Car audio that actually works?

[Texan]

I am wondering if anyone has recommendations for replacements of a pair of 6½” tweeter combos that will actually sound ok. I have never had any luck with automotive aftermarket speakers. I think that they rely heavily on well damped cone materials. Then you put in a “nicer” you know a not paper one speaker that sounds like a Tupperware bowl. I am afraid loud colors and plastic chrome are a problem too. I have no problem with paper cones.

Any advice on how to achieve a reasonable performance would be appreciated.

I believe that some sort of crossover could be the answer. The existing are “component” type, so presumably they have some minimal crossover.

I just saw the vifa 6½ coaxial in the PE flyer maybe it could be a starting point?

[dthomas]

I am wondering if anyone has recommendations for replacements of a pair of 6½” tweeter combos that will actually sound ok. I have never had any luck with automotive aftermarket speakers. I think that they rely heavily on well damped cone materials. Then you put in a “nicer” you know a not paper one speaker that sounds like a Tupperware bowl. I am afraid loud colors and plastic chrome are a problem too. I have no problem with paper cones.

Any advice on how to achieve a reasonable performance would be appreciated.

I believe that some sort of crossover could be the answer. The existing are “component” type, so presumably they have some minimal crossover.

I just saw the vifa 6½ coaxial in the PE flyer maybe it could be a starting point?

I have had great luck with the TB W5704D and the Dayton 3/4" neo. I used 3rd order electrical network and cross them at around 3000Hz. No need for baffle step. I use an NPE cap to high pass the combo at about 100Hz and let a sub handle everything below that. I have done a couple of these systems. You have to make your own mounting I did one in a Ford in place of the factory ovals and another in a Chevy pickup in the doors using the stock holes and an adapter plate I made out of 1/2" mdf for the woofer.

It is a car audio but both were smooth and pleasant to listen to. High passing the TB/Dayton combo lets you push reasonable spl without the woofer getting pushed too hard in the lower range. Probably won't win any auto sound spl awards but at reasonable levels the sound is far superior to factory or aftermarket offerings.

[Texan]

Did you use an 8ohm speaker in an auto application? I am afraid I need to be closer to original sensitivity. There will be no sub, so hopefully I can get a little lower than 100hz I do think this solution would work with the exception of the above.

[Texan]

I am still searching for more options for this. This is not for my vehicle. A store bought item or diy is an option. It does have to fit under the factory grill. 2006 Silverado door

[Æ]

I am still searching for more options for this. This is not for my vehicle. A store bought item or diy is an option. It does have to fit under the factory grill. 2006 Silverado door

I was working on someones 2002 Silverado. The stock door speakers weren't any good and we replaced them with some POLK car audio speakers. The sound was better, but the main problem is that the original speakers are mounted in the doors, but the door panel that also forms a grille for the speakers is a inch away floating out in front of the speakers. I tried one speaker mounted directly to the plastic door panel, which sounded much clearer, except for now the door panel needs to be braced because it's thin flimsy plastic and you lose bass. It wasn't designed to support the weight of a speaker. The next step is to build a sort of tunnel/baffle to support the door panel against the actual steel of the door itself. This would stiffen the plastic panel against the solid part of the door and baffle the speaker for better bass. Hope you understand what I'm trying to explain.

[dthomas]

Did you use an 8ohm speaker in an auto application? I am afraid I need to be closer to original sensitivity. There will be no sub, so hopefully I can get a little lower than 100hz I do think this solution would work with the exception of the above.


Yeah I used an 8 ohm speaker in an auto application power is cheap so no need to fear 8 ohm drivers. I also used an external power amp and bridged the subwoofer across the L-R channels. I did a 1st order high pass to the L-R speakers and 2nd order low pass to the sub both at 100Hz. Just make sure you choose a mains and sub combo that is fairly close in sensitivity.

Dave

[Texan]

AE,
I know what you mean. I am hoping I can figure out how to mount the speakers better as I go.

dthomas,
Now that I reread what I replied with it seems critical. “Oops” I apologize and thanks for replying positively.
Your solution seems like just that a solution. Unfortunately we are restricted to replacing only the door speakers, and leaving everything else factory stock. I figure that a speaker somewhat designed to function properly will surely be better than one that is supposed to be cheap or look cool.
I think GM had some quality control issues with the door speakers of their trucks. I had one fail me, and this one belongs to my father. I was pretty sure when I got in there I would find the bass control maxed, but it wasn’t and I don’t think that he messed with it. Mine had never moved more than one notch passed the center. I had another friend with the same body style truck and one of his door speakers failed. None of the three of us had ever had a factory speaker fail before. I wonder if this is what AE experienced also.
I have known a few people who replaced their factory speakers and then had a system that was not easy to listen to. I need to be sure that whatever goes back is easy to listen to. It would also be nice if when we were finished we felt that a sound improvement was made.

[Æ]

AE,
I know what you mean. I am hoping I can figure out how to mount the speakers better as I go.

dthomas,
Now that I reread what I replied with it seems critical. “Oops” I apologize and thanks for replying positively.
Your solution seems like just that a solution. Unfortunately we are restricted to replacing only the door speakers, and leaving everything else factory stock. I figure that a speaker somewhat designed to function properly will surely be better than one that is supposed to be cheap or look cool.
I think GM had some quality control issues with the door speakers of their trucks. I had one fail me, and this one belongs to my father. I was pretty sure when I got in there I would find the bass control maxed, but it wasn’t and I don’t think that he messed with it. Mine had never moved more than one notch passed the center. I had another friend with the same body style truck and one of his door speakers failed. None of the three of us had ever had a factory speaker fail before. I wonder if this is what AE experienced also.
I have known a few people who replaced their factory speakers and then had a system that was not easy to listen to. I need to be sure that whatever goes back is easy to listen to. It would also be nice if when we were finished we felt that a sound improvement was made.

We didn't experience any failures, it was just a matter of muffled/poor sound. We want(ed) to squeeze some fidelity out of the door speakers.

[Max_Andrews]

My friend recently dropped in a pair of infinity speakers into his rear deck and they sound quite good. They're not the high-end ones - just gray cones with center-mounted tweeters slightly angled to one side.

[philiparcario]

I am wondering if anyone has recommendations for replacements of a pair of 6½” tweeter combos that will actually sound ok. I have never had any luck with automotive aftermarket speakers. I think that they rely heavily on well damped cone materials. Then you put in a “nicer” you know a not paper one speaker that sounds like a Tupperware bowl. I am afraid loud colors and plastic chrome are a problem too. I have no problem with paper cones.

Any advice on how to achieve a reasonable performance would be appreciated.

I believe that some sort of crossover could be the answer. The existing are “component” type, so presumably they have some minimal crossover.

I just saw the vifa 6½ coaxial in the PE flyer maybe it could be a starting point?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-274

vifa 26 a pair should be fine. they are 4 ohm and 88 sensitive. should play down to 60 or 70hz

[philiparcario]

use this inductor

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=255-202&DID=7

and bypass the cap with this

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-420

the cap and the inductor come to 5 dollars 31 a speaker

[Texan]

Thanks this looks simple enough for sure! Those are the vifa’s I was wandering about. I wondered if a simple crossover like that would do. Are you saying use both caps parallel for a combined capacitance or remove one and use the other?

[philiparcario]

it says you can bypass the 2.2 cap so bypass it. I think you can leave it on but use a different set of leads to bypass it. you should be okay with a simple x over as long as you are using the factory head amp. If you want a big amp more crossover is needed.

[Texan]

Would you guys recommend the vifa coaxial over a setup like this?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=267-281

[hershey]

Just a thought. Hopefully I don't get jumped on for this...

With your new replacements I would line the metal door panels that the speaker will be mounted to with dynamat or one of its many cheaper competitors like phatmat. Make sure its the tar like stuff with the foil on one side. If you use phatmat go a couple of layers thick. In my experience the density this adds to the panel helps provide a much less acoustically active mounting for the driver. When I installed the stuff I immediately had much more low end and slightly clearer mids.

I think applying something like this will help you in the bass ranges of whatever system you choose. Also, as an added benefit, if you get carried away and stick the stuff on the inside of your outer door panels, you will lower the road noise you hear, making it so you don't have to push the system as hard to hear the music.

It's not a magic bullet, but it sure made a difference, particularly in the low end, for me.

[philiparcario]

Would you guys recommend the vifa coaxial over a setup like this?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=267-281

the vifa is easy to do. the pioneer needs 4 cutouts. the pioneer says it reachs 31hz but does not say how loud. it offers no t/s specs so i can say it may play to 60 not 30. i have done both installs with simalar drivers. if you are not adding lots of amps and a new head unit buy the vifa.

[Texan]

Just a thought. Hopefully I don't get jumped on for this...

With your new replacements I would line the metal door panels that the speaker will be mounted to with dynamat or one of its many cheaper competitors like phatmat. Make sure its the tar like stuff with the foil on one side. If you use phatmat go a couple of layers thick. In my experience the density this adds to the panel helps provide a much less acoustically active mounting for the driver. When I installed the stuff I immediately had much more low end and slightly clearer mids.

I think applying something like this will help you in the bass ranges of whatever system you choose. Also, as an added benefit, if you get carried away and stick the stuff on the inside of your outer door panels, you will lower the road noise you hear, making it so you don't have to push the system as hard to hear the music.

It's not a magic bullet, but it sure made a difference, particularly in the low end, for me.

I think this is a very good idea

[Texan]

I am trying to get a few more options to choose from before I do anything. This truck has separate tweeter and woofer locations, so a coaxial is not necessary. It seems like it would be an advantage to have the tweeter a little higher since the woofer is mounted so low already. Surely I could benefit from a steeper crossover, even if I don’t add more power?

I saw Brian Steel’s silver flute install on his sight. I left him a visitor message to check this out.

I forgot Nick was a car guy also, so maybe he will have experience to share.

I also saw these over at mad http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_245_318&products_id=8472
Any opinion on them would be appreciated.

I think every option here so far has been very good, and thanks for posing them.
Obviously it takes a lot to satisfy my curiosities. I want to make sure that I error on the side of too good. That way I don’t have to do it over.

[philiparcario]

are you adding an amp? if no amp the madisound stuff is over kill. I would buy the vifa coaxial and bypass the tweeters. I think the woofer end of then are nice for the price. then I would add these do' not worry about the low price they are good

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=275-035
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=275-030
I put them in my chevy and I put in coaxials instead of woofers. I crossed to the pe tweeters at 10000 and to the coaxial tweeter at 6000 you could do the same use a 3.3 cap to the vifa and a 2 cap to the daytons. some thumbnails

[Brian Steele]

I saw Brian Steel’s silver flute install on his sight. I left him a visitor message to check this out.

Saw your note. The Silver Flutes are a good choice. Very neutral (compared to the previous drivers that I've used). If I was doing this again, I'd properly go for a simpler x-over and rely more on Active EQ/Filtering. Even better, I'd drive the tweeters and midranges separately (one channel per) and use EQ on all channels to shape the response.

The points on applying sound damping material to the doors are good ones. I've found that the sound damping material doesn't as much block noise as it damps sympathetic vibrations. In any case, the end result is a clearer midbass. In my last car, I actually bonded 3/4 ply shaped and routed panels into many of the gaps in the door's inner frame to further damp vibrations and clear up the midbass. Unfortunately Dynamat or the equivalent isn't available here at the moment, so I've used layers of siding tape in its place. It seems to work well, and has a less of a tendency to unstick :-). I didn't use the ply panels in my latest install, but I've used a/c weatherguard foam between the inner door frame and the plastic moulding and siding tape on the plastic moulding itself to reduce vibration. I'm reasonably happy with the results now, and I didn't have to remove the moisture guard to do it.

[Texan]

Thanks for the info guys

Philip,

I like the tweeter install method. What year truck? My dear old Dad and I do not live in the same state anymore so a factory type install “as far as electronics go” has some advantages, but I could receive the stuff here and add the caps etc. The other stuff at mad is in the price range. Is that the only trouble you see with it? it could make for options down the road as my bro will probably buy the truck from him in a couple of years. It looks nicer than similarly priced car speakers.

Brian,

Did you just tell the Mad guys what you wanted and the designed the crossover or what? Did they select the tweet? Also do you see any problems with the hi vi kit?

For this project the less diy the better.

[Brian Steele]

Did you just tell the Mad guys what you wanted and the designed the crossover or what?

Sort-of. I told them the drivers I wanted to use, and I wanted a x-over for them, without BSC. The x-over actually works well if the drivers are mounted in a box, but it might be a little too "polite" for car audio use. A much better approach IMO would be to use passive filtering to clean up the response of the drivers at the end of their passbands (midrange - upper, tweeter - lower), then use active EQ and filtering to adjust the overall response in car, as in-car the changes in FR WILL be significant. EQ is almost a must in that environment.



Did they select the tweet?

I selected it. Sounds really good. It's a shame that I have to mount them so low in the doors, and make up for the off-axis response drop with the Daytons...



Also do you see any problems with the hi vi kit?

I haven't used it, so I can't comment.

[Texan]

Cool thanks again. The active idea is a good one for me but I don’t think my father needs any more buttons and doodads in his truck. :D

[philiparcario]

Thanks for the info guys

Philip,

I like the tweeter install method. What year truck? My dear old Dad and I do not live in the same state anymore so a factory type install “as far as electronics go” has some advantages, but I could receive the stuff here and add the caps etc. The other stuff at mad is in the price range. Is that the only trouble you see with it? it could make for options down the road as my bro will probably buy the truck from him in a couple of years. It looks nicer than similarly priced car speakers.

Brian,

Did you just tell the Mad guys what you wanted and the designed the crossover or what? Did they select the tweet? Also do you see any problems with the hi vi kit?

For this project the less diy the better.

tex it is a 2008 chevy malibu 4 door. i posted the whole install on this site last summer here are the links. including my 300 dollar mistake. (broken window) car was new so no junkyard glass oem means money!

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=205333
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=205732
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=206097
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=205876
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=206268
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=206303
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=206260

[Brian Steele]

Cool thanks again. The active idea is a good one for me but I don’t think my father needs any more buttons and doodads in his truck. :D

Well, you could do the active x-over and amplification via a separate 4-channel amplifier and x-over hidden away somewhere where your Dad won't see (or touch) it :)

[Texan]

That is a good idea, but he is 700miles 1125 km away, so if he can’t won’t set it up himself then… It is a nice thought though. I may have to look into it for my next rig.