Pro Sound LoudSpeaker DIY Plans

[soundquest]

Looking for PHENOMENAL DIY Pro Sound plans. I see the blue wonders here on PE projects page but some of the drivers in that project are discontinued.
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Blue

Anyone know if PE has suitable replacements for those discontinued drivers?
299-440 Hammer 8SLF 8" driver - DISCONTINUED ITEM
2
299-444 Hammer 18CLF 18" speaker - DISCONTINUED ITEM
2

Anyone in here ever build the Blue Wonders? What did you think of them? Thanks.

[Paul O]

What is your intended use for these?

Other drives can be substituted into the Blue Wonders with some minor crossover adjustments, but while these would make a good general use PA box thier size compromizes thier effectiveness in some applications. Hence the question above.

[wg_ski]

Anyone in here ever build the Blue Wonders? What did you think of them? Thanks.

Not those in particular, but plenty of that style speaker 20 years ago. Back when I was on a real restrictive budget and when just one CS800 cost (and weighed) what two EP4000 and a DCX2496 together cost (and weighed) now. If you're just wanting some hi-fi-ish backyard party speakers you can hook up to the stereo with minimum setup they may be worthwhile. But for a basic PA you buy two amps, a crossover, and build a sub/satellite and still come out ahead on price and performance. That was not the case 20 years ago, but it sure is now.

[Phil_RC_1]

Looking for PHENOMENAL DIY Pro Sound plans.

Anyone in here ever build the Blue Wonders? What did you think of them? Thanks.

Check these (http://www.mfk-projects.com/dipole_pa_system.htm) out. I have not heard either but my instincts say the dipole design would kick ****. Of course by-amping would add to the expense.

Also check out Bills site (http://www.billfitzmaurice.net/).

[soundquest]

Check these (http://www.mfk-projects.com/dipole_pa_system.htm) out. I have not heard either but my instincts say the dipole design would kick ****. Of course by-amping would add to the expense.

Also check out Bills site (http://www.billfitzmaurice.net/).

these look really nice actually. Bi amping would start to get expensive.

[soundquest]

Not those in particular, but plenty of that style speaker 20 years ago. Back when I was on a real restrictive budget and when just one CS800 cost (and weighed) what two EP4000 and a DCX2496 together cost (and weighed) now. If you're just wanting some hi-fi-ish backyard party speakers you can hook up to the stereo with minimum setup they may be worthwhile. But for a basic PA you buy two amps, a crossover, and build a sub/satellite and still come out ahead on price and performance. That was not the case 20 years ago, but it sure is now.

This is really good feedback, I was not aware that a sub/sat setup was popular and even recommended in the PA world. Makes complete sense. What are the most popular (in the DIY world that is) bang for buck amplifiers and electronic crossover?

[soundquest]

What is your intended use for these?

Other drives can be substituted into the Blue Wonders with some minor crossover adjustments, but while these would make a good general use PA box thier size compromizes thier effectiveness in some applications. Hence the question above.

Intended use is for a DJ (my brother) whose business is burgeoning right now. Medium to large rooms/halls. I don't think the Blue Wonders will make the cut.

[Scott L]

Check these (http://www.mfk-projects.com/dipole_pa_system.htm) out. I have not heard either but my instincts say the dipole design would kick ****. Of course by-amping would add to the expense.

Also check out Bills site (http://www.billfitzmaurice.net/).

Well, Howdie there.... my same state buddy ! Thanks for the info link, it's some of the best reading for me, in a very long time.

[billfitzmaurice]

Check these (http://www.mfk-projects.com/dipole_pa_system.htm) out. I have not heard either but my instincts say the dipole design would kick ****. A dipole is the last design I'd use for pro-sound. Minimal sensitivity, zero directivity and poor low frequency extension is the polar opposite of what's required. That kind of explains why no manufacturer makes them.

[soundquest]

Excellent point. I need high spl/ low distortion. Other things I need high:
accuracy
dispersion
level of imaging.

Other things I need low:
beaming
the lower octave frequency band, I want these to reach a true 20hz effortlessly and sustainably
total cost, relatively that is

I would appreciate any links or suggestions for posted plans on the net. Has anyone in here undertaken a PA DIY sub/sat setup?

[wg_ski]

the lower octave frequency band, I want these to reach a true 20hz effortlessly and sustainably
total cost, relatively that is

I would appreciate any links or suggestions for posted plans on the net. Has anyone in here undertaken a PA DIY sub/sat setup?

Careful what you ask for. 8 lab horns - total cost $5000, total weight OVER ONE TON. Not to mention 200+ hours labor. Only 26 Hz (not 20), but does produce BUH-HASS "effortlessly and sustainably". You can get by with a fraction of that for most gigs, but it won't be any 20 Hz.

I end up using a pair of 2x18's with Omega pro's in them with either a pair of 2x10" tops (Delta 10 with Selenium 1") or a 15" 3-way on top most of the time. For any gig where that doesn't cut it, I get the horn subs, horn loaded mains, and friends from the local wrecker yard to move it all.

[soundquest]

Careful what you ask for. 8 lab horns - total cost $5000, total weight OVER ONE TON. Not to mention 200+ hours labor. Only 26 Hz (not 20), but does produce BUH-HASS "effortlessly and sustainably". You can get by with a fraction of that for most gigs, but it won't be any 20 Hz.

I end up using a pair of 2x18's with Omega pro's in them with either a pair of 2x10" tops (Delta 10 with Selenium 1") or a 15" 3-way on top most of the time. For any gig where that doesn't cut it, I get the horn subs, horn loaded mains, and friends from the local wrecker yard to move it all.

INSANITY. My brother is not in the market for 5K worth in horns alone, nor is he Sampson from the Old Testament to haul them around. The latter description is probably more on point - dual 10's and 1" for sat duty per side and 2x 18" subs to augment the lower freqs. For those that want the full 20 hz, they can just stick their ear up to the port during test tones. After that, they won't be able to tell the difference :)

Any ideas for good amps and good electronic X-over at a reasonable price?

[wg_ski]

The 'small' setup uses two RMX2450 and a CX3400. The amps are about the same as the Behringer EP4000 which are $350 each new. The x/o is soon to be replaced with a DCX2496 so the 3400 and the EQ can go back into my FX rack permanently (I hate swapping gear out). If you can swing the digital x/o, they are well worth it - I have the dbx DR260 in the big system. Saves the cost of an EQ and three compressors - or frees them up to use elsewhere if you already have them.

[soundquest]

This looks like a steal:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/msg/1570547077.html

What do you think?

[Music is life]

Excellent point. I need high spl/ low distortion. Other things I need high:
accuracy
dispersion
level of imaging.

Other things I need low:
beaming
the lower octave frequency band, I want these to reach a true 20hz effortlessly and sustainably
total cost, relatively that is

I would appreciate any links or suggestions for posted plans on the net. Has anyone in here undertaken a PA DIY sub/sat setup?

I'm not an expert of PA.
But I do read a lot and experiment a lot :)

I cannot imagine the need for below 30Hz in PA use. 35Hz is actually very good!
Recommendation for subs:
go with 12 cu ft dual 3015Lfs for flat to 40Hz..
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/cab-kappalite-3015lf.pdf

...or Bill's horns using the same driver which will bring you down a little lower.

There are other options for subs but those imo are some of the simplest and the least expensive options.
The only way to get below 30Hz in PA is with horns. Those horns would be large and numerous to have enough mouth area to support that frequency.
Not worth the effort imo.

JMO

[soundquest]

I'm not an expert of PA.
But I do read a lot and experiment a lot :)

I cannot imagine the need for below 30Hz in PA use. 35Hz is actually very good!
Recommendation for subs:
go with 12 cu ft dual 3015Lfs for flat to 40Hz..
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/cab-kappalite-3015lf.pdf

...or Bill's horns using the same driver which will bring you down a little lower.

There are other options for subs but those imo are some of the simplest and the least expensive options.
The only way to get below 30Hz in PA is with horns. Those horns would be large and numerous to have enough mouth area to support that frequency.
Not worth the effort imo.

JMO

Appreciate the suggestion. Thanks.

Can anyone comment on how Eminence stacks up against JBL's top of the line PA drivers? JBL is tremendously overpriced in my opinion.

[soundquest]

Okay, we have narrowed it down and slightly changed the game plan here.

He owns a pair of of JBL MR825 PA speakers, one has a blown tweeter.

They are 8 ohms each http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/MR_Series.pdf

I will replace both tweeter with Eminence 1 ohm titanium tweeters (unless someone suggests using the phenolic version)

We will eventually replace the 15" drivers and bypass the passive crossovers with and electronic one, adding two 18" sub woofers in separate cabinets.

Input appreciated. Anyone familiar with the sound of the MR825? What do you think?

This tweeter looks like a pretty darn good candidate:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-270&ctab=2#Tabs

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-270s.pdf

And this 15" looks like it will compliment very nicely:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-422

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-422s.pdf

Both options are more dynamic than the original and can handle more power. Should be a HUGE upgrade.

[Paul O]

Yes JBL drives are overpriced, I think that's a deliberate action to prevent them from showing up in all sorts of cheap offshore and DIY boxes and potentially soiling their reputation.

That Selenium driver is very good but using it means you will also have to replace or rebuild the internal crossover because it's designed around 4-ohm drivers. I'd also suggest the LF version of the Kappa unless these boxes will alway be used with subs.

[soundquest]

Yes JBL drives are overpriced, I think that's a deliberate action to prevent them from showing up in all sorts of cheap offshore and DIY boxes and potentially soiling their reputation.

That Selenium driver is very good but using it means you will also have to replace or rebuild the internal crossover because it's designed around 4-ohm drivers. I'd also suggest the LF version of the Kappa unless these boxes will alway be used with subs.

This is an 8 ohm speaker calling for one 8 ohm driver for tweet duty, and one 8ohm driver for woofer duty. The 2416H and the 2032H respectively. And the nice thing is, JBL put a tweet toggle pad to increase/decrease db as needed by 2db increments. I reference this information, care of
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/jblpro_alpha.pdf which states:

TRANSDUCER SUFFIXES:
F = 2 ohm nominal voice coil impedance
G = 4 ohm nominal voice coil impedance
H = 8 ohm nominal voice coil impedance
J = 16 ohm nominal voice coil impedance

Now I interpret this to mean that any of their drivers ending in an "H" will measure 8 ohms of resistance. The confusion regarding the impedance of these drivers may come from this document
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/MR800%20Series/MR825.pdf

wherein JBL is indicating with illustrations and diagrams, that the tweeter is 3.2 ohms, and the woofer is 4.25 ohms. But all the confusion is dispelled when you realize they are referring to the DCR (direct current resistance) which is a completely different measurement from nominal resistance. Hopefully, that helps to distill the mists of convolution surrounding the impedance of these drivers. Something tells me this information will help someone do the same thing someday.

Now for the tweeter, we are pretty dead set on the D220Ti (8 ohms)

but for the woofer, we are aiming for the woofer that will perform the best in the voicing and accuracy category as opposed to LFE, as we will be adding subs to this setup later more than likely. However, having said that, if the Eminence Kappa Pro-15LF-2 15" will voice just as well as the Eminence Kappa Pro-15A 15", then we will most definitely want the LF version because it has more low end extension. I AM REALLY LOOKING FOR SOMEONE THAT HAS SOME INSIGHT INTO THIS COMPARISON FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Voicing and vocal quality and accuracy are by an order of magnitude much more important to me in this particular instance than the lower frequencies because we can always add a sub later if we need to.

The other big question I had (solved now) was regarding the horn threading compatibility of the JBL Horn with the D220Ti. WILL IT WORK? Yes it will, this site (http://www.jamminjersey.com/speakers.php?prod=jblcomp) clearly states that it is 1 3/8" thread on throat.

I am expecting this upgrade to be substantial. And in the end, if the stock JBL crossover does not mate these two replacement drivers the way we want it to, we will swap it out for the Selenium 2V2K/350 2-Way Passive Crossover (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-254)


Looking forward to more input on this guys. Thanks.

Oh, btw, sensitivity ratings are as follows:
woofer: 97db... as it turns out, so does the Eminence Kappa Pro-15LF-2 (definitely leaning toward going with this driver)
tweeter: 109b... as it turns out, so does the Selenium D220Ti-8 1" Horn Driver (definitely going with this driver)

that formation can be had here (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/as4735.pdf)
Different speaker but same drivers

[Randy L]

I run the Kappa 15LF's in my own PA designs. Been running them for about 6 years now.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-460
I love them since they extend down as low as some 18" subs!

However, someone here recommended a fairly new version...the KappaLITE neo woofer. Compare the specs and you'll see that the "Lite" has almost double the excursion of the awesome KappaLF. If I ever design new PA speakers, I will definately be using the new drivers.

I haven't yet been able to blow the KappaLF's yet, so no need to replace them.

[Paul O]

This is an 8 ohm speaker calling for one 8 ohm driver for tweet duty, and one 8ohm driver for woofer duty. The 2416H and the 2032H respectively. The confusion regarding the impedance of these drivers may come from this document
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/MR800%20Series/MR825.pdf

wherein JBL is indicating with illustrations and diagrams, that the tweeter is 3.2 ohms, and the woofer is 4.25 ohms. Yes exacly.. those DCR values are typical of 4ohm nominal drivers but if the crossover is based on an 8ohm impedance it should work reasonable well with alternate drivers.



but for the woofer, we are aiming for the woofer that will perform the best in the voicing and accuracy category as opposed to LFE

Well if that's your goal then you don't want 15's at all you want 10's. The 15+1 PA speakers is THE most compromized speaker design ever, by rights a 15 should never be allowed to operate above 800hz because of beaming, and good luck finding a 1" compression driver that can handle a crossover that low with any amount of output and high end extension. By far the best sounding 15" PA cabs are all 3-way designs, I'm working on a set right now that will utilize a semi-horn loaded 8" mid and 1" CD horn to bring all voice coils into physical alignment. The low frequency driver is an Eminence 15796 which is the old version of the KappaPro 15A, with 500hz and 2khz crossovers this combo is very hi-fi. If you want to retain a 2-way design the answer is to use a 2" exit compression driver and cross it at 600-800hz, but these drivers are considerable more expensive of course.


I am expecting this upgrade to be substantial. And in the end, if the stock JBL crossover does not mate these two replacement drivers the way we want it to, we will swap it out for the Selenium 2V2K/350 2-Way Passive Crossover (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-254)

I doubt you'll get better results from the Selenium crossover, I wouldn't be surprised of the JBL crossover has 3rd or 4th order filters and it may also have more high frequency attenuation available which is something the Selenium driver will need. I'm sure these drivers will handle more power and the D220 will have more high end extension so as long as you get the crossover sorted you should achieve your goal.

[wg_ski]

but for the woofer, we are aiming for the woofer that will perform the best in the voicing and accuracy category as opposed to LFE, as we will be adding subs to this setup later more than likely. However, having said that, if the Eminence Kappa Pro-15LF-2 15" will voice just as well as the Eminence Kappa Pro-15A 15", then we will most definitely want the LF version because it has more low end extension. I AM REALLY LOOKING FOR SOMEONE THAT HAS SOME INSIGHT INTO THIS COMPARISON FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Voicing and vocal quality and accuracy are by an order of magnitude much more important to me in this particular instance than the lower frequencies because we can always add a sub later if we need to.

Six of one half dozen of the other as far as using the LF version is concerned. They're just a different trade off on the box size/extension/xmax triangle. Neither will do a 15"/1" worth a darn - none of them will. An 8" midrange is the most cost effective option all things considered. A 10"/1" 2 way is the better and more recommended option for use with subs. BUT I have found that some program material is better suited to 10" 2 way, and other is more suited to 15" 3 way - even when subs are used. Depends on how much output in the 80-200 Hz range is needed. Announcements, different genres of live music, and DJing with the 40Hz band boosted to the sky have different spectral requirements.

[soundquest]

Well if that's your goal then you don't want 15's at all you want 10's. The 15+1 PA speakers is THE most compromized speaker design ever, by rights a 15 should never be allowed to operate above 800hz because of beaming, and good luck finding a 1" compression driver that can handle a crossover that low with any amount of output and high end extension. By far the best sounding 15" PA cabs are all 3-way designs, I'm working on a set right now that will utilize a semi-horn loaded 8" mid and 1" CD horn to bring all voice coils into physical alignment. The low frequency driver is an Eminence 15796 which is the old version of the KappaPro 15A, with 500hz and 2khz crossovers this combo is very hi-fi. If you want to retain a 2-way design the answer is to use a 2" exit compression driver and cross it at 600-800hz, but these drivers are considerable more expensive of course.




This is our goal using a 15" driver and a 1" compression driver/horn. And yes, well aware of the beaming a driver of this diameter creates--it is less than ideal to put it lightly. However, given our budget/time constraints, this is what we will be working with. Later on down the road, we may consider turning this into a three way design wherein an 8" mid/tweet cabinet is fabricated to sit atop. I have seen this done before and with very good results I might add. Any recommendations for a suitable high endish 8" for this duty around 97db sensitivity and 8ohms impedance?

BTW, we will be selling the tweeters from this JBL setup (one works perfectly, the other needs a new diaphram). They fetch a decent amount of coin on Ebay surprisingly enough. The woofers are next. Some people go crazy for this older stuff.

[wg_ski]

B&C makes a couple of nice 8". But the Beta 8 is surprisingly good at 60% of the price. Sensitivity is around 93 - but with a 96db woofer/midbass and 500 Hz crossover it's actually not bad.

If you are really stuck on a 15"/1" system and you want it to sound "ok" you have to do two things. First, accept the fact that a $30 1" driver will NOT be up to the task. You gotta spend $100 to get one that you can really cross over at 1.5-2k. Second, you have to re-think which 15" you use - and it may not be the one with the best bass response and highest power handling. Those typically start breaking up at 1k or so in addition to the beaming. Cones and motors optimized for bass don't work so well at 2kHz. A driver with a semi-exponential cone, stiffening ribs, and a _small voice coil_ will be smoother (on axis) out higher. It will still beam, but the other undesirable effects can be minimized.

[Randy L]

^ Ski brings up a valid point. PLUS...you will be sacrificing either the highs or lows, depending on how high you place the speakers. Put the speaker on a pole or stand...you lose bass response. Place the speaker on the floor, or close to it, and the dancefloor gets crowded...you lose the highs past the front half of the dancefloor.

[soundquest]

With the last two points being made and with the aim of making a 3-way system. Specifically which 8" drivers would be suitable for mid range duty in this type of a setup, at least the setup that this will become wherein all drivers are controlled through an electronic crossover? Basically, the 15's would be turned into dedicated sub-woofers (hence the decision to use the LF version for now) and left on the floor, while the custom made 8/1 sattelites would reside atop a pole. Another way of putting it...which 8" pro sound driver would you use in a hi-fi setup with a mid-fi budget? I know some will let on that this simply can't be accomplished with a mid-fi budget but I know otherwise. In fact that's one of the points behind DIY (one of many).

[wg_ski]

The only 'cheap' one I would consider is the 8PW3. Personally, I like the Beta 8 and 8PE21 - they use the same cone. The B&C is only useful above 200 Hz for a true 3-way, and won't work for satellites.

If I were building 8" satellites, I'd consider using two per box instead of one. Without baffle and/or floor support they can get thin in the 100-200 Hz range. This is EQ-able, but requires power.

[jasonc]

I built the Blue Wonders using the Beta 8 for the discontinued Hammer driver (already had the Hammer 18's). They're fine for what they are - big, loud, heavy hi-fi-ish sounding speakers that work well for parties- but I wouldn't consider them as serious pro DJ speakers.

I know somone already linked the site above, but IMO, if you're competent enough with wordworking to build the cabinets, Bill Fitzmaurice's horn designs are extremely hard to beat for the money. Check out the forums on his site too. That's not knocking any of the good advice you've already received on this thread-

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com

[donprice]

This is our goal using a 15" driver and a 1" compression driver/horn. And yes, well aware of the beaming a driver of this diameter creates--it is less than ideal to put it lightly. However, given our budget/time constraints, this is what we will be working with.

I recently built something you might have interest in...the 1" econoWave with the Kappalite 3015 (not 3015LF). The econoWave uses the Pyle 612 CD horn (JBL clone) and the Selenium D220Ti driver. See the eWave thread on AudioKarma for extensive discussion (>620 pages) and crossover specs. The HF rolls off at ~3000 Hz and the LF rolls off at 1200 Hz giving an acoustic crossover point of about 1600 Hz. I haven't rigged up the testing mics yet so I can't show you a frequency response curve or suggest any fine tuning. All I can say is that is is stupid loud for home theater use and sounds pretty damn smooth to me. I also built a pair (with JBL 2206 12s not 15s) that are being used for side fills (150 Hz and up?) on rock club gigs and the combo has held up well though the crossover components should be beefed up if you are really going to pound them.

I know, it isn't supposed to work. And anyone that has built more than about 4 pairs of speakers has me beat. So take my advice with a healthy dose of salt grains.

[MusicForMatt]

I AM REALLY LOOKING FOR SOMEONE THAT HAS SOME INSIGHT INTO THIS COMPARISON FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Voicing and vocal quality and accuracy are by an order of magnitude much more important to me in this particular instance than the lower frequencies because we can always add a sub later if we need to. We will swap it out for the Selenium 2V2K/350 2-Way Passive Crossover (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-254)

I have the bolt-on version of that Selenium D220Ti, AND that 2V2K-350 passive X-over, in a similar 2-way 15" format cab. If using a sub, I would recommend the Selenium 15PW3 driver, instead of the Eminence drivers. The 15PW3 shows flat, smooth response from 100 Hz (which is approx. my sub-to-main crossover point) up to 2K-- and then a smooth rolloff with no "ringing" peaks-- for the compression driver and pre-made crossover you mentioned.

Spec sheet here, but PE has 'em (that's where I bought mine!)...

http://soundmaster.tradernet.eu/products/prod00000013/15PW3.pdf

Midbass and midrange with those three components in my rig is EXTREMELY clean and detailed, even at high volumes. Despite (valid) warnings about pre-made crossovers and running 15's to 2K, the sound is excellent!

One last thing: that Selenium crossover is designed specifically for those two drivers (D220Ti and 15PW3). Also, depending on your horn lens used and listening environment, you may need some active EQ for flatter response above 3K-ish, as some horn lenses have certain roll-off characteristics... season to taste by ear!

Hope I could help, some!

Matt

[wg_ski]

The 15PW3 is one of those drivers designed for smooth response at expense of extension and power handling. I used to use the older Pyle drivers and could cross at 3k without midrange screech. But they were only supposedly good for 150W and had 3-mm x-max. Those type drivers did work in a 2 way if you were willing to accept the beaming. If your typical app is block parties where the audience averages 100ft from the speakers the response is smooth enough - but not necessarily high SPL or with any real bass. It sure beats overdriving a pair of Pioneer home speakers trying to accomplish the same ends.

If the 2V2K-350 were indeed optimized for the PW3 and D220, one would expect a nice true 4th order L-R acoustic with those particular drivers. Pre-made or not it may *be* the right crossover.

[Randy L]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/97LT1/DJSpeaker.jpg

Above is a pic of my 3-way setup using the Kappa 15LF, two 8" Carvin PS-8's and Carvin PS1100 compression horn.

Here is the same Eminence driver...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-446

Personally, I think the Selenium DH200E sounds cleaner than the Carvin (Eminence) horn. I'm sure the DH220 will sound even better!

The Carvin 8" drivers are Eminence, but not sure which is the equivalent Eminence number.

I've ran these speakers for years now with never a blown driver, and often ran very hard. I always get compliments on its sound wherever I play, though it's a bit ugly to me. I'm redesigning them with a full faced grille.

[soundquest]

Those look nice. The D220's arrive on Wednesday. I like the idea of running dual 8" drivers in the sats -- I bet they voice pretty darn good. Do they fill a large hall adequately? I have heard the bass from the Kappa 15LF is pretty clean (depends on the enclosure and source of course). How well do they perform in your particular setup?

[Randy L]

A pair of them (one on each side of stage) fills a large banquet hall very well. I've done large corporate parties for 300+ without any issues. You'd need 4 or more for a large outdoor venue though.

[Taterworks]

Side-by-side mids is a terrible idea, no matter who did it and when, unless you're looking for a box with a 40-degree horizontal coverage pattern (essentially a flashlight). Place the midbass drivers vertically and use a smaller horn that will fit within the width of the midbasses (but within that constraint, fit the largest one you can.)

[billfitzmaurice]

Side-by-side mids is a terrible idea, no matter who did it and when, unless you're looking for a box with a 40-degree horizontal coverage pattern (essentially a flashlight). Place the midbass drivers vertically and use a smaller horn that will fit within the width of the midbasses (but within that constraint, fit the largest one you can.)As long as we're getting into constructive criticism, bag the pole mounting over the subs. Doing so means you've got the subs split to the left and right, which causes all sorts of cancellations, and placing the subs under the mains means you can't place them close to the rear walls, so you're not getting boundary reinforcement while you are getting reflection nulls.

[Randy L]

Bill,

That seems to be the common dilemna of pro PA sound...being limited in placement of speakers. I would have to concurr that the vast majority of the venues require considerable sacrifice in sound quality due to improper speaker placements.

[billfitzmaurice]

Bill,

That seems to be the common dilemna of pro PA sound...being limited in placement of speakers. I would have to concurr that the vast majority of the venues require considerable sacrifice in sound quality due to improper speaker placements.
But you don't have to put the mains above the subs. Use stands and cluster the subs together back at the rear wall. IMO the CEO of any and every speaker company that puts pole mounts on subs should be flogged. OTOH every sub sold should come with placement instructions; AFAIK none do.

[Randy L]

Ahh...good point about clustering the subs. :D