've used some sub-$1000 and even sub-$500 Rane, Pioneer, and Numark mixers that were quite good... far better than the Behringer mixers I was referring to.

Depends on your standards I guess.

[JRT]

The last poster is correct. There is a short factory tour video on youtube that shows the *massive* manufacturing facility. In the video, they showed them making virtually every product and component in that factory, including the drivers. I guess the only parts they outsource are things like ICs, resistors and switches and potentiometers(which btw, are usually high grade Alps potentiometers and rotary switches in the few products I have peeked in). The facility was surrounded by the housing for the employees. It was so large that it is apparently referred to as 'Behringer City'.

-Chris

In case anyone might be interested... The first page of results from a Google search on "Behringer City" turned up this description:
http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/news/news-story/news_id/793

And it turned up this post which includes a couple of news-reel style videos.
http://www.sequencer.de/blog/?p=4219

[madmallard]

I guess I'm just jaded from dj-ing... I've used a few behringer mixers before, and they were absolute garbage.

Was it battle style?

I find that most of those have long term reliability issues in exchanged for consistant live performance, like x-faders and such. It didn't matter what brand, I was always hearing performers complain about them, but truth be told, battle mixers are asked to work in BRUTAL conditions...

[Prowse]

Undefinition, here are the B2030P measurements that you requested.

I believe these were 1.5 Meter distance for the most part, if memory serves me...

Very interesting readings. I'm looking to put together a home cinema and audio room in a small bedroom (2.3x2.85m). How do you think the 2030P's would work in a small home cinema environment with a REL Q150e sub bass unit?

Other speakers in consideration would be Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 series or Kef Q10i's.

Thanks in advance for your advice.