Look what I found!

[mzisserson]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-132&ctab=1#Tabs

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-134

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-136

Need to model them. I have the feeling the numbers are not telling the whole story of what these can do. On paper a bit pricy, but they look like they may be suprising performers. Its my gut, but we'll see. Too bad I have no projects need a sub on the plate...

[tomzarbo]

There's also a thread referring to the matching passive radiators here:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=216200

It's cool to see new stuff every once in awhile!

I'm still hoping for matching passives for some of the TB neo subs myself.

TomZ

[johnnyrichards]

$150 for a 12" subwoofer with an XMax of 7mm? No, thanks. The Reference subs are the same price and twice the performer and nowhere near as ugly, to boot.

Come on, Dayton.

[gc1]

I'd like to see a 3-D visual on how a flat cone radiates compared to a standard cone.
Nice looking woofers, but a bit pricey... we should remind PE there's a recession goin' on!!
:(

[Paul Carmody]

I'd like to see a 3-D visual on how a flat cone radiates compared to a standard cone.

The wavelengths are so long, I don't see how it matters. As long as the woofer is pistonic within its passband, and doesn't break up.

[gc1]

The wavelengths are so long, I don't see how it matters. As long as the woofer is pistonic within its passband, and doesn't break up.

Curosity... guess it's part of DIY'ers thinkin'!!
I assume the Sd is a bit less with a flat cone... and curious to the other differences.

[mzisserson]

$150 for a 12" subwoofer with an XMax of 7mm? No, thanks. The Reference subs are the same price and twice the performer and nowhere near as ugly, to boot.

Come on, Dayton.

I am still not convinced that the xmax is telling the whole story, if it did there would be no way the ND105 would be reaching in-room, normal listening levels down to 38Hz.

I know there is "no replacement for displacement" down low, and I cannot coorilate it just yet (WIP) but there is something between acoustic enegery and "loudness" that I cannot get a satisfying answer on.

I think Dayton is a little too "honest" on their xmax ratings anyway. With their eff, and power handeling, there is no reason these should fall short.

[johnnyrichards]

I am still not convinced that the xmax is telling the whole story, if it did there would be no way the ND105 would be reaching in-room, normal listening levels down to 38Hz.

I know there is "no replacement for displacement" down low, and I cannot coorilate it just yet (WIP) but there is something between acoustic enegery and "loudness" that I cannot get a satisfying answer on.

I think Dayton is a little too "honest" on their xmax ratings anyway. With their eff, and power handeling, there is no reason these should fall short.

In four cubic feet, tuned to 25 Hz with a 2nd order, 20 Hz highpass with a Q of 0.707 the 12" will reach the low 20's and handle less than 100 watts. At 2 ohms. So, optimistic power handling specs for a home theater environment coupled with an incredibly difficult load to drive using most subwoofer amps equals poor value. Double the drivers to get to a 4 ohm nominal and you are looking at a 200 watt refrigerator in your living room. Hoffman strikes again. Output is displacement determined, not necessarily sensitivity determined.

These are car audio subs, make no mistake. In fact, they would do very well in a small, sealed enclosure but unless you actually have a need for a 4" mounting depth there is no reason to choose this driver over any number of similarly priced but much higher performing alternatives.

[johnnyrichards]

In a typical car audio install for a 12" they will handle 100 watts in 1.25 cubic feet before exceeding Xmax. I really doubt they are underestimating the XMax spec for this driver, pretty much all of the "shallow mount" car subwoofers run right around the 6-8mm mark.

But, at the 7mm of Xmax with a 100 watts and a 12db/octave transform applied below ~80Hz to simulate the typical cabin gain in a car it will hit 110+ decibels which is pretty decent. Not up to par of the output potential of a lot of (ok most) other $150 drivers, but usable. The 1.25 cubic feet is the largest enclosure this driver can have and not exceed Xmax at 100 watts. The 250 watt RMS rating is obviously a thermal rating - real world power handling is on-par with the Dayton SDVC subs.

[Æ]

Oh yeah, look what I found! (This is what it's going to take to afford a couple of those woofers!)

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7109&d=1266788435

Sixty eight $5 bills and six $10 bills!

[mzisserson]

Oh yeah, look what I found! (This is what it's going to take to afford a couple of those woofers!)


Sixty eight $5 bills and six $10 bills!

I laughed. True, but there has to be a reason behind it. They may not be worth it, but people judge books by their covers way too often around here. :rolleyes:

[Æ]

I laughed. True, but there has to be a reason behind it. They may not be worth it, but people judge books by their covers way too often around here. :rolleyes:

A different picture of it.

[MSaturn]

Also, I seriously doubt those ND105s are really hitting 38Hz. You're hearing harmonics. 76Hz is going to make "38Hz" sound real loud.

For evidence we all can share, see zaph's tests of smaller drivers, or even the nicer 5.5" models (which perform much better). The combined distortion of small drivers reaches levels of about -20dB from reference at 40Hz.

[Wolf]

If the ND90 is like the Aura NS3 and can hit the 65 Hz in a 4" cube...

Then the ND105 can probably accurately hit 38 Hz. Did you do the model to verify it, MS? I somehow doubt you did.

Show your work.;)
Later,
Wolf

[MSaturn]

I don't believe in 5 watt bass, for one.

For two, "accurate" precludes a level of harmonics so audible that the original waveform is heavily modified.

For three .. the NS3's 3rd order distortion is nearly at the reference level at 65Hz. I don't care how important you think distortion is, you can't ignore that kind of number. Those tones are going to fall right into the "fat-*** bass impression" section of the passband.

[Wolf]

You know what- it sounds good as a Passive Assist like that, and is not 'fat-bass' as you say. It's a little lean if I say so myself.

Like I said- do the work.
Wolf

[DS-21]

$150 for a 12" subwoofer with an XMax of 7mm? No, thanks. The Reference subs are the same price and twice the performer and nowhere near as ugly, to boot.

Come on, Dayton.

They're not designed to compete with the References, though. Hopefully if you call up PE and say "I want to build a cubic home subwoofer box," someone will steer you towards the Refs. These designed to go where the References won't fit. For what they are, they look fairly priced. Nice addition to the market!


I am still not convinced that the xmax is telling the whole story, if it did there would be no way the ND105 would be reaching in-room, normal listening levels down to 38Hz.

Aura makes the best cheap motor (both in terms of output and quality) of anyone by far, but what you're reporting could well be room mode influenced. Outdoors, the story would likely be quite different.

[MSaturn]

Haha, I'm never going to use a 3" driver for bass. I don't think 4 10's is big enough to get to 40Hz.

... not that I don't support efforts to get large bass out of small drivers. I just think reality has to come in to play.

[gc1]

38hz is the tree... small midwoofers are the car...
:eek:

[MusicForMatt]

38hz is the tree... small midwoofers are the car...
:eek:

(faintly) "--whatabout my MFSL CD that was in your player?"

WOW! I can see the ad now: "For Sale: One new Silvia body kit for 240SX. New, never installed. Make offer..."

Tee Hee!

[mzisserson]

Like wolf said, try it. Also, ask Lunchmoney. He herd it, and was amazed by it.

I see an awful lot of guys around here who will make statements without actually experiencing it.

Furthermore if you DID THE WORK, Of course I used room reenforcement! It would be foolish not to. They sit 2ft from the side walls, 2ft from the back. When modeled properly in Jeff's software suite, it is amazing what is there.

For further backup, in Lunchmoney's large room, with them further out from the corners then designed to be, you could clearly see from the mic at the listening position that 40 and below were excited just as strong as the rest of the fq band.

Did it make you hit a brown note at 180dB? No. Did it compliment the music yes, is it missing anything? No.

I took a shot and it worked. It is easy to design a big speaker with bass, working around drivers limitatins is far more challanging... and fun! They have their shortcomings as any budget driver speaker will... Deep bass is not one of them.

Until you can put-up.... ;):p

[philiparcario]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-132&ctab=1#Tabs

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-134

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-136

Need to model them. I have the feeling the numbers are not telling the whole story of what these can do. On paper a bit pricy, but they look like they may be suprising performers. Its my gut, but we'll see. Too bad I have no projects need a sub on the plate...

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-142 15 inch radiator 99 dollars




http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-136 12 inch dvc 149 dollars


It looks to me put them in a 90 liter box you get an f3 of 25hz f6 of 22hz and at 20hz f8.

put them in a 140 liter box f3 of 20.4hz f6 of 18hz.


you need a 2ohm amp a pair of 140liter end tables would really be something. drivers and rads would be 500 a good pro amp could drive them at 2 ohms each channel. maybe a crown xTi 1000. you would have a pair of sub 20hz subs! for about 1000 dollars. I am sure some one can figure a better amp then the crown it needs to be 2ohms per channel.

[evilskillit]

38hz is the tree... small midwoofers are the car...
:eek:

Poor 240sx (sheds a tear) :(

[MSaturn]

I find general disdain for science and obvious engineering limitations disturbing. My greatest enemy is the small speaker!

I did like the bass I got from my RS150-4's, though.

[evilskillit]

You know what they say, there is no replacement for displacement. No how do I bolt a turbocharger or nitrous kit on this 3" speaker? (car analogy)

[gc1]

(faintly) "--whatabout my MFSL CD that was in your player?"

WOW! I can see the ad now: "For Sale: One new Silvia body kit for 240SX. New, never installed. Make offer..."

Tee Hee!

Maybe this is what made the tree fall.......
:)

[mzisserson]

You know what they say, there is no replacement for displacement. No how do I bolt a turbocharger or nitrous kit on this 3" speaker? (car analogy)

Great anaolgy! Perhaps the huge xlim, ultra strining neo motor and low Fs are the speaker equic of boosting...

But it aint no replacement for a 383 Stroker!

[Wolf]

Hijack!
Ah!! A Mopar fan are we? :D:D
We have more in common everyday, MZ!
Later,
Wolf

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/wolf_teeth_speaker/100_3604.jpg

[evilskillit]

I thought a 383 stroker was a chevy 350 with a 400 crank. I could be mistaken.

[Æ]

We have more in common everyday, MZ!
Later,
Wolf

Except for your spelling is much better than his!

[Wolf]

I thought it was a stroked 383.
Them's Mopar numbers!
Wolf

[MusicForMatt]

I thought a 383 stroker was a chevy 350 with a 400 crank. I could be mistaken.

'Fraid he's right, Wolf!

The 383 Mopar was a smaller version of the 440 c.i.d. you are prob. familiar with. The "B" family of the same basic design consisted of every size from 350 c.i.d. (seldom seen, Fury only, I believe), 361, 383, 400. The "RB" used a taller block and included the aforementioned 440 as well as the 413 and 426 WEDGE-- NOT the Hemi, as this was BASED on the same short block, but with drastic differences in the heads, of course.

For a few years in the early 60's, MERCURY had a 383 c.i.d. V8 too! Confused yet?!

The 383 CHEVY is a "hybrid", never built by the factory. 350 block (dime a dozen) coupled with a crankshaft from the 400 c.i.d. small block. Most every example you'll find today uses aftermarket rotating parts, as-- for one thing-- there never were many 400's built by the factory, period.

Remeber the early Z-28 that had a "302"? More parts swapping, this time by the factory! Block from the 327 c.i.d. mixed with a crank from the 283. High compression and def. rev-happy!

Signed,

Your Faithful True-Blue Chrysler Fan

[Wolf]

Yeah- I'm aware of the 426 Wedge and 426 Hemi. Different beasts. I also was aware of the 383/440 connection. I was also aware of the Merc 383.

The hybrids, whether factory or not, was not something I was aware of, but those are GM pieces.

I never got to hear a Ford 427-cammer, but I hear those were MONSTERS. I have seen pictures.

The 570ci KB-HEMI I apparently heard and don't remember was the biggest I've experienced.

And now, back to you regularly scheduled PE Tech-Talk Forum...

later,
Wolf

[mzisserson]

Except for your spelling is much better than his!

Holy smokes. I has my 2yr old helped me with that one... She was on my lap lol... I did not bother to check it, not the most on topic and was in a rush. :rolleyes:


I thought it was a stroked 383.
Them's Mopar numbers!
Wolf

I am an old MOPAR fan, but the GM 383 hold a deep place as I have built one with my brother for a Jeep CJ7. Pound for pound it was the most monsterous motor I have ever expirenced. Espically when you wind it up to 7K rpm! He has it all sorts of cammed out, high pressure oil and fuel, larger rocker springs, rolled rockers, etc. To this day I think I most some of the top end of my hearing from it. Have you ever seen a jeep that can roast a porche off the line? woah...

[mzisserson]

Someday I plan on going big again as a project... perhaps a chassies up restore. Until then my ride is below. Quite the oppsite. My work van has a 350 long block though! IT will *reach* 60 downhill with a tail wind!

As if now I do not justice to classic cars... :(

[ligs]

I am still not convinced that the xmax is telling the whole story, if it did there would be no way the ND105 would be reaching in-room, normal listening levels down to 38Hz.

I know there is "no replacement for displacement" down low, and I cannot coorilate it just yet (WIP) but there is something between acoustic enegery and "loudness" that I cannot get a satisfying answer on.

I think Dayton is a little too "honest" on their xmax ratings anyway. With their eff, and power handeling, there is no reason these should fall short.

By using an old spread sheet, given the 4 mm one-way travel, a single ND 105can preduce about 80 db around 38 Hz in a sealed cabinet. Adding the room reinforcement and two channel sound, one can get to mid 80's db for 38 Hz.

[johnnyrichards]

The 383 stroker was the small block GM should have built.

[evilskillit]

I was never into domestics and v8s, tho they do seem nice. All I care about my car is that its small, light and handles well, power is a very nice extra. Something that, pound for pound is pretty easily gotten out of a well built small motor possibly with the addition of a turbocharger or supercharger. However, I wouldn't turn down something with a big V8... with a turbocharger or supercharger either. Heheh

[Æ]

Holy smokes. I has my 2yr old helped me with that one... She was on my lap lol... I did not bother to check it, not the most on topic and was in a rush. :rolleyes:

He "herd" it? Is he a herder? Cattle or sheep? :p

[Mr. Wizard]

Maybe this is what made the tree fall.......
:)

What is that album?

[gc1]

What is that album?

"The Power and The Majesty", an old steam train recorded in different locations, and the other side is storms in different places. The first time I heard it on -real- speakers; they were Klipschhorns... almost knocked me off of my chair!!
:)