Pro Amp for Blue Wonders

[c-rad]

Howdy folks,

I'll be building a pair of Blue Wonders :D(http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Blue) for Dj'ing purposes very soon - the parts are enroute. This will be my second speaker building project, and I've got some questions for y'all.

I'm going to need an amp to power them, and I'm looking at about a $500 budget.

I've been going through the forum and the Crown K2's and the QSC RMX series seems to be fairly well regarded. There seems to be very mixed reviews of the Behringer EP series :rolleyes:.

I've found a Crown k2 on craigslist for ~$500. Is this my best option considering the purpose, or are there other amps that will also work just as good or better? I am not well informed when it comes to pro amps. For instance, would the QSC RMX 2450 be a better choice than the Crown K2? I'm thinking I would ideally need about 1000 watts RMS to drive these, whereas the spec's of these two amps are about 500 watts RMS. Will they still be able to do the job given the driver load?:confused:

And I'm using all Eminence drivers, and the sub (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-579&ctab=1#Tabs) , as well as the mid's and high's are listed as 8 ohms. Does this mean I will NOT have the option of running my amp at 4 ohms without damaging them? Or is this just a matter of wiring? (I've only ever driven speakers at 8 ohms)

And something I've never really worried about (because it hasn't been a problem), but now I am wondering: Why does the tweeter not blow when I'm delivering huge amounts of power to the subs. Are the tweeter's not getting the same amount of power?

More questions::p I was going to make the crossovers passive for simplicity's sake, but should I leave these open to bi-amping (with active crossovers) in the future if I do get another amp? Would this make a huge difference in sound quality, or for DJ'ing gigs is that just being silly?

And I didn't order any post mounts for speaker stands. How big (and heavy) can speakers be before you shouldn't put them on poles? I'm guessing these are gonna be pretty heavy...:eek:

1 more: Are there any advantages as far as sound quality is concerned when it comes to inputs? Specifically XLR vs 1/4" Jacks.

Thanks for any and all input!!

C-RAD.

[Flint]

I'll offer a few answers--first about active vs. passive: probably the main reason to go active is for versatility, because you can tweak so many settings so easily, no sims or soldering needed. That is if you have something like the DCX2496.

About amps: the Crown K2 is a nice unit and won't bother you with fan noise. One should give you plenty of output unless you're in a really large space, and then you'd need more speaker.

About power to the tweeter: if you have 4th order (passive) crossover slopes then the tweeter won't see all that much power even if you have 500watts on tap. Most of the total power is at lower frequencies.

It looks like you would have an 8 ohm speaker, so there's no way to run the amp at 4 ohms. To do that you could use two woofers in parallel.

[Paul O]

OK.. first thing you should know is that for SR purposes you want the speakers to be elevated over most peaoples heads, that is so the sound isn't soaked up and reflected by the first few people in front of the speakers. The second thing you need to know is subs belong on the ground.. particularly when the quantity of subs is small in relation to the room size, boundaries are your friend. So that means these blue wonders are ALL WRONG for this type application, a sub/satellite combo will deliver much better results. To that end consider building some small 2-way boxes like a 10+1 or 12+1 and adding 1 or 2 seperate 15" or 18" subs. This can be powered from a single 2-channel amplifier in a couple different ways, the least effective would be with all passive crossovers and full stereo, the most effective would be with an active crossover with subs on Ch A and tops on Ch B, but then that is also mono.

[billfitzmaurice]

OK.. first thing you should know is that for SR purposes you want the speakers to be elevated over most peaoples heads, that is so the sound isn't soaked up and reflected by the first few people in front of the speakers. The second thing you need to know is subs belong on the ground.. particularly when the quantity of subs is small in relation to the room size, boundaries are your friend. So that means these blue wonders are ALL WRONG for this type application, a sub/satellite combo will deliver much better results. To that end consider building some small 2-way boxes like a 10+1 or 12+1 and adding 1 or 2 seperate 15" or 18" subs. This can be powered from a single 2-channel amplifier in a couple different ways, the least effective would be with all passive crossovers and full stereo, the most effective would be with an active crossover with subs on Ch A and tops on Ch B, but then that is also mono.+1 on all points. Unfortunately for the OP his question should have been posted prior to deciding on a cab and ordering parts for it.

[SpasticColin]

+1 on all points. Unfortunately for the OP his question should have been posted prior to deciding on a cab and ordering parts for it.

Well, he didn't, but he can still split the Blue Wonder design into high/low boxes. If he wants to. Just takes a little cipherin'. The pole mount deal would work just fine then.

[daveh]

Well, he didn't, but he can still split the Blue Wonder design into high/low boxes. If he wants to. Just takes a little cipherin'. The pole mount deal would work just fine then.

I'm not so sure the OP even ordered the parts for the blue wonders. The hammer drivers are no longer available. If he did substitution for available drivers, I'm not sure how well this project will turn out...

DaveH

[billfitzmaurice]

Well, he didn't, but he can still split the Blue Wonder design into high/low boxes.
Doing so requires a crossover no higher than 150 Hz, preferably 100-125Hz.

[SpasticColin]

SpasticColin sez: "Well, he didn't, but he can still split the Blue Wonder design into high/low boxes. If he wants to. Just takes a little cipherin'. The pole mount deal would work just fine then."


I'm not so sure the OP even ordered the parts for the blue wonders. The hammer drivers are no longer available. If he did substitution for available drivers, I'm not sure how well this project will turn out...

DaveH


Doing so requires a crossover no higher than 150 Hz, preferably 100-125Hz.

Exactly so. That would be the cipherin' part.

SC

[jasonc]

I built a pair of the "Blue Wonders" back when the buyout drivers were available, and I use them for occasional light-duty DJ work- usually in conjunction with a pair of line array type speakers. They work okay for my purposes and I'm relatively happy with them especially for what they cost me.

That said, they're not what I would call a pro-sound speaker. Sure, there's pro-sound drivers in there but that's only a part of the equation. Bill F and Paul O are right (and that's no surprise) that these need to be elevated to get good coverage and that bass- frankly, unimpressive to me even when they're on the floor- will suffer. That's the reason I use the line arrays to get better "throw" and coverage.

So, they're big, heavy, difficult to lug around, and voiced like a hi-fi speaker, BUT they also incorporate some good drivers, they're loud, and they'll handle 200-300 watts of power. They can work for not-too-serious DJ applications but there are much better ways to go.

There's no point in trying to be extremely loud with these speakers: I feel that if you've got an amp that'll supply a clean 250 watts at 8 Ohms, that you'll get about all you're going to get from the Blue Wonders. Anything more would be overkill, IMO, unless you're planning to get more serious speakers.

[joeybutts]

This is some very good info to know! Thanks guys.

Would you cross the raised speakers/subwoofers for a DJ application at about the same point you would car stereo/HT? right around 80-100?

[jasonc]

Would you cross the raised speakers/subwoofers for a DJ application at about the same point you would car stereo/HT? right around 80-100?

Yes. Depends on the speakers you're using, but consider 150hz or so to be about the upper limit. Electronic crossovers and separate amplification is the way to go. A little delay on the tops works wonders for sound quality, as was mentioned above. Read here: http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

[joeybutts]

awesome. Thanks!

One last thing. Are there any plans anywhere for current DJ like speakers that anyone knows of? Thanks!


/hi-jack :D

[DSM]

awesome. Thanks!

One last thing. Are there any plans anywhere for current DJ like speakers that anyone knows of? Thanks!


/hi-jack :D

Bill F. ???

[billfitzmaurice]

Bill F. ???

The address was already posted. ;)

[joeybutts]

:) Sorry guys. Thanks! :)

[c-rad]

Hey guy's, thanks for the replies.

Alright, I get that the mid's and the high's need to be high up to throw properly, hence the pole question, but why would the subs need to be on the ground? If the enclosure is made properly, won't they function the same regardless? Are we just talking about the desirability of the vibrations being passed on to the crowd through the floor?

And I don't mind separating the mids/ highs from the subs - this makes sense to me. I would like to have my cake and eat it too. My goals are to make speakers that have very high quality sound, as well as much oomph that can be reasonable expected from these drivers (since I've already ordered them). I play very hard hitting bass-filled music at parties, and I'm also an audiophile. So on to the next things:

I'm using the Eminence 8" and 18" woofers that Darren originally specified in the writeup. When it comes to enclosures I am capable of building any design (within reason).

My questions are, if I am going to mess with the design, what would be the best way to go about it with these drivers?

I've built a pair of 2 way transmission line towers that I absolutely love. Should I perhaps consider making the mid's (8") transmission line satellites? I'm assuming this would give me much better mid-bass, and be quite efficient [as well as much bigger, not sure how much bigger (than my 6 1/2" transmission lines)].

Now these next questions are aimed at Bill Fitzmaurice: After a first thorough perusal of your site (just now) I really wish I had ordered 15" so I could build a Tuba design (not to mention the DR250). #$^*!! :mad: The parts have shipped however, and now I know for the future.

So. Would any of your horn designs be appropriate for the 8" drivers I've ordered? And if so could my single tweeter keep up with it?

And since I have 2 18's (that I'm sorta stuck with), should I put them in the same enclosure (could this be more efficient?), or create stereo bass and have 2 separate bins?

If a folded horn design is not on the table, what's my next best option? These are still good quality subs, & I should be able to get some pretty decent bass out of them one way or the other.

I recently rented a Yorkville LS1208 (http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=152), and it worked pretty good. Couldn't I build the equivalent of two of these? Any idea where I should look for links on how to go about designing such an enclosure? :confused:

Thanks for more input!!

Conrad.

[billfitzmaurice]

Hey guy's, thanks for the replies.

Alright, I get that the mid's and the high's need to be high up to throw properly, hence the pole question, but why would the subs need to be on the ground? If the enclosure is made properly, won't they function the same regardless? Are we just talking about the desirability of the vibrations being passed on to the crowd through the floor? You can't cluster two subs that are split to either side. Split subs are almost always a bad idea.


So. Would any of your horn designs be appropriate for the 8" drivers I've ordered? DR200, though that's a rather complicated build.


And if so could my single tweeter keep up with it? DR200 is loaded with one eight and two ASD1001s.

[c-rad]

The DR200? Sounds good to me, all I'd have to do is order two more ASD1001S tweeters then.

And the build difficulty is not an issue as I am a carpenter, and I kinda like going about things the hard way.

Have you any advice on what to do with the 18's? (I know you're not a fan :rolleyes:)

[Paul O]

What 18's are you getting? Some are more suitable to horn loading then others. Check speakerplans.com for some 18" designs..

[wg_ski]

Have you any advice on what to do with the 18's? (I know you're not a fan :rolleyes:)

Six cubic foot vented boxes? Sometimes it's a matter of 'use what you have'....

[billfitzmaurice]

Have you any advice on what to do with the 18's? (I know you're not a fan :rolleyes:)Sell them, build T30s or T39s loaded with Eminence 3012LF twelves for twice the output with half the power.

[wg_ski]

What 18's are you getting? Some are more suitable to horn loading then others. Check speakerplans.com for some 18" designs..

Prolly the Definimax 18's, since they were equivalent to the original buyouts used in the Wonders. Not exactly a first choice for horn loading. Even Rog's designs work better with 15's than 18's.

[Paul O]

Prolly the Definimax 18's, since they were equivalent to the original buyouts used in the Wonders.

I though they would be closer to the Omega or Signma Pros but that was from a quick glance at the specs.. could be mistaken. Of all of these the Omega's are probably the best candidates for a horn but there are certainly much better options out there including some 12 and 15" drivers.

[billfitzmaurice]

I though they would be closer to the Omega or Signma Pros but that was from a quick glance at the specs.. could be mistaken. Of all of these the Omega's are probably the best candidates for a horn but there are certainly much better options out there including some 12 and 15" drivers.
By the picture, now gone, they're not 4018s. No specs up either, but I doubt they approach the 7.9mm xmax of the 4018. BTW, OEM drivers seldom use the top of the line frame. Most likely this is a Omega Pro frame. As for horn loading 18s, forget it. Here's why:
http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1130

[DSM]

By the picture, now gone, they're not 4018s. No specs up either, but I doubt they approach the 7.9mm xmax of the 4018. BTW, OEM drivers seldom use the top of the line frame. Most likely this is a Omega Pro frame. As for horn loading 18s, forget it. Here's why:
http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1130

+1.

Bassmaxx has switched from 18s to four 10" drivers on one of their horns.

http://www.bassmaxx.com/products/pdfs/z5000.pdf

[c-rad]

Ok, you've all convinced me (I helped as well).

I'm sending the 18's back for refund, and I'm getting... what?!? :confused:

My options for amp and subs are open. I'm going to build DR200 tops.

So, I'm assuming at this point the best amp for approx $500 is the crown K2 amp (used). Please correct me if I'm wrong (K2 will be used to drive the subs only, a separate amp will drive the DR200's).

So, what would be the best design for a sub with this amp? Could it handle a Tuba 36 with two fifteens for instance? Or would one of the designs with one 15 or one or two 12's work best? I'm a decent DJ, carpenter and speaker builder - but an audio engineer or speaker designer I am not yet near. Please advise.

These will get moved around for DJ gigs, so I'm looking to get the best bass out of a somewhat reasonable sized box. If it could fit in the back of a civic hatchback for instance, that would be a plus (This example this can: http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=382). I'm betting that people who have built these designs know exactly what they will fit in and won't. ;) Otherwise, size doesn't really matter - cause it would be a truck or a van. I'm convince-able either way, depending on the trade-offs.

I guess my question is: what's the real world difference [between a Tuba 36 with two fifteens VS a Tuba 30 loaded with an Eminence Delta 12 LF driver] in sound output and in power requirements? I'm fine with (relatively) vague untechnical descriptions - I'd just like to know people's experiences.

And seriously: thanks for all the input!:D

[billfitzmaurice]

I guess my question is: what's the real world difference [between a Tuba 36 with two fifteens VS a Tuba 30 loaded with an Eminence Delta 12 LF driver] in sound output and in power requirements? I'm fine with (relatively) vague untechnical descriptions - I'd just like to know people's experiences.

A 2x15 T36 requires a truck to haul it and four people to load it. :eek:
The D12LF is displacement limited to 120 watts.:(
To get opinions from actual owners of them you should be posting questions about my cabs on my forum, http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/

[wg_ski]

A 2x15 T36 requires a truck to haul it and four people to load it. :eek:


And 4 T24's fit in a car (one in each of 3 seats, and one in the trunk), and takes one person four trips to load in/out. But at least it's possible. For a DJ with no truck multiple smaller horns make more sense.

[glenfoxman]

everyone...

Ive been running Pro Tools LE 7.4 on my MacBook Pro OS X 10.4.11 with MBox2 Mini. Today, I saw an ad for M-Audio Firewire 410 with Pro Tools Academic 7.3 at an extremely low price, so I bought it.

And then, I found out that Digidesign is discontinuing the line.

Should I keep my LE, or lose the MBox2 Mini and use the Firewire 4100?
Of course, then Ill have to buy M-Powered.

What is this Academic, anyway?

Id appreciate your help...
_______________________________________
Website I designed for payday loans for canadians (http://www.paydaytown.com) company.

[billfitzmaurice]

everyone...

Ive been running Pro Tools LE 7.4 on my MacBook Pro OS X 10.4.11 with MBox2 Mini. Today, I saw an ad for M-Audio Firewire 410 with Pro Tools Academic 7.3 at an extremely low price, so I bought it.

And then, I found out that Digidesign is discontinuing the line.

Should I keep my LE, or lose the MBox2 Mini and use the Firewire 4100?
Of course, then Ill have to buy M-Powered.

What is this Academic, anyway?

Id appreciate your help...
_______________________________________
Website I designed for payday loans for canadians (http://www.paydaytown.com) company.
More than a bit OT aren't we? You might want to start a new thread.