Turntable Recommendations

[depthsounder]

My brother in law has taken an interest in vinyl and his birthday is coming up, so I've decided to find him a decent turntable to replace the Crosley he's using.

Anyone have any recommendations as to what to look for? I'm not looking for anything audiophilish, just a good quality unit.

-David

[williamrschneider]

I've been looking around for a turntable for about a year. I own a substantial collection of vinyl that I haven't heard in years. Someday when the wife isn't looking I'll order one.

Check out the Needle Doctor web site for Pro-Ject, Music Hall, and Rega turntables. Prices start around $349 for those brands and go up (quickly!). There's also selection of budget turntables starting at $99 shown there too.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Pro-Ject-Turntables

But admit it, this is what everyone REALLY wants...

http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11217&c=ACCT106601&h=67fc9eb2a339bdf27174

Also from the Needle Doctor for a mere 17 grand.

[kevinr]

The more you spend , the better the sound . I stopped listening to my large vinyl collection right about the time CD's entered the scene . The problem was the POC table I bought from Technics and then a similar stinker from Sony . I thought $200 for a table and decent Audio Technica stylus/cart was a sure bet for decent sound . Wrong .
I picked up an old heavy Technics table at an Estate Sale several years back and started listening to vinyl and it finally sounded right again . I upgraded to a Shure 97 cart and it got better . A friend gave me a like new Onkyo DD table but it sounds only okay . I made the plunge and bought a REGA P2 with Elys cartridge and now spin vinyl. I clean the records with micro fiber cloths from target and use the homemade vinyl cleaning solution instructions from the Smithsonian at their web site . I was was surprised how lousy the phono preamp in my Pioneer Receiver was when I bought the $50 ART DJ Pre from Parts Express . Huge improvement. I use a tube Bellari phono now

[depthsounder]

The more you spend , the better the sound.

Well crap, now that's not what I wanted to hear! :D

I may have to consider the jungle that is the used market. What are things to look for in a turntable? I presume that most of the magic will be in the pickup area, though I have never had a turntable and am completely clueless what is considered a good design.

So that I can at least narrow my options here, let say we have a budget of $100, and hopefully less. There aren't alot of places to look for a used one in Eufaula, AL so we are regulated to internet purchases; perhaps Atlanta if someone is willing to sell me one at DIYatlanta.

Keep in mind that he is not an audiophile, and what I'm looking to do here is move him away from his all in one Crosley to a decent set of speakers. To me the turntable is just means to that end and I'm sure even a budget one will be better than what he has.

Thanks for the suggestions so far,

-David

[williamrschneider]

Yeah, if you're on a tight budget, used gear it will be.

I have an older Yamaha turntable that I recently attempted to get going, but it sounded awful. I suspect the elastomers in the stylus suspension have hardened in the 20 years or so since it was made. It used to sound good, but not now. I suspect that I'll get a new stylus for this one before I get a new 'table. Budgetary matters, you know.

You're right that the stylus will have a profound effect on the sound. I recall my turntable period in the late '60s through late '80s where I had some dogs for styli - in particular Empire cartridges of various sorts. I found bliss when I finally bought a Shure M91 cartridge that cost over $100 at the time. It was considered a middle-of-the-road cartridge then, but sounded remarkably better than the middle-road Empires.

So used gear it will be for you, but be careful that old components don't affect sound, or worse, the life of the vinyl recording.

[williamrschneider]

OK, maybe I've had one too many beers this evening (that makes it a total of two at my age) , but I also have this turntable that I'd LOVE to get rid of. Unfortunately it's my wife's.

Too bad we can't find the crank handle for it. It's in this house somewhere, but probably packed away in some box since our last move 12 years ago. She has this thing parked in my listening room. Maybe it's appropriate.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/old_phonograph_turntable1.jpg

And it comes with a spare cartridge...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/old_phonograph_stylus1sml.jpg

I suspect the tracking force is a little high, but it uses no electricity.

Somebody PLEASE make my wife an attractive offer for it!

[gc1]

Just don't get a DUAL... biggest POS I ever used/listened to.
:mad:

[cpcarter]

The best turntables are well integrated systems not just a fancy sexy tonearm. It's about precision, speed accuracy and dead silent background. As with any "vintage" gear some designs stand the test of time and as long as they are carefully restored and set up they will rival the newest. There is of course a price/performance relationship old or new. There seems to be some pretty good entry level Regas and EPI in the $200-$300 range. I wouldn't spend less than that.
I have a Thorens TD160c which is pretty basic but generally highly regarded as a very solid performer. It's about 34 years old and with a new belt and new stylus on the Shure V15Type IV cartridge it is as good as the day I bought it in 1975.

This link is a dedicated fellow who is obsessed with the subject and full of great info. Might even have some links to good used/restored items too.
http://www.theanalogdept.com/index.html
CC

[depthsounder]

Wow Bill, that's quite the antique!

There are a good number of turntables (one of which, coincedentally is a Dual) in the craigslist classifieds for Atlanta, maybe I can work out a deal. I am thinking an older Technics or Pioneer, something that perhaps was midfi that can take a decent cartridge.

Oops, just saw your post cpcarter, I might consider something like that if/when I buy a turntable for myself, but times are tight here (aren't they for everyone though right), and I'm still going to be building some speakers as the second part of the gift, so I'll have to buy something that is not as nice as those you suggested, but passable.

Should I go belt drive or direct drive?


-David

[dubbreak]

For $100 you could probably get a decent used AR (acoustic research) XA (I have one and it's a nice classic piece). Pioneer or dual should be in that price range, or even an older yamaha. Match that with a shure cart and you are good to go (Shure is great bang for the buck).

Stay away from the newer plastic crap from Sony and the likes. Over-priced crap with crummy built-in phono preamps. Utter garbage. And any of the usb decks (Ion yeck).

Right now I'm using one of my DJ decks in my main system (american audio htd 4.5). Good wow and flutter specs, super quiet, 4.5kg torque, weighs in at a slight 25lbs:eek:. My avatar has a shot of that deck.

[depthsounder]

Ok, here's one:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/ele/1265160942.html

http://images.craigslist.org/3ke3me3ldZZZZZZZZZ97bfb1613c82d281c5e.jpg

New in box, $150. Maybe he'd take $100, I don't know.

Does this qualify as plastic crap? :D

Would something like this be better than a new $100 turntable?

-David

[cpcarter]

That Technics isn't exactly plastic crap. It's a unique NIB find but seems like a high $$$ for that. Probably find similar used for much less. DD is better for DJ work-high torque, quick spin-up, scratch friendly and more ruggedly built. For serious music listening I prefer a quality belt-drive with a better tonearm and better motor noise isolation. Might also try audiogon and the link I included above for quality gear.
Might take a little more time but finding an older, high quality, high-end in good condition is better than cheap new "plastic crap" as someone else said.
Good hunting!
CC

[MSaturn]

Rega P-series is by far the best deal.

Better idea would be to convince him to use CDs instead :P

Also, heh, that needle doctor place is on the same street I used to get blasted drunk on in college. Woo dinkytown!

[cpcarter]

Here are some listings from Audiogon. Some are sold but it gives you an idea of price on some quality used units.
The main site is: www.audiogon.com
Here are links to the units :

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1252083267&/Dual-1241-turntable-with

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1251080200&/Dual-721

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1250301723&/Thorens-TD-166-MKll

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1251070655&/Bang---Olufsen-RX-2-turntable

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1251748392&/Thorens-TD160-BC

[gc1]

Denon, Mitsubishi, Luxman, Kenwood KD-500/3055, Walker, Micro Seiki...

[WmAx]

My brother in law has taken an interest in vinyl and his birthday is coming up, so I've decided to find him a decent turntable to replace the Crosley he's using.

Anyone have any recommendations as to what to look for? I'm not looking for anything audiophilish, just a good quality unit.

-David

One person said the more you spend, the better the sound, well... that's true... to a point... but after a point I don't see where any actual mechanical advantages are had to improve performance. But generally, the plateau seems to exist at roughly the $1700-$3000 range, depending on the specific brand/model you choose (some offer much better mechanical systems for lower dollars than others, thus the wide range I quoted). Obviously, this is far more than you want to spend on your brother in law! :)

The Denon DP-300F (http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3145.asp) is a decent table for the occasional user. You can of course find it much cheaper than the listed MSRP on Denon's site. It has a decent tone arm and it has a built in RIAA pre-amp so that he can just connect it to any normal line input instead of having to buy a phono preamp or depend on him having a receiver or pre-amp with an existing phono preamp on it (not many units have built in phono inputs today).

Of course, you can go with entry level Rega or Music Hall or the like, but seriously, most people would be happier with the Denon above, in that price range, in practical circumstances. It also has auto lift/start function which most people in general will prefer.

Even better is if you can find mint condition 80's era Technics SL-Q2, SL-Q3, SL-1400MKII (not the non MKII version); these are not very popular ones to be collected, so they can be found mint for under $100 usually on eBay. These specific models I listed are superior overall to entry level Regas and the like; they have have high quality solid cast aluminum bodies, good mass cast and machined aluminum platter, low rumble, dead accurate speed(much better than the Rega or Music Hall, etc.) and a decent quality tone arm (not quite as good as the modern Regas or Music Hall or the Denon - but still pretty good). The Rega and Music Hall will not have near the speed/pitch accuracy, and the bodies are made from a single piece of painted MDF, and even the platter on the cheap Rega is made from MDF.

The Denon comes with a cheap usable cartridge. If you get a vintage Technics, most likely, you will need to replace/get a new cartridge for it. Frankly, the cheapest 'usable' cartridges will probably be like the cheapest Grado or something. I would really like to suggest something much better that actually has top performance for reasonable cost, but it's going to be too much ($140) for your gift budget when all is said and done.

I spent a good deal of time researching tone arm mechanics, material usage, etc. on turn tables a while back in order to pick out the best value unit for my purposes. I have examined all of the products listed above in person.

-Chris

[kevinr]

Chris offers some excellent advice in his post . A friend of mine just bought the Denon Turntable with a Grado Cartrdidge to replace his Dual table and is very happy with it . He didn't have any hum issues with this combination either. I've read Grado carts have hum issues that show up on certain tone arms due to lack of shielding.
I should have been more clear on my earlier post that the more you spend the better the sound is in the entry level to mid level equipment mostly . I have listened to several TT in this range with my Rega P2 being the most expensive at around $700 . I don't know what more expensive TT's sound like since I haven't heard them , much as I would like to.
I was really surprised how poorly my Pioneer receiver's built in phono preamp was tho' I guess they really scrimped in that portion of the unit as it's not a whole lot better than the old $15 Radio Shack boxes

[jclin4]

I was really surprised how poorly my Pioneer receiver's built in phono preamp was tho' I guess they really scrimped in that portion of the unit as it's not a whole lot better than the old $15 Radio Shack boxes

This is a good point to consider: the phono stage matters. My A/V receiver (Yamaha RX-V800, old one) has phono inputs, but vinyl never sounded right through it.

I thought it might be the MM vs. MC cartridge-type issue, but I confirmed that the phono stage was the correct type for my cartridge.

Later I bought a separate phono stage which is now fed into the line inputs. This is not a high-end unit by any stretch of the imagination, but the sound is much improved.

http://nadelectronics.com/img/resampled/060616101043-430-PP2tech.jpg

[markparsons]

Take a look at www.kabusa.com They have a good selection of turntables and excellent service.

[msk]

Well I still use the old Technics SL-Q2 with a Shure V15, sounds good to my old ears....

[weinstro]

Even better is if you can find mint condition 80's era Technics SL-Q2, SL-Q3, SL-1400MKII (not the non MKII version); these are not very popular ones to be collected, so they can be found mint for under $100 usually on eBay. These specific models I listed are superior overall to entry level Regas and the like; they have have high quality solid cast aluminum bodies, good mass cast and machined aluminum platter, low rumble, dead accurate speed(much better than the Rega or Music Hall, etc.) and a decent quality tone arm (not quite as good as the modern Regas or Music Hall or the Denon - but still pretty good).
-Chris

Many years ago, I used a Technics SL-Q2 with a Grado cartridge. I can vouch for this combo - it worked fine.

Later on, I upgraded to a Revox B-790 with a Denon SL-160 MC cartridge and a separate step-up transformer, and gave the SL-Q2 to my mom. This was much better sounding (and way cooler looking), and I ran this for several years. I've since liquidated my vinyl collection, but the Revox is still around here, collecting dust.

Regards,

Rob

[Wushuliu]

Well crap, now that's not what I wanted to hear! :D

I may have to consider the jungle that is the used market. What are things to look for in a turntable? I presume that most of the magic will be in the pickup area, though I have never had a turntable and am completely clueless what is considered a good design.

So that I can at least narrow my options here, let say we have a budget of $100, and hopefully less. There aren't alot of places to look for a used one in Eufaula, AL so we are regulated to internet purchases; perhaps Atlanta if someone is willing to sell me one at DIYatlanta.

Keep in mind that he is not an audiophile, and what I'm looking to do here is move him away from his all in one Crosley to a decent set of speakers. To me the turntable is just means to that end and I'm sure even a budget one will be better than what he has.

Thanks for the suggestions so far,

-David

$100 or less new would not be an option. If you can double that then the AT PL-120 (http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-PL120-Professional-Direct-Drive-Turntable/dp/B00012EYNG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1247592391&sr=1-1)would be a solid choice or even the SL-BD20 (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Technics-SLBD20D-Automatic-Turntable/dp/B00005T3Y8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1247592253&sr=8-1) for $150. Won't get you bragging rights but they're far better than anything else in that price range.

For under $100 the recommendation for any Technics 1xxx models is a good one. Any Technics S-arm is a good bet. They're extremely reliable and sound outstanding and easy to find.

Avoid anything plastic and thin with a straight arm (the BD20D is an exception).

Direct drive or belt drive is irrelevant. The quality of the unit is what matters.

Avoid ebay unless it's within pick up range. The rate of damaged turntables when shipped is pretty high (and I also speak from personal experience).

[depthsounder]

Thanks for all of the recommendations guys.

I know that Dual got a bad rap here earlier, but some searching showed that this Dual 1237 gets decent reviews.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/ele/1267767092.html

For less than $50 it certainly fits the bill, any comments?

-David

[weinstro]

Thanks for all of the recommendations guys.

I know that Dual got a bad rap here earlier, but some searching showed that this Dual 1237 gets decent reviews.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/ele/1267767092.html

For less than $50 it certainly fits the bill, any comments?

-David

Craigslist is probably a good choice since you can go over and look at the thing, and a turntable has lots of wearable and fragile parts, but I've never been impressed with Dual.

Technics, Denon, Thorens - those were decent brands. Oh, and Revox.

Regards,

Rob

[Wushuliu]

Thanks for all of the recommendations guys.

I know that Dual got a bad rap here earlier, but some searching showed that this Dual 1237 gets decent reviews.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/ele/1267767092.html

For less than $50 it certainly fits the bill, any comments?

-David

Try and audition it if at all possible. I would recommend stopping by Audiokarma and asking what you should look out for when buying a used Dual just to be thorough as there are a lot of Dual experts there.

Dual-reference.com (http://dual-reference.com/tables/1237.htm)has all the specs on the unit.

Go for it.

[AudioMixer]

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/MHMMF2_2B-Large.jpgNow here's a * real turntable * just under 450 bucks. I now own one and love it!!:D

[depthsounder]

It's turntables like that that make vinyl look good.

[dthomas]

I got a chuckle out of the fact that Dual is considered a poor choice. The Dual 1200 series turntables are excellent and were probably one of the most widely produced turntables through the 60s and the 80s.

It is easy to find a Dual 1210, 1211 or 1216 turntable at a Surplus store or garage sale. They are ultra simple to restore for anyone willing to take the time to disassemble, clean and relubricate them. Parts are still readily available, manuals are easy to get online and sound quality is excellent.

Obviously if you locate a good 40 year old Dual turntable replacing the cartridge is a must as it is rare you will find a 40 year old magnetic cartridge that will still work as it was intended. But adding an Audio Technica cartridge for $35 to well as much as you care to spend will bring them up to snuff.

They have gimbal mounted tone arms, auto start and shut off, pitch control and good wow and flutter and SNR specs. Plus they were tested in the day when people did honest testing.

I just refurbished a 1211 took about 3 hours of time and all I had to replace was one broken spring and make a few adjustments and it operates like new. I got this one at the most excellent price of free, when I started the platter would not budge after just 3 hours it sounds like it did 40 years ago when it was produced. It came from on old Sony Receiver with built in TT. I still have to build a stand alone case for it and add an ART phono preamp but I have played it about 8 hours using the Sony preamp and it works like a dream and sounds quite good.

It will be interesting to see what some of these new production turntables are like when they are 40 years old. I am not as confident they will be quite as easy to resurrect as these are.

http://dual-reference.com/tables/1211.htm

:D

[depthsounder]

I appreciate the input, I don't think I'll let the brand phase me too much, as long as it is a decent design, in good condition, and parts are available (and at a fair price).

The Dual I linked to earlier has been removed from craigslist, I guess it sold.

Next...

[dthomas]

I appreciate the input, I don't think I'll let the brand phase me too much, as long as it is a decent design, in good condition, and parts are available (and at a fair price).

The Dual I linked to earlier has been removed from craigslist, I guess it sold.

Next...

Watch for 60s and 70s consoles and "all in one" receivers it is very common for the better units to have a Dual 1211 or 1216 installed. These things show up at the Salvation Army, Estate Sales and yard sales with frequency. It is an excellent turntable and is easy to restore. There is a Russian site that as all the User and Repair manuals on line with free download which helps in refurbishing. They were built like tanks and the design is proven to be very reliable. Typically you need to upgrade the cartridge but like all things audio don't fall for the snake oil. $35 to $50 will buy a very nice cartridge, so I would forego the $10000.00 plus cartridges as I doubt you will hear the difference. :rolleyes: Though I am sure this an audiophile that would not part ways with his $10K cartridge for twice the price.

[dubbreak]

Watch for 60s and 70s consoles and "all in one" receivers it is very common for the better units to have a Dual 1211 or 1216 installed. These things show up at the Salvation Army, Estate Sales and yard sales with frequency. It is an excellent turntable and is easy to restore. ...

Good call. Then you can grab the turntable out and make your own wood plinth (there was a thread on plywood edges a while back I posted some pics of plywood plinths in). If I had time and space I'd definitely do that for kicks.

Plus some of the old consoles are pretty cool looking and can be put to other use. The lower ones can make a decent tv stand (if that works with your decor). Personally I have an old side board/credenza re-purposed as a tv stand. For the price I got it for I couldn't buy the wood it's made of.

[DDF]

The Systemdek IIX was my first table, bought for $300 in '84. If you find one cheap, snag it. It came with a good basic arm, a good supension and a nice wood plinth.

It sounded pretty decent.

Dave

[mgrabow]

My brother in law has taken an interest in vinyl and his birthday is coming up, so I've decided to find him a decent turntable to replace the Crosley he's using.

Anyone have any recommendations as to what to look for? I'm not looking for anything audiophilish, just a good quality unit.

-David

Rega makes several good entry level "high end" turn tables...