DIYowa 2009 is in the books

[shawn_a]

Thanks to Doug and family for hosting yet another great show this year. Also thanks to Maynard and Jason for their help in making the show go off with what I think was a big success. Twitter didn't happen for me today so I'm sorry about that. Problems with connectivity is what I chalk it up to.

I'll post more when I'm on a computer and not my phone.

shawn

[bmaupin]

I was wondering about the tweet follow-along. Too bad, I always enjoy it.

[Jason]

As usual, Doug ran another great show this year. Lots of great new designs to see and hear. I'll leave the more detailed reviews to those who were listening closer. For now here are some pictures: http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o80/jkandreasen/DIY2009/?start=all

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o80/jkandreasen/DIY2009/IMGP6836.jpg

[Mark65]

Looks like great fun as usual, can't wait to see more pics/results!


Mark

[DougP]

These things are a lot of fun. I will work on the pictures and results tomorrow. I'm wiped out but I do have a couple short comments.

The mid-range class this year was just stacked with amazing speakers. The level of the entrants was very very high.

Listening to Judas Priest on Dan's Basslines at 104db (at 1 meter / peaks of close to 110db)) was stunning to say the least. They were still clear as a bell. My kind of speaker:D

It was a great time. I hope that everyone had a good time and I am looking forward to next year.

Doug

[Wolf]

Yes, thanks to all attending the event, and to the host of the most.
I think it went over quite well, and it was a fun/LONG day.
Tomorrow, the road home....
Wolf

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

it was my first. what a great bunch of guys. a room full of ,just people. my shot did not go so well but there were some very nice speakers indeed. be safe on the road home:)
i'll have a few more comments and a few pics tomarrow. i drove 3 hours each way and all i got was some coasters!!!!:D i got pics of them to. just joking, i got to shake hands with some very fine fellows:)
thanks to doug for his dedication to the hobby.
http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/iowa2009/IMG_3189.jpg

[tom_s]

It was a great time! Thanks to Doug and his wife, Maynard, Dennis, and Jason for their work to make this all possible. And to everyone who attended. This is a great group of people. All willing to share knowledge-even to competitors within their class! There wasn't a single dog in this show, and more than a few that were truly stunning! Just to be there and soak up some knowledge and gain some perspective was a treat. I think everyone would agree that it all ended too quickly.

See you all again next year!

Tom

[maynardg]

A great event indeed. The fun and the quality get better every year. Great speakers in each class.

The budget class had a few computer monitor sized speaks, any one of which exceeded my expectatons.

Best sound in the about $200 range was Marty's XT25 over W5-1685 two way. Very nice. That Tang Band can play low, albeit not with great efficiency. And a gorgeous cabinet.

Wolf's Vijon was also very impressive, for more $$.

The midrange class was packed with thoroughly competent designs... any one of which would have won the class handily just a few years ago. My fave was Curt's C's Maverick (Option B). I preferred the conventional crossover to the quasi-transient perfect XO. Either was just smashing. What Clapton is to guitar-playing, Curt is to DIY speakers. The guy simply has it figured out.

Finally, whatever was limiting Dan's Basslines at Dayton was cleard up. Really dynamic, really clean - played effortlessly at levels that would melt most speakers. Visually striking.

When I get back to Florida, I'll post my play list. I hope others will do the same. On of the nice benefits of attending is learning about new music.

Sleep now!

[Pete Schumacher ®]

What a great DIY!!! So good to see all the guys (and gals).


Basslines . . . Oh my what a smashing success Dan.

The Peerless buyout two-way was excellent. And I agree with Maynard on the TB 5.25" two-way. What an impressive driver. The two way was implemented very well.

The 8" two-ways were both well done, balanced, and deceptively full ranged. Kudos. I'm sure those will see some duplicate efforts rather soon.

Of the larger and more expensive systems on display, the Marcatos and the Dual RS150 BG 3-way really impressed me with the clarity of presentation. The bass performance of the RS150 was quite impressive, but still not quite where the Marcatos or Ziran were, and understandably so. Shawn's Usher Fanboy TM was impressive as well. Those Usher woofers are really great values, even at the prices they get.

And Curt's HDS-TB-Dayton system had the requisite voicing and balance for which Curt has a well deserved reputation. He offered "A" and "B" versions of the crossover for us to evaluate. The differences were subtle, but noticeable. He chose a beautiful piece of music to show off the systems, with some very dynamic music, deep bass along with vocals and orchestral layers. "A" was the transient perfect version, with 2 octaves of overlap between mid and woof. This version has a much shallower slope for the woofer, allowing the lower midrange to be handled by both drivers in phase quadrature. I must admit, that there was a character to the music that was very enveloping. I tried to focus on anything that I could that seemed like a limitation (tough job on a Curt design) but the balance was just so good. But when there was a percussive transient in the bass, I noticed just the slightest modulation of the male vocal that wasn't there as noticeably in the "B" version. In a more intimate setting, that's not likely to be a issue with reduced power levels. Very nice result, regardless whether A or B.

What a great day. There just weren't any bad efforts to be heard. While some were noticeably better than others, most all seemed to exhibit good voicing and balance between the drivers involved. The standards at the DIYs are getting very high indeed.

[S7910]

This was my first as well. Kudos to Doug and all who helped make this event possible. It was great to be able to put (screen) names with faces, and with such a welcoming group to boot.:)

BTW: for those interested my demo song was the "Advent Rising Suite" from the CD Video Games Live vol. 1. Should still be available online at Barnes & Noble.

Safe journey home to all.

Matt

[Operandi]

Lots of awesome speakers there, looked like fun ;).

Looking forward to reading the reviews/comments.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

i have a few pics on photobucket. http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/iowa2009/ but shawns are much better. doug will have each builder with their builds. thanks to all who tolerated all my questions. thanks to dennis for all his effort with his testing rig. this was my first, will not be my last. lowell
they say a piture is worth a 1000 words, they meant this one:)
http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/iowa2009/IMG_3178.jpg

[DougP]

i have a few pics on photobucket. http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/iowa2009/ but shawns are much better. doug will have each builder with their builds. thanks to all who tolerated all my questions. thanks to dennis for all his effort with his testing rig. this was my first, will not be my last. lowell
they say a piture is worth a 1000 words, they meant this one:)
http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/iowa2009/IMG_3178.jpg

That picture truly shows what it is all about. Speaking of pictures I have mine up on photo bucket. Enjoy.

I also wanted to thank Dennis for bringing his measurement setup, Jason for working with the vendors to get our door prizes, Maynard for putting together the test tracks and burning all the CD's, and Todd for bringing speaker cables. I still can't find mine, I'm not sure what box they got put in when we moved. Oh well I have about 51 weeks to find them.

Doug

http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii184/dougyp333/Iowa%20DIY%202009/

[turn2]

Kudos to Doug! Great entries, great attendance and a great venue. Thanks a bunch.

Last year I was a newcomer and I was awed, even though I had read about these events ahead of time. This year I conned my brother into coming. I suspect his expectations weren't that high. It was amusing to listen to his reactions on the ride home. Funny how this hobby can sink its hooks into you so easily. I suspect some of the reasons can be found right above in this thread. Thanks to all for a thoroughly enjoyable day. And congrats to all who brought such wonderful creations!

[Jim Holtz]

I can only add to the other comments. Another great show. Thanks to Doug, Maynard and Jason for all of their hard work! I really appreciate the opportunity to see old friends and meet new ones.

Lots of great designs and design efforts! The bar goes up each year!

I spent the day taking pictures, talking and listening to great speakers. HERE (http://picasaweb.google.com/jholtz.us/2009IowaDIYEvent#) is a link to the pictures I took.

Jim

[DougP]

I can only add to the other comments. Another great show. Thanks to Doug, Maynard and Jason for all of their hard work! I really appreciate the opportunity to see old friends and meet new ones.

Lots of great designs and design efforts! The bar goes up each year!

I spent the day taking pictures, talking and listening to great speakers. HERE (http://picasaweb.google.com/jholtz.us/2009IowaDIYEvent#) is a link to the pictures I took.

Jim

Jim and Jason I hope it's ok. I linked your pictures on the Iowa 2009 website.
Doug

[martyh]

i have a few pics on photobucket. http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/iowa2009/ but shawns are much better. doug will have each builder with their builds. thanks to all who tolerated all my questions. thanks to dennis for all his effort with his testing rig. this was my first, will not be my last. lowell
they say a piture is worth a 1000 words, they meant this one:)
http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/iowa2009/IMG_3178.jpg

While I'm pleased that my little project was so well received, I'm even prouder of being in this picture. This IS what the event is all about!

Thanks to Doug, his family and all of the great people that make this the one weekend I'll look forward to for the next 51 weeks.

[johnnyrichards]

I'm going next year. I'll find something to bring.

[robert]

Thank you, Doug - great event and very well-organized and well worth the trip.

Cheers / Robert

[deewan]

I am even more torn now on which even I should have attended this weekend. I really wanted to attend this Iowa DIY, but the chance of another trip to Madison and watching the Hawks beat the Wis-can't-win Badgers was just too much.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x105/darrenwander/IMG_0346.jpg

I really hope to make this meet next year. It would be great to hear some of these projects and meet the faces behind the screen names and postings. I'm curious, will any of these speakers have build threads or project BOM's listed? I'm curious to see Marty's XT25 over W5-1685 two way and the design for whoever built these...
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii184/dougyp333/Iowa%20DIY%202009/DSC03507.jpg
I'm guessing those are Usher drivers, and I've always been a fan of their look and sound and wanted to build something using them.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

johnny, i have a mini-van. you can always drive here and we'll share the rest.

[DougP]

I am even more torn now on which even I should have attended this weekend. I really wanted to attend this Iowa DIY, but the chance of another trip to Madison and watching the Hawks beat the Wis-can't-win Badgers was just too much.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x105/darrenwander/IMG_0346.jpg

I really hope to make this meet next year. It would be great to hear some of these projects and meet the faces behind the screen names and postings. I'm curious, will any of these speakers have build threads or project BOM's listed? I'm curious to see Marty's XT25 over W5-1685 two way and the design for whoever built these...
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii184/dougyp333/Iowa%20DIY%202009/DSC03507.jpg
I'm guessing those are Usher drivers, and I've always been a fan of their look and sound and wanted to build something using them.

Those are Paul K's speakers the Marcato. He posts on the board from time to time. I'll send you his e-mail in a PM. I'm sure he will be happy to share the details of his build.
Doug

[turn2]

Those are Paul K's speakers the Marcato. He posts on the board from time to time. I'll send you his e-mail in a PM. I'm sure he will be happy to share the details of his build.
Doug
Those would just be too much class wasted on a hawk fan. ;)

[deewan]

Those would just be too much class wasted on a hawk fan. ;)

Oh, then does anybody have something without any class they can share for my next build? Maybe something using a cardboard box as a cabinet, mismatched drivers, and metal coat hangers instead of internal speaker wire? :)

thanks for the info guys! I really hope to make it next year.

[brianwalter]

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said other than "Thank you to Doug's wife for picking up the pizza for lunch", I for one really appreciated it. I must admit, there were 3 speakers there that I would be more than willing to replace mine with, those were Dan's Basslines, Paul's Marcato's and Curt's HDS-TB-Dayton speakers, whatever they were called, all three of those were simply stunning in my opinion.

But I still find it amazing how great sounding the budget and super-budget speakers are. Kudos to everyone who brought speakers, you deserve a big "Thank You" as without them it wouldn't even be a show.

Thanks again to Doug and family and Mayard and Jason it was a great success.

Brian Walter

[Paul K.]

I had a great time. It was tiring as always between two 10-hour drives one day apart and my ears getting tired and less discriminating as the event day wore on. A big thanks to Doug, his wife and his son for planning this event and to Maynard and Jason for their help. There were only maybe 2 or 3 speakers that had any significant problems. All of the rest were competent to very good both relative to their respective classes and overall.
Paul

[Dirk]

Here's my takeaways:

1. I agree; it was over too soon.
2. Thank you Doug & family!
4. This is a brilliant community we've got. Intelligent, funny & gracious. Any expressions of ego during the day were all in good fun.

(now for the geekier stuff)

5. The DQ25 is an amazing little tweet. Not perfect, but showing up in ALL classes (save unlimited) definitely says something.
6. Similarly, I haven't met an RS28 project I didn't like.
7. Scott Sehlin's Matrix was the first audition of the midrange class and was a serious standard by which the other projects could be judged. The low-level detail out of that Neo8 was crazy good.
8. If you are thinking about building a project and you see the XO was by Curt C, build it.
9. I preferred version #2 of the Maverick XO. Soundstage seemed wider.
10. I was mostly serious about bags of insulation in front of the stage. I think the majority of the bass issues were from the front baffles coupling to the stage edge and then the floor.

[johnnyrichards]

That might be arranged Arlis. Next year!

[Tony Nelson]

I just spent about an hour and a half reading this thread and looking at all the pictures that everyone has posted/linked. All I can say is WOW! Everyone's entries look amazing, and I am sure they all sounded even better. I would love to attend one of these events just to be there and look at the outstanding craftmanship and designs. It would be nice to learn from the pros as there is no way I could put together anything of that quality right now.

Thanks to all of you who posted pictures. I will stay tuned for more. Looked like alot of fun for sure.

[dlneubec]

This was probably the most enjoyable Iowa event I've been to (the last three). They get better every year due to the dedicated work of the volunteers who set them up and their faimiles and the outstanding work and welcoming attitude of all the participants. Special thanks to Doug, his wife and son for everything, including welcoming a bunch of speaker geeks into their home Friday night, and also to Jason and Maynard for their help with door prizes and music.

First off, the overall quality of the speakers seems to improve every year, not only in the sound, but in the looks of the entries. Each class was really excellent throughout and all the speakers were well done, but a few stood out to me as the best in their class. I will resrtict my comments to speakers I was not involved in the design of, so that takes out my entry and Paul's Marcatos.

In the superbudget class, I liked Dirk's O-Really? (is that how you spell it, or just how you say it?), followed by Rory Buzka's "Stones". Very nice job fellas. They were both very well balanced, with nice voicing and considerable bass for the driver and box sizes.

In the budget class there were some really excellent entries and for me, it was very close amongst about the top 5 or so. The top three in my book were Marty's Tandband 2way, Todd Premo's Cryolites and Wolf's "Max" (yup, Wolf, in that room I preferred them over the Vijon's!).

If pressed to pick a winner, I would give the nod to Todd's Matrix, due to a smidge better midrange balance and clarity, though I preferred Marty's bass impelmentation. Really great job by all three guys and I can tell you that none of them would disappoint you.

I thought the the budget class might be good enough to give the midrange a run for its money and it did, but the midrange entries did step the game up and satisfy with some outstanding entries and even closer competition. Not including Paul's Marcatos, my favorites were Curt's Mavericks (B version), Scott Sehlin's Matrix, Shawn's Arpeggios and Maynard's Ziron. I preffered the B version of the Mavericks because I thought the soundstage was more natural sounding, imaging was improved and the midrange seemed a little more open with improved woofer to mid balance. Fantastic job, Curt. Kudo's also to Wayne for creating a visually stunning and acoustically dead cabinet to go with the sound.

I agree with Dirk, Scott's neo8 midrange/neo3 tweeter implementation was really excellent and if that had been combined with a little more stout bass section they might have cleaned up.

Shawns Arpeggios are just flat out excellent all around, especially notable for competing with some excellent 3ways.

I know Maynard did not have the Ziron's at their best. He said he had overworked them and lost some of the "magic" he had about a month ago. I can really identify with this, since I went through the same thing with the BaSSlines over the last 9 months. Still, they were one of the best. I believe he has them close and if he can get that magic back, they will be great. A very nice job on the cabinets and finish.

Among these midrange entries, I'd have to give the nod to the Maverick-B as nudging out the rest. I can't imagine anyone not being thrilled to have any of them in their home. Great job guys!

Also, the designer's music selections were excellent as well. I hope you all post your music selections in the music thread. It would be really great to have a compilation cd out of what all was played!

[shawn_a]

Yeah, I think the Mavericks were the most impressive of the day. However I liked the A better. The bass presentation seemed a bit fluffy on B and it kept popping out at me enough that it became the overriding quality that I focused on. I was busy having a burrito (big shock) with Tom B. while the Judas Priest experiment was going on. Sorry I missed that.

I thought the Matrix project was my revelation of the day. I've had this ongoing war with myself as to whether the Neo3 was worth working with and Scott nailed it down pretty well. The other neat-o project I really liked were the Thunderstiks. Might have to give those another listen-to in my house some day.

Maynard, find that magic again and put it back in the Zirons. Don't get me wrong, they sounded great but I didn't get that big grin from them like last year. The BASSLines were absolutely stunning in all regards. Judging by how much Dan changed things from Dayton I have to say it was a huge change for the better.

I'm going to take the opportunity to thank Paul K. for the 50 minutes of Q&A he gave me about TL design. It's good to know I was thinking of things in a more or less correct way. I had a lot of good thoughts going through my head on the drive home about getting my first TL project done now that my concerns were put to rest.

Marty's cute towers did some really nice work. Good job on nailing that down, Dirk and Marty. Wolf's MAX project turned out as good as I hoped it would. The tweeter seemed a bit tizzy but overall I liked it.

Thanks for the compliments on the Arpeggios, fellas. They worked better in the big room than they did in Dayton. Now it's time to get the money together to get their real enclosures closer to reality. They were in with some tough company in that class but ya know, I think they held their own well enough and didn't embarrass. Maybe I'll do another Usher fanboy specials but in a 3-way for next year.

It was a great time. The day seemed to move along rather swimmingly even with the glitch we had.

shawn

[Wolf]

My thoughts...
First- thanks to all attending, the hosting Peterson family, and the guys doing the gathering of items and support for Doug.
Also- thanks to those commenting on my speakers previously here and at the event. It's nice to know I'm not the only one that likes them....:cool::)

Now- I'm going to say first that I was further back than most of the other guys giving opinions, and the bass was a touch tubby for virtually everything presented. This could be attributed to the placement at the edges of the stage area, and the distance to my position. Anyway, most of the bass was the same to me in timbre, minus the differing extensions.

Midrange:
Curt's 'Maverick-A'. *Very smooth* bass, and extension all the waaaayyyyy doooowwwwwwnnnn. The B was a little boomy at my position, where the A was not.

Paul K's 'Marcatos'- Still an engagingly clean design.

Ed's 'Zapaton' needed some bass fine tuning, or moved back from the stage boundary. The MT was pleasant, but the bass just peaked all over everything in my spot.

Scott's "Matrix" were smooth, and taut in the bass, while I felt the mids needed a touch more in level. Sorry you competed with Curt....

Maynard's 'Ziran' I felt were a little reserved in the midrange, and I expected more. I think the tweeter is the weak link, just as Maynard suggested. Sound was nice.

Shawn's "Arpeggios" did something for me, as I felt in some areas, they even exceeded the "Marcatos". Nice job, buddy!

So, 123- Curt-A, Shawn's Arpeggios, and the Paul K. Marcatos.

I will comment that I missed the JP 104dB spot, but it is not surprising. Those are nice. Again, great job, Dan!

Budget:
I won't comment on my own except that they were well received.

I hope Robert reduces the bass a smidge. It was still decent, and much less parts than mine too!

Marty- You know I felt they were a little laid back.:p

The Cryolites are a little forward this time. I guess I prefer the 1st version of that xover. Nice job, Todd.

I felt the RM6K was a little 'artificial' sounding. Needs some adjustments.

Matt's experiments were decently tamed, but placing a resistor across the coil might lift the topend.

Tommy- You're getting there, but I couldn't even get a center image at my position. The bass seemed out of phase.

Rich (Turn2)- the Thunderstix I felt were lacking in the tweeter range. Lessen a series resistor a smidge and they will lock-in for certain.

All of these were decent, 123 (and I'm biased): Cryolite, Vijon, Coppers.

I think Rory won the superbudget class, but I can't get into the reasons why....

It was all-in-all a great event, and I hope to attend again! As it turns out, I have the Josh Groban piece Curt used, and it's just not the same on my equipment at home.... :(
Later,
Wolf

[nordhaven]

What was the fellas name that was doing the testing in the other room?
During lunch I took my speaker over there to be tested. It looked great and I would like to see the graph again for review. I know he saved it and took my email.

[Dirk]

What was the fellas name that was doing the testing in the other room?
During lunch I took my speaker over there to be tested. It looked great and I would like to see the graph again for review. I know he saved it and took my email.

That was Dennis Jarchow, or "djarchow" around these parts. I know he intends to distribute his measurings at some point.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

yes he said he will send early part of the week.

[tom_s]

Wolf...I have to come clean....for my own conscience...for the good of the competition...and because it's the honorable thing to do. The last thing I want to do is cause controversy at such an honorable and friendly event.

My build cost for drivers and crossover parts was 136.72. The Peerless HDS 832873 were a PE buyout and I used the single item price of 28.67 in my total. Just after the super budget class started, I found out that I should have used the retail price in my total build cost. At this point, I don't know what the retail price is/was. Madisound is out of stock, so no prices are listed. I am guessing they were in the $45 range. That puts me just shy of $170 and out of the Super Budget class. The written rules don't cover the retail price stipulation and I didn't know about it until 10 minutes before my entry was to be judged. If there had been actual prizes on the line, I would have disqualified myself immediately. Looking back, I probably should have anyway, but at that point I was actually quite nervous about how my entry would sound and not thinking with a level head.

I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone and hope I might still be welcome to participate next year.

Tom S

[tpremo55]

I too would like to thank all who attended and most of all Maynard and Doug for the work they did with the event and the music. This is a great event that I make sure is priority for me one weekend a year. Thanks to all who attended and drove many miles to get here as well as the many great designs that presented the possibilities of component and design to get the creative juices flowing for the rest of us.

There were many very impressive speakers this year and I won't pretend to have detailed notes on all of them. A few that stood out for me are detailed below.

In the budget category, I'd like to express the great joy that Curt found it necessary to add a tweeter to his transient perfect Mavericks which knocked him into the midrange class... :D This left things very tight in my opinion in the budget class between the Vijons (by Wolf), the Copper Project (by Marty) and the Cryolites (design by LouC) that I brought. It was truly a matter of preference. The Vijons were very nice up top with great imaging and a very well integrated two-way. As a small 2-way, the lacked some of the bass. The Copper Project was very impressive with an excellent balanced presentation including great bass out of that TangBand driver. I did like the bass of the copper project potentially even better than the Cryolites RS180 design although you will pay more for that TB than you will the RS. The Max by Wolf looked (sounded) to have a lot of potential. Maybe it was my location, but the bass didn't seem to match my expectations. The 'Ferrari'-inspired ports looked to be complex to tune and may have had an impact. They had good upper mid for a 8" driver however and sounded very nice. I also appreciated the Fountek 2-way design.

The unlimited saw little competition, but provided an excellent speaker. As usual with Dan, the Basslines had both visual and audio presentation that are hard to match. I was really impressed with the Lambda driver and really liked the bass quality. Beyond that, the upper end was very well integrated and the system delivered a very nice result.

Midrange was tight. They were all very nice designs that I would put against about anything available commercially for many times the upper limit of the class. Paul's Matrix was excellent and really showed off the Neo set (3" and 8") with some of the best mid and upper sound of the show. I felt that as good as the Rs150s are, they were the weak part of the speaker - but a larger driver would preclude the really cool thin tower design. An excellent speaker all around. Paul's Marcatos were a very nice design although I must say that I have enjoyed a few of the past designs a bit better. That's the problem with being a top notch designer Paul - you raise the bar on our expectations. Suffice it to say that you will never really go wrong with any of Paul's designs and he is obviously the SME for TL work in the group and always so willing to help the rest of us with guidance. Shawn's arpaggios (SP?) really sounded nice. He indicated that they were not a 'finished' design but the Usher drivers sounded like they had a lot of potential to me. I would consider them strong for a future design and would love to hear the speaker again. Maynards Zirons were a great sounding speaker where the drivers simply blended and provided a very nice balanced sound. It's unfortunate that the tweeters were damaged in transit. This brings me to the tale of two speakers. Curt's Mavericks were very interesting. While many discussions accounted of different preferences between the two, from my seat the "A" (transient perfect) design was head and shoulders above the other. The bass was much better integrated and the overall life of the music was unsurpassed in the event. In the LR4 version, I was actually listening to a different speaker with the life seemingly sucked out of it. It would be interesting to have swapped seats with someone who liked "B" and auditioned again. Great job guys and all listed are designs that most of us would only aspire to be capable of.

There were many very nice designs that are not mentioned. I think everyone should be proud of the designs presented on Saturday.

Thanks to Jim and Doug for the posted pics of the event. The one thing I would ask is that everyone review and comment on each identifying the builder and name for reference by all. Doug's pics are here (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii184/dougyp333/Iowa%20DIY%202009/) and Jim's are here (http://picasaweb.google.com/jholtz.us/2009IowaDIYEvent#).

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

is anyone else supprised that there were no tritrix or recession busters? i kinda wish i would have brought my rb ported. to see if they would hold there own. maynards veneered speakers looked just fantastic. they make me want to try.

[tpremo55]

is anyone else supprised that there were no tritrix or recession busters? i kinda wish i would have brought my rb ported. to see if they would hold there own. maynards veneered speakers looked just fantastic. they make me want to try.

We have had the Tritrix at the Iowa event in past years however I too was surprised that none showed up with the recent spike in interest with the kit being offered...

[Taterworks]

...I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone and hope I might still be welcome to participate next year.

Tom S

Don't worry about it, Tom - as far as I'm concerned, no harm was done. I sure didn't come to Iowa DIY to get political, and I didn't come to be competitive, either. I was there to get comments on my design, but all things considered, Iowa DIY seemed to me to be a lot less competitive than DIY Dayton. I sure didn't feel like I got burned or anything, and your HDS project sure put out some nice sound in that room, so if you end up being highest-rated in the budget class, as far as I'm concerned, you earned it.

-----------------------------
Show Notes Follow:

For a first DIY Iowa, I really had a great time, and I enjoyed the less formal atmosphere when compared to a highly-structured competition like Dayton. DIY Dayton had better prizes, but I feel like I learned more about my own project and others' at Iowa. The opportunity to hang out and talk audio with so many other forum members and see so many excellent projects was a great encouragement for me.

My best-sound-in-show award goes to Curt C's Maverick "A" (the quasi-transient-perfect bass/mid XO alignment...absolutely epic), with second going to Paul K's Marcato (my word for them would be 'lucid'), and third going to Dan's Basslines (which were second among the three in bass quality, and first in bass quantity, but didn't hold me spellbound the way Curt's and Paul's did. I think a tradeoff in midrange quality was made for some extra efficiency in using the pro-sound mid.) The Mavericks were even more impressive when considering that the tweeter was the inexpensive rear-mount Dayton ND20, and the Tang Band honeycomb flat-diaphragm mid was the talk of the show floor afterward. I'm curious to know what loading was used for the mid as well.

My "Most Interesting" pick was probably Wolf's Vijon, followed by Scott Selene's three-way towers using the B+G Neo3 and Neo8. The best word to describe Scott's towers was 'immediate', and driver integration was seamless from top to bottom. The only ding against Scott's towers was that they ran out of 'oomph' in the bass on bass-heavy tracks in the big room, causing audible distortion. If the design had incorporated four bass drivers instead of two, it might have been another story, but in most listening rooms I'm sure the two bass drivers quite adequate, and the bass depth was impressive for such small drivers. The Vijon delivered an extremely smooth and cohesive sound, but I felt too much was demanded from them in such a large room without a separate woofer module to pick up the low end, so I think they were actually a bit distressed-sounding. They held up well sonically under the duress, however. Third most interesting would have been Wolf's MAX 8" two-ways, though the tweeter did need some work - it lacked warmth.

As for my own project, I felt the Stones held up well to the stress of playing at the level of the previous contender, Matt's "Shenanigans" (his piezo horn could have sounded better with a few more components). Doug offered to lower the level, but I decided to take the risk, and the Stones didn't let me down as far as output was concerned. There were a couple passages where driver excursion got out of hand and the intermodulation distortion became noticeable, but aside from their very narrow sweet spot, I think they performed admirably, and I got some nice comments. I feel Dirk's design could have performed better if he hadn't plugged the vent, but with the vent plugged, the CSS WR125S widebanders were just outmatched by the room, despite their longer linear excursion than the Stones' Tang Band W4-1052, and bass distortion was the result.

So, that's my non-exhaustive wrap-up of Iowa DIY 2009. If Wolf goes to Iowa next year, I'll go, but I may hang around the InDIYana and Dayton DIY shows otherwise. Mark my words, though -- I will be back. (Muahahahah.) Special thanks to Wolf for driving the entire way, and thanks to the Wolfette for being so tolerant of her husband's hobby, and for the hospitality during my brief stay after arriving back in Indiana.

[Dirk]

I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone and hope I might still be welcome to participate next year.

Tom S

As a fellow competitor in the SB class, I don't find myself caring much one way or the other. After hearing Rory's Stones on Friday night I figured I was already licked. :D

I think that you need to atone by sharing your XO.

[S7910]

As a fellow competitor in the SB class, I don't find myself caring much one way or the other. After hearing Rory's Stones on Friday night I figured I was already licked. :D

I think that you need to atone by sharing your XO.

+1

I, too, shall return.

[Dirk]

I feel Dirk's design could have performed better if he hadn't plugged the vent, but with the vent plugged, the CSS WR125S widebanders were just outmatched by the room, despite their longer linear excursion than the Stones' Tang Band W4-1052, and bass distortion was the result.

My thoughts as well. However, the attempts at venting were an unmitigated failure. Combine the Qts of 1.0 and Fs of 95hz with the fact that I'm NOT Wolf and it just wasn't going to work for me. I tried everything, including various amounts of stuffing in the port. Cest la vie. I wanted to see what the driver could do. At home here I'll be using it with a sub, so if that's what lost me the day, I'm content.

Already planning for next year. Heh.

[critofur]

...I think that you need to atone by sharing your XO.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=213020

Oh - I just remembered a question I had... In the case of speakers which are designed not to be more than a couple feet away from the back wall, I wonder how they could be properly auditioned at an event like this?

I guess they could only be heard at smaller events like InDIYana, and Dayton - would have to get pre-approved to not place them on the tape marks on the floor that they had at Dayton, I guess?

[Pete Schumacher ®]

A buyout is a buyout, no need to apologize. You used the buyout price, and that's what anyone could have gotten it for. You done REAL GOOD! :D

[tom_s]

Guys, thanks for letting me clear my conscience. Like most people there, I wasn't really there to compete. I wanted feedback, to hear more about what I might need to work on, to hear what others had cooked up, and just get together with some of the other people around the area who have this same sickness! I really wish I would have heard Rory's Tombstones from my original seat. I was way off-axis when his were up and just not paying attention at the time. Truth be told, I was pretty worried what the Firebird track might do to my entry!

No problem posting the crossover-it's Jay's design and I just played with the voicing and box a bit. I'll put it in the appropriate thread.

Thanks,
Tom

[Taterworks]

Well, actually the 'Stones' are not the "Tombstones". These guys are the Tombstones: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57916.0

I do, however, think I like the name "Whetstones," so I'm officially changing the project name (which I can still do, since I haven't published it yet.) I think I'll still call them the 'Stones for short.

[DougP]

I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone and hope I might still be welcome to participate next year.

Tom S

Tom,
Not to worry. It was an honest oversight and I will note it in the results. I agree with idea that it's about talking to other builders and getting feedback about the speakers that you have worked on. I see the "competition" part of the event as a very minor part and not to be taken too seriously.
D.


is anyone else supprised that there were no tritrix or recession busters? i kinda wish i would have brought my rb ported. to see if they would hold there own. maynards veneered speakers looked just fantastic. they make me want to try.

As stated before the Tri-Trix have been to the Iowa event before. I would expect to see a RB show up next year.
D

[biff]

Seems there were some unreasonably good designs there :)

Could anyone comment on basic crossover topology on some of the better reviewed pieces? I understand Curt had a "quasi"? TP design (only on low/mid pass?), any Dueland style? Anything unique? anyone have active and reconfigured for the venue? Does anyone know why Shawn and Wolf ran out of the room after the mysterious call from commisioner Gordon?

[DougP]

Seems there were some unreasonably good designs there :)

Could anyone comment on basic crossover topology on some of the better reviewed pieces? I understand Curt had a "quasi"? TP design (only on low/mid pass?), any Dueland style? Anything unique? anyone have active and reconfigured for the venue? Does anyone know why Shawn and Wolf ran out of the room after the mysterious call from commisioner Gordon?

Biff,
I have a lot of that information for the designs and will be posting as much of it as is reasonable. I am going to start on it tonight and hope to have evetythng posted by the end of this weekend.
Doug

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Seems there were some unreasonably good designs there :)

Could anyone comment on basic crossover topology on some of the better reviewed pieces? I understand Curt had a "quasi"? TP design (only on low/mid pass?), any Dueland style? Anything unique? anyone have active and reconfigured for the venue? Does anyone know why Shawn and Wolf ran out of the room after the mysterious call from commisioner Gordon?

I was wondering why those two had a strange fondness for spandex tights.

[Paul K.]

All of my speakers are designed to work well in my space with their backs typically about 6" from the wall. At the 2008 PE DIY and 2008 Iowa DIY my canTiLenas took first place in their Classes. I couldn't make PE's event this year and would have taken the Marcatos, but I did take them to this Iowa event and I guess we'll have to wait for the voting results to see how they did in that big "room".
Paul


http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=213020

Oh - I just remembered a question I had... In the case of speakers which are designed not to be more than a couple feet away from the back wall, I wonder how they could be properly auditioned at an event like this?

I guess they could only be heard at smaller events like InDIYana, and Dayton - would have to get pre-approved to not place them on the tape marks on the floor that they had at Dayton, I guess?

[scottsehlin]

I really want to thank Doug P., along with Maynard and Todd for working to put together a great event. It was great to see both old and new faces - and as always this event is a great way to hear a wide variety of different drivers and design approaches in a format where they can be compared side-by-side.

I will echo the thoughts of many that the bar has been rising over the years. Even those designs that finish near the bottom of their categories don't do anything significantly wrong. We as designers are now chasing either doing everything very well or finding some magical synergy that creates a "wow" factor.

Some quick thoughts on the entries:

Budget Class:

Both Robert and Wolf's 8" two-ways were very solid. Robert's were a little boomy in that room, but that could have been a function of the stage/floor setup as much as the design. In any event, it's a great way to get full range capability for minimum complexity and cost. It is a big challenge to get a reasonably priced 8" woofer to integrate with a reasonably priced tweeter, and you both managed that well.

Marty's copper project was spot-on. That 5" Tang Band woofer did a great job in the small-floorstanding enclosure.

Wolf's Vijon was really a fun, lively speaker to listen to - it brings plenty of detail and life to the music - not to mention that the cabinet look and finish is a sight to behold.

I felt that the Cryolites that Todd brought in the floorstanding cabinet had the best overall combination of strengths; bass quality, overall resolution, and treble delicacy. Trying to cross the RS180 and Neo3PDR at 2kHz is clearly a tradeoff (which is what the budget category is all about) - but it is managed well enough that the overall payoff is worth it.

Super Budget:

Rory's "Stones" has some obvious limitations at the frequency extremes, but does midrange very well - which is really what you should be after if you are building a 4" single driver speaker. Nicely done.

Dirk's "Oh really" design was also competent, but didn't quite do midrange quite as well as the "Stones".

Tom's RMK6 design was excellent - I like others am not sure if it really belongs in the Budget or Super Budget category. It's a very good design and a great value regardless of where it falls. I don't think anything in the budget category would have significantly outclassed it. The Peerless HDS Nomex is a very nice midwoofer.

Unlimited:

Only one speaker here - Dan's "Basslines". This is an ambitious project. The high efficiency and SPL capability is certainly unique. I think the crossover is well wrung-out at this point. IMHO, the B&C mid is a bit of a limitation in this design - keeping it in the "hall of very good" relative to some other "uber" designs presented by Dan, Curt, Jim Salk, Jim Holtz, Paul K, and others in years past.

Midrange:

Wow, this category was really stacked full of excellent designs. I appreciated the constructive feedback on my design and will start a separate thread at some point to discuss it further.

Ed Froste's design was extremely ambitious - the Mark Audio mid and HiVi tweeter were new to me and the cabinet has to be seen to be believed. I don't think this design is complete yet (there are so many variables to consider, it would be a hard design to ever complete) - but I certainly commend Ed for developing a creative approach for controlling the rear wave of an open back mid.

Paul K's Marcatos were excellent. Integration of the Usher midwoofers and the Neo3PDR's was flawless and the drivers both provided high resolution, low distortion sound. I felt that the bass could have been stronger, but as Paul has mentioned he places them 6" from the back wall in his room. I'll bet the bass is very good in that case.

Maynard's Ziran design was also very well done. After listening to the Matrix and Marcatos, one could notice that the low-level resolution wasn't at the same level - but the Ziran was eminently smooth and easy to listen to. Like Shawn, I felt that the design didn't quite have the same magic that the Tzu-Jan conjured last year.

Shawn's Arpeggios... The cabinet design may not be complete, but I'll cast a vote for the crossover design being complete. This does about everything a 7" two-way can do (good resolution, integration, refinement, imaging). Great Job.

Finally, there is Curt's design. I preferred the "A" design. It may not have been the most clinically accurate, but that quasi-TP crossover really brought things alive and created the elusive "wow" moment of the show (at least for me). That Peerless 8" worked perfectly in the big auditorium, providing full extension and beautiful resolution without boom. The TB mid was also a revelation....

Thanks again to all of the organizers, attendees, and to those who brought speakers.

[ncpilot]

First post on this forum, but I go way back in speaker building... to building Rogers LS3/5a clones and the early days of Speaker Builder Magazine...

I was just about set to build the Mini Statements + CC for home theater, but also waiting for this DIY...

In the opinion of the attendees, are some of the high performers a better choice than the Mini Statements? (I haven't found exact pricing yet for the mid-range category)

Considering the detailed build docs on Curt's site for the Mini's, and his praised Maverick (HDS-TB-Dayton)--maybe he could comment? (same Curt I think?)

Crap, I was happy with my last build (Madisound DIY 2001?), until I got a 73" tv that dwarfs my speakers! :D

http://home.earthlink.net/~marcpilot7/tv/New%20tv1.JPG

[Wolf]

I was wondering why those two had a strange fondness for spandex tights.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:
????
Wolf

[biff]

:confused::confused::confused::confused:
????
Wolf

Your lack of elocution seems out of character, Boy Wonder --- Catwoman got your tongue? heheh

[curt_c]

Seems there were some unreasonably good designs there :)

Could anyone comment on basic crossover topology on some of the better reviewed pieces? I understand Curt had a "quasi"? TP design (only on low/mid pass?),
The Maverick could really be considered a 2 way with a helper tweeter, as the ND 16 did not cross in until 10K. The QTP version the woofer/mid fc is around 650 Hz with initially first order slopes but reverting to 2nd order further away from fc. The transfer function overlap is nearly 1 octave either side of fc. The baffle was sloped and the drivers positioned to align the acoustic centers on the design axis, and of course the drivers were in phase quadrature. The mid/tweeter transfer functions are much higher order, approximately 4th/5th, and the high fc was chosen to minimize their effects on the system phase and power response at lower frequencies where the ear is more sensitive to them. The midrange was sealed, while the woofer was supported by a classic transmission line with a 10:1 taper. I'll put up more information on my site when time permits.



First post on this forum, but I go way back in speaker building... to building Rogers LS3/5a clones and the early days of Speaker Builder Magazine...

I was just about set to build the Mini Statements + CC for home theater, but also waiting for this DIY...

In the opinion of the attendees, are some of the high performers a better choice than the Mini Statements? (I haven't found exact pricing yet for the mid-range category)

Considering the detailed build docs on Curt's site for the Mini's, and his praised Maverick (HDS-TB-Dayton)--maybe he could comment? (same Curt I think?)
Honestly, you could build any of the designs shown Saturday and have an excellent system, in my opinion. The differences in SQ of the designs appeared to be more ones of driver limitations than design execution.
I’ll leave it to others to debate the relative merits of the various designs I’ve had a hand in, but I will point out that the Mini’s have a matching CC while at this juncture the Mavericks do not.
-On the other hand, a pair of Mavericks will currently run about $425.00 in QTP trim. Significantly lower than the Mini's...

C

[nordhaven]

Shawn's Arpeggios were my favorite of the day. The top end was very nice. The usher tweeter gave lots of detail and transitioned great with the woofer.
It brought the music to life and delivered it with real world dynamics and feel.

A lot of designs did nothing "technically" wrong but often failed to deliver any emotion. Perfectly boring or politely neutral is not what reproducing sound is about to me? It's the brushes on a snare drum and fret buzz and all the little hidden nuances of a recording brought out by a revealing speaker that make old music new again. It's reproducing the real world experience of sound and all it's dynamics and imperfections that moves people, not simulated technical perfection. Good job Shawn!

[DougP]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I am working on the results. I will let you know as soon as they are posted.
Doug

[maynardg]

I would pretty much ditto Dan's observation that this was the most enjoyable DIY Iowa yet. And Scott's observations on the event generally.. I was there at the original, whenever that was in the dark mists of the past, and each year since. Don't plan on missing any.

I would love to have had a few hours with the Mavericks. Wow.


Maynard's Ziran design was also very well done. After listening to the Matrix and Marcatos, one could notice that the low-level resolution wasn't at the same level - but the Ziran was eminently smooth and easy to listen to. Like Shawn, I felt that the design didn't quite have the same magic that the Tzu-Jan conjured last year.

Dan also noted my lament that I had overworked the Zirans. The component count on my final XO rivals the national debt. KISS.

Time for some abracadabra.

I've concluded that no amount of torture is going to make the DQ25 more than a good $13 tweeter. Several tweeters can outperform it for a few dollars more.

So, out with the DQ25's, in with XT25SC90's. They fit the cutout! and should suit my taste for fabric tweeters a bit better...... XO parts count is about half..... I may have my DIY 2010 done by Sunday.

Where is the sign up list Doug?

[martyh]

Maynard,

You're going to love that tweeter!

Marty

[DougP]

I would pretty much ditto Dan's observation that this was the most enjoyable DIY Iowa yet. And Scott's observations on the event generally.. I was there at the original, whenever that was in the dark mists of the past, and each year since. Don't plan on missing any.

I would love to have had a few hours with the Mavericks. Wow.



Dan also noted my lament that I had overworked the Zirans. The component count on my final XO rivals the national debt. KISS.

Time for some abracadabra.

I've concluded that no amount of torture is going to make the DQ25 more than a good $13 tweeter. Several tweeters can outperform it for a few dollars more.

So, out with the DQ25's, in with XT25SC90's. They fit the cutout! and should suit my taste for fabric tweeters a bit better...... XO parts count is about half..... I may have my DIY 2010 done by Sunday.

Where is the sign up list Doug?

No sign up sheet yet but you can mark your calendar for October 16th. I reserved the room yesterday.:cool:
Doug

[Jim Holtz]

Awesome! :D

I truly appreciate your hard work in making this event come together.

Jim

[maynardg]

No sign up sheet yet but you can mark your calendar for October 16th. I reserved the room yesterday.:cool:
Doug

I'm there!

[tpremo55]

No sign up sheet yet but you can mark your calendar for October 16th. I reserved the room yesterday.:cool:
Doug

On my calendar. Please let me know how I can help this year. I'd be happy to create the music CD if you would like. ...or whatever. Compared to most, I'm local.

Thanks!!

[Paul K.]

Me, too.
Paul


I'm there!

[Casshern]

I will be there too!

It'll probably be my first speaker design/project, so just don't be too harsh on me. :)

[djarchow]

That was Dennis Jarchow, or "djarchow" around these parts. I know he intends to distribute his measurings at some point.

I do plan on sending out the measurements. I haven't had time to get them out this week and I am at a conference through Friday. I will try to get them sent out sometime this weekend. Again, I apologize for the delay.

Thanks

Dennis

[jeffa]

I just spent about an hour and a half reading this thread and looking at all the pictures that everyone has posted/linked. All I can say is WOW! Everyone's entries look amazing, and I am sure they all sounded even better. I would love to attend one of these events just to be there and look at the outstanding craftmanship and designs. It would be nice to learn from the pros as there is no way I could put together anything of that quality right now.

Thanks to all of you who posted pictures. I will stay tuned for more. Looked like alot of fun for sure.

I haven't been to an event yet but I love to look at the pictures. It is kind of a double edge sword though. It is great to see what I can aspire to build but depressing because... well I have to aspire to build them.

[S7910]

No sign up sheet yet but you can mark your calendar for October 16th. I reserved the room yesterday.:cool:
Doug

I plan on bringing an entry next year as well!

Matt

[gowa]

Is that it for pics?

[DougP]

Is that it for pics?

There are three links to pictures that where taken at the event on the 2009 event home page. They pretty much cover all the action.
Doug


http://home.mchsi.com/~iowadiy2009/index.htm

[gowa]

Thanks Doug.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

There are three links to pictures that where taken at the event on the 2009 event home page. They pretty much cover all the action.
Doug


http://home.mchsi.com/~iowadiy2009/index.htm


I'm there!!!

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/picture.php?albumid=230&pictureid=1857

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

I will be there too!

It'll probably be my first speaker design/project, so just don't be too harsh on me. :)

this was my first, and my first. my entry had a little x-over priblem and all i got was suggestions for troubleshooting and a offer to measure them there! great group of guys.

start building.:D

[tom_s]

Arlis, Did you find out what was causing the response difference between the 2 speakers?

[critofur]

...I would love to have had a few hours with the Mavericks. Wow.
Could somebody post a link to the Mavericks, a build thread, or such?
EDIT: Ah, here it is: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=210338&highlight=Maverick


Dan also noted my lament that I had overworked the Zirans. The component count on my final XO rivals the national debt. KISS.
Sometimes, when a speaker MEASURES well, but, just doesn't sound very pleasing, I wonder - do complex crossovers "do" something bad to the music rendering it lifeless and in some indescribable way unnatural, yet still look good on a FR + distortion graph? Or is that just another audiophile myth...


Time for some abracadabra.

I've concluded that no amount of torture is going to make the DQ25 more than a good $13 tweeter. Several tweeters can outperform it for a few dollars more.
Maynard,
Would you mind starting a thread on your opinions about the Vifa DQ25?



So, out with the DQ25's, in with XT25SC90's. They fit the cutout! and should suit my taste for fabric tweeters a bit better...... XO parts count is about half.....

That tweeter (XT) looks like it could be a real value, if it can cross low - there aren't many choices for small faceplate tweeters that can cross @ 2Khz or lower. It would SEEM to me that it should be able to handle a lower crossover than the DQ25, since it has a chamber and a larger surround... But I haven't tried it...

On another topic - I wonder how typical it is that DIYers won't use tweeters as low as they could go and sound good, but "listen" too much with their eyes when they look at distortion test? I'm not sure about that, just something I'm curious of.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

Arlis, Did you find out what was causing the response difference between the 2 speakers?

no, not yet. i bought a ohm meter yesterday. maybe i'll open them up soon.
with the onkyo i just adjusted the volume to get both the same and reversed the polarity and they really sound good. wish we would have thought to just reverse the polarity at grinell:( these really do image well.

[maynardg]

Sometimes, when a speaker MEASURES well, but, just doesn't sound very pleasing, I wonder - do complex crossovers "do" something bad to the music rendering it lifeless and in some indescribable way unnatural, yet still look good on a FR + distortion graph? Or is that just another audiophile myth...

A definite maybe. I'm not sure of all the parameters that would have to be matched to do a direct comparison. Like Curt's version A & B. Of course they are different, they are not the same.

Side by side, comparing point by point with the Tzu-Jan, the Ziran is better in most ways. Certainly a better day-to-day, multi-purpose speaker. Obviously the Ziran has better bass extension and quality, way better dynamics, end to end balance. The Ziran can play any kind of music, good or bad quality, loud, without hurting the ears. The only area where it is not quite as nice is the midrange. The W5-1685 is just not as nice as the MDM55 and the AC130 covered its part very well. I also prefer the D25NC55 to the DQ25, but the difference is partly a subjective preference for the "sound" fabric domes. But I have a choice, and the Zirans stay in the system.

So, what about the Tzu-Jan "magic". I think it comes from two things. The midrange is probably the best overall that I've heard anywhere. Really. That forms the foundation of the magic. But more important is that the Tzu-Jan does way more than you expect from a little speaker with a 7"x8" footprint and a 5 1/4' woofer. People say "I can't believe I'm hearing that!". That sort of magic is not reproduced in a shorter, rounder, J. Lo sort of package. Expectations are not exceeded in a wow sort of way.


Maynard,
Would you mind starting a thread on your opinions about the Vifa DQ25?

Good tweeter, small faceplate, only $13. Great for the price. Subjectively lots of detail. But after a time, you realize the detail is on the attack, and the decay seems unnaturally attenuated. You hear the bell strike, but not the bell.


That tweeter (XT) looks like it could be a real value, if it can cross low - there aren't many choices for small faceplate tweeters that can cross @ 2Khz or lower. It would SEEM to me that it should be able to handle a lower crossover than the DQ25, since it has a chamber and a larger surround... But I haven't tried it....

Well, Zaph recommends LR2 at 2500 or LR4 at 2000, if I recall correctly. The Zirans are getting LR2 @3000 as a starting point. I think I'll prefer that to the DQ25 from what I've heard from the XT25SC50/90.

[dlneubec]

That was suggested a couple times, but it got lost in the scurry to try and find the problem and ruling out the source equipment.

[brianwalter]

Maynard, I thought your Ziran sounded very smooth and non-fatiguing, but did lack a little life. Without measuring them I thought it sounded like maybe there was a little BBC dip. If so and if the BBC dip could be removed it might breathe a little more life into them, but possibly at the expense of being a little less non-fatiguing.

As far as the TB W5-1685 not being as good as the MDM-55, you might be right. Even though I really liked the Coppers, that also used the W5, I thought it too sounded a little laid back for my taste, so it may well be that the W5 lacks some of the detail that you get with some of the other mid ranges.

Brian

[Dirk]

Even though I really liked the Coppers, that also used the W5, I thought it too sounded a little laid back for my taste, so it may well be that the W5 lacks some of the detail that you get with some of the other mid ranges.


The midrange of the Coppers is laid back. However, I think it may have been a case of a little too much BSC on my part and not necessarily indicative of ultimate capability.

[maynardg]

Maynard, I thought your Ziran sounded very smooth and non-fatiguing, but did lack a little life. Without measuring them I thought it sounded like maybe there was a little BBC dip. If so and if the BBC dip could be removed it might breathe a little more life into them, but possibly at the expense of being a little less non-fatiguing.

As far as the TB W5-1685 not being as good as the MDM-55, you might be right. Even though I really liked the Coppers, that also used the W5, I thought it too sounded a little laid back for my taste, so it may well be that the W5 lacks some of the detail that you get with some of the other mid ranges.

Brian

There is a bit of a dip, about 1db on average, from 1000 to 4000. However, I think your observation about detail is probably the bigger issue.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

There is a bit of a dip, about 1db on average, from 1000 to 4000. However, I think your observation about detail is probably the bigger issue.

For your next project Maynard, how about just adding a bass module for the Tzu Juans (hope I spelled that right). Seems like the only thing they're missing at all is the extended low end. And if you remove those duties from the AC woofer, it would probably open up even more.

[maynardg]

For your next project Maynard, how about just adding a bass module for the Tzu Juans (hope I spelled that right). Seems like the only thing they're missing at all is the extended low end. And if you remove those duties from the AC woofer, it would probably open up even more.

:) you are a mind reader ..... sort of a Tzu-Jan-Ziran. I have the top module built. Any thoughts on the XO?

[Ron_E]

No sign up sheet yet but you can mark your calendar for October 16th. I reserved the room yesterday.:cool:
Doug

Sign me up.

This is my first post here. I've been hanging out at the old "Bass List" for a long time but it's pretty quiet over there after a couple of moves. I'm the old guy with the cherry veneered MTMs that we didn't get around to listening to. I'll try to have more courage next year.

It was a great event. I was impressed by the quality of sound and amazed at what some of the smaller systems could do. I got to hear several systems using the BG Neo3 tweeter which I'd already purchased for a surround system but haven't got together yet. I really liked the Matrix system. I got to hear a nice selection of new music and have ordered a couple of CDs.

I have a couple of questions. What SPL at what distance were the systems set to with the noise track? Are active systems welcome?

Finally, thanks Doug and all the others that helped put this together.

Ron E

[DougP]

Sign me up.

This is my first post here. I've been hanging out at the old "Bass List" for a long time but it's pretty quiet over there after a couple of moves. I'm the old guy with the cherry veneered MTMs that we didn't get around to listening to. I'll try to have more courage next year.

It was a great event. I was impressed by the quality of sound and amazed at what some of the smaller systems could do. I got to hear several systems using the BG Neo3 tweeter which I'd already purchased for a surround system but haven't got together yet. I really liked the Matrix system. I got to hear a nice selection of new music and have ordered a couple of CDs.

I have a couple of questions. What SPL at what distance were the systems set to with the noise track? Are active systems welcome?

Finally, thanks Doug and all the others that helped put this together.

Ron E

Ron,

If you are using the Iowa test CD the Pink noise was measured at 100db on the tweeter axis at about 6 inches. As a general run active systems take to long to set up for the event. However if they can be set up during a break or lunch then we can try and run them. It just depends.
Doug

[JonS]

Hey everyone, Scott's "little" brother here. I wanted to stop by and thank everyone that worked to put on the event, it was a great time and a great chance to get to hear others hard work. I've had a chance to install soundeasy and play with it a little bit and I definitely have ALOT of reading and experimenting to do.

I finally got around to doing all the post processing and got all the photos i took posted onto the web. So if anyone is interested in some more pics of the same speakers feel free to have a look.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JonSehlin/IowaDIY2009#

Jon

[Wolf]

Hey everyone, Scott's "little" brother here. I wanted to stop by and thank everyone that worked to put on the event, it was a great time and a great chance to get to hear others hard work. I've had a chance to install soundeasy and play with it a little bit and I definitely have ALOT of reading and experimenting to do.

I finally got around to doing all the post processing and got all the photos i took posted onto the web. So if anyone is interested in some more pics of the same speakers feel free to have a look.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JonSehlin/IowaDIY2009#

Jon

It was nice chatting with you and your little... I mean 'older' brother. :D
Hope to see you 2 again,
Wolf

[shawn_a]

Hey everyone, Scott's "little" brother here. I wanted to stop by and thank everyone that worked to put on the event, it was a great time and a great chance to get to hear others hard work. I've had a chance to install soundeasy and play with it a little bit and I definitely have ALOT of reading and experimenting to do.

I finally got around to doing all the post processing and got all the photos i took posted onto the web. So if anyone is interested in some more pics of the same speakers feel free to have a look.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JonSehlin/IowaDIY2009#

Jon

Still owe ya a slap in the face with a pizza box :D. It was great meeting ya though, Jon. Glad you made the trip and I hope to see everyone again next year.

shawn

[martyh]

Hi All,

For starts I want to thank all of the Iowa 2009 attendee's for their constructive criticism to my Copper Project. Much has been made of the Tang Band W5-1685's performance in that project - it did turn a few heads! Combined with the Vifa XT25SC90, they make a pretty nice team.

A couple of you mentioned that the midrange seemed a little laid back and I agree with that. Dirk mentioned that we may have engineered a little too much BSC - no argument, but how to deal with that? Two ways, and it only made sense to pursue the less aggressive route first. Now it might have been logical to head back to the PCD and rework the low pass filter, but it seemed easier to modify the box stuffing and hear what we would hear. One aspirin vs the whole bottle, as it were.

I removed about 1 oz. total of AcoustaStuff equally from either side of the interior divider and they ended up being just a little shouty (well maybe more than a little). So I rebalanced the stuffing along both sides of the internal baffle, added back about half of what I removed and got exactly what I wanted. Maybe I had the balance wrong in the first place...don't really know. (Sidebar: Paul, we have about 7.5 oz per cabinet, now).

The Coppers are now smoother across the lower frequencies (<150 hz) which also helped opened up the midrange, so now David Crosby and Donald Fagen don't sound like they're enduring their 48-year colds anymore! Heck, even Amy Winehouse sounds a little less strung out.

Anyway, I just wanted you all to know that the modification is complete and so is the project. Not being boastful, but it's about the best $220 you'll spend on a project. Thanks for the input guys!

[gowa]

Nice pictures of the work this year. Just an amazing collection of designs all around.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

marty, boast away. you mention the bsc. is this reasonable considering they were 3meters or more from the back curtain at iowa? what conditions, room, placement ect, did you have when you ajusted the stuffing?

[Dirk]

Anyway, I just wanted you all to know that the modification is complete and so is the project. Not being boastful, but it's about the best $220 you'll spend on a project. Thanks for the input guys!

I like the fact that they're totally non-fatiguing. I'm pretty sure you could listen to them at paint-peeling levels for hours without getting tired of them.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I like the fact that they're totally non-fatiguing. I'm pretty sure you could listen to them at paint-peeling levels for hours without getting tired of them.

I doubt you can get any 5" based system to get to paint peeling levels, especially one with, at best, a mid 80s sensitivity level.

Add a sub and high pass the system at 80Hz and you might move toward that goal . . .

;)

[Paul K.]

You've reduced the stuffing density 10% or so and that's fine. In a 3-way where the woofer doesn't cover much if any beyond the bass range and is the only driver loaded by the TL, there would not likely be a situation like this. But in a 2-way with the midwoofer in its TL covering bass and midrange, changing the stuffing density will definitely impact how the midrange sounds since the stuffing affects higher frequencies much more than lower frequencies. Nothing at all wrong with making adjustments like this to suit you and make the sound better.
Paul


Hi All,

For starts I want to thank all of the Iowa 2009 attendee's for their constructive criticism to my Copper Project. Much has been made of the Tang Band W5-1685's performance in that project - it did turn a few heads! Combined with the Vifa XT25SC90, they make a pretty nice team.

A couple of you mentioned that the midrange seemed a little laid back and I agree with that. Dirk mentioned that we may have engineered a little too much BSC - no argument, but how to deal with that? Two ways, and it only made sense to pursue the less aggressive route first. Now it might have been logical to head back to the PCD and rework the low pass filter, but it seemed easier to modify the box stuffing and hear what we would hear. One aspirin vs the whole bottle, as it were.

I removed about 1 oz. total of AcoustaStuff equally from either side of the interior divider and they ended up being just a little shouty (well maybe more than a little). So I rebalanced the stuffing along both sides of the internal baffle, added back about half of what I removed and got exactly what I wanted. Maybe I had the balance wrong in the first place...don't really know. (Sidebar: Paul, we have about 7.5 oz per cabinet, now).

The Coppers are now smoother across the lower frequencies (<150 hz) which also helped opened up the midrange, so now David Crosby and Donald Fagen don't sound like they're enduring their 48-year colds anymore! Heck, even Amy Winehouse sounds a little less strung out.

Anyway, I just wanted you all to know that the modification is complete and so is the project. Not being boastful, but it's about the best $220 you'll spend on a project. Thanks for the input guys!

[Dirk]

I doubt you can get any 5" based system to get to paint peeling levels, especially one with, at best, a mid 80s sensitivity level.


Sit closer. ;)

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Sit closer. ;)

Headphones? :D

[martyh]

marty, boast away. you mention the bsc. is this reasonable considering they were 3meters or more from the back curtain at iowa? what conditions, room, placement ect, did you have when you ajusted the stuffing?

They went through about 4 weeks of auditioning in my home - both medium and small sized rooms - as well as their 10 Minutes of Fame in Iowa. In all three venues they were a little big bass-wise and muted in the mids, hence the tweaking. Got'em where I want them now. They happily reside in my bedroom for the duration (a smallish room with way too much overstuffed stuff).

As for the rest of the comedians on this thread...chuckle on boys!