Bill's Overnight Sensations build diary [Archive] - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

williamrschneider

07-16-2009, 04:28 PM

I've made the plunge and purchased parts for what should be a fun build project - the Overnight Sensations designed by Paul Carmody.

I am one of the slowest builders on the face of the planet, so this thread may be active for a while, then disappear as things get busy elsewhere for me. For example, I'm still building Zaph ZDT3.5s from parts purchased last summer - over a year ago. (The good news is that they are almost finished!).

Once the drivers were in hand for this project, I measured them and began planning how to approach the cabinet (removable baffle, or removable back, etc.) I decided to tackle a removable back this time and try for a paint finish on these.

The first job was to lay out the cuts for the baffle, and router them outdoors. I pride myself for careful planning, and as you can see from the proudly made photo, I'm already making a mistake. The sharp-eyed will easily spot it. Thankfully I did too before making the cuts.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_baffle1_layout.jpg

It made me grumpy with myself for even getting THIS far without seeing it. Oh, well, I'm sure that I'm not alone.

Here's a shot after routing the driver openings. I have more to say about that later.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_first_baffles2.jpg

williamrschneider

07-16-2009, 04:34 PM

While still pondering the details of the cabinet, I started to plan the crossovers. I do this after measuring each component, making a simple scale illustration in CorelDraw, and rearranging until I'm happy that things will work.

I decided to separate the tweeter and the woofer boards because of the small cabinet size of the Overnight Sensations. BTW, I had to substitute one inductor (1.1mH) for the specified brand because of an out-of-stock part. I also substituted a Dayton cap for the electrolytic. I tend to keep things for a while, and have had issues with old electrolytics after 15 years or so.

Tweeter board plan...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_tweeter_xover_plan.gif

and woofer board plan...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_woofer_xover_plan.gif

Drilling the corner mounting holes in the boards...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_drilling_tweet_xover.jpg

williamrschneider

07-16-2009, 04:39 PM

I often use solder-type terminal strips to connect the various components. It keeps things tidy, and provides some mechanical robustness in the assembly.

However, I have available locally only Radio Shack terminal strips, and they have smallish openings for wires, especially if you have a fat inductor lead, a 16 ga. stranded wire to the drivers and maybe something else all going into one opening. I fought that on my ZMV5 build.

I've recently been enlarging the openings on my terminal strips using a Whitney Jr. punch that I had purchased back when I was an active engineer. It works slick for these, although it's a little slow.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_whitney_jr_punch_composite.jpg

The inset picture shows a combination of both before (triangular holes) and after some were punched.

depthsounder

07-16-2009, 04:43 PM

I pride myself for careful planning, and as you can see from the proudly made photo, I'm already making a mistake. The sharp-eyed will easily spot it. Thankfully I did too before making the cuts.

You were going to mirror image those baffles right?

:D

Looking good so far, I wish I could be building speakers, but the only wood I'm cutting these days is new counter tops in the kitchen.

BTW I have that exact same punch, it's great.

-David

gorbs

07-16-2009, 07:03 PM

nice work man.!! i confess i looked with dull eyes lol. didn't even think to look for that. i will be when i start my RB2 build though.

philiparcario

07-16-2009, 07:13 PM

You were going to mirror image those baffles right?

:D

Looking good so far, I wish I could be building speakers, but the only wood I'm cutting these days is new counter tops in the kitchen.

BTW I have that exact same punch, it's great.

-David

he did not make a mistake he was kidding he is going to stack those baffles and have a rigid faceplate. Can i spin doc or what!

williamrschneider

07-16-2009, 08:41 PM

You guys are sharp - especially Phil! (Phil - you should be in politics!)

David - just consider the countertop job as practice for speaker building! :)

Here's a shot of the tweeter crossovers awaiting population.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_tweetxover_feet.jpg

I used small sections of dowel as feet. I will put glue on the bottom of them, and drop them into position in the cabinet to dry. If I need to, I can still remove a crossover board afterwards by removing the screws holding it to the feet. However, I'm NEVER going to use dowels again!

In the past, I've used wooden strips to do the same thing, and it's much easier. Drilling pilot holes in all those dinky things was a pain, as was trying to drive the screws in without the darn things rotating. 'Twas an education in what not to do next time.

williamrschneider

07-16-2009, 08:53 PM

Here's what I alluded to in one of the earlier posts. I may remake the baffles because of the sloppy way the tweeter fits. I use a Jasper circle guide, and I've always been able to find a diameter that creates a nice fit with the driver. This time, the hole is a little sloppy around the edges. I may have to add a Router Buddy to my tools for cases like this. I LOVE the ease with which the hole diameter is set on the Jasper, but with metric drivers and non-metric Jasper settings it's sometimes inevitable that you can't get the hole you want.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_tweeter_sloppyhole.jpg

The tweeter flange is 45mm outer diameter, and I found a 45 mm Forstner bit on Amazon that I have coming for this job.

I'll need the close fit that the forstner will provide for one other aspect of this tweeter too. When I countersunk the hole, I included a little bit extra depth for compressed gasket material.

But, duh..., there's no way to compress the gasket if the driver flange has no screw holes! I then decided I was going to make a jig to drill and countersink four holes in the tweeter flanges to hold #4 screws.

Catch 22...I can't make a jig with the proper diameter with my Jasper. That's why I ordered the 45mm Forstner. It will solve two problems - make a tight fitting jig for accurate positioning of screw holes in the flange, and make a tight counterbore on new baffles.

After writing this, I realize that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. If I make another baffle with the depth of tweeter recess just right (no gasket allowance) and merely glue it in, I'd be fine. In fact, I'd be fine with what I have if I shim the tweeter back out flush using some cardboard.

We'll see if I come to my senses, or if I continue to tilt at windmills.

WWWJD

07-16-2009, 09:49 PM

Bill? You're running off and leaving me man! :)

williamrschneider

07-16-2009, 10:16 PM

Didn't want to clutter your build thread with my piddling around! Your version will have nifty features that mine won't, so I went off with my tail dragging.

WayneN

07-16-2009, 11:50 PM

romanbednarek

07-17-2009, 01:04 AM

Hi Bill,

Looks good so far:)

Haven’t started my first builds yet, house renovations first, hopefully in about 6-8 weeks.

With regards to the front baffle and from all my research I was under the assumption that you only chamfer the woofer and not the tweeter? Have I misunderstood something along the way or maybe it doesn’t it matter?

Are you doing the same thing as Ryan M did when he did Jeff B’s Draydels where he used dowels in the woofer screw holes?

WayneN

The theory behind chamfering the inside of the baffle for a driver is to prevent the baffle from blocking the rear wave of the driver. Since a tweeter doesn't radiate into the enclosure, this isn't necessary. A chamfer is usually required for smaller drivers (or drivers with larger magnet structures) where the thickness of the baffle can block the openings of the woofer basket. My Microbe design which uses the RS125 was a particular design that required a chamfer and the picture below of that driver gives a good indication as to why a chamfer was a requirement for decent performance...

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/295-360_L.jpg

nick29498141

07-17-2009, 01:07 AM

Fantastic design/drafting there!

Nice shop, too!

NK

Ryan_M

07-17-2009, 01:34 AM

With regards to the front baffle and from all my research I was under the assumption that you only chamfer the woofer and not the tweeter? Have I misunderstood something along the way or maybe it doesn’t it matter?

Could just be clearance for around the wire terminals. Probably faster to chamfer the whole thing then try to notch out some space and it looks more 'finished' too. Just guessing....

BTW Bill the slop really doesn't look that bad in the pics. You could just try purposely off centering the jig base plate to eat up some of that inaccuracy, I've done that before. But I'm with you, I want a fully adjustable jig too.

Paul Carmody

07-17-2009, 01:52 AM

and as you can see from the proudly made photo, I'm already making a mistake. The sharp-eyed will easily spot it. Thankfully I did too before making the cuts.

Ha! I didn't catch that in your photo, which isn't much of a surprise, because I've done that gaff a few times, including when I first cut the boxes for this project. I think the bad baffle is still sitting in the scrap pile in my garage. Kudos to you for catching it before putting the bits to the wood.

By the way, your planning and use of jigs is exemplary. Thanks for the photos.

williamrschneider

07-17-2009, 07:57 AM

Fantastic design/drafting there!

NK

My father was a chief draftsman in a medium sized company. My brother held a similar position in a small hydraulics company until he died. It must be a family thing.

I've done my share of drafting sitting at a board with a dandy Mutoh drafting machine and vellum. CAD came along after I left the field.

Heh, calculators came along while I was still in the field. I was fairly proficient with a slide rule before then, although that skill is gone now.

The chamfer on the back of the tweeter opening is merely for clearance. It provides a little more room for my fingers back there. This will be handy with a removable back design where I have to fish my hands through the cabinet to wire in drivers.

I'm using 3/4" MDF instead of Paul's 1/2". Local stores here don't carry 1/2" MDF, and I have a bunch of the 3/4" left over from other projects. Depth will be added to the enclosure to keep the interior volume the same as Paul specified.

Paul - Like most of us here, I already have a stack of unused baffles for various projects sitting around because of mistakes. It must signify a right of passage for DIYers.

williamrschneider

07-17-2009, 08:10 AM

Hi Bill,

Are you doing the same thing as Ryan M did when he did Jeff B’s Draydels where he used dowels in the woofer screw holes?

WayneN

No, I won't use dowels - although that did look very nice in Ryan's build. I'll take the easier route and just press the hurricane nuts into the lands as-is with a spot of glue. That's worked fine for me so far.

Here's how I inserted the nuts on my ZDT3.5 build...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/hurricane_nut_insertion.jpg

Part of the nut's flange may hang into the opening a bit on the small drivers for this project, but it's mostly cosmetic. There's enough of the flange in contact to provide a strong assembly. I haven't had any trouble doing that with my ZMV5 build or the to-be-completed (needs veneer) ZDT3.5 build.

lunchmoney

07-17-2009, 04:41 PM

Looking great so far!

I prefer to thread my h-nuts in by pulling them in with a screw and washer from the other side... if you look closely, the barbs on the h-nuts are actually helical, and are designed to thread in... but I'm sure those will be fine, particularly since you used gorilla glue with them.

williamrschneider

07-17-2009, 07:31 PM

WayneN

07-17-2009, 09:15 PM

The theory behind chamfering the inside of the baffle for a driver is to prevent the baffle from blocking the rear wave of the driver. Since a tweeter doesn't radiate into the enclosure, this isn't necessary. A chamfer is usually required for smaller drivers (or drivers with larger magnet structures) where the thickness of the baffle can block the openings of the woofer basket. My Microbe design which uses the RS125 was a particular design that required a chamfer and the picture below of that driver gives a good indication as to why a chamfer was a requirement for decent performance...

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/295-360_L.jpg

Roman,

I now understand the need for the chamfer:o

Thanks,

WayneN

WayneN

07-17-2009, 09:25 PM

My father was a chief draftsman in a medium sized company. My brother held a similar position in a small hydraulics company until he died. It must be a family thing.

I've done my share of drafting sitting at a board with a dandy Mutoh drafting machine and vellum. CAD came along after I left the field.

Heh, calculators came along while I was still in the field. I was fairly proficient with a slide rule before then, although that skill is gone now.

The chamfer on the back of the tweeter opening is merely for clearance. It provides a little more room for my fingers back there. This will be handy with a removable back design where I have to fish my hands through the cabinet to wire in drivers.

I'm using 3/4" MDF instead of Paul's 1/2". Local stores here don't carry 1/2" MDF, and I have a bunch of the 3/4" left over from other projects. Depth will be added to the enclosure to keep the interior volume the same as Paul specified.

Paul - Like most of us here, I already have a stack of unused baffles for various projects sitting around because of mistakes. It must signify a right of passage for DIYers.

Hi Bill,

Now that I look at all my tweeters it makes sense to have a little extra clearance especially for the wires. I will be doing my first build soon I just want to make sure that I don’t mess up to much of the hardwoods, what angle did you use for the chamfer 30 degrees or 45? Since your baffle is 3/4 “ thick would you use the 45 degree and if the baffle was 1/2 “ would you use a 30 degree :confused:

WayneN

WayneN

07-17-2009, 09:28 PM

Thanks for the observations, Lunch. The glue really makes them secure though, so I install them using a quick and convenient method. If I wasn't using glue, I'd pull them in as you described.

A quick clamp isn't strong enough for 1/4-20 inserts, so I use a c-clamp for those. I always put the rotating anvil of the c-clamp against the hurricane nut to let it spin and form threads.

I am almost done with the xover boards. All components are hot-glued in position on the boards, and all they need is connecting wire soldered on. I completely finished only one, but I'm tuckered out for now. The rest will have to wait.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_xovers_almostdone_sml.jpg

The 45mm forstner bit came today from Amazon. I made a test cut into a piece of scrap and placed the tweeter into the recess. Perfect fit! I've got maybe 10 thousandths inch total clearance (5 per side), so I'd have to be careful with how much paint gets into the recesses.

Bill,

The crossover looks awesome, now for the questions please.
1) Forgive my ignorance as this is all very new to me, are you using 18 gauge wire?

2) You made the crossover in two sections so are they somehow connected to each other or will one be just for the woofer and the other just for the tweeter and no connection in between them?

3) I just bought a new Weller WES51 Soldering Station on sale for $99.00 regular price was $169.00 now what kind of solder do I use? The guy at the Source was not very helpful and they have 8 or 9 different kinds, I have no idea of what to buy:confused:

Thanks for the information.

WayneN

donparsons

07-17-2009, 11:08 PM

Ryan_M

07-17-2009, 11:25 PM

Plain-jane 60/40 solder is all you need.

Taterworks

07-17-2009, 11:42 PM

WayneN

07-18-2009, 12:06 AM

Plain-jane 60/40 solder is all you need.

They had solder with flux and without does it matter?

Thanks again,

WayneN

donparsons

07-18-2009, 12:10 AM

Weller WES51 here. I think if you value having excellent tools to help you get the results you want (the rest of my workshop is Porter Cable, Bosch, and Hitachi tools), the investment is worthwhile. If Craftsman gets you by, then the Stahl soldering station is probably a better 'value' (though its temperature control isn't thermocouple-regulated, I don't think, while the WES51's is.) I like the consistency I get from the Weller station, especially when I've got 46 XLRs to solder in a couple hours.

In your case, the weller does make sense, for doing the occasional crossover, the Stahl would be plenty good. My Dad does a lot more soldering than I do, some of it on small boards so he needs a much better station than I do. I have a nice Dewalt router, he has a drum sander.

Different strokes. 46 is a lot of XLRs. Better you than me. :)

WayneN

07-18-2009, 12:10 AM

While a Weller Station is very nice, if you possibly can return it and get this one. It will do everything you need it to and you will have $ left over to buy some other tools.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=374-100

Don,

Thanks for the heads up but I don’t know where the receipt is and it was what I call gravy money, I did a couple hour data recovery for a person therefore gravy money. Nothing else to do when its pouring rain for 5 days!

Thanks again,

WayneN

Hal H

07-18-2009, 12:33 AM

They had solder with flux and without does it matter?

Thanks again,

WayneN

Wayne, you'll want to get the flux core. Make sure it's rosin core. It also helps if you get the thin stuff, too.

Hal H

philiparcario

07-18-2009, 06:36 AM

Wayne, you'll want to get the flux core. Make sure it's rosin core. It also helps if you get the thin stuff, too.

Hal H

yeah when you are new buy the 3 thinnest ones, start with the thinnest and as you learn heat control go thicker. Heat control is important because you can overheat and kill voice coils , caps and resisters. consider using this product when possible.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103230

it can be cut to size two or more still have a screw hole. pe sells it far lower cost but I can't find it.

williamrschneider

07-18-2009, 07:23 AM

Bill,

The crossover looks awesome, now for the questions please.
1) Forgive my ignorance as this is all very new to me, are you using 18 gauge wire?

2) You made the crossover in two sections so are they somehow connected to each other or will one be just for the woofer and the other just for the tweeter and no connection in between them?

3) I just bought a new Weller WES51 Soldering Station on sale for $99.00 regular price was $169.00 now what kind of solder do I use? The guy at the Source was not very helpful and they have 8 or 9 different kinds, I have no idea of what to buy:confused:

Thanks for the information.

WayneN

I feel like Rip van Winkle. I go to bed, and a whole lot happened while I was dozing!

Wayne - I used a 45 degree chamfer. You do have to be careful about how deep it goes because it grows in diameter too. If you go too far, you chamfer the glue line where the baffle meets the cabinet - or beyond! The OS boxes are small, and things fit closely.

I just sketch it out in a drawing program to get an idea, and stay within a margin of safety for the recess. You could also chamfer only part way around, and on the top where the baffle meets cabinet, don't chamfer at all.

Or use a 30 degree bit if you have one.

Now on to the other questions...

1) I'm using 16 ga. wire, but it's overkill and a little difficult to work with. The kind that I'm using has a thick, stiff outer insulator - it's hard to strip without damaging internal wires). Using 18 ga. would be fine, I'm sure. If I weren't so lazy, I'd have gone to Radio Shack last night and purchase something else. I'll have to stock up on more suitable wire in my next PE purchase.

2) The boards are connected electrically only at the binding posts - in other words, the input. They see the same signal from the amplifier, but from there on out, they are separate and each works with its intended driver.

3) I use "Kester 44" solder, rosin core, 0.031 diameter. PE sells it for $20.49/1 lb. spool:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=370-074

Solders listed as 60/40 are good too. It's important to get rosin core though. I don't think I'd want anything thinner than 0.031 diameter. My 0.031 is still mighty thin.

WayneN

07-18-2009, 10:06 AM

Don, Hal, Phil, Ryan, Tate,

Thanks for the tips and advice, very valuable for a newbie.

Wayne

WayneN

07-18-2009, 10:10 AM

I feel like Rip van Winkle. I go to bed, and a whole lot happened while I was dozing!

Wayne - I used a 45 degree chamfer. You do have to be careful about how deep it goes because it grows in diameter too. If you go too far, you chamfer the glue line where the baffle meets the cabinet - or beyond!

I just sketch it out in a drawing program to get an idea, and stay within a margin of safety for the recess. You could also chamfer only part way around, and on the top where the baffle meets cabinet, don't chamfer at all.

Or use a 30 degree bit if you can have one.

Now on to the other questions...

1) I'm using 16 ga. wire, but it's overkill and a little difficult to work with. The kind that I'm using has a thick, stiff outer insulator - it's hard to strip without damaging internal wires). Using 18 ga. would be fine, I'm sure. If I weren't so lazy, I'd have gone to Radio Shack last night and purchase something else. I'll have to stock up on more suitable wire in my next PE purchase.

2) The boards are connected electrically only at the binding posts - in other words, the input to the speakers. They see the same signal from the amplifier, but from there on out, they are separate and each works with its intended driver.

3) I use "Kester 44" solder, rosin core, 0.031 diameter. PE sells it for $20.49/1 lb. spool:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=370-074

Solders listed as 60/40 are good too. It's important to get rosin core though. I don't think I'd want anything thinner than 0.031 diameter. My 0.031 is still mighty thin.

Bill,

I wasn’t trying to overtake your thread, your sharing a nice build starting from square one and there’s so many things that I need to learn for my soon to be built, multiple first builds that I can learn from you all here:)

I have 5 or 6 different chamfer bits that I will definitely be trying out on scrap wood first!

The speaker cabinets I don’t think will be a problem for me; it’s the crossovers that are the confusing part?

I will definitely look for the Rosin Core Solder in the .031 diameter.

Thanks again for sharing and for letting me dip in and grab information.

WayneN

williamrschneider

07-18-2009, 11:28 AM

Bill,

I wasn’t trying to overtake your thread, your sharing a nice build starting from square one and there’s so many things that I need to learn for my soon to be built, multiple first builds that I can learn from you all here:)

WayneN

Wayne...

I don't worry a bit about other issues or questions showing up in this thread. In fact, I enjoy the different points of view, questions, etc. that most threads here have. I've learned a lot myself.

If I didn't want any comments, pointers, or questions, I'd merely write it in my little black book at home and not put it up here.

Sharing info and the "give and take" are the whole point of this forum!

jonpike

07-19-2009, 04:31 AM

Thanks for the observations, Lunch. The glue really makes them secure though, so I install them using a quick and convenient method. If I wasn't using glue, I'd pull them in as you described.

I am almost done with the xover boards. All components are hot-glued in position on the boards, and all they need is connecting wire soldered on. I completely finished only one, but I'm tuckered out for now. The rest will have to wait.

I tend to put a bit of epoxy even on H-nuts... :D

Something to think about with the crossover mounting... Keep an eye on how near the woofer frame/magnet gets to the inductors. I've measured a shift in inductance when near ferrous metal like that, but you have to be pretty close for it to be an issue. 1" away should be good.

Usually it's not anywhere near that close, but this is a small speaker, and I believe a driver with a big shielded magnet... Just don't end up with the inductors right up against it, or you'll alter your values and the crossover transfer function.

williamrschneider

07-19-2009, 07:38 AM

I Keep an eye on how near the woofer frame/magnet gets to the inductors. I've measured a shift in inductance when near ferrous metal like that, but you have to be pretty close for it to be an issue. 1" away should be good.

I do keep an eye out for that. In fact, when I was experimenting with the placement of the small coil, I had to keep it away from the terminal strip mounting screws and board mounting screws. I saw a significant inductance change on my LCR meter when the screws were close. It was eye-opening how much the value changed by getting a little #6 screw next to it's opening.

The HiVi woofers have a large metal shield, making placement a bit more tricky. I'll check that out once the cabinets are built.

Didn't get anything done on the speakers yesterday. Other duties called.

williamrschneider

07-19-2009, 07:06 PM

After yesterday's break from the project, I dove in today with some determination to get a bunch done.
I finished the crossovers and all of them have the pigtail wiring completed for inputs and drivers.

Here's a close-up of a tweeter crossover board...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_xover_finished_cu_sml.jpg

Then on I went to some woodworking. I ripped two boards down to the width that equals the depth of the speaker. I was aiming for 9.21" depth because of my usage of 3/4" MDF instead of the 1/2" specified by Paul. The thicker wall must be compensated for using increased cabinet depth compared to the original plans.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_ripping_sidessml.jpg

And here's how it measured after ripping. It measured from 0.001" to 0.006" proud on the two boards that I ripped.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_measuring_rip_sml.jpg

That'll do nicely.

williamrschneider

07-19-2009, 07:13 PM

Then I went on to crosscutting the newly ripped boards. That's a piece of cake, and I can cut within 0.005" repeatablility by setting the cut on that nifty miter gauge. No test cuts needed.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/od_crosscut2t_sml.jpg

From there, I set up the biscuit cutter jig for making biscuit slots. The jig is SO much better than trying to do this freehand. Safer too.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_biscuit_cutting1_sml.jpg

After cutting biscuit slots, I did a dry fit. Biscuits were inserted, and the panels were test fitted.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_box_dryfit1_sml.jpg

Here's a check of squareness of the dryfit...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_square_chk1_sml.jpg

And here's a close up of the joints after biscuit cutting/dry assembly...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_dryfit_xup_sml.jpg

That'll do.

One thing is apparent to me when dryfitting - this speaker is SMALL! It's about the same volume as an old set of Paradigm Atoms that I have around here with one blown driver. Maybe I'll attempt a retrofit using Paul's drivers and crossover in follow-on project. I had contacted a salesman about a replacement driver for the Atoms, but he was pessimistic about my chances. This might provide a way to resurrect those old boxes.

romanbednarek

07-19-2009, 08:36 PM

I feel like Rip van Winkle. I go to bed, and a whole lot happened while I was dozing!

Wayne - I used a 45 degree chamfer. You do have to be careful about how deep it goes because it grows in diameter too. If you go too far, you chamfer the glue line where the baffle meets the cabinet - or beyond!

I just sketch it out in a drawing program to get an idea, and stay within a margin of safety for the recess. You could also chamfer only part way around, and on the top where the baffle meets cabinet, don't chamfer at all.

Or use a 30 degree bit if you can have one.

Now on to the other questions...

1) I'm using 16 ga. wire, but it's overkill and a little difficult to work with. The kind that I'm using has a thick, stiff outer insulator - it's hard to strip without damaging internal wires). Using 18 ga. would be fine, I'm sure. If I weren't so lazy, I'd have gone to Radio Shack last night and purchase something else. I'll have to stock up on more suitable wire in my next PE purchase.

2) The boards are connected electrically only at the binding posts - in other words, the input to the speakers. They see the same signal from the amplifier, but from there on out, they are separate and each works with its intended driver.

3) I use "Kester 44" solder, rosin core, 0.031 diameter. PE sells it for $20.49/1 lb. spool:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=370-074

Solders listed as 60/40 are good too. It's important to get rosin core though. I don't think I'd want anything thinner than 0.031 diameter. My 0.031 is still mighty thin.

I can comment on the issues with using larger gauge speaker wire with crossovers because I've used 18, 16 and 12 gauge over the years. I'll never use 12 gauge again (it happened to be what I had on hand at the time) because the main issue is that it takes too long to heat up to a high enough temperature for the solder to melt which could cause many different problems including "cold solder joints" and damaging driver terminals or the driver itself. I've mostly used 16 gauge wire but have found that 18 gauge is very easy to work with and minimizes those issues mentioned with the 12 gauge wire (also I picked up about 10 packs of 50 ft. spools of 18 gauge wire when PE had a buyout special for $1.99 a pack, but surprisingly my stock went down faster than I expected).

Ryan_M

07-19-2009, 09:45 PM

Bill can you give some details on your biscuiting jig? The way I do it seems similar to yours, only opposite. Referring to the pic with the jig... I lock down the fence for my TS so the would be the equivalent of your backer board, and doing the same type of cut I would bring in the biscuit cutter where you have that small board in your hand so the wood would be sandwiched between the fence and the cutter. The bottom of my biscuit cutter slides on the saw table.

I lose height adjustment but with my cutter the blade is just the right height to get the slot pretty close to the center of the end of a piece of 3/4" board. Of course the actual height doesn't matter since the cuts are both referenced off the TS top the are exactly at the same height. If I want to leave a little extra for trimming later then I get something thin for the cutter to ride on (~1/16" thick) and do the cut in the side of the board (not the end) that way.

WWWJD

07-19-2009, 09:53 PM

I'm officially jealous of your tool collection.

I'm coming over. :D

One thing is apparent to me when dryfitting - this speaker is SMALL!

Ditto on that; hit a similar spot tonight when I realized these are the smallest enclosures I've ever built. I'm used to car audio subs n' stuff over 1.5 cubic feet.. in a way, this is a bigger challenge because every little goof shows big because of scale..

Hal H

07-20-2009, 12:00 AM

Very nice work, Bill!!

Hal H

williamrschneider

07-20-2009, 07:40 AM

Bill can you give some details on your biscuiting jig?

Sure, I'll make a sketch of the jig later today. It's really simple though.

WWWJD... Yeah, I've been fortunate to have a little space to make nifty tools possible. Now I want a larger space, and that would cost WAY more than a few power tools! Actually my "shop" is a storage space under a two car garage and has fairly low ceilings. Can't build big/tall things easily! That's why this small project is perfect for me. No heavy lifting, either!

Hal... Thanks!

williamrschneider

07-20-2009, 03:43 PM

OK, Ryan. Here are some details of the biscuit cutter jig that I use now.

First, the overall view of it...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuitjig1txt_sml.jpg

The footprint is 18x24 inches as you can see. I routed a 3/8" x 3/8" groove parallel to the back edge about 6" in. You'll see why in a subsequent picture. Also on the back edge is a bottom cleat to keep the plunge force from moving the jig across the table. It engages the edge of the worktable, but I still use clamps when I use the jig..

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuit_jig_side_txt1sml.jpg

In the following picture, you can see the fences on either side of the cutter...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuitjig_frontface_sml.jpg

When making this jig, I fastened the fences down first making sure they are square. I then place the cutter in the opening, and used clamps to make sure the cutter is flush with the fences before tightening the mounting screws. I clamp that piece of wood there each time I reassemble the jig after I use the cutter handheld.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuit_align_sml.jpg

On my P-C biscuit cutter, there are two holes for screws to hold it down to the jig. On the backside, I've countersunk the screwheads so the bottom lies flat on the workbench.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuitjig_back.jpg

Here's why the groove is handy...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuit_jtr_jig3.jpg

Can you imagine trying to balance the cutter handheld on that tiny surface!?

I always make sure the outside surfaces of workpieces are registered against either the bed of the jig, or against the face of the fences. That will accommodate any changes in thickness of the stock and still have it match up on the outside.

williamrschneider

07-20-2009, 06:48 PM

After work today, I glued up one of the cabinets (top, bottom and two sides). Here's a shot showing the biscuits in place on one half, and the mating part about ready to be pressed into position.

Couldn't show more photos of the gluing beyond that - the glue starts setting up fast.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_cab_apply_glue_sml.jpg

I measured squareness, and gently nudged everything into position before setting it aside for curing overnight.

I almost used my slow-setting glue with so many joints to assemble, but figured that I've had enough practice that I could do it with the ordinary Titebond glue. If I were doing just one joint at a time in a jig, then I'd want a fast setting glue to save time. This method using regular Titebond works for the project at hand.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_cabb_glued1.jpg

Paul Carmody

07-20-2009, 09:13 PM

I'm using 3/4" MDF instead of Paul's 1/2". Local stores here don't carry 1/2" MDF, and I have a bunch of the 3/4" left over from other projects. Depth will be added to the enclosure to keep the interior volume the same as Paul specified.

Bill,
I hate to be yet one more person asking you for a favor here, but do you have a copy of your cut sheet for the 3/4" stock? I'd like to put it up on my website as an alternative to the 1/2".

williamrschneider

07-20-2009, 09:41 PM

Sure, Paul. I already have that in my notebook. I'll just scan it for you and attach it here.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_cut_plans.gif

I think that this is the information you are looking for. I didn't make a plan of how to cut a sheet because I already had tons of smaller pieces to use. I just used what I had on hand.

WayneN

07-20-2009, 11:59 PM

OK, Ryan. Here are some details of the biscuit cutter jig that I use now.

First, the overall view of it...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuitjig1txt_sml.jpg

The footprint is 18x24 inches as you can see. I routed a 3/8" x 3/8" groove parallel to the back edge about 6" in. You'll see why in a subsequent picture. Also on the back edge is a bottom cleat to keep the plunge force from moving the jig across the table. It engages the edge of the worktable, but I still use clamps when I use the jig..

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuit_jig_side_txt1sml.jpg

In the following picture, you can see the fences on either side of the cutter...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuitjig_frontface_sml.jpg

When making this jig, I fastened the fences down first making sure they are square, then place the cutter in the opening, and used clamps to make sure the cutter is flush with the guide surface provided by the fences. I also clamp a piece of wood there each time I reassemble the jig in case I needed to use the cutter handheld.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuit_align_sml.jpg

On my P-C biscuit cutter, there are two holes for screws to hold it down to the jig. On the backside, I've countersunk the screwheads so the bottom lies flat on the workbench.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuitjig_back.jpg

Here's why the groove is handy...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/biscuit_jtr_jig3.jpg

Can you imagine trying to balance the cutter handheld on that tiny surface!?

I always make sure the outside surfaces of workpieces are registered against either the bed of the jig, or against the face of the fences. That will accommodate any changes in thickness of the stock and still have it match up on the outside.

Thanks for sharing Bill,

This Jig will definitely be added to the work shop;)

WayneN

Wolf

07-21-2009, 12:22 AM

Then I went on to crosscutting the newly ripped boards. That's a piece of cake, and I can cut within 0.005" repeatablility by setting the cut on that nifty miter gauge. No test cuts needed.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/od_crosscut2t_sml.jpg

From there, I set up the biscuit cutter jig for making biscuit slots. The jig is SO much better than trying to do this freehand. Safer too.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_biscuit_cutting1_sml.jpg

After cutting biscuit slots, I did a dry fit. Biscuits were inserted, and the sides, bottom, and top were assembled.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_box_dryfit1_sml.jpg

Here's a check of squareness of the dryfit...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_square_chk1_sml.jpg

And here's a close up of the joints after biscuit cutting/dry assembly...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_dryfit_xup_sml.jpg

That'll do.

One thing is apparent to me when dryfitting - this speaker is SMALL! It's about the same volume as an old set of Paradigm Atoms that I have around here with one blown driver. Maybe I'll attempt a retrofit using Paul's drivers and crossover in follow-on project. I've contacted a salesman about a replacement driver for the Atoms, but he was pessimistic about my chances. This might provide a way to resurrect those old boxes.

That's one of the reasons I try the small-stuff amidst working on the larger projects. They go together quickly, don't take much material, and are a physical challenge in the assembly process at times. Sometimes I need a break from the large stuff, and do something quickly rewarding.

Hope your hands are small!
Wolf

Ryan_M

07-21-2009, 10:54 AM

Thanks Bill! I'll have to remember that little trick for getting a biscuit cut on a miter. BTW I like your choice in miter gauges, I have the same one though mine is sold under the Incra name... I wonder who rebadged who's.

williamrschneider

07-21-2009, 01:30 PM

Wolf...I AM a little concerned about using a removable back (for the first time) with speakers this small. Fitting my hands for wiring is something I'll figure out when the time comes. You're right about mixing big projects with small ones being therapeutic. You can get something done without much fuss or expense, and have the satisfaction of completing a project.

Ryan...I'm sure that Woodcraft rebadges Incra stuff instead of the other way around. I'd like to get another of those miter gauges to use exclusively for making 45 degree cuts - the saw blade tilted kind. If I try to do a tilted blade cut as-is, I'd saw away part of the miter gauge.

This one is calibrated carefully for crosscutting, and if I have to change parts around to clear a tilted blade, it costs half-hour each way making test cuts to get calibrated again. Having two miter gauges - one dedicated to crosscuts, the other to tilted saw cuts - would be ideal, although a little decadent for a hobbyist.

It's the reason I didn't tackle a mitered box this time, although I will pay for the time savings when it comes time to rabbet the rear panel and box. Mitering recesses in a mitered box before assembly is a piece of cake, but not easy for but* joints before OR after assembly.

Ryan_M

07-21-2009, 03:45 PM

This one is calibrated carefully for crosscutting, and if I have to change parts around to clear a tilted blade, it costs half-hour each way making test cuts to get calibrated again. Having two miter gauges - one dedicated to crosscuts, the other to tilted saw cuts - would be ideal, although a little decadent for a hobbyist.

What about making a sled like this (http://woodgears.ca/delta_saw/sled.html) one? I don't know if it would work with your TS or not. That guy happens to have the exact saw as mine but I'm sure it's easily adaptable. I based mine off of his but I made mine a little bigger and used an oak board cut in half and glued back to back so the grain is opposing to hopefully limit warping. I also routed a slot for some t-track (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=61986&cat=1,43455,61994&ap=1) to make a stop similar to the one on top of out miter gauges. Lastly I'll use one of those adhesive tape measures on it again similar to our miter gauges.

Sorry to take your thread OT.:D

williamrschneider

07-21-2009, 06:59 PM

I'll have to build a miter sled sometime. They are raved about by others. For now though, I'll just use what I have (so little time!).

I gave the matter of the removable back some more thought. After using but* joints, I forfeited the option of a square rabbeted opening. I knew I'd have rounded corners, and thought that I'd just sand the corners of the back panel to fit the corners.

I did some playing around in software today, and realized that the rabbet diameter is fairly large. My bit is 1.5" diameter, and that would take a lot of sanding of the back panel corners. I realized that I could drill some holes for a Jasper pin, and route the corners of the back panel to same diameter as the rabbet in the cabinet. I also realized that I could re-use those pin holes as through holes for mounting screws threaded into the Hurricane nuts.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_rear_rabbet.gif

I also realized that if I rabbeted the cabinet 3/4" deep (actually a little more than that to accommodate weatherstrip gasket material), that I wouldn't have to rabbet the mating surface of the back panel. I'm strongly tempted to make it simpler that way. It would have no effect on net enclosure volume at all.

williamrschneider

07-28-2009, 11:23 AM

Good Grief! I'm going so slow that this thread had already scrolled to page 5!

Anyway, I decided to make new baffles with my nifty new 45mm Forstner bit for the tweeter. I couldn't find a reasonably-priced 33mm bit for the body of the tweeter.

I went to Woodcraft's 15%-off sale last Friday hoping to find an oddball Forstner stuck in a corner somewhere, but no joy. I did buy a Router Buddy there, but unfortunately it doesn't fit my Bosch router's plunge base. It lists my router as compatible, but only the fixed base! There's no easy way to drill it to fit either, so I just stuck it on the shelf. I'll keep using my Jasper on the plunge base for now - nothing terribly wrong with that.

After using the Jasper to make the flange recess and through-hole for the woofer, I carefully marked the driver mounting holes on the baffle using transfer punches. To ensure that the driver didn't shift around during marking, I shimmed the sides with thin cardboard to force it to center, then used tape to help prevent shifting.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_find_woofer_mount_holes-008tsml.jpg

Because I'm aiming for a press-fit of the tweeter, and I have the flange recessed too, it's really important to have the through hole concentric with the flange recess. I clamped the baffle securely in place on the drill press table, and changed out the bits to ensure concentricity. However, I did make the recesses for BOTH baffles first, then chucked the bit up again to find center. THEN I changed to the smaller through hole bit and drilled.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_concentric_tweet_bores-001tsml.jpg

Instead of chamfering like I did on my first baffles, I flipped the baffle over, and used the small bit to find center, and then used my new 45mm Forstner on the back to add a counterbore for some finger room.

I pressed in the #8-32 Hurricane nuts for the woofer, test mounted the woofers using #8-32 screws while the Gorilla glue was still wet to ensure a good fit later, and set aside the baffles with woofer mounted for the glue to cure. So far so good.

williamrschneider

07-28-2009, 11:38 AM

While awaiting for the 45mm Forstner last week, I did some measuring of the glued-up cabinet sides to see how I did. Here's what I measured...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_glued_dimensions_sml.gif

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_inside_measurement_table.gif

Part of the fun is to see if I can do cuts more accurately each time, and to assemble things square. Of course, small parts make this more easily done.

On to more assembly...

I did get the baffles glued on last night. I used a couple small brads through the baffle into the sides in each cabinet to prevent parts from shifting when clamped.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_glued_baffles-011tsml.jpg

This is how the inside looks this morning...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_inside_baffle_glued-004tsml.jpg

williamrschneider

07-28-2009, 11:41 AM

One fun little OT thing...

The pill-sized magnets sold by PE for mounting grills are VERY strong. Here's what of of them did when it found a piece of steel in my hand...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/magnet_on_handt.jpg

:) :)

Adrian

07-28-2009, 04:22 PM

Oh wait. . . :D

Ryan_M

07-28-2009, 04:31 PM

Um... why is there a piece of steel in your hand?

williamrschneider

07-28-2009, 05:17 PM

It's a chip of steel from a wedge I was using to split wood for the fireplace back in 1965. I didn't realize it embedded itself in my hand until after it healed. I'm VERY glad that it didn't hit me in the eye - I wasn't wearing any glasses. We didn't take as many precautions way back then.

It doesn't hurt much. Never bothered to have it taken out.

Mgboy

07-28-2009, 05:21 PM

Surgery from a fist fight? :p

** Nevermind, we posted at the same time. Yeah, an eye shot would have been a lot worse.

williamrschneider

07-28-2009, 05:31 PM

Surgery from a fist fight? :p

** Nevermind, we posted at the same time. Yeah, an eye shot would have been a lot worse.

The only thing I ever got from a fist fight was a broken hand and a PO'd mother. No "fists of iron" for me!

williamrschneider

07-28-2009, 05:38 PM

I got a little more done today on the enclosures. Because of dust, I try to do routing outdoors.

Here's my "tower of power" routing workstation outside.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_enclosure_routing-008tsml.jpg

I rabbeted the back of the enclosure with a 3/4" deep cut (1.5" diameter). That forces me now to make round-cornered back panels that fit. Instead of Jasper guiding on the little back panel (an invitation for router tipping), I think I'll just rough bandsaw the corners round, then sand to size.

I also flush-trimmed the baffle to the enclosure, then used a 1/2" roundover bit on the left and right edges. I also used a 1/8" roundover on the rest of it to soften the shape.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_enclosure_routing-025tsml.jpg

Back inside, I did a little minor sanding by taping 80 grit sandpaper to the workbench and rubbing the enclosures around on it, but called it quits at 5 pm. There's going to be time tomorrow, so why knock myself out?

williamrschneider

07-29-2009, 07:53 PM

I worked on the backs today. For simplicity, I decided not to rabbet the back panel itself. I kept it simple, and cut a single rabbet for the enclosure sides deep enough to hold the 3/4" back panel. (See yesterday's post)

After cutting the blanks, I drilled holes for the binding posts and the port tube. The port tube OD is an odd one, and I decided to use a 3/4" forstner bit to drill an oversized recess for it and to fill it with epoxy later.

I used a compass to lay out the corner radii, and then bandsawed the corners roughly to shape.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_work-015tsml.jpg

Then I took it to a disk sander to smooth out the rough bandsaw cut. I sanded until the pencil lines from the compass were gone. This went VERY easily.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_work-041tsml.jpg

Time for a test fit...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_work-030tsml.jpg

I left a little space for a gasket. I like the slight recess on the back panel when mounted. I'm fairly sure the gasket compresses enough to still leave one. (Note: The back panel shown is inadvertently placed with the inside out. Crazy photographer didn't catch that!)

Here's a close up of one corner...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_work-033tsml.jpg

After that work, I began gluing in the corner blocks to hold the hurricane nuts...
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_work-046tsml.jpg

Ryan_M

07-29-2009, 11:04 PM

Man those boxes are TIGHT! Looks like zero room for play.

Eventhough your method of doing the back panel is sort of an after thought (from what I gather from the thread) I really like it. Looks more 'finished' than the basic cover with square corners. I like it! Might have to use that....

Paul Carmody

07-30-2009, 01:26 AM

Here's a close up of one corner...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_work-033tsml.jpg

Woooow! That looks better than CNC.

But seriously, Bill, is SCH 40 1.25" PVC pipe all that odd? ;) (Even though we all know the inside diameter of 1 1/4" is actually 1 3/8"?)

theLinks

07-30-2009, 07:41 AM

Very thorough and great tips. It's great learning new ideas!

williamrschneider

07-30-2009, 07:51 AM

Woooow! That looks better than CNC.

But seriously, Bill, is SCH 40 1.25" PVC pipe all that odd? ;) (Even though we all know the inside diameter of 1 1/4" is actually 1 3/8"?)

Edit: Ooops! Paul -- I just caught your winking smiley. You were having some fun, and it went right over my head. Here's what I wrote defending my statement about the "odd" pipe...

---------
Hmmm, the hardware-store SCH40 PVC that I bought is 1.667" O.D. (average of two right angle measurements). The tubing isn't odd, just its measurements for woodworkers. It's O.D. is bigger than 1-5/8", but less than 1-11/16". I wanted to find a 1-11/16 Forstner to make things fit nicely, but couldn't locate one. I also didn't want to fire up the router/Jasper to make one that way (I got lazy and impatient). That's why I just used my 1-3/4" Forstner, and I'll just pot the tube in it's oversized hole (by ~ 0.041" all around) with some epoxy.
--------

The OD hole doesn't go completely through the back. It's a counter bore on the inside, and the through hole will be routed flush with the tube I.D. after the epoxy has set. I'll probably use a small 1/4" roundover on the through hole in the back to make it look nice.

The back fits nicely and looks good, but I hope that I left enough clearance for the paint thickness. I have a habit of not leaving enough room for paint buildup - especially for tweeter recesses. I've had to file the tweeter flange O.D.s a smidge to fit before.

williamrschneider

07-30-2009, 11:55 AM

I've been pondering what kind of paint finish I want to use for this project. I've identified something I don't have any experience doing. I want to emulate (as much as possible) the surface of some ceramic pieces that my wife bought at a student art sale. She loves the color in particular.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_ceramic_1.jpg

And the micro-texture of the glaze plus the accent color is nicely done...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_ceramic_2.jpg

I found a couple of General Finishes colors from Woodcraft that are very similar. One is an antique white, the other is a Sage Green...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/general_finishes_sage_green.jpg

I've had great luck with another experiment spraying water-based General Finishes paints, and want to try these colors for something different from my usual veneer-plus-black-paint.

Lowe's has some faux finish substances that put a porcelein crackle on their latex paints, and I wondered if it would work with the General Finishes paints too. I might paint the antique white first, then the sage green, gently sand through the green at the edges, and afterwards treat it with the crackle stuff. I would top coat it with clear to add sheen.

I'll be giving this some thought next week when I won't be able to work on these because of some job-related activities.

But if anyone here is an expert on crackle finishes or the gentle gradation of color at the corners of an object, I'd love to hear any tips.

williamrschneider

07-31-2009, 11:39 PM

Today was the last time I can work on these for about a week. Job stuff interfering with a hobby, you know.

It might not look like much progress, but I did apply a couple coats of Zinsser de-waxed shellac to seal them, applied a little spot putty were things weren't perfectly smooth, and sanded quite a bit. They feel nice and smooth to the touch, but sure don't look like much right now in their unfinished state.

I used a transfer punch to mark the locations of the mounting holes on the blocks in the cabinet, drilled holes and pressed in #10-32 hurricane nuts. I had to order some #10-32 fasteners from McMaster-Carr because our local Lowe's has only #10-24 machine screws. Phhht.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_detail-005tsml.jpg

After I marked and drilled the holes on one of the backs, I used the transfer punch to mark the second back, and drilled its holes, then used the punches again on the second cabinet. Handy things, those transfer punches!

Here's where I will be stopping for a while. It's probably a good thing at this point to allow strains from curing glue/evaporating moisture to flex the MDF into a more final state before final sanding, then finishing.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_back_detail-025tsml.jpg

bolland83

07-31-2009, 11:48 PM

Wow! You got serious patience man. Those are coming along really nice though. I like the attention to detail and precision, those are gonna be sweet looking when they are finished.

arlis_1957@yahoo.com

08-01-2009, 12:07 AM

very nice so far. cant wait to see the finish.

WayneN

08-01-2009, 09:30 AM

williamrschneider

08-01-2009, 12:17 PM

Thanks, Wayne!

I'll be looking for that. If I don't have the skill to pull it off, well, there's always sandpaper!

WayneN

08-11-2009, 11:52 PM

Thanks, Wayne!

I'll be looking for that. If I don't have the skill to pull it off, well, there's always sandpaper!

Bill,

You have a PM.

WayneN

donparsons

08-12-2009, 12:36 AM

Great looking build Bill.

Looking through this thread I was thinking that all my speakers shoiuld be called "Overnight Sensations".

I toil for months in obscurity working on them then bang: "Overnight Sensations"

I have some that are getting close to picture ready. :)

williamrschneider

08-12-2009, 07:58 AM

I just got back from an 8-day business trip in Santa Fe, so I'll get back to these after cutting grass (good heavens! - it grew almost 6 inches in the 8 days I was gone! Too much rain this summer!) and running other errands.

Wayne - thanks for the info. I'll experiment with that. It's what I want, so I hope it works.

Don - yeah, I was thinking how unlike "Overnight" this build is for me. If I wanted to, I could be listening to them tonight, but they wouldn't be where I want them.

I must be the slowest builder on the planet. That's OK with me though. I enjoy making things better each time. That takes time.

I do have a couple pictures to add though. I did manage to sneak down into the basement last evening to cut port tubes and silicon them into the backs...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_cut_ports-003tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_port_gluing-002tsml.jpg

After it had cured for several hours, I ran an additional fillet of silicon around the joint. The glue joint isn't as pretty now, but it will be stronger for the routing that follows.

I cut the sonic barrier damping material on the bandsaw, and punched through-holes in it where the stub dowel legs of the crossovers will pass through to mount to the cabinet...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_cutting_sonicbarriertsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_punch_sonicbarrier-003tsml.jpg

williamrschneider

08-12-2009, 07:50 PM

Because it rained most of today, I was able to get into the shop instead of mowing.

I applied another coat of sanding sealer, and sanded that smooth...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_mdf_sheen-005tsml.jpg

Then I looked carefully for any unsmooth areas (especially the but* joints) and applied 3M automotive spot putty that I will sand down tomorrow.

I began to fret a bit about where to place the crossovers inside the cabinet. I realized that the port occupied a significant part of the available space, and that my original plan wasn't going to work. I played around a bit with the crossover boards and found something that I think will work, and started gluing the crossovers to the cabinets.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_gluing%20xovers-003tsml.jpg

My goal is to remove the boards from their dowel feet for painting, then apply the sonic barrier, and finally reattach the crossovers using the screws. My original placement didn't leave much room to fit a stubby screwdriver and fat hands into the cabinet. I hope this new configuration works out OK.

It better!

depthsounder

08-12-2009, 10:24 PM

They are looking nice Bill. Watching your progress is making me itch to start a new build, but alas the opposite is happening.

I'm moving to take a new job this weekend, and we will be renting a 2br 2ba cottage home near the beach; with no garage! We will be there for at least 6 months while we house shop.

I'm hoping to find a house with a good sized garage or a separate workshop; so at least I have something to look forward to.

I just sold one of my table saws (the one I had set up for permanent cross cutting duty), and am about to pack up the other one for the foreseeable future.

I'll have to get my DIY fix vicariously by continuing to follow this thread.

-David

williamrschneider

08-13-2009, 07:41 AM

Oww!

Well, at least it's temporary. The good news is that it's near a beach - at least that sounds good to me.

I look at the builds here too when I'm too busy to do it myself. I REALLY wish I had the time to dig into designing my own speakers, but even in summers when teaching is light, time is still in short supply. I'm just thankful for the designs made public by the people here and in other online places.

williamrschneider

08-13-2009, 12:07 PM

I did a little more work before breakfast. I sanded down the 3M spot putty, and applied a smidge more on some areas that still needed leveling.

Because the tweeter boards had been glued in last night, it was fairly easy to play around with fitting a stubby screwdriver into the cabinet and estimating clearance. The screwdriver on a screw occupied almost all interior width, so I decided to place BOTH crossover boards on the same wall. It was the only way I would be able to remove them later if I needed.

The woofer board is a little shorter than the tweeter board, and that was enough to fit (barely!) under the port tube. If I were doing this again, I might offset the port tube like the tweeter to permit additional space for crossover board placement. It's TIGHT in there!

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_porttube_clearancesml.jpg

Then I pulled out the tweeter boards, leaving only their stub legs, and glued the woofer boards to the wall.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_woofer_xover_gluingtsml.jpg

I'm glad I built this with a removable back. I don't know how I would remove the crossovers (if needed) if I had permanently placed the port tubes in a fixed back.

williamrschneider

08-13-2009, 08:08 PM

One last post for the day...

The glue had dried on all the crossover feet, so I punched the sonic barrier and test fitted it in the cabinet. Perfect fit! I'll stick it down permanently after I paint the cabinets.

I couldn't fit everything in using my original plan (tweeter xover on bottom, woofer on side), so both crossovers were moved to one side. That's an argument for making a one-piece crossover instead of separating them like I did.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_sonicbarrier_punched-1tsml.jpg

Glad to finally have the crossover mounting solved and to see that everything finally fits.

Time for priming and painting next!

williamrschneider

08-15-2009, 07:34 PM

Painting has started. I applied primer Friday, and sprayed General Finishes Antique White today after sanding the primer.

I've had good luck spraying General Finishes Milk Paint in the past, but this antique white gave me a little trouble. I believe it is more viscous than other GF paints - perhaps it's an old can from the shelf. For another project, I sprayed some GF Brick Red yesterday just fine after diluting it my standard of 1 oz. distilled water to 16 oz. paint.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_firstpaint-001tsml.jpg

That didn't work as well with the antique white though. It went on a little rough. I also didn't strain the can of paint, and got a couple of paint boogers applied on one of the cabs.

I'll dilute further next time after sanding this coat smooth, and strain the paint for any thick blobs for the next coat.

I am tempted to stop now, put them together and listen, but because the tweeters are press fitted, it might cause some problems trying to get them apart for further painting.

Patience, Bill - patience!

Paul Carmody

08-16-2009, 11:06 PM

What's the final look you're going for? Are you still doing the ceramic look?

williamrschneider

08-17-2009, 07:24 AM

The ceramic look is still in my mind, although if it goes poorly, I'll abandon it for a more traditional paint job.

I applied the second coat of white yesterday after thinning the paint some more and straining, but still had problems with clumps. Paint is drying on the nozzle tip as it is sprayed, and occasionally it comes free. I started wiping the spray gun tip every couple of minutes which helps.

The white will show through just on the edges though. I will overcoat with the green, and then gently remove some of the green on the edges using fine steel wool. What happens to the white in the middle of a panel isn't that important, and I can sand off the small lumps easily there.

Still, I'd like to be done with the "spraying chunks" problem.

I'm a relative newbie when it comes to spray gun/compressor usage, so any tips from spray finish veterans are welcome. I'm attempting to use water-based finishes, and I realize that creates a new set of problems.

badman

08-17-2009, 10:25 AM

Impressive work. This is something we can point to when people say "You spent HOW much on drivers?"

williamrschneider

08-17-2009, 05:33 PM

Impressive work. This is something we can point to when people say "You spent HOW much on drivers?"

I hope so. I'm not patting myself on the back until the project is done though. In the past, I've managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. ;)

I sprayed the third coat of white on the cabs today. Sanding has to be done very gently at this point, or I go right through the paint on the edges and corners. Then I'd have to repaint.

I've used the whole pint of antique white paint so far. I hope today's paint job is the final one for the white undercoat, or I have to order another pint of paint.

I'm going to apply two clear coats after this to help prevent sand-through during follow-on work.

One edge of one baffle shows the glue line no matter what I do to it. I assume that the MDF there is still "breathing" in the awful humidy we are experiencing. I sand it smooth in the basement (air conditioned) but as soon as I apply the paint (hot garage), it shows again. I hope it settles down a bit. It's the only one I see, so I'm not sure why it behaves badly when all the other but* joints are invisible.

Here's a shot of my high-zoot painting facility...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_garage_painting-1sml.jpg

I paint each cabinet on the work platform shown on the right, then hang them up to paint the backside of the cabinets. I'm also afraid that one might come tumbling down, so to prevent catastrophic damage, I shoved some garage "stuff" under them to catch them.

Here's a shot of the back panels drying...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_painted_backs-1tsml.jpg

Included in this shot are a couple pieces of scrap MDF that are also being painted to use for finishing experiments later.

WWWJD

08-17-2009, 08:18 PM

What are the little pyramid thingies?

williamrschneider

08-17-2009, 09:17 PM

What are the little pyramid thingies?

They concentrate the earth's magnetic field to properly align the electrons in the curing paint for the best sound... ;) ;)

Naaa...

I use them to hold the items being painted an inch or two off the backboard. Woodcraft sells them. They're called painter's pyramids.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Images/products/148416_230.jpg

With spray work, it's difficult to get paint into a corner evenly. With things elevated a bit, the spray is more even. Plain old blocks of scrap MDF would work too, but then my painting facility wouldn't be as high-zoot as it is.

WWWJD

08-17-2009, 10:34 PM

They concentrate the earth's magnetic field to properly align the electrons in the curing paint for the best sound... ;) ;)

Naaa...

I use them to hold the items being painted an inch or two off the backboard. Woodcraft sells them. They're called painter's pyramids.

:D HA! I think I liked your first explanation better. Hard to get good, solid, reverberant sound without controlling magnetic reflection.

john trials

08-18-2009, 08:30 AM

This build is so cool. Thanks for posting all the pictures. You do such a nice job on the cabinets.

If you really think your speakers might fall while drying, you should use a hammock underneath to catch them (or hang the speakers much closer to you crash pads). It'd be a shame if one of those got ruined.

williamrschneider

08-18-2009, 09:33 AM

I don't think they'll fall, but you can never be too sure. I've got a couple strands of steel wire attached to the bolts on the front. I'll probably wind on another strand just in case. (There I go worrying again!)

I love the hammock idea though! Maybe I like it too much - if I had a hammock, I'd probably spend my free time taking naps instead of working!

While the forecast is for rain (and that impacts my open-air, high-zoot painting area), the weather looks OK now. My goal is to get one clear coat on today.

Off and running with fingers crossed....

williamrschneider

08-18-2009, 05:41 PM

I got ready to paint today, but thought that I could use a larger board on which to put things for painting. The old piece of cardboard I've been using was looking pretty dismal. Maybe I could actually fit TWO items on one large board and reduce my handling of freshly painted things.

Not only that, but the lighting in my posh, high-zoot painting studio isn't the best. At some angles, I can't see glancing light on the surface of the paint. I've wished to be able to move things around for better visibility.

I decided to kill two birds with one board.

No, I didn't add more lights! Keep reading....!

I made a rotary painting table for my portable workstand using a lazy susan bearing that I've had lying around for a while.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_paint_rotary_build1.jpg

I found a piece of 2' x 4' x 1/4" plywood, and made a base for it with the bearing to allow me to rotate the piece being painted.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_paint_rotary_build2.jpg

The rotary base bottom has a piece of 2x2 mounted down the center to allow my workstand to clamp onto it, holding things securely in place.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_paint_rotary_build3.jpg

And here's how it looks attached to my workstand...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_paint_rotary.gif

I didn't get any painting done today, but this will help me see things better when I do paint.

Now is THIS posh and high-zoot, or what?!

theLinks

08-18-2009, 07:59 PM

There's nothing like learning something new. You are an educator besides an inventor.

john trials

08-19-2009, 08:08 AM

You've built your own Leslie rotating speaker!

williamrschneider

08-19-2009, 12:46 PM

There's nothing like learning something new. You are an educator besides an inventor.

I'm always learning new things by trying things I haven't done before. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you always learn something.

The educator part?...well that's my day job from September through June. Good guess!

John: Clever observation about the Leslie! That didn't even enter my mind after setting up the animation.

williamrschneider

08-19-2009, 03:51 PM

SETBACK!

I applied the General Finishes Clear Gloss Polycrylic today. I found it to be very thin compared to their paints - almost water-thin. My gun likes to spray thin fluids, or so I thought.

I applied it quickly - like I said, it came out fast. I did throttle back the fluid flow a little, but apparently not enough. After spraying, I went inside to take the gun apart for cleaning, and found THIS MESS when I returned to the garage....

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_running_clear_drips-001tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_running_clear_drips-002tsml.jpg

I've sprayed lots of things using rattle cans, but never encountered runs this bad. In fact, I don't even remember the last run I've had on a paint job. I am also confused why it waited until I went inside to clean the gun to start running (hey - maybe an angry neighbor did it?).

Talk about a learning moment! It's back to sandpaper after this mess dries. I hope I don't sand through the white undercoat, and have to start from scratch. I'm running out of free days before work starts up again.

jclin4

08-19-2009, 04:35 PM

OUCH! I hope it does not take too much sanding to remove! You have always impressed me with how meticulous and clever you are with tools, methods, jigs, etc. I know you will recover, but sorry you are now a bit under the gun...

davepellegrene

08-20-2009, 10:34 AM

SETBACK!

I applied the General Finishes Clear Gloss Polycrylic today. I found it to be very thin compared to their paints - almost water-thin. My gun likes to spray thin fluids, or so I thought.

I applied it quickly - like I said, it came out fast. I did throttle back the fluid flow a little, but apparently not enough. After spraying, I went inside to take the gun apart for cleaning, and found THIS MESS when I returned to the garage....

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_running_clear_drips-001tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_running_clear_drips-002tsml.jpg

I've sprayed lots of things using rattle cans, but never encountered runs this bad. In fact, I don't even remember my last run on a paint job. I am also confused why it waited until I went inside to clean the gun to start running (hey - maybe an angry neighbor did it?).

Talk about a learning moment! It's back to sandpaper after this mess dries. I hope I don't sand through the white undercoat, and have to start from scratch. I'm running out of free days before work starts up again.

Hate when that happens. I have used a good sharp razor blade held on an angle like putting puddy on to start taking off the high spots. then sand paper on a wood block and then recoat before you sand it all out. Then sand again. Keeping a build up of clear coat until you get it all out. Awesome job so far Bill.
See you are from Athens. Have you heard of Cajun Lake? Small water ski lake there.

williamrschneider

08-20-2009, 11:17 AM

WayneN

08-20-2009, 11:22 AM

I only use hard woods for all of my projects and have had on occasion blotches of poly similar to what you had happen here and I have used retractable window scraper blades on a slight angle and with very little pressure applied with very good luck.

WayneN

davepellegrene

08-20-2009, 12:34 PM

Thanks for the words of encouragement. A razor blade as a scraper, hmmm. I was thinking about using a block plane to take off the high spots before using sandpaper.

BTW, Dave, I wish I had your painting skills. Your Nightmares are spectacular.

I haven't heard of Cajun Lake, so if it is nearby, it's not a widely known place.

I would be a little worried with the block plane. It may just grab and pull out a chunk. The razor blade would be drug across on the opposite angle as what the block plane is. In other words put it between your thumb and index finger. Like Wayne said very light. If the finish is hard enough you can straighten the angle and apply more pressure to take off the finish faster, but be careful. The harder the finish is the better the razor blade will work.
Thanks for the complement on my Nightmares. Believe me I have learned most everything the hard way. On my dock box project I ran the second coat just like that in one spot so bad that I had drops hanging off the bottom. Spar Urethane flows so well that it can run right off your project if not careful. Looks good when your done. Go back 15 minutes later and it sagged all over the place. Spraying finish is all about thinner speed and the temperature you spray at. Figure that out and you got it made.
Not sure if you are thinning your finish. If so a faster drying thinner will help a lot.
Cajun lake is owned my the principal of a/the high school there. Saw you are in the education field. Thought you may now it.
Dave

williamrschneider

08-20-2009, 01:08 PM

I did think twice about using the plane, and used a razor blade like you guys suggested to take off the tops of the drips. The finish is still rubbery in the thick areas, so I set it aside to cure for another day before trying to sand much.

I will need another pint of white paint though. I did manage to take some areas down to the MDF.

The finishes are all water-based, so on a humid day they don't evaporate very quickly. I'll have to apply a much thinner coat of the acrylic gloss coat next time. I hope I can still hold a gloss with a very thin coat, and not get a frosty surface.

WayneN

08-20-2009, 01:27 PM

I would be a little worried with the block plane. It may just grab and pull out a chunk. The razor blade would be drug across on the opposite angle as what the block plane is. In other words put it between your thumb and index finger. Like Wayne said very light. If the finish is hard enough you can straighten the angle and apply more pressure to take off the finish faster, but be careful. The harder the finish is the better the razor blade will work.
Thanks for the complement on my Nightmares. Believe me I have learned most everything the hard way. On my dock box project I ran the second coat just like that in one spot so bad that I had drops hanging off the bottom. Spar Urethane flows so well that it can run right off your project if not careful. Looks good when your done. Go back 15 minutes later and it sagged all over the place. Spraying finish is all about thinner speed and the temperature you spray at. Figure that out and you got it made.
Not sure if you are thinning your finish. If so a faster drying thinner will help a lot.
Cajun lake is owned my the principal of a/the high school there. Saw you are in the education field. Thought you may now it.
Dave

I had to take a break from Reno work (laying new hard wood); I agree with Dave a block plane I also think will be a bit much. One thing that came to mind and maybe Dave has done this? If you don’t have a window scraper and your nervous or not sure of having a blade in your fingers I have also taken a razor blade and placed it between the thickness of a pack of matches as this will raise it enough off of your finished surface as well control the area you want to shave down (one pack of match on the outer ends and the baled in the middle) on a very slight angle and lightly drawed across the blotch ever so slightly shaving it down. The drier the surface the better the result.

I know it’s a bugger but patience always pays off.

BTW Dave, I checked out your site, NICE Work:D

WayneN

williamrschneider

08-23-2009, 02:06 PM

I took a few days off to calm down after the drips/runs fiasco. During sanding down of the ruined finish, I realized that I'm building up a fair thickness of paint on driver recesses and the back.

I was mostly concerned about the tweeter clearance, because that was the tightest fit. I turned the 45mm Forstner bit by hand to clean out the opening, and I'm glad I did. Some mighty thick bits of paint were being cut out of the recess, and I'm sure the tweeter wouldn't fit that way (unless I file/sand the tweeter flange OD, but that's cheating).

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_forstner_paintclnup-1tsml.jpg

That of course chipped the paint around the periphery, and required more sanding to smooth out.

I made an executive decision to abandon the ceramic-look because I'm already in trouble with paint thickness build-up. I'm going for the green color alone without all the extra applications of crackle glaze. I'm reluctant to do this after getting this far, but feel I have to.

I did add a coat of antique white this morning, and I'll add one more coat - using it like a primer. It sands easily when cured (now, how do I know that? :)), and it keeps the door open for one little experiment I'd like to try along the way.

Here's a shot showing a cabinet just before re-painting this morning...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_painttake2-tsml.jpg

While I was away from this project, I took the time to complete my Zaph ZMV5 build (finish the stands, make grills, paint baffle). I posted a couple photos in my Miscellaneous album here on the PE board (http://techtalk.parts-express.com/album.php?albumid=48). I had planned to make the baffle a different color than black, but my wife promised them to a friend before I could do that. The friend wanted black.

Now you're probably thinking that it was a bit uncool for my wife to give them away, but she has just gone through a few surgeries, and our friend was indispensable in helping us with that. That's why I didn't complain much.

mzisserson

08-23-2009, 03:43 PM

I'm officially jealous of your tool collection.

I'm coming over. :D

Me too.

Looks amazing... Keep up the good work! :)

WayneN

08-24-2009, 09:23 PM

To bad that you had all the paint troubles, would have been nice to see how they turned out with the crackle effect:rolleyes:

For friendship and support like that, a small token of appreciation for home made, high quality speakers, now that’s COOL;)

WayneN

williamrschneider

08-24-2009, 09:39 PM

To bad that you had all the paint troubles, would have been nice to see how they turned out with the crackle effect:rolleyes:

WayneN

I'm still chipping away at the finish (now THAT'S badly put!). Put a new coat on today (no sense showing more photos of just paint), and will try for another coat tomorrow.

All the coats of paint required for the crackle finish and edge-fades like I wanted would probably fill up the tweeter recess. I have to back off.

If I had begun with a solid color in mind, or even veneer, I'd be done by now. At least I learned something along the way, and that's worth something. Finishing has always been my weak point, and this build has taught me what not to do.

On another note, I place an order for Mad's Scanspeak Recession Buster Reference kit today. I'm still not done with my year-long build of a Zaph ZDT3.5 (has needed veneer for months), or with a 12" RSS 315 subwoofer that I cut parts for two years ago. I must be nuts.

williamrschneider

08-25-2009, 08:33 PM

I said that I wouldn't bore anyone with more paint details....

but...

this fits into the experimental category and someone might like to see the outcome.

I admired the finish on some ceramic pieces shown earlier in the thread, including the gentle blend from one color to another in the glaze. In my experiments, I undercoated the cabinets with a warm white color, added a light coat of gloss, and then overcoated that with a green paint.

I wanted to see if I could simulate the gentle gradations of the ceramic by sanding through the top color carefully at the edges of the cabinet. While I couldn't get the gradation to be a gentle gradient like the ceramic glaze, I did like what I was seeing on the 1/8" roundover edges.

Note the lightening around the port tube opening in this shot...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_greenpaint1-002tsml.jpg

Also see how nicely it defines an edge on the cabinet...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_greenpaint1-007tsml.jpg

However, it did NOT work on larger roundovers. I couldn't get it sanded evenly enough to look good.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_greenpaint1-006tsml.jpg

I might add another coat of green (yeah, I'd better!), then just do the sharper edges and leave the big roundover alone.

One benefit of all the painting and sanding is that there are NO glue lines showing at the but* joints. Yet. We'll see if that holds true weeks or months in the future.

WayneN

08-25-2009, 09:00 PM

williamrschneider

08-26-2009, 06:51 AM

Yes, I could do that, but overnight I decided not to try for the "pinstripe" look unless I could do something really cool - as in a custom car. If I start down that path, I'll never get these done.

Since I need to recoat again, I decided that the green paint was too dark. I want something lighter and livelier, so I'll mix some antique white with the sage green for the perfect color.

mgrabow

08-31-2009, 08:18 PM

SETBACK!

I applied the General Finishes Clear Gloss Polycrylic today. I found it to be very thin compared to their paints - almost water-thin. My gun likes to spray thin fluids, or so I thought.

I applied it quickly - like I said, it came out fast. I did throttle back the fluid flow a little, but apparently not enough. After spraying, I went inside to take the gun apart for cleaning, and found THIS MESS when I returned to the garage....

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_running_clear_drips-001tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_running_clear_drips-002tsml.jpg

I've sprayed lots of things using rattle cans, but never encountered runs this bad. In fact, I don't even remember my last run on a paint job. I am also confused why it waited until I went inside to clean the gun to start running (hey - maybe an angry neighbor did it?).

Talk about a learning moment! It's back to sandpaper after this mess dries. I hope I don't sand through the white undercoat, and have to start from scratch. I'm running out of free days before work starts up again.

Now that I only use General Finishes arm-R-Seal, I would believe this. It is a self leveling poly hence it will run when applied vertically... My last project toom a month just so apply this because i caould only do one side at a time...

williamrschneider

08-31-2009, 09:58 PM

I did back way off on the fluid flow in my spray gun, and I've had better results. I think that today's coat will be the last one - I'm growing impatient, and my sandpaper bill is getting out of hand.

Pictures soon.

williamrschneider

09-01-2009, 03:12 PM

Here are the pictures I promised of the paint job. I'll be assembling these shortly.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_finishpainting-018tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_finishpainting-028tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_finishpainting-032tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_finishpainting-035tsml.jpg

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_finishpainting-047tsml.jpg

First off, they don't look as good in person. I can make almost anything look good in a photo - except myself. Gloss coatings are something I'm going to avoid from now on.

Still, at normal viewing distances, they don't look so bad. I learned a lot about painting with this project - mostly what NOT to do in the future.

And FORGET about me trying more advanced methods like simulating the work of a skilled ceramic artist! I've found my limits, and the bar is set fairly low.

Hal H

09-01-2009, 05:58 PM

Bill, those look great!!!

williamrschneider

09-02-2009, 10:31 PM

Thanks, Hal!

Well, what do you know? They got much better looking today after I rubbed them out with a mix of Happich Simichrome polish and paste wax. They're baby-but* smooth now - wife thinks they look like plastic though. Sigh.

I finished assembling them today also, and I'm listening to them now. Nice!

Hey Paul, did you use any stuffing in the cabinets? The first one sounded a little boxy, so I added a substantial fill of accoustistuff into the second, but killed most of the bass. My guess is that the best sound will be found somewhere between the two.

Here's a few snaps of the final assembly, beginning with adhering the sonic barrier onto the interior walls...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-017tsml.jpg

Putting the binding posts onto the back plate...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-024tsml.jpg

Mounting crossovers into the cabinets...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-039tsml.jpg

Buttoning up the back of the cabinets...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-051tsml.jpg

Mounting the tweeter (I must say that I GREATLY prefer a screwed-in tweeter than a press fit. That was a real nuisance to get into the baffle.)

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-066tsml.jpg

And finally a snap with a CD for size...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-056tsml.jpg

I'll try for some better pictures soon. Time has run out tonight.

romanbednarek

09-02-2009, 11:16 PM

Thanks, Hal!

They got better looking today after I rubbed them out with a mix of Happich Simichrome polish and paste wax. They're baby-but* smooth now - wife thinks they look like plastic though. Sigh.

I finished assembling them today also, and I'm listening to them now. Nice!

Hey Paul, did you use any stuffing in the cabinets? The first one sounded a little boxy, so I added a substantial fill of accoustistuff into the second, but killed most of the bass. My guess is that the best sound will be found somewhere between the two.

Here's a few snaps of the final assembly, beginning with adhering the sonic barrier onto the interior walls...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-017tsml.jpg

Putting the binding posts onto the back plate...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-024tsml.jpg

Mounting crossovers into the cabinets...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-039tsml.jpg

Buttoning up the back of the cabinets...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-051tsml.jpg

Mounting the tweeter (I must say that I GREATLY prefer a screwed-in tweeter than a press fit. That was a real nuisance to get into the baffle.)

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-066tsml.jpg

And finally a snap with a CD for size...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-056tsml.jpg

I'll try for some better pictures soon. Time has run out tonight.

Very nice job! Your patience certainly exceeds mine when it comes to finishing speakers (my worst experience was when I built a pair of Microbe SE speakers for an old friend from college... the raw cherry veneer that I first used was too light and an attempt with "Polyshades" to darken them failed so I had to remove the veneer with an iron/putty knife and orbital sander and ended up using some quilted bubinga that I had on hand... the final result is shown on my Microbe SE project page).

Regarding stuffing in a ported cabinet... I found that unless the stuffing is placed very liberally and judiciously, it will reduce the output of the port (I've taken several measurements) so I typically rely on decent cabinet wall lining and no stuffing (and by the way I used the same wall lining in all of the Microbes that I've built). I'm convinced that many people who say that the bass is tighter with stuffing added to a ported design are just hearing less bass because the port output is attenuated (and some designs may benefit from this but it is still in theory a loss of energy/efficiency and a shift closer to a sealed cabinet design which has a higher f3).

The boxy sound that you are hearing may be due to bass distortion from such a small woofer trying to reproduce bass notes. I've found this to be a common symptom of most small ported speaker designs... you really can't expect a 4-5" woofer to sound like a 7-8" woofer in the bass range (just look at Zaph's distortion plots below 200 Hz for different sized woofers).

Paul Carmody

09-03-2009, 01:00 AM

Hey Paul, did you use any stuffing in the cabinets? The first one sounded a little boxy, so I added a substantial fill of accoustistuff into the second, but killed most of the bass. My guess is that the best sound will be found somewhere between the two.

Golly, those look great! I really like the paint color; it's so refreshing to see something other than black (I've done my share, though so I'll hush up:rolleyes:)
So what if she thinks they're plastic? It's MDF... that's like the "silly putty" version of wood, anyway.

In terms of the stuffing, I actually did not line the cabinets at all. I stuffed them moderately with polyfil. It took a bit of experimentation, I remember that. I also remember that, when placed directly on a surface (ie: table, desk) they had a lot of bass slam; so calling it "boxy" may be within reason. I liked the sound of them best when placed on a pair of stands, or on top of another pair of speakers. Unfortunately, I haven't heard them in a while as I lent them to my wife's uncle to play his ipod through, and he still hasn't given them back! :mad: But I digress, I think your best bet--seeing as you've already lined the sides is just light fill of polyfil, maybe filling only half the cabinet. That SHOULD give you the right blend of bass extension and curtailing the boxiness. Also experiment with placing them on a table versus on a stand or on top of another speaker.

Anyway, they look super-cool, and I hope to God you'll let me use some of your photos on my site!

Wolf

09-03-2009, 02:19 AM

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations/os_assembly-056tsml.jpg

Nice look, and a very nice contrast for the alumi-bronze cones!
Nicely executed is an understatement,
Wolf

williamrschneider

09-03-2009, 07:12 AM

Thanks for the comments! Looks like I'll be playing with stuffing to find what is the best combination. That's the Y in DIY. FWIW, they are currently sitting on my Pluto subwoofers that lift them about 18" off the ground. I do need some proper stands for them.

Paul - help yourself to all the pics you want to use. After all, it's your design. You had the goodwill to post it for free, so the pictures will represent a small repayment. You can browse all the online files at:

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/images/overnight_sensations

Take what you want. I hope to have better final pictures within a day or two.

Roman - That finishing experience/disaster with cherry sounds very much like my modus! I'm familiar with the sinking feeling when something doesn't work out. You saw the paint runs earlier in this project - thank goodness for the invention of sandpaper!

Wolf - I had the woofer color in mind when I chose the color. One of our best friends is a striking redhead, and is always wearing green to contrast with her hair. (Even her walls are painted green!) I agree that basic black can get monotonous.

jclin4

09-03-2009, 08:16 AM

Absolutely beautiful work! I love the rounded corners on the removable back panel and how they fit perfectly into the cabinet. This speaks of a very high level of craftsmanship!

Just a thought on boxy sound: maybe you are actually hearing the cabinet and resonances? Possibly the back panel might be the culprit, in which case gasket tape lining would be the solution.

williamrschneider

09-03-2009, 02:20 PM

Thanks for the suggestion. I already have gasket tape on the face of the rabbet for the back panel (I didn't put up any photos of that), and there's also an inch of sonic barrier adhered to it.

I really think the solution is finding the right amount of stuffing now recognizing that Paul used it originally in his build. Another clue is that in the cabinet where I added (a lot of) stuffing, the boxy sound disappeared. I just have to find the right amount of stuffing that tames it and doesn't reduce low bass significantly.

They do sound good though, and I'm confident that further experiments will make them better yet.

fish-24_7

09-03-2009, 02:53 PM

Absolutely beautiful work! I love the rounded corners on the removable back panel and how they fit perfectly into the cabinet. This speaks of a very high level of craftsmanship!

+1. These are very good looking speakers. You should be proud. Your diligence has been repaid with a great result! If they sound half as good as they look you have a real winner here.

Mark65

09-03-2009, 10:19 PM

Bill, I've been following along with interest, and I have to say well done!

I hope someday to have half the skill (and tools:cool:) that you do, just awesome!

Mark

williamrschneider

09-03-2009, 10:55 PM

Thanks for the comments! It feels good to be done with the fretting about the finish. It actually turned out well, although I didn't match the ceramic look that was the ultimate goal.

Happily, I learned a lot about painting with this build - one of the ulterior personal goals I had in mind.

Mark - tools accrue with time. I'm old, and therefore have many tools. ;) Still, I keep thinking it would be fun to tackle a build using only a hand saw, some screwdrivers, and some other assorted small tools as a kind of "handicap challenge".

WayneN

09-03-2009, 11:25 PM

Bill,

They look awesome!

As a newbie to speaker building which is quite different from making furniture, I thank you for sharing your skills along the way. I have learned a lot from following this thread and a few nice tips for my future build which will start once I complete our renovations.
How do they sound?

WayneN

jclin4

09-04-2009, 09:26 AM

How did the experiments with the stuffing turn out? There's been some other recent discussion on stuffing a vented enclosure:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=212777

This motivated me to play with stuffing on my own vented MTM towers. I put in what I thought was a modest amount behind each of the 4 mid-woofers and just like you experienced, the bass was all but killed off. Removing maybe a quarter to a third of the stuffing restored and tightened the bass.

But what was surprising was that the midrange cleared-up quite noticably as well, before which I didn't realize it needed clearing-up. A case of not knowing what you are missing until you are given a taste, I think, and of finding the happy medium you were also seeking.

williamrschneider

09-04-2009, 08:53 PM

These came to life after playing with the stuffing. I put in about a fist-sized fluffed-out piece of stuffing near the back plate directly behind the woofer, and that did it.

These things sound Way, WAY, WAY bigger than their small size would suggest! Paul nailed it - they would be perfect as the only speakers in a room with space limitations. They filled my medium sized listening room with BIG sound, and at one time, I had to check the switch to verify that they were the speakers playing instead of my main set.

If someone builds these, play the Reference Recording "Fiesta" to see how much of the lower registers they fill. These little things defy physics, and I'm tickled to have them!

WWWJD

09-04-2009, 10:25 PM

Good Lord.... you're killing me dude... I'm actually going to get veneer laid down on mine starting tomorrow... 3 day weekend. I'm psyched. All of my guts are ready for installation.. just need to pretty them up. Definitely be paying attention to stuffing.. thanks for the heads up Bill. Based on your review, and based on my short lived experience with them when I was anxious 2 or 3 weeks ago, I'm dying.

Probably have to bolt them down on my desk to keep them from walking off. What are you using for amplification? I'm only gonna have around 10 watts per channel on my setup. Saving grace is they'll be living at work; near field listening only.

williamrschneider

09-05-2009, 07:16 AM

What are you using for amplification?

I used the inexpensive Audiosource Amp 100 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-601&FTR=audiosource%20amp%20100&CFID=5117636&CFTOKEN=45026784), 50w/ch unit from PE. It's a good little amp for the money, and has volume/balance controls.

Can't wait to see your interpretation of these speakers! It's much more ambitious than what I did. I love curved sides and integrated electronics of yours. Get busy!

pvillanova

09-09-2009, 01:44 PM

WoW!!! Great write up. New to the DIY speaker community and having just started my ZMV5 build 2 weeks ago, I am envious of the advanced techniques you are using (<1/120" tolerance!!!).

Being an engineer, as I assume you are, I can certainly appreciate the time it takes to do this job...

That being said, based on this thread and some others, I must say they should be retitled to say, "Engineers Gone Wild"...

Paul

williamrschneider

09-09-2009, 03:26 PM

Your going to like the ZMV5. I built it and have some photos in my gallery here at PE. There was also a ZMV5 buid thread started about a year ago (http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=207143) in which a couple of us shared build experiences.

Yes, I was an engineer (past tense). After ten years of doing it, I left to pursue another passion, photography. I now teach in a photo/design department, but you can't take the engineer out of the man.

Have fun with the ZMV5 build. You'll love the accuracy of its sound when you're done!

PunkSweeper

09-09-2009, 03:56 PM

jonpike

09-10-2009, 02:08 AM

Very cool Bill... great documentation as well as results! They look great! Learned more than a few things in building and finish work, too...

Kind of embarrassed to suggest something to you, lowly woodcrafter that I am... but I had been told that a scraper works great for the finish runs, and it is true. Very easy to control and will shave just a tiny amount at a time. Being a long straightedge, it will cut the high spots first, till the whole surface is flat. Great to use instead of sandpaper for much of the smoothing and leveling work on the box and finish. I'm glad the Rockler guy turned me on to them.

There, hope that helps keep the sandpaper bill in line.... :D

williamrschneider

09-10-2009, 07:23 AM

Actually that's an excellent idea. I purchased a scraper about a year ago, but never really mastered it. The thought crossed my mind at the time of the accident, but I was wary of learning a new tool at this point in the project.

Your post does remind me that I need to finish what I started, and learn to use the scraper.

I found that a local company, Stewart MacDonald (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools.html), has all sorts of tools and parts for making guitars, banjos and other stringed instruments. Among the gems they sell are a scraper burnisher jig for putting the perfect edge on a scraper.

http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1sm/3416_1sm.jpg

While they are in town somewhere, I've never been in their store!