New Design: The AviaTrix

[waynew]

Stuffing is always to taste, much like salt and pepper. In this case, I would recommend that you start lightly and work your way up from there. I cannot remember exactly what we did, but I want to say that a pound per cubic foot is a good place to start.

WayneW

[alphaiii]

Wayne,
Amazing work on the cabinets!


Curt,
Measurements for these guys look great. I'd love to heard these.

BTW, any chance an Aviatrix TM is in the works?

[waynew]

Curt and I are working on the AviaTrix MT. We should have something solid in a few weeks.


Regards,

WayneW

[parodielin]

Any idea of when the flat pack might be available for sealed and MLTL tower?

[ckmoore]

Was there ever going to be a kit for the CC, or on one for L/C/R ?

[curt_c]

Any idea of when the flat pack might be available for sealed and MLTL tower?


Was there ever going to be a kit for the CC, or on one for L/C/R ?

I know they are diligently working with their vendor to provide a knockdown kit for the sealed L/C/R version, and I suspect it will be available shortly. I don’t know if the MLTL will be offered as a kit or not, but it is certainly a possibility, depending on the demand.

It would be best if everyone who are interested in the AviaTrix TL kits let PE know.

C

[petethekiller]

another CC question....I am asking this for all the wrong reasons.

I like to build the cc enclosure big enough for my 55 inch LED TV to rest upon. This would mean I would have to build a larger enclosure. I have 2 options, 1 building a wall inside the enclosure to match the volume specified by the design or get all crazy and build a ported CC or a larger sealed enclosure for the CC.

I don't need to go much bigger that 24x15x6.5, would this extra volume present a challenge or would I be ok sealed?

Thanks

Pete

[waynew]

Pete,

The way I see it, these are the two easiest options.

1. Build the sealed version, and block off the appropriate volume to match the design volume.

2. Build the ported version, and keep the baffle width the same, but change the other dimensions to fit your requirements. Again, You will need to keep the same volume as our original design for the ported version.

My 2 cents.

Good Luck,

WayneW

[DIYNut42]

Pete,

You could always build a stand to go over the CC in the same fashion as the baffle of the speaker. By same fashion I mean same wood grain, stain, paint, etc... That way you can build the CC to spec, theres no unnecessary strain put on the speaker, plus you have a fancy TV stand for your nice flat screen to sit on! :D

Ryan

[petethekiller]

Pete,

You could always build a stand to go over the CC in the same fashion as the baffle of the speaker. By same fashion I mean same wood grain, stain, paint, etc... That way you can build the CC to spec, theres no unnecessary strain put on the speaker, plus you have a fancy TV stand for your nice flat screen to sit on! :D

Ryan


That's perfect....problem solved!

[DIYNut42]

Glad I could help. If it were me I would build it to look like a base for the TV to sit on. Mabey with a small lip at the top sticking out over the sides and front to give it a profesional look, and a rectangular hole in the front for the CC to slide into. You could brace around the inside area around the CC as well. In theory it shouldnt be much different than having your CC sitting in a cubby hole in an entertainment center under the TV.

[giverago]

My home theater room is 10' by 12' The Aviatrix speakers will be for L/R channel and have to be placed 6-8" away from the wall. Will the vented sound alright or will they sound off balanced or have to much bass? Will the sealed version be better for what I need? thank for the help

[curt_c]

My home theater room is 10' by 12' The Aviatrix speakers will be for L/R channel and have to be placed 6-8" away from the wall. Will the vented sound alright or will they sound off balanced or have to much bass? Will the sealed version be better for what I need? thank for the help

The MLTL's will be fine at that distance from the wall. Just adjust the tweeter resistor value as per the crossover drawing. That is, replace one of the 12.5 ohm resistors with a 10 ohm resistor.

C

[giverago]

The MLTL's will be fine at that distance from the wall. Just adjust the tweeter resistor value as per the crossover drawing. That is, replace one of the 12.5 ohm resistors with a 10 ohm resistor.

C

Awesome thanks, is it possible to just buy the parts to make 1 center channel?

[fastbike1]

Sure. You'll have to order separately, so you won't get a package deal. You have the build specs, just remember the materials will be half the build sheet.


Awesome thanks, is it possible to just buy the parts to make 1 center channel?

[lostboy77]

Warning . . . slightly off topic!

In light of the fact that the ND105-8 is on sale now for $9.99 per driver, is there any chance we could see a "baby" Aviatrix design based on these, or are these drivers too dissimilar?

[mintos]

They won't be tomorrow

[curt_c]

How about an MT version of the AviaTrix? Would that suffice?

C

[lostboy77]

That would do quite nicely, I've been eagerly waiting for you to finish up that design and post it. Just as a teaser, is it going to be ported or sealed?

BTW, I haven't said it yet, but thanks for all the work you do here!

How about an MT version of the AviaTrix? Would that suffice?

C

[waynew]

How about, cabinets are done, Curt and I just have to get drivers loaded and cross-overs assembled for the AviaTrix MT. I will take some pictures tomorrow and see about getting them uploaded.


Regards,
WayneW

[ckmoore]

Question.

How much would it affect the sound if the woofers are recessed JUST a tiny bit, like 1/8", just enough to keep that edge lip from standing proud?

[waynew]

There is no reason to recess the woofer. It is a stamped metal frame that has almost no thickness to it. Trying to recess it would be an excersize in frustration.


WayneW

[ckmoore]

Well, slap my *** and call me Shirley. This whole time I thought the ND140's frame edge had a small curl upwards at the end.
Sure enough, Its flat to infinity.

Yep, no reason to recess that.

[absolootbs]

Trying to recess it would be an excersize in frustration.


WayneW

i toyed around with it with the nd105 on my new horizons... and yes, it was.

[giverago]

Will there be a problem if the port hole is 3/4" lower then specified on the drawing? miss-calculation on my part

[johnastockman]

Will there be a problem if the port hole is 3/4" lower then specified on the drawing? miss-calculation on my part

Man, this is a huge thread, what a great design. I've made mistakes like that...I measured wrong (more than once) and the nice bracing I just glued in was right where the port tube went. I had to change the location of the port on the front baffle about an inch closer to the bottom and an inch towards the side wall. Since the port is 3", I had to violate the "port should be at least its own diameter away from interior walls and its interior opening", so I should've kept it to 3", but ended up being 2" of clearance along the sides of the port, but not where the opening is. Now, I don't have any measurements, but it sounds much better than the price of the driver/materials would suggest. I've built a few just like it and they perform very well...minus the less-than-optimal port hole location. No difference in SQ that I can tell. One is used for HT, two others are for 2-channel music like mine. You'll be fine. The no-no that I know is never locate a port directly behind a woofer. I can measure 3 or 4 times and still get it wrong.

John A.

[curt_c]

Will there be a problem if the port hole is 3/4" lower then specified on the drawing? miss-calculation on my part

Our prototype had the vent roughly 3/4" lower as well, and Wayne adjusted it in the finished enclosure. I heard no significant difference although the MathCAD model showed less ripple in the resultant response when the port is in the specified position.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, and certainly wouldn't build new enclosures just because of that slight mis-step.

C

[johnnyrichards]

Curt, has anyone ever told you what an asset you are?

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

Curt, has anyone ever told you what an asset you are?

and his buddy wayne.

[giverago]

Our prototype had the vent roughly 3/4" lower as well, and Wayne adjusted it in the finished enclosure. I heard no significant difference although the MathCAD model showed less ripple in the resultant response when the port is in the specified position.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, and certainly wouldn't build new enclosures just because of that slight mis-step.

C

awesome! good to know, thank you for the reply. I didnt receive any instructions with my kit, how much poly fill should be added to the ml tl? I put around 2 pounds in each to make it look like the drawing on the first page of this thread i hope its not to much.

[curt_c]

awesome! good to know, thank you for the reply. I didnt receive any instructions with my kit, how much poly fill should be added to the ml tl? I put around 2 pounds in each to make it look like the drawing on the first page of this thread i hope its not to much.

I think I suggested somewhere in this (rather ungainly) thread to start out with around 1 lb. of acousta stuff per speaker. I suspect that 2 lbs. will adversely attenuate the port output. Fortunately you should be able to fish the stuffing out through the driver and port openings.

In general: When I stuff, I start out on the light side, and add until the port output just starts to be attenuated, -then take out that last handful or two. I generally find that less is more when it comes to stuffing. -Unless we are talking about turkey stuffing, of course... :D

I really like this design, as it compares favorably to designs with much more costly drivers. Do they sound better than the Accuton's in my Uber-Exclamations!? -I'm afraid not, but they come surprisingly close.

I look forward to hearing all of your opinions on the design.

C

[DIYNut42]

If anyone else has asked this I appologize, but would a thin set of grilles to cover the drivers affect the performance at all since they are surface mounted? I mean a set of grilles thick enough to avoid the surround hitting the cloth durring excursion, but not so thick that the inside grilles edges would create any diffraction problems.

[curt_c]

The surrounds on the woofers + their Xmax dictate the grill frame thickness. Using conventional mdf grill frames would suggest they will be thick enough to cause some amount of diffraction issues.

A grill frame consisting of a wire frame suspended out from the speaker front baffle would be a better choice. Picture a rectangular frame made out of 3/16” brass, aluminum, etc with a thin grill cloth stretched and glued over it.

C

[DIYNut42]

A grill frame consisting of a wire frame suspended out from the speaker front baffle would be a better choice. Picture a rectangular frame made out of 3/16” brass, aluminum, etc with a thin grill cloth stretched and glued over it.

C

That is pretty much what I had in mind. I figured if I just slapped a conventional MDF frame on there it wouldn't work out. I wanted to get a second oppinion though. Thank you for your time, and the info! :)

Ryan

[ckmoore]

If only PE would offer an L/C/R kit. I would buy today.

[johnnyrichards]

and his buddy wayne.

Absolutely. I can't wait to meet some of these guys in a few weeks... Holy smokes, right around the corner!

[grcassidy]

G'Day, I'm currently planning a sealed AviaTrix build and am wondering if the baffles need a rounded edge, 45 deg edge, or is a square edge ok. What are the likely sonic differences?

Thanks in advance
Gary

[curt_c]

We are talking about small aberrations in the tweeter response due to the increased edge diffraction. Most likely on the edge of audibility. You can model the various edge treatments on the BDS program over at the FRD Consortium:
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm

Out prototype enclosures had roughly 1/2" beveled edges.

C

[grcassidy]

Awesome, Thanks.

That BDS program is great. I've used other programs from Jeff Bagby and co. to model a subwoofer response with room gain applied. Very good also.

I assume if I compare the modelled response from a 1/2" chamfer baffle and a sharp edge baffle, and add/subtract the response difference from your real life measurements then the resultant response would be a pretty good approximation to the real life response of a square edge baffle?

If the above is reasonable, can this also be applied to different shaped baffles?

Cheers
Gary

[curt_c]

You've got it!

If the program can model the baffle shape, the diffraction signature will be pretty close. What the programs don't account for is the proximity of adjacent speakers, which can also significantly alter the response.

C

[grcassidy]

Great. I'm planning to do a tower speaker with a sealed aviatrix at the top and a side subwoofer below. Maybe something like this

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11259&stc=1&d=1285735963

Plus a centre channel. Ordered my parts from PE today. PE were great to deal with. Should take a couple of weeks to get here in Australia. So I've got a couple of weeks to decide on the box design and buy some wood.

If anybody has any cool ideas along the lines of my drawing above I'd like to hear it.

Cheers
Gary.

[fastbike1]

Looks nice.... and welcome to the forum.


Great. I'm planning to do a tower speaker with a sealed aviatrix at the top and a side subwoofer below. Maybe something like this

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11259&stc=1&d=1285735963

Plus a centre channel. Ordered my parts from PE today. PE were great to deal with. Should take a couple of weeks to get here in Australia. So I've got a couple of weeks to decide on the box design and buy some wood.

If anybody has any cool ideas along the lines of my drawing above I'd like to hear it.

Cheers
Gary.

[grcassidy]

She who knows bests likes something a bit more conservative

http://www.parts-express.com/salesflyer/index.html

Thanks for the welcome:)

[evilskillit]

She who knows bests likes something a bit more conservative

http://www.parts-express.com/salesflyer/index.html

Thanks for the welcome:)

Wow that is so conservative that there is no image. Project scrapped eh? Just kidding. :D

[JimHRB]

If anybody has any cool ideas along the lines of my drawing above I'd like to hear it.

Cheers
Gary.

Very similar to the option for an integrated sub for the Budget Aluminum MTM on Zaph Audio's site. I like it.

[grcassidy]

Wow that is so conservative that there is no image. Project scrapped eh? Just kidding. :D

She wishes;)
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11261&stc=1&d=1285763527


Very similar to the option for an integrated sub for the Budget Aluminum MTM on Zaph Audio's site. I like it.

Indeed it is. I'm even using the RSS265HF! Great minds think alike, and sometimes ordinary minds just get lucky! I'm going to power the subs in series with a 500W amp as detailed here:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=37347

Since the Aviatrix is 7.5 wide I added the 1" side board as a spacer to fit in the sub, then I put another side board on the other side for symmetry. At this stage I'm liking this box design.

Gary.

[lostboy77]

I am currently looking into doing something very similar to this using Dr. K's MTMs for the top and dual (bipolar) 12" subs on the bottom with the Dayton 500watt sub amp in each tower. Using this same concept with the AviaTrix should result in a fantastic little tower.

Good luck and let us all know how it turns out.


She wishes;)
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11261&stc=1&d=1285763527



Indeed it is. I'm even using the RSS265HF! Great minds think alike, and sometimes ordinary minds just get lucky! I'm going to power the subs in series with a 500W amp as detailed here:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=37347

Since the Aviatrix is 7.5 wide I added the 1" side board as a spacer to fit in the sub, then I put another side board on the other side for symmetry. At this stage I'm liking this box design.

Gary.

[giverago]

have you thought of the aviatrix in the ported towed version, the low frequency volume they produce is phenomenal. lowed and perfectly matched. I am a bass nut and I rarely need to turn my sub on now for music. Just a thought

[grcassidy]

have you thought of the aviatrix in the ported towed version, the low frequency volume they produce is phenomenal. lowed and perfectly matched. I am a bass nut and I rarely need to turn my sub on now for music. Just a thought

Thanks mate. I've already brought the parts for the subs! I was wondering if I really needed the subs or not and decided that I'll build them because the speakers are for 80% HT use. Always hard to make a decision when you can't actually trial them out. So I went for sealed AviaTrix because the subs will handle below 80Hz anyway. With my current single (crappy) subwoofer I have a 10dB difference between two listening positions that are about 5' apart so I'm hoping 2 subs will even that out a bit. Having a smallish room and a (lovely) wife also limits subwoofer placement. One day I also plan on getting an AV receiver with Audyssey so that should help smooth the cross between the subwoofers and mains. Anyway we'll see...

Gary

[jszmgpolk]

Can anyone answer if a bottom firing port could be suggested in the Aviatrix design.

[curt_c]

Can anyone answer if a bottom firing port could be suggested in the Aviatrix design.

It could be suggested, but here's the rub: The TL ripple is minimized at the present port position, which is centered about 4 inches from the bottom of the enclosure. The internal termination of the port should be close to that distance regardless of the port orientation, and the internal enclosure height needs to be remain consistent as well. If the port configuration is within those constraints, I see no reason why it will not work. Certainly it would be easier to just mount the port in the rear if you don't want the port on the front baffle.

C

[Froste]

grcassidy, you asked about a AviaTrix type design with a sidefire (sub) Woofer. Well I built this one:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_VxEMw7YIqQM/TDo8UMbrTJI/AAAAAAAABKw/rd3A0N7w-7M/s512/IMG_6482.JPG

[grcassidy]

grcassidy, you asked about a AviaTrix type design with a sidefire (sub) Woofer. Well I built this one:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_VxEMw7YIqQM/TDo8UMbrTJI/AAAAAAAABKw/rd3A0N7w-7M/s512/IMG_6482.JPG

G'Day Ed,

Yeah, I saw your design last week in another thread. Looks great, and must sound great to win at MWAF! Your design actually has given me some encouragement that I'll have a nice sounding system. What 10" driver did you use, and is it active or passive?

I've built the crossovers, and now I'm waiting for some veneered board to be cut for me then some glue and screws and lacquer and should be good to go. I will probably start a build thread one of these days.

Cheers
Gary.

[Froste]

I used the RS270 and a passive XO, crossed at 255hz.

[jszmgpolk]

I want to make a curved design and want to change the dimensions. 48 tall/9" baffle and 4.5 on the rear. Will this be a problem since ive read the height is important. This will be a ported design.

[DIYNut42]

I want to make a curved design and want to change the dimensions. 48 tall/9" baffle and 4.5 on the rear. Will this be a problem since ive read the height is important. This will be a ported design.

I asked a question about widening the baffle, and Wayne said it could be widened by about 1.5". Anything more than that he said would cause diffraction problems.

[jszmgpolk]

I asked a question about widening the baffle, and Wayne said it could be widened by about 1.5". Anything more than that he said would cause diffraction problems.

What about the height? The volume is still roughly the same. Will this be an issue. Curt or Wayne help please.

[curt_c]

Here’s the rub: You can change the design however you want, but outside of certain small variations, I can’t say how it will sound with respect to the original. I can say the height won’t be an issue if your internal height remains very near 42.5”.

Making the line longer will tune it lower and while it extends the response knee, it will also lowers the output getting there, and would likely also necessitate changing the port length. Without modeling it, I can’t say how significant these changes will be. The 9” baffle width is on the edge of what I’d recommend without being too concerned about the differing diffraction effects.

My conjecture: If you make the line 48”, reduce the port length by maybe an inch.

C

[lamski]

Curt,

Have you run the TL towers along with the sealed version for a center channel? How does the sealed version hold up compared to the TL towers? Still a good sonic match for a front soundstage?

[curt_c]

The only difference between the sealed and TL is in the bass extension. I can't imagine any voicing issues mixing and matching them.

C

[DIYNut42]

Is there anyone building (or that has built) the MLTL version of these who will be using precision ports? I found two new 3" PP's fairly cheap from someone here so I decided to use them on my MLTL's. The initial drawings of the towers show 6" W/Flares, and I was curious if anyone out there used flares on both ends, and if you just built the port exactly 6" from end to end?

[curt_c]

Shhhh…. Don’t tell anyone:

The prototype used PP’s, but I didn’t use the inner flares because they are too large* to fit through the hole. This makes assembly a PITA, at best, and since I put the crossover below the port, I wanted it removable.

Soo.... I just left out the inner flare and made the total port length 5” instead… :D

Certainly one could truncate the inner flare to fit with a couple passes on the table saw, –very carefully and safely, of course, but assembly would still have to be done through the hole, counting on friction fit or tape to retain the inner flare, yet keep it removable.

After playing the design at quite high SPL's I deemed the inner flare unnecessary...

*This isn't an issue with the Dayton ports. The inner flare fits through just fine...

C

[DIYNut42]

Once again thanks Curt! Your secret is safe with me lol. I was actually able to make the port insert hole on the baffle just large enough (1/8" or so) for the inner flare to slide right through without compromising much mounting surface area for the outer flare flange. They are already cut this way so I may take a listen to them with, and without the inner flare. I did notice that earlier in this thread you mentioned that you noticed no chuffing with no inner flare though, so I may decide to just go without it in the long run. those ports have quite a bit of 3" dia. tube to them before the flare starts so I was just concerned about flubbing the length. I hope you know how much of an asset you are to those of us "newbs" learning the ropes. :)

[lamski]

Curt,

I was reading through the AviaTrix article in the PE sales flyer and you mentioned that "the AviaTrix doesn't quite keep up with your reference speakers but they come very close".

I'm just curious as to what you are currently running as your reference speakers and what you were comparing the AviaTrix to while writing that in the article.

One of the Statement builds perhaps?

[curt_c]

My current 'reference' speakers are the Uber-Exclamations! They are very similar to the Exclamations! design on my web site, but have been upgraded with an Accuton C92 mid, Hiquphon OW5 tweeters, and other enhancements.

It's hard to beat an Accton for clean midrange performance...

C

[ckmoore]

Why do I feel like I have been cheated on?

Curt has been talking up how to make the best of your Pontiac... all the while he is driving a Bugatti...

I kid....

Curt, do you have any plans to post the Exclamations upgrade?

[curt_c]

I have no issues with releasing the design, but with the difficulty of constructing the sphere's, I don't think anyone has ever attempted to build them. The crossover topology and enclosure are very similar to the Exclamations, however.

C

[lamski]

My current 'reference' speakers are the Uber-Exclamations! They are very similar to the Exclamations! design on my web site, but have been upgraded with an Accuton C92 mid, Hiquphon OW5 tweeters, and other enhancements.

It's hard to beat an Accton for clean midrange performance...

C

I did see those Exclamations on your site... Those are unreal... Simply amazing. Im not ready to attempt anything that advanced yet.


Maybe this has already been covered but I'm also curious as to why you chose to use the ND drivers and not the RS drivers for the AviaTrix? Just to try something new?

Seeing as you have extensive experience with both drivers can you comment on the sonic signature differences and similarities in the ND and RS series considering they are both top notch Dayton aluminum drivers at similar price points?

[jszmgpolk]

Anyone had any issues with the drivers popping. At higher volumes i notice this and I am using the receivers hp filter. I have played with this at different x-over points and the issue is still there. Any ideas.

[dougjohnson]

I have no issues with releasing the design, but with the difficulty of constructing the sphere's...
C

Just out of curiosity, how are the spheres built?
Thanks,
Doug

[LoveDoctor]

Anyone had any issues with the drivers popping. At higher volumes i notice this and I am using the receivers hp filter. I have played with this at different x-over points and the issue is still there. Any ideas.

I built a set a few months ago and haven't had any issues. Have you checked all your connectors and solder points? Could be a bad driver. Can you locate the popping to a specific speaker and/or driver?

[jszmgpolk]

It is a mid-bass driver in one of the towers. I checked everything before and checked connections again. Might be a little light on the stuffing. I may add some to see if this helps. These are considered 8 ohm speakers right. My amp has a setting for 4 or 8. Just curious.

[DIYNut42]

It is a mid-bass driver in one of the towers. I checked everything before and checked connections again. Might be a little light on the stuffing. I may add some to see if this helps. These are considered 8 ohm speakers right. My amp has a setting for 4 or 8. Just curious.

If it's not the connections or anything you might check to see if the mids are screwed down tight. The frame may be slapping against the baffle a smidge if one is a little loose. Also I believe these are considered a 6 ohm speaker. What kind of reciever or amp are you using?

[curt_c]

Just out of curiosity, how are the spheres built?
Thanks,
Doug

With great care, large amounts of MDF, and special tooling designed by Wayne himself. He'd prefer not to divulge the exact methodology...

C

[curt_c]

It is a mid-bass driver in one of the towers. I checked everything before and checked connections again. Might be a little light on the stuffing. I may add some to see if this helps. These are considered 8 ohm speakers right. My amp has a setting for 4 or 8. Just curious.

I've not had any of my AviaTrix designs pop even at very high SPL levels. Sounds to me like a defective driver. Just call PE and get a warranty replacement.

C

[jszmgpolk]

Contacted PE and they are sending a replacement driver. Only problem is they are back ordered til mid December.

What is the best practice for stuffing the towers. I received a 5 lb. bag of stuffing and its very hard to determine 1 lb. for each tower. How have you guys been doing this.

Also I am using the flared ports. Is the measurement from tip to tip or is it the actual inner tube.

[grcassidy]

I used kitchen scales. I suspect the more experienced builders would just have a feel for how much to use?

Cheers
Gary.

[jszmgpolk]

Good idea. Thanks

[ckmoore]

Contacted PE and they are sending a replacement driver. Only problem is they are back ordered til mid December.


Out of stock again.... :rolleyes:

[dougjohnson]

With great care, large amounts of MDF, and special tooling designed by Wayne himself. He'd prefer not to divulge the exact methodology...

C

That's enough to suggest an approach.
Thanks,
Doug

[curt_c]

What is the best practice for stuffing the towers. I received a 5 lb. bag of stuffing and its very hard to determine 1 lb. for each tower. How have you guys been doing this.

Also I am using the flared ports. Is the measurement from tip to tip or is it the actual inner tube.

The specified port length includes the flares.

My take on Stuffing:

Stuffing is like adding spices to your stew. Too much or not enough are almost always detrimental, but the range of ‘just right’ is broad and dependent on the tastes of the individual and in the case of speakers, the room and the speaker’s position in the room.

I don’t measure stuffing, but generally I:

[A] Start out with two equal piles on the floor that I guess to be near the correct amount. I always assume less is more, so I attempt to err on the light side.

[B] Stuff the lines leaving room behind the drivers and space around the port or terminus.

[C] Assemble the speakers and Listen to lots of varied musical genera. I prefer acoustic sources such as vocals or acoustic instruments as one knows how it is supposed to sound. Female vocals are very good for spotting standing wave issues. Boomy bass can be ameliorated by additional stuffing, or changing the position of the speaker in the room. ie: further from the walls.

[D] If no audible issues are demonstrated, sit back and enjoy. If issues with standing waves or boomy bass are still observed, I return to [A] above with a two smaller equal amounts and repeat.

[E] If the bass sounds thin, or the midrange sounds lifeless, remove equal amounts from the speakers and proceed as above until the response is optimal.

Don’t be afraid to experiment with variable stuffing density or differing materials. I’ve often used increased stuffing density near the middle of the line and less at the ends to obtain the best compromise. I’ve also mixed materials such as poly and foam, as the different density gradients may partially break up the line into shorter segments. –Also the foam is more likely to stay in place in the line, and can preclude inadvertent stuffing movement.

C

[dallas8338]

Hi everyone- great thread with tons of information; I'm really learning a lot. I built the TriTrix kit that PE offers and I am enjoying those in my basement. I am looking to scale out my home theater so I am giving these AviaTrix some serious thought. My question is has anybody compared these to the Pioneer towers (SP-FS51-LR) that Best Buy carries? Before everyone laughs, please note that they were designed by Andrew Jones of TAD fame. AVS has a 15 page thread about them, comparing them to Polks and Energy that cost much, much more.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1278774

I know the Pioneer towers are less efficent and might require a more powerful amp, but they are also 2.5 way from what I can tell...

[fastbike1]

Comparing to Polks and Energys doesn't buy a lot of cred in these parts. Also while the folks with the popular designs don't make a living designing speakers, they are hardly amateurs with their results.

While I haven't heard the Pios, I'll go out on a limb and say I'd be surprised if Best Buy had anything that sounded better than many of the designs you can find on this board.

Includes Magnolia. Have yet to listen to a Martin Logan that didn't fatigue me within 10 minutes and have poor off axis performance. I think the Vienna's are better, but nowhere near worth the money. I just compared my build of the Overnight Sensation MTMs to Vienna Accoustic Haydn's and didn't find the Haydns to be significantly (an order of magnitude, like the price difference) better.

[jszmgpolk]

Stuff the lines leaving room behind the drivers and space around the port or terminus.

Thanks curt for your take on the stuffing of the cabinet. I do have a question. In the drawing it shows no stuffing on the lower portion of the cabinet. Should stuffing be in the lower portion of the cabinet or just the upper 2/3.

[waynew]

Stuff the lines leaving room behind the drivers and space around the port or terminus.

Thanks curt for your take on the stuffing of the cabinet. I do have a question. In the drawing it shows no stuffing on the lower portion of the cabinet. Should stuffing be in the lower portion of the cabinet or just the upper 1/3.

You may want to stay with the middle a bit light and heavier towards the lower third, leaving the an area behind the drivers open and the area around the port open. It doesn't hurt to get some down around the bottom (underneath the port), but again, try to keep the port clear. It won't hurt to put some up above the drivers towards the top of the cabinet.
And now, I will completely contradict myself. You can also use the stuffing from the middle down to the port, going from denser at the middle to lighter towards the port. Curt's analogy about seasoning the stew holds true for stuffing. Try the method he indicated with about a pound per cabinet and see how it sounds in your room. If you think that the vocals sound stifled, pull some out...if they sound boomy, put more in. Also, varying the location can make positive/negative impacts. One rule that I always follow - keep the stuffing away from the driver by at least an inch or two.

WayneW

[jszmgpolk]

What crossover point should i set my receiver for the F/L and center. Audyssey set all to full band and I am having serious popping issues at high spl. It started with the left speaker and now the center is doing this. I changed the xover setting to 40 hertz and this helped. I thought the xover for the speakers would limit the lower freq.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[curt_c]

Which version of the AviaTrix did you build? The sealed or the MLTL?

With most every speaker, the crossover is only for ‘crossing over’ from the woofer to the tweeter. A separate high pass filter would be required to limit the woofers low frequency reproduction. Due to the frequencies involved, and the size and cost of the passive components, this is best done at the pre amp / line level stage.

I’ve ran the AviaTrix very loud, nearly maxing out my 100 wpc amp and never had any popping issues with the woofer. Their published Xlim, as well as the natural limitation of the spider suggest it should be very difficult to bottom out the drivers.

That said: Try moving the receiver HP up to 80 Hz and see if the popping goes away.

Keep me informed..

C

[jszmgpolk]

Which version of the AviaTrix did you build? The sealed or the MLTL?

With most every speaker, the crossover is only for ‘crossing over’ from the woofer to the tweeter. A separate high pass filter would be required to limit the woofers low frequency reproduction. Due to the frequencies involved, and the size and cost of the passive components, this is best done at the pre amp / line level stage.

I’ve ran the AviaTrix very loud, nearly maxing out my 100 wpc amp and never had any popping issues with the woofer. Their published Xlim, as well as the natural limitation of the spider suggest it should be very difficult to bottom out the drivers.

That said: Try moving the receiver HP up to 80 Hz and see if the popping goes away.

Keep me informed..

C
The towers are ported and the center is sealed. So do you suggest hp to be set at 80 for the ported towers as well as the center. I am using Onkyo 805 which is 130w. I dont even get close to max volume when the popping starts. Like I said it started in just one tower and the other was not and is still not doing it. The center started today. Maybe I was expecting too much from the towers in the lower end and have the hp set too low.

[waynew]

Are you listening to this really loud? Curt and I cranked them up really high and never heard anything like this, and have you double checked the cross-overs?

WayneW

[jszmgpolk]

I have and I well check them again. Maybe the crossover on my receiver was set to low. Yes this was loud but I cant say for sure what the spl was but on my receiver level it was at -6db.

[jszmgpolk]

What do you suggest I cross the towers and center @ 40,60,or 80 hertz. As I said earlier audyssey set them to full band.

[waynew]

Let me ask you this:

If your Receiver was at -6, how high does it go to? Is it the kind that just goes to 0 or does it go up into the + range. If it doesn't go past 0, you have it going way tooooo louuuuuuud. You were probably clipping your amp, and sending a lot of distortion to the drivers.

If you like it that loud, you are going to need something much, much bigger to get you to the SPL that you want.

WayneW

[jszmgpolk]

It goes to +18 I believe. I had a set of Polk rti38s and never had this problem at that level.

[curt_c]

What do you suggest I cross the towers and center @ 40,60,or 80 hertz. As I said earlier audyssey set them to full band.

I'm still thinking you have a defective driver or 2.

When the popping occurs how far is the cone moving in? If it is an excursion issue, setting the HP filter to 80 Hz should limit the excursion and eliminate the popping.

C

[jszmgpolk]

Well its hard to tell exactly because the pop is scary loud and I turn it down immediately. The driver is moving a good bit though. I will play around with the settings tomorrow and see whats happening.

One thing as I have mentioned before this started in one tower and is now in the center. Dont know what happened maybe a bad batch of drivers, but I wonder if PE will send multiple drivers.

[waynew]

How old is the receiver. I am wondering if it is in the receiver maybe. You might hook up some old speakers and run them up to see if they pop as well.

WayneW

[jszmgpolk]

Two years old. I had rti38s and did not have this issue at this listening level. I dont think its the receiver. The pops are at hard bass points, like in Iron Man 2 when he drops from the plane to the Expo and fireworks are going off. Also in music during bass notes.

I dont expect these to pound my chest or rattle windows, I just never had this kind of a pop even though my polks would hit excursion at the same levels.

[petethekiller]

I wonder if he has a bad driver?

[waynew]

Two years old. I had rti38s and did not have this issue at this listening level. I dont think its the receiver. The pops are at hard bass points, like in Iron Man 2 when he drops from the plane to the Expo and fireworks are going off. Also in music during bass notes.

I dont expect these to pound my chest or rattle windows, I just never had this kind of a pop even though my polks would hit excursion at the same levels.

Hmmmm. Sounds like bad drivers. Seems weird to me that you would get a couple of them, but maybe you got a bad batch or something.

[jszmgpolk]

Well with more listening I am still having these issues. I have narrowed it down to the center and left tower. When this started it was only in the left tower. I took them out to finish the cabinet and marked them so I wouldnt get them mixed up but maybe I did. PE is out of stock on the drivers but I will see if they will send two when they are stocked

[curt_c]

I finished up the AviaTrix MT this afternoon, and took them on a test drive. Same design, same drivers, just one less...

My 100 wpc Arcam FMJ A32 shows volume up to 0 dB. I ran it up to -6 dB using the AviaTrix MT, and while the amplifier was starting to hit the supply rails, the ND140's never did anything unusual, only play loud.

There are limitations on what can be expected from a 5.25" driver with a 4mm Xmax, but I didn't hear any today. -However, I was playing music, and not videos with sub sonic special effects...

C

[brianbunge]

I finished up the AviaTrix MT this afternoon, and took them on a test drive. Same design, same drivers, just one less...
C

So we can expect you to update the other thread soon? ;)

[bmaupin]

My 100 wpc Arcam FMJ A32 shows volume up to 0 dB. I ran it up to -6 dB using the AviaTrix MT, and while the amplifier was starting to hit the supply rails, the ND140's never did anything unusual, only play loud.

I am surprised that you cannot get them to pop. With my ND140-8 MT I am able to get them to "pop" pretty easily, but playing pretty loud. I have a 120W/ch NAD 216 amplifier. Mine are ported in 9L, but I tried the passive assist sealed and they popped even easier - and with less bass. I think that the "popping" is the voice coil hitting the back of the motor.

[jszmgpolk]

Wow! I was beginning to think this was just an isolated issue and I was the only one with this problem. Well I guess this is good to know. I'm not expecting a whole lot just for them to play at levels I was accustomed to. I still think I do have maybed 2 bad drivers since one of the towers does not pop at all.

These do sound very good with all forms of dialogue and I am pleased. Again Curt thanks for an awesome design.

[curt_c]

I am surprised that you cannot get them to pop. With my ND140-8 MT I am able to get them to "pop" pretty easily, but playing pretty loud. I have a 120W/ch NAD 216 amplifier. Mine are ported in 9L, but I tried the passive assist sealed and they popped even easier - and with less bass. I think that the "popping" is the voice coil hitting the back of the motor.

I agree, it sounds like the former is hitting the back plate. A little quick calculation indicates at 120 watts, the sealed AviaTrx would be hitting SPL's around 110 dB and excursions over 11 mm. -Just slightly out of the specification limitations. :eek:

C

[Brent_S]

Two years old. I had rti38s and did not have this issue at this listening level. I dont think its the receiver. The pops are at hard bass points, like in Iron Man 2 when he drops from the plane to the Expo and fireworks are going off. Also in music during bass notes.

I dont expect these to pound my chest or rattle windows, I just never had this kind of a pop even though my polks would hit excursion at the same levels.

Were you using bass management with your RTI38s? If so, apples and orange comparison. The RTi38s are also a legitimate 89dB/1w/1m speaker, not sure about the AviaTrix. The same MV setting for two different speakers is meaningless if they have different efficiencies (unless calibrated to a known standard).

The 805 is a beast of a receiver. While spec'd at 130 wpc, Home Theater Mag bench tested one at 162x5 into 8 ohms...that's all 5 channels driven simultaneously. In two channel mode, it's capable of 182wpc@8, 328wpc@4.

Assuming you've run Audyssey calibration, MV @ -6 means you're listening at 6dB below THX/Dolby Reference level = LOUD (by most people's standards). Add in Audyssey trying to EQ flat down to below 20hz on a soundtrack that has single digit frequencies at fairly high level and defective or not, I'd expect some complaints from 5.25" drivers.

Iron Man 2 is bass demo worthy. I'm not sure I would feel comfortable trying to push my pair of 315HFs (ported, 3.5 ft^3/20Hz) to -6 after watching at -15. I use an 805 as a processor only for the 5 mains (RTi38s) with xover at 80Hz.

BTW, Audyssey doesn't set the xover frequency, it simply measure each speaker's frequency response. Onkyo made the decision to set any speaker to full range that Audyssey said had an f3 lower than 80hz. Audyssey has been lobbying their licensees to move the decision point down to 40Hz, but I don't know how successful they've been.

-Brent

[petethekiller]

I just got my flared ports in today and am getting ready to install them in my towers...Does it matter much if I mount them on the front or back side of the enclosure? These will be near wall if that makes a difference.

thanks

Pete

[curt_c]

As long as your keep the port height the same from the bottom of the enclosure, it won't matter if they are front or rear ported. You will have to leave 4" to 6" between the speaker and front wall if back porting...

C

[jszmgpolk]

Thanks Brent for the detailed info. I since have read and learned alot about audyssey and proper setup. I was setting the crossover too low obviously..... I have since set all to 80 hz. and have not had any issues since. Thanks to all for your help and to Curt for a great design, truly an outstanding speaker.

[waynew]

You may find, as my buddy did, that Audyssey is not yet up to par. He turned it off and has been very happy with the results since. Nothing replaces the human ear as the definitive judge of sound!!!!


Glad to hear that your popping will no longer be a problem.


WayneW

[petethekiller]

I forgot to ask in regards to the port length...was the 6 inch length measured from mouth to mouth of each flare opening or the throat? Thank you

[curt_c]

That's the total length including flares.

C

[KLR]

I just finished a pair. They sound great. These will be used for LCR duty in my classroom. Thanks Curt and Wayne for sharing your design!

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp330/305178/Speakers-1.jpg


I still need to finish the center channel, but here's what it will look like: :D



http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp330/305178/SpeakersRotate.jpg

[curt_c]

Ha Ha! I like your center channnel pic.

Glad you are enjoying them.

C