New Design: The AviaTrix

[curt_c]

A new kit coming from the good folks at PE: The AviaTrix

These have been running in my system for the last month, getting final voicing tweaks. No pictures yet, as they are still in bare MDF, but you can get an idea of their size from the drawing below. A little taller than the TriTrix, and a little less deep. A little more svelte looking, and perhaps a bit higher SAF as well.

High SPL and good low frequency extension are generally mutually exclusive in designs utilizing 5” drivers. -But not in this case: An f3 of 40 Hz and an f6 of 30 Hz can be expected while the design models up to 107 dB of SPL without abusing the published Xmax too much. -And yes, that is a 3” flared port on the front, which is required to keep the port velocity reasonable.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7251&stc=1&d=1267643173

The tweeter is the new RS28F, and an impressive sounding tweeter it is. Forget the fact they have the capacity to cross very low or exhibit class leading distortion plots. Forget the great looks, fit and finish. Like a prima ballerina, they appear to my old ears to navigate the most complex passages with nary a misstep. PE and Usher have come up with something special here. I’ll be using this tweeter again.

The ND140-8 woofer is also new, and sets the Dayton performance bar higher in what I’d call the high value driver class. While I didn’t explore the 20 mm of Xlim in any great depth, I can say that a pair of these can play very clean, very loud, and very low in the enclosure below. When overdriven, the woofers appear to be suspension limited, and do not bottom out on the back plate, making them more likely to survive power abuse or the occasional explosion, train wreck, gun shots, etc. when watching DVDs at near realistic levels.

Like any high value driver, it has a couple of attributes that separate it from its high dollar cost-is-no-object brethren. The Qts is on the high side, and in most cases will limit its use to sealed enclosures. While the frame is adequate, and allows flush mounting without cutting a rebate, I think this driver deserves a cast aluminum frame. -But the ease of mounting will be a boon for many, and properly mounted, I heard no frame resonance issues. During early trials, I found the ND140 sounds quite good used full range, with its sins being those of omission. It could be easily used for a nearfield monitor or a full ranger with no or a very minimalist crossover.

While the ML-TL enclosure appears to be a simple vented floorstander, the enclosure internal height was carefully chosen so the quarter wave resonance was a bit higher in frequency than the port. This helped augment the response sag in what would otherwise have been an extended bass shelf alignment. This resulted in a nice slow inital roll off below 100 Hz of about 3 dB / octave until shortly before the f6 at 30 Hz, where it drops off the cliff, and reverts to the expected vented response rolloff.

The crossover: The RS28F is crossed roughly 4th order acoustic at 1000 Hz. and an overlapped 6th order acoustic transfer function on the woofer, which sum in phase quadrature. Like the TriTrix, it is a very simple network, with only 6 elements, -and two of them are resistors. Why did I cross so low in a floorstanding design? -Because I’m lazy, and when Wayne and I design the matching center channel, surrounds, etc., I won’t have to reinvent the crossover. The current topology provides a nice wide horizontal off-axis response when turned on its side.

AviaTrix Horizontal off Axis measurements:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7250&stc=1&d=1267642758
The response dip around 3K is a tweeter diffraction artifact caused by the close proximity of the midwoofers. I'll be investigating this further to see what can be done about it, or if it fills in in the vertical plane. -Certainly during auditioning, it isn't all that noticeable.

EDIT: Further measurements indicate the dip at 3K is a non-issue. It fills in completely at 6 feet and beyond when measured on the design axis.

How do they sound? Clean is the word that comes to mind. -Very clean and balanced from top to bottom with surprisingly deep bass. There is no heavy hand at work here, but a smooth and seductive, airy sound, hence the feminine moniker. Tribal wisdom says a high Q driver in a vented design will end up sounding boomy, but not in this case. The transmission line configuration, the tuning, and the stuffing all seem to ameliorate any potential boom quite nicely. –Note on the impedance plot how the resonance is damped.

Those that prefer the full, lush sound of a good ol’ paper driver woofer may find the bass and lower midrange a little too clean and articulate for their tastes, but I think many will find the sound quite enjoyable. Extended listening sessions, some at high SPL’s, have not resulted in any fatigue.

In my opinion, this design augments, rather than replaces the TriTrix design. A little more upscale, with a little more expense attached, and a slightly different sound.

For the extra $$$, the AviTrix will play lower and louder than the TriTrix. Once the crossover design is finalized, I understand there will be kit offerings from PE similar to the TriTrix designs.

C

[evilskillit]

I'm at work and haven't even had a chance to read this whole thing yet, but let me be one of the first to saw... WOO NEW DESIGN FROM CURT! And a kit too. Kudos to you sir for making the hobby a bit better for all of us.

Neat, I finally got a chance to read it all. Looks pretty juicy. Wonder what the kit options and prices will be. Looks like a great alternative for people who want something like the Tritrix but a but "more" in every way but don't want to spend a lot more. If I wasn't running out of space for speakers I'd be all over a pair.

[MrkCrwly]

Congrats. Glad to see PE adding more kits. This is obviously a sign that the TriTrix kit has been a commercial success. I hope PE will see fit to add even more "high value" kits.

[dlneubec]

Very Nice, Curt! I can't wait to hear them. People are going to want to avoid the budget class now, however.;)

[---k---]

Curt,
I thought you were going to let CJD and I beat you to publish a design. ;)

Looks like a nice design. I think I may steel your box design as an option! :)

[Dirk]

So! Who's gonna have a pair at InDIYana? :D

[Jim Holtz]

Another fine job from our resident wizards! VERY nice! :D

Jim

[Mark65]

Wow! Looks like another winner, for sure! And that tweeter looks to be the BOMB!:cool: 1kHz xpt? Me likey!:D


Can't wait to see the finished product!


Mark

[kornphlake]

These look like what I was wanting the Tritrix to be, which is to say I'm not ashamed of the Tritrix I built at all, but I had a few more dollars and wanted something with a little taller cabinet and a little more sound. I'd have built the Aviatrix first if they'd been available, there's a decent chance I may build them as a second set of speakers if the price for the kit is right around $200.

[scottsehlin]

Very nice looking design Curt.

Ever since the ND-140's came out, I have been tempted to pick up a couple to see how they would drop into the "Matrix" design from last year's Iowa gathering. My initial thought is that they are about the only driver I've seen that could improve the bass capability vs. the existing RS-150T's (which sound very good as long as you keep SPL down to a reasonable level) without requiring a wider cabinet.

[curt_c]

Curt,
I thought you were going to let CJD and I beat you to publish a design. ;)

Looks like a nice design. I think I may steel your box design as an option! :)

Ryan, at the rate you and Chris normally whip out designs I was SURE you'd be done before I received permission to let the cat out of the bag. I’m sure all will be impressed with Sietecerocero Project design as well.

I see no issue with you ‘stealing’ the enclosure for your design. The AviaTrix center and surrounds will probably resemble your enclosures as well. –Only so many ways to skin that cat…


Very Nice, Curt! I can't wait to hear them. People are going to want to avoid the budget class now, however.;)
Yes! -After the failure of the Mavericks to make it into the budget category last year at Iowa, this year the AviaTrix comes in under budget! :D

Thanks Dan!

A rough calculation for the drivers and crossover bits comes up to about $250.00 at PE's normal pricing. The flared ports add another $25 to $35 bucks, so I figure maybe $300.00 + MDF all together for a pair without the kit pricing.

C

[mzisserson]

Curt, looks wonderful!

As you know I have been using the ND-105, and if the ND140 is 1/2 as good (which I am sure it is), with you driving the ship I am sure these will actually be a world class speaker.

Perhaps people will believe these can reach amazingly low now!!! :D

[curt_c]

Very nice looking design Curt.

Ever since the ND-140's came out, I have been tempted to pick up a couple to see how they would drop into the "Matrix" design from last year's Iowa gathering. My initial thought is that they are about the only driver I've seen that could improve the bass capability vs. the existing RS-150T's (which sound very good as long as you keep SPL down to a reasonable level) without requiring a wider cabinet.

Thanks Scott,

Yes, I suspect there will be a lot of comparisons between the ND-140 and the RS150's. The ND's can provide the bass is you have the enclosure volume for them. The RS drivers get the nod for their cast frames.

C

[martyh]

Yes! -After the failure of the Mavericks to make it into the budget category last year at Iowa, this year the AviaTrix comes in under budget!


great....juuuuuussst great.

Now what in the heck are the rest of us gonna do, Curt?

Well, I could just start my own DIY event (DIY Little Chute), call it 'The Biggest Speakerbuilders Event in My Mind' and declare myself the winner, just like that Russian figureskater dude.

All kidding aside, Congratulations Curt!

[Paul K.]

Looks pretty good, Curt, and I'm sure glad the speakers I'm currently building won't end up in the Budget Class at Iowa!
Paul

[jacobwayne154]

Hoooowee Overnight Sensations, tritrix, unisounds, and now these. I think you guys a trying to get me fired (put in the dog house). Now I have to figure these into into the budget. There has to be a medication for this illness.

[gowa]

It looks to me like the budget class 'Gauntlet' has been thrown. Sorry, I just renamed your speaker.

[Dirk]

Now I have to figure these into into the budget. There has to be a medication for this illness.

Sure, it's called "prioritization". Cut back on non-essentials, like cable, heat, dining out & medical treatment. Keep the electricity; you'll need that. Don't sell the car, either, unless you find someone that will deliver MDF.


Yes! -After the failure of the Mavericks to make it into the budget category last year at Iowa...

Oh WOE IS CURT! The Mavericks in budget would have been a gun at a knife fight.

[curt_c]

Oh WOE IS CURT! The Mavericks in budget would have been a gun at a knife fight.

If I just wouldn't have had to buy those $8 tweeters, I'd have made it!


It looks to me like the budget class 'Gauntlet' has been thrown. Sorry, I just renamed your speaker.

I would have named them The Ariels but Lynn Olsen beat me to it. :D



Thanks guys, but don’t forget that I’m just half of the team. Without Wayne’s expert cabinet building and voicing skills, this would be some ho-hum, also ran design. No matter how close I think I get them, Wayne always can get them better. My highest complement from him to date is:
(After listening to a design for 5 minutes.) “Well, my ears aren’t burning yet.”

You may laugh, but this is a long way from the first time Wayne came over to listen to one of my creations. It was a nice little 2 way with a SS tweeter and a peerless CSX 5”, but having recently read dlr’s article in Speakerbuilder on felt treatments, I’d gone way overboard with the felt. Wayne was his typical genteel self, but I know he was thinking: “Whoa! These things sound like they’re covered in dirty gym socks.” After all the felt came off, the veil had indeed been lifted. –I never doubted his abilities again…

C

[Wolf]

Certainly looks viable! Nice job, dudes.
I'm glad I'm gonna be out in the 'Unlimited' category now...unless I'm allowed a second or third entry.
Later,
Wolf

[DS-21]

On a bang-for-the-buck basis, an MTM like this one with two of the Aura drivers doing midrange-down will be hard for anyone to beat. Relatively easy to work with, and it's too bad everyone doesn't use their NRT motors.

[DougP]

Looking good Curt. You and Wayne turn out some great stuff. I'm glad you are in the budget class. With everyone else avoiding it I just might score a second place;)

Doug

[Paul Carmody]

Wow, some really ingenious ideas going on here: the super-low crossover point, the creative TL tuning. I like it! :) I look forward to hearing them.
Shame about those pincushion frames. :(

[LouC]

Considering how far you have pushed the limits of those drivers, and how long you spent torturing them into submission, you should have called them the DominaTrix! :D
You might have created a whole new target market for DIY speakers...

[DoubleTap]

During early trials, I found the ND140 sounds quite good used full range, with its sins being those of omission. It could be easily used for a nearfield monitor or a full ranger with no or a very minimalist crossover.

You know, that makes sense looking at the published FR data for the ND105. There's no +20db cone breakup that obviously would sound like audible waterboarding if used full-range ... instead the max amplitude is pretty flat with just a few valleys. I keep thinking about just buying a stack of ND105's and making a full-range array with no filter for Home Theater and let the receiver Audyssey handle some EQ. I can live with a bit of a depression in the top couple octaves as long as there's no spot where it turns harsh. Your observation about the 140 in that respect is appreciated, and tells me that the 105 could seve my purpose well, no music would ever be played on this system - I just want something tall and thin that pumps out plenty of volume while remaining relatively composed.

[gowa]

Considering how far you have pushed the limits of those drivers, and how long you spent torturing them into submission, you should have called them the DominaTrix! :D
You might have created a whole new target market for DIY speakers...


Good one Lou! LOL!

[Dirk]

I just want something tall and thin that pumps out plenty of volume while remaining relatively composed.

You want David Bowie?

http://www.defmshop.com/uploads/Z3/st/Z3stnw8xCtNIBU9aOs-GLA/david_bowie_10.jpg

[curt_c]

Considering how far you have pushed the limits of those drivers, and how long you spent torturing them into submission, you should have called them the DominaTrix! :D
You might have created a whole new target market for DIY speakers...

Ooh! I like it! Can I have it Lou? :D

Jim Holtz and I have been trading emails about a 3 way design collaboration using the SB29NRX75-6 woofer but different mids and tweeters. I think he’s looking at the SB15 and the Discovery D2608/9130, (HDS) while I was considering the 18W8531G and a, as yet to be selected, tweeter. Anyway I think the DominaTrix name is perfect for a big 3-way.

C

[DoubleTap]

You want David Bowie?

http://www.defmshop.com/uploads/Z3/st/Z3stnw8xCtNIBU9aOs-GLA/david_bowie_10.jpg

Ha, now that's funny!

[Mark65]

Considering how far you have pushed the limits of those drivers, and how long you spent torturing them into submission, you should have called them the DominaTrix! :D
You might have created a whole new target market for DIY speakers...


ARRRGGHHHH!!!


Nobody will believe it, but I thought of that about an hour before you posted it!:eek:


AND, I was thinking of the next iteration, a big three-way, as Curt posted later!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

Please excuse me, all, while I gnash my teeth, tear my hair out over a lost opportunity...:mad:


Mark

[LouC]

Ooh! I like it! Can I have it Lou? :D

:mad:NO! I shall decide when you will get what you deserve!
.... err sorry just slipped into character



Jim Holtz and I have been trading emails about a 3 way design collaboration using the SB29NRX75-6 woofer but different mids and tweeters. I think he’s looking at the SB15 and the Discovery D2608/9130, (HDS) while I was considering the 18W8531G and a, as yet to be selected, tweeter. Anyway I think the DominaTrix name is perfect for a big 3-way.

C

It's your's. Maybe you can trademark the name. Then, we could do a reality TV show like Judge Judy, where we bring all the pretenders & imitators to trial to see if they are "worthy" to use the name ....:cool:

Just promise me the DominaTrix will include leather, latex, or spikes in the cabinet decor. ;)

[evilskillit]

Well put spikes on the bottom and do a Sonus Faber style baffle wrapped in leather with the sides painted... Now where do you work the latex in? I guess you could port it and include a ball-gag for when they want to listen to them sealed? Hrm, I may be getting out of hand.

[exojam]

Curt-Wayne,

Very nice as always.

I cannot wait to see the surrounds you two come up with for these.

James

[curt_c]

Here's a quick HD plot I shot today...
Outside of that broad rise in the 3rd harmonic around 500 Hz, it looks as clean as they sound. The other speaker HD plot (not shown) was almost identical, but had a couple of distortion spikes due to the ND140 frames buzzing on the front baffle. These drivers really deserve a cast frame.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7361&stc=1&d=1267934971
And a measured response and impedance plots...
The response was measured in room with a relatively long gating of 21 mS to show some of the lower frequency detail. But picks up some room reflections so it looks a bit rough. 1/12 octave smoothing applied. The dip at 400 Hz is the floor dip, and the one at 120 Hz is a room mode.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7378&stc=1&d=1267936822
The impedance looks pretty decent for an MTM. The impedance minima of 4.2 ohms at 150 Hz is purely resistive, and the worst amplifier load combination of -40 degrees is at 8 ohms. All in all, I'd call this a 6 ohm impedance, but I doubt any decent HT receiver will have issues driving it.

C

[Dirk]

And a measured response and impedance plots...
The response was measured in room with a relatively long gating of 21 mS to show some of the lower frequency detail. But picks up some room reflections so it looks a bit rough. 1/12 octave smoothing applied. The dip at 400 Hz is the floor dip, and the one at 120 Hz is a room mode.


Curt, I'm obsessed lately with the measurement process. You did 21ms @ 1m? How far from the room boundaries?

[curt_c]

Obsession is a good thing in some cases, especially when most of us have to live with measurement limitations anyway.

The room is roughly 16’ x 30’ x 9’, so really anything longer than a 7 mS gate is going to show some reflections. However, I wanted to look at the response down to around 100 Hz, -and I wasn’t going to use these for crossover design, -just show and tell.

I set the speaker up about 8 ft from side walls, and since it was a floor stander, it was more or less centered between the floor and ceiling. I threw a pile of foam on the floor to soak up some of the floor bounce. Other than the fact that I do have some treatments on the walls, and the ceiling is open and has 6” fiberglass batts between the joists, that’s all I did. JustMLS doesn’t give any options for windowing. I believe it emulates a hanning function.

C

[lunchmoney]

Must.... see.... pix.... ARRRRGH!

[waynew]

Lunch,

No pictures until they get some decent clothes on! Curt and I must keep up the illusion that all of our speakers burst forth from the aether fully finished in various hardwoods and clear coats. I hope to get some finish work done on them in a week or two.


Regards,
WayneW

[dlneubec]

You have it backwards Wayne. You have to show them naked, warts and all. That way folks are even more amazed at the transformation to the stunning finish! ;)

[HuskerNation]

A new kit coming from the good folks at PE: The AviaTrix

These have been running in my system for the last month, getting final voicing tweaks. No pictures yet, as they are still in bare MDF, but you can get an idea of their size from the drawing below. A little taller than the TriTrix, and a little less deep. A little more svelte looking, and perhaps a bit higher SAF as well.

High SPL and good low frequency extension are generally mutually exclusive in designs utilizing 5” drivers. -But not in this case: An f3 of 40 Hz and an f6 of 30 Hz can be expected while the design models up to 107 dB of SPL without abusing the published Xmax too much. -And yes, that is a 3” flared port on the front, which is required to keep the port velocity reasonable.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7251&stc=1&d=1267643173

The tweeter is the new RS28F, and an impressive sounding tweeter it is. Forget the fact they have the capacity to cross very low or exhibit class leading distortion plots. Forget the great looks, fit and finish. Like a prima ballerina, they appear to my old ears to navigate the most complex passages with nary a misstep. PE and Usher have come up with something special here. I’ll be using this tweeter again.

The ND140-8 woofer is also new, and sets the Dayton performance bar higher in what I’d call the high value driver class. While I didn’t explore the 20 mm of Xlim in any great depth, I can say that a pair of these can play very clean, very loud, and very low in the enclosure below. When overdriven, the woofers appear to be suspension limited, and do not bottom out on the back plate, making them more likely to survive power abuse or the occasional explosion, train wreck, gun shots, etc. when watching DVDs at near realistic levels.

Like any high value driver, it has a couple of attributes that separate it from its high dollar cost-is-no-object brethren. The Qts is on the high side, and in most cases will limit its use to sealed enclosures. While the frame is adequate, and allows flush mounting without cutting a rebate, I think this driver deserves a cast aluminum frame. -But the ease of mounting will be a boon for many, and properly mounted, I heard no frame resonance issues. During early trials, I found the ND140 sounds quite good used full range, with its sins being those of omission. It could be easily used for a nearfield monitor or a full ranger with no or a very minimalist crossover.

While the ML-TL enclosure appears to be a simple vented floorstander, the enclosure internal height was carefully chosen so the quarter wave resonance was a bit higher in frequency than the port. This helped augment the response sag in what would otherwise have been an extended bass shelf alignment. This resulted in a nice slow inital roll off below 100 Hz of about 3 dB / octave until shortly before the f6 at 30 Hz, where it drops off the cliff, and reverts to the expected vented response rolloff.

The crossover: The RS28F is crossed roughly 4th order acoustic at 1000 Hz. and an overlapped 6th order acoustic transfer function on the woofer, which sum in phase quadrature. Like the TriTrix, it is a very simple network, with only 6 elements, -and two of them are resistors. Why did I cross so low in a floorstanding design? -Because I’m lazy, and when Wayne and I design the matching center channel, surrounds, etc., I won’t have to reinvent the crossover. The current topology provides a nice wide horizontal off-axis response when turned on its side.

AviaTrix Horizontal off Axis measurements:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7250&stc=1&d=1267642758
The response dip around 2K is a tweeter diffraction artifact caused by the close proximity of the midwoofers. I'll be investigating this further to see what can be done about it, or if it fills in in the vertical plane. -Certainly during auditioning, it isn't all that noticeable.

How do they sound? Clean is the word that comes to mind. -Very clean and balanced from top to bottom with surprisingly deep bass. There is no heavy hand at work here, but a smooth and seductive, airy sound, hence the feminine moniker. Tribal wisdom says a high Q driver in a vented design will end up sounding boomy, but not in this case. The transmission line configuration, the tuning, and the stuffing all seem to ameliorate any potential boom quite nicely. –Note on the impedance plot how the resonance is damped.

Those that prefer the full, lush sound of a good ol’ paper driver woofer may find the bass and lower midrange a little too clean and articulate for their tastes, but I think many will find the sound quite enjoyable. Extended listening sessions, some at high SPL’s, have not resulted in any fatigue.

In my opinion, this design augments, rather than replaces the TriTrix design. A little more upscale, with a little more expense attached, and a slightly different sound.

For the extra $$$, the AviTrix will play lower and louder than the TriTrix. Once the crossover design is finalized, I understand there will be kit offerings from PE similar to the TriTrix designs.

C

man... the agony and the ecstasy....
You and Wayne (and PE deals) must hate HiVi.

Can't wait to see some of Wayne's finished enclosures.

-Will this be a PE cnc'd KNOCK DOWN kit and/or package deal like the RD?

[curt_c]

-Will this be a PE cnc'd KNOCK DOWN kit and/or package deal like the RD?

Its my understanding that The AviaTrix will be offered as 2 kits (w/ and w/o enclosure) like the TriTrix. Rumor has it there is an enclosure kit forthcoming for the sealed version of the TriTrix as well. (i.e. center, surrounds, etc.)

C

[skeeter99]

Curt, looking forward to seeing these come out and where PE prices them. I looked at your TriTrix first, then the Mini-Statements and realized those were above my current skill level so maybe this will be the design to get me into DIY :D

[curt_c]

Welcome Skeeter!

While I find this a very enjoyable and fulfilling hobby, I will warn you that it is quite addictive. Your odds of building ‘just one’ design, and then getting on with the rest of your life are very slim indeed… :D

I’m just the designer, so I have no knowledge, nor can I speculate as to what the kit prices will be. I can say that I designed the AviaTrix to be a very simple construction, and I’m certain your current skill set will be more than sufficient. Right now the crossover is back down to only 5 elements, so building the crossovers will be cake.

We're fortunate to have a great bunch of guys on this forum, and I’ll bet they will be more than willing to help you with cabinet construction techniques and hints.

C

[skeeter99]

Welcome Skeeter!

While I find this a very enjoyable and fulfilling hobby, I will warn you that it is quite addictive. Your odds of building ‘just one’ design, and then getting on with the rest of your life are very slim indeed… :D

I’m just the designer, so I have no knowledge, nor can I speculate as to what the kit prices will be. I can say that I designed the AviaTrix to be a very simple construction, and I’m certain your current skill set will be more than sufficient. Right now the crossover is back down to only 5 elements, so building the crossovers will be cake.

We're fortunate to have a great bunch of guys on this forum, and I’ll bet they will be more than willing to help you with cabinet construction techniques and hints.

C

Curt,

Oh yes, I know how addicting just the hobby is so I'm looking forward to learning more and seeing what DIY can do! Here is a thread outlining what I've gone through (except missing a few stages but basically all there) during the last 3 years: http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=30132

I look forward to seeing how these come out in kit form and seeing which build I will start with!

Thank you for your hard work, its great to see so much passion and enthusiasm without all the drama that surrounds so many other sites sometimes :)

Scott

[LoveDoctor]

Curt, I know this is still a young design, but any tentative plans to make cabinet variations ala the TriTrix TL-Ported-Sealed family? I'm sure there will be plenty of demand for smaller speakers that would be a step up from the TriTrixes (which I built and thoroughly enjoy).

Thanks again for all your great work!

[curt_c]

Yes, I was working on plans today for a small MTM for center channel, surrounds, or small mains. We will have some test boxes built up in the next couple of weeks. Probably TriTrix sized at about 15 liters, and an f6 of around 50 Hz.

C

[HuskerNation]

...had to add this....

As they would of said on Seinfeld, Curt and Wayne are anti-HiVi ites... lol olo lol :eek:

[curt_c]

...had to add this....

As they would of said on Seinfeld, Curt and Wayne are anti-HiVi ites... lol olo lol :eek:

What's up with the Hi-Vi posts?
We've built a design using the Hi-Vi B3N's: Wayne's Cinderella's. If Hi-Vi makes something that sparks our fancy, we'll look into it, but there are lots of good drivers out there, and so little time...

Besides, I don't like yellow coned drivers....

C

[Wolf]

Posts as in 'plural'? Yeah- what's up with that?
Wolf

[lunchmoney]

I think I'm going to scream.

Pix please.

[donparsons]

I think I'm going to scream.

Pix please.

From above...

Lunch,

No pictures until they get some decent clothes on! Curt and I must keep up the illusion that all of our speakers burst forth from the aether fully finished in various hardwoods and clear coats. I hope to get some finish work done on them in a week or two.


Regards,
WayneW

[lunchmoney]

From above...

Lunch,

No pictures until they get some decent clothes on! Curt and I must keep up the illusion that all of our speakers burst forth from the aether fully finished in various hardwoods and clear coats. I hope to get some finish work done on them in a week or two.


Regards,
WayneW

Yeah, I know... I'm just being difficult. I'm just such a fan of the tritrix and the statements... can't wait to see a Curt and Wayne design that's somewhere in between... gonna be a real winner that fills a great niche.

[curt_c]

Yeah, I know... I'm just being difficult. I'm just such a fan of the tritrix and the statements... can't wait to see a Curt and Wayne design that's somewhere in between... gonna be a real winner that fills a great niche.

I think the speaker gods must have smiled on Wayne and I once again... Even with extended listening, where the flaws of any speaker start to show, the AviaTrix really are quite listenable. Like any small speaker, you can't expect the tactile presence that big diameter drivers provide, but that's about their only notable lack, and easily forgiven considering their small stature and cost.

C

[jonasz]

I think the speaker gods must have smiled on Wayne and I once again... Even with extended listening, where the flaws of any speaker start to show, the AviaTrix really are quite listenable. Like any small speaker, you can't expect the tactile presence that big diameter drivers provide, but that's about their only notable lack, and easily forgiven considering their small stature and cost.

C

So AviaTrix with a pair of good quality stereosubs should get you 98% of the way to audionirvana? :)

[curt_c]

So AviaTrix with a pair of good quality stereosubs should get you 98% of the way to audionirvana? :)

That was the intent, of course: A simple and inexpensive Speaker to become the anchor of either an HT or music system. But at the 90th percentile, one needs to look at the preferences and intended uses of the listener, especially for music reproduction. After all, we aren’t actually reproducing reality here, but our preconception of what reality should sound like.

Those who like to feel the kick drum in your chest, should probably look for a design with more and larger drivers. Those who like their bass and midrange on the full side, may find these a little too polite for them. On the other hand, those longing to hear all the nuances and micro details of a well recorded jazz or classical performance, or for some unknown reason, :D have an abhorrence of speaker distortion, may find these quite enjoyable. In my opinion, adding subs will not add ‘slam’ as I believe that sensation occurs above the normal sub pass band.

In other words, if we were making the analogy to the gods, this design would more closely emulate Fröja than Tor. Hence, the feminine moniker.

C

[mzisserson]

That was the intent, of course: A simple and inexpensive Speaker to become the anchor of either an HT or music system. But at the 90th percentile, one needs to look at the preferences and intended uses of the listener, especially for music reproduction. After all, we aren’t actually reproducing reality here, but our preconception of what reality should sound like.

Those who like to feel the kick drum in your chest, should probably look for a design with more and larger drivers. Those who like their bass and midrange on the full side, may find these a little too polite for them. On the other hand, those longing to hear all the nuances and micro details of a well recorded jazz or classical performance, or for some unknown reason, :D have an abhorrence of speaker distortion, may find these quite enjoyable. In my opinion, adding subs will not add ‘slam’ as I believe that sensation occurs above the normal sub pass band.

In other words, if we were making the analogy to the gods, this design would more closely emulate Fröja than Tor. Hence, the feminine moniker.

C

Hey Curt,
From my use with the 105's, I notice basically everything you have described above is near what they do. I feel there is one aspect you may have missed, Agility. If the 140's are like the 105's they are extremely "agile" and almost graceful in nature. I found these drivers to react so quickly and seamlessly to changes in dynamics and pitch, it is really quite amazing for the $$$. It is IMHO, their greatest strength, and a quality I have not found in deriver costing 10x their retail price. Any thoughts?

[curt_c]

Hey Curt,
From my use with the 105's, I notice basically everything you have described above is near what they do. I feel there is one aspect you may have missed, Agility. If the 140's are like the 105's they are extremely "agile" and almost graceful in nature. I found these drivers to react so quickly and seamlessly to changes in dynamics and pitch, it is really quite amazing for the $$$. It is IMHO, their greatest strength, and a quality I have not found in deriver costing 10x their retail price. Any thoughts?

Exactly!
Sometimes I’m at a loss for words, since it is do difficult to describe what we hear. Agile and graceful, -and capable of a full range of seemingly effortless motion.

Ballerina slippers instead of combat boots…

C

[Mackintire]

Since I'm always interested in overkill..... how difficult would it be to make a MTMMM version of this with even lower tuning ala 2.5 way MT?

To those that are following this thread......
If I hadn't purchased parts and started my never ending Natangs project I would have built the Avia Trix.

This project hits 90% of what I was designing for and looks to do it for a lot loss $$$.

[curt_c]

Not difficult, but not I’m not sure it would be worthwhile. -A lot of extra cost for another 6 dB of SPL. Add to it that another 2 woofers would necessitate a complete rework of the design. A lower tuning wouldn’t result in a lower f3 either…

I’d be more inclined to throw a couple of beefy woofers under them and make it a 3 way.

C

[villastrangiato]

Really nice looking design Curt!

I'll echo the sentiments of others on the cabinet layout and venting - sharp! Just curious, what made you decide not to offset the tweeters? It looks like the 4 inch distance from baffle edge and to the woofer cone's drop off contributed to the dip centered around 3.5 Khz - was there something that precluded an offset layout?

[HuskerNation]

What's up with the Hi-Vi posts?
We've built a design using the Hi-Vi B3N's: Wayne's Cinderella's. If Hi-Vi makes something that sparks our fancy, we'll look into it, but there are lots of good drivers out there, and so little time...




Besides, I don't like yellow coned drivers....
C
See...like I said....

.and.... the "kits" always have something to do with Dayton,
never with anything better and established like HiVi, yellow coned or not.

[curt_c]

Really nice looking design Curt!

I'll echo the sentiments of others on the cabinet layout and venting - sharp! Just curious, what made you decide not to offset the tweeters? It looks like the 4 inch distance from baffle edge and to the woofer cone's drop off contributed to the dip centered around 3.5 Khz - was there something that precluded an offset layout?Yes. The decision not to offset was a conscious one and a nod to the simplification of manufacturing and inventory of the knock down cabs that I assume PE will supply. The design was voiced with the speakers orthogonal to the room, so the listener is off axis, and the diffraction issues due to the tweeter being equidistant from the baffle edges is ameliorated. There are also advantages in the power response which are provided by a centered tweeter. All in all, the tweeter position is something of a toss up.

This is not, however the cause of the dip.

C

[HareBrained]

never with anything better and established like HiVi, yellow coned or not.

I would disagree that Hi-Vi is "better" or that Dayton is not "established". And there are numerous offerings from PE using the Usher drivers, some of the best midbasses available independent of price. Frankly, your comments are completely unfounded.

[HuskerNation]

I would disagree that Hi-Vi is "better" or that Dayton is not "established". And there are numerous offerings from PE using the Usher drivers, some of the best midbasses available independent of price. Frankly, your comments are completely unfounded.

Really Harebrain..lol.:

Show me a knockdown or package kit that's HiVi, and that's not Dayton based from PE >>

[djg]

Out of the two knockdown kits I can think of, one is Dayton based, one has no speakers and is a PA cab only.



Obviously an anti HiVi conspiracy.

[curt_c]

See...like I said....

.and.... the "kits" always have something to do with Dayton,
never with anything better and established like HiVi, yellow coned or not.
Honestly, your posts confuse me…
As the designer I have the autonomy to choose whatever drivers strike my fancy. The drivers for the original Triune and later TriTrix designs were actually chosen right here on the forum by the forum members in response to my inquiry, and with no input from PE.

Feel free to email me if you wish to explain your stance, or attempt to win me over to the HiVi cause…

C

[lunchmoney]

Honestly, your posts confuse me…
As the designer I have the autonomy to choose whatever drivers strike my fancy. The drivers for the original Triune and later TriTrix designs were actually chosen right here on the forum by the forum members in response to my inquiry, and with no input from PE.

Feel free to email me if you wish to explain your stance, or attempt to win me over to the HiVi cause…

C

Obviously it was some sort of poorly thought out accusation that you are somehow in cahoots with PE to only use Dayton drivers... anyone familiar with the various designs you've worked on, which use many different drivers, would know that this is utter nonsense.

[Stu]

Hi Curt,

This is none of my business, but i think you are fantastic in what you do for the chaps on this forum, whether you choose to use Dayton, Hi Vi, USHER or any other driver for that matter. You took the leap and stuck your neck out for the benefit of the DIY guy. These NE drivers are relativly new and if you say it sounds good who are we to judge your ability and knoledge of this driver when so few others have used it. The mere fact that you make your designs available "free" for the sake of others to reach their Audio Nervana is fantastic. I feel No member has a right to judge your use of any make of driver. Keep up the good work! Cant wait to see the finished product.

Stu

[villastrangiato]

Obviously it was some sort of poorly thought out accusation that you are somehow in cahoots with PE to only use Dayton drivers... anyone familiar with the various designs you've worked on, which use many different drivers, would know that this is utter nonsense.

Yeah, cahoots!! LOL.....Well, if you're going to be in cahoots with somebody - might as well be in "cahoots" with the best! ;)

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

stu, it is your bussiness..........now. mine too. curt made it so. would like to see a better drawing of the inclosure though. tl intrique me. dont think ill build the floorstanders but, am intrested in the center channel. i already have the drivers and x-over parts for three-ways. but my center channel is 'polk'. i want one that says 'Arlis'
curt, thanks to you and wayne for loving this hobby too.
cant wait to see more.

[curt_c]

HTguide allows larger files sizes. See the thread over there for better pics:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=36139

C

[nicholas_23]

Honestly, your posts confuse me…
As the designer I have the autonomy to choose whatever drivers strike my fancy. The drivers for the original Triune and later TriTrix designs were actually chosen right here on the forum by the forum members in response to my inquiry, and with no input from PE.

Feel free to email me if you wish to explain your stance, or attempt to win me over to the HiVi cause…

C

Indeed Curt, after Curts build on the two way that both him and Dan (the frugal bastard) helped me with I got the speaker building bug. After that build was done , I had asked Curt about the 4 ohm dayton drivers used in the tritrix. I do not see Curt or any others here biased one way or another. Great forum , great help, excellent knowledge. Now if we could just get Dan back , seems like we've lost a few "old timers" ;)

[evilskillit]

If you want to see some good HiVi designs there are some out there. Paul Carmody has a few good ones over at Undefinition. I think Wolf has 1 or 2 as well, and there are some other good ones out there. As for the PE kits as Curt stated the drivers were chosen by the designers due to their interesting characteristics or strong value.

However I would imagine PE would want to promote their highest margin drivers. Considering Dayton is their brand chances are its their highest margin unit. It would be dumb of them not to promote them given the oppurtunity. That is business after all. If they asked Curt for a kit and it was using another brand drivers they'd probably roll with it, they know it'll sell and make money. But using Dayton drivers makes dollars and cents to them, why complain about it?

[fastbike1]

Complaining about a DIY designer's choice of drivers is completely boneheaded to me.

I didn't realize the designer isn't allowed to pick the drivers and design they want.

Great designs at reasonable build price and someone still grumbles. You would think they would shut up and do their own design.

[curt_c]

I like your signature fastbike. I remember when My Back Pages came out...
Dam! that was a long time ago!

C

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

although, as you have proven, the rs28 plays nice crossed over so low, why push it when the nd140-8 will cross so much higher? did youz guyz try it higher, say 2k or 3k?

[fastbike1]

Thanks. I try to live to it. I think Dylan is inspirational: after all these years, his singing hasn't gotten worse! :D:D


I like your signature fastbike. I remember when My Back Pages came out...
Dam! that was a long time ago! :D

C

[theLinks]

Thanks Curt for the non HiVi Scrappy's speakers my daughter thinks are cute.:D They were done with red oak w/ little sub, for her dorm room.

[curt_c]

although, as you have proven, the rs28 plays nice crossed over so low, why push it when the nd140-8 will cross so much higher? did youz guyz try it higher, say 2k or 3k? The answer is cleverly hidden in the text of post #1 of this thread, with a hint shown by the off axis plots...


Thanks. I try to live to it. I think Dylan is inspirational: after all these years, his singing hasn't gotten worse! :D:D True that!
Perhaps you will remember Paul Simon's 'subtle' parody of Dylan in "A Simple Desultory Philippic (Or How I Was Robert McNamara'd Into Submission)" -Cracked me up at the time... http://popup.lala.com/popup/504684672132246124


Thanks Curt for the non HiVi Scrappy's speakers my daughter thinks are cute.:D They were done with red oak w/ little sub, for her dorm room. Those were Wayne's brainchildren. You've built excellent looking examples for her. No wonder she likes them...

C

[curt_c]

There will be a Sealed version in (most likely) 15 liters for CC use or as small mains. -The f3 models to be below 60 Hz, so it should integrate well with a sub, and should have adequtate bass extension even if used stand alone for 2 channel music.

No test enclosure built yet, but here are two preliminary designs for the enclosure:


AviaTrix Center Channel / Sealed Mains enclosure
http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=17409&stc=1

I'm leaning towards the version with the 6.5" x 20" baffle to minimize its height when used as a CC, but I welcome opinions on which would be the better option.

C

[cooper]

6.5 x 20 would be pretty sexy.

[MrkCrwly]

..... but I welcome opinions on which would be the better option.
C

I would agree that the 6 1/2 would be better for the center and the 2" extra height probably would not be an issue since most would be put on stands if they are used L and R.
That said I like the 7 1/2 x 18 proportions also. Probably a coin flip for me.

[dougjohnson]

T
I'm leaning towards the version with the 6.5" x 20" baffle to minimize its height when used as a CC, but I welcome opinions on which would be the better option.

I vote for the 6.5 x 20 since 6.5" is all the space I have.
-- Doug

[Thomas Brown]

coin flip. put em in a cardboard box. i am just excited to see them (different variations) and all the different builds that sprout up. curt & wayne, i haven't been around here very long, but it doesn't take much time to see what an asset both of you guys (individually and collabritavly) are to this diy world.

[jeff_free69]

Is it soup yet?

just wondereing what the approximate time frame is - I'm in the market for a high quality kit
(even though the weather is better - I still can't get myself to drag the table saw outdoors to cut some MDF)

[curt_c]

Which soup? The consomme, bisque, or chowder?

PE has the information to start putting out the kits, but obviously they need to set up for this and how much time that takes, I don’t know. I would expect the driver kit and crossover kit, sans knock down enclosures will be available shortly. The enclosures will take a bit longer as I suspect they have an outside vendor cut and package it for them.

If you can’t wait for the kit, all the information you need is posted on this thread. Of course I’m sure I’ve left something out, so let me know if I can fill in the blanks. I will be writing up the full design on my site in the near future.

C

[David LR]

Hello, question for the designer. My primary (but not exclusive) musical interest is classical. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the AviaTrix suitability for large scale orchestral works, ie, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler symphonies, etc., compared to the Mini-Statement design.

I seem to be particularly averse to strident, screechy violins & pianos that sound "tinkly" in the upper registers. Even treble piano notes have some weight & body to them. The Mini-Statements would seem to fit the bill, but you are saying the AviaTrix will go down into the 30's so maybe they're all I need. Any thoughts ??

This also brings up a broader question I've been wondering about for some time. There are at least two designers I'm aware of, Dennis Murphy & Paul Kittinger that always voice their designs using classical music. What do they or you do differently, or pay special attention to, when voicing for classical ? I know Paul K designed the well regarded Marcatos recently, & I have considered them, pretty expensive though. I ran across a great PE thread from 2007 on classical speakers, really a good read on the subject, still have questions though.

Anyway, thanks for you thoughts Curt & any other responders.

[curt_c]

David,
I feel the AviaTrix do shine on orchestral works. -And most other genre, for that matter, but whether they are all you need would be difficult for me to determine. I can say that if the violins sound strident and screechy, and the piano tinkly, I will be very surprised if the AviaTrix is found to be the cause… :D

The costs to build a set of Mini’s will be double that of the AviaTrix. However, the TMWW 3.5 way design will have certain advantages over a simpler MTM 2 way design that justify the added expense:

The Mini’s have higher max SPL and more headroom at higher SPL’s. Due to the driver topology and layout, they address floor bounce issues somewhat better. The will also have potentially lower distortion. I say potentially lower distortion as the ND140’s are pretty decent in that regard. The big advantage here is the low frequencies are handled by the dual RS180’s and the TB1337 is removed from those duties. This should result in lower Doppler distortion, and the midrange driver excursion is kept low, where its BL will be most linear. The Mini’s also have ribbon tweeter instead of a dome tweeter. These are both great tweeters, but certain instruments sound different due to their design. I find cymbal crashes sound a bit more realistic on the Fountek ribbon, but others may prefer the RS28F.

The Mini’s are a proven design with many build’s out there, and if I understand correctly, many happy owners. The AviaTrix on the other hand, currently only has Wayne and myself to tout its sonic attributes. Hopefully those circumstances will change soon…

All that said, the AviaTrix are very easy to listen to, and the drivers provide some amazing performance for their cost. For smaller venues, and those who are cost conscious, these exhibit a serious cost vs. value ratio. I've been listening to them for a few months now and they compare favorably to my reference speakers.

As far as voicing, I use many different genre, but primarily use male and female voices, and other acoustic instruments to get the right balance. I find any given musical selection will have a unique signature of frequencies in its makeup, and potentially can hide response aberrations that other selections exacerbate. To be honest I don’t rely as much on classical compositions as I do others, but then I’m more familiar with them as well….

I apologize that this response probably did little to address your questions, but the only real way for you to know for sure is to build or audition them both, and then decide for yourself.
Let me know if I can answer any further questions concerning the designs.

C

[David LR]

Curt-

Thanks much for your thorough reply. I have neither the money nor the time to build & compare both the Mini & the AviaTrix (I do have the inclination however !)so, I will be giving the AviaTrix a shot in the next couple of months. I like to save money, plus I think my room is a tad small for the Mini's with their requirement to be what, 16" or so from the back wall ??

This will certainly be a step up as my current speakers are an MTM design using the Vifa P17J-08/Vifa D27TG combo. I've always felt the tweeter was somewhat harsh & there's no way the woofers come even close to the 30's

[Paul K.]

Now that Curt has responded, I can, too. I'm pretty sure each person voices a speaker with music they are most familiar with and listen to. I listen to mostly only symphonic music. I assume Dennis Murphy does, too, but not only that, he plays a viola in a semi-professional orchestra. I suspect Dennis has a much better "ear" than I, however, although that doesn't mean our voicing will necessarily be identical. I would guess that few designers actually are able to listen to really live music in public performances unless it is by a symphony orchestra or large choral group; "live" performances by popular singers and groups aren't really live since everything heard is fed through microphones, amplifiers, sometimes equalizers, then out of speakers on stage. In the end, though, it shouldn't really matter what kind of music one likes, plays or voices speakers with; a well-designed and implemented speaker should be able to play any type of music with good results.
Paul


Hello, question for the designer. My primary (but not exclusive) musical interest is classical. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the AviaTrix suitability for large scale orchestral works, ie, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler symphonies, etc., compared to the Mini-Statement design.

I seem to be particularly averse to strident, screechy violins & pianos that sound "tinkly" in the upper registers. Even treble piano notes have some weight & body to them. The Mini-Statements would seem to fit the bill, but you are saying the AviaTrix will go down into the 30's so maybe they're all I need. Any thoughts ??

This also brings up a broader question I've been wondering about for some time. There are at least two designers I'm aware of, Dennis Murphy & Paul Kittinger that always voice their designs using classical music. What do they or you do differently, or pay special attention to, when voicing for classical ? I know Paul K designed the well regarded Marcatos recently, & I have considered them, pretty expensive though. I ran across a great PE thread from 2007 on classical speakers, really a good read on the subject, still have questions though.

Anyway, thanks for you thoughts Curt & any other responders.

[Æ]

My experience, is that if you "voice" a pair of loudspeakers for any particular musical instrument, then they will sound good for that specific instrument and maybe similar instruments, but not as good for other varieties of instruments.

[David LR]

a well-designed and implemented speaker should be able to play any type of music with good results.
Paul

I realize this is the good theory & practice, I was just curious to know if there's anything you especially watch out for in designing for symphonic music, & therefore, things I should look for in choosing a classical speaker.

Thanks for your answer.

David

[waynew]

David,

I suspect that the things one "looks out for" in designing a speaker for classical music are the same things that one looks out for in designing a speaker that will be dedicated to Jazz, or Blues, or Bluegrass, et al...a flat response throughout the usable range, low distortion, tight even bass response and listenability. I tend to let my ears tell me when a speaker sounds right. If the ears start to hurt, then we need to tweak. If the hairs on my arms stand up when Allison Kraus is singing, then we are about there. If I cannot hear the back up vocalists...more tweaking. Curt and I use a fairly broad range of music when we voice in a pair of speakers. Opera, Jazz, Rock, Country Western, Blue Grass, Hippie Music, Elevator Music, the stuff you hear on the weather channel (don't laugh..they get some pretty good stuff now and then). We try to find a good balance on all of it. I tend to listen to Classical, Jazz, Blue Grass, Opera and Country. I like Vivaldi, DeBussy, Brahms, Union Station, Nickel Creek, Jamie Cullum, Brad Paisley, Tonic SolFa, Josh Groban, Handel, Mozart, etc. etc, so I try to voice the speakers to sound as good as possible on all genres.
I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the people here do it the same way!

WayneW

[curt_c]

...Hippie Music,

Well, you know us old hippies played some far out music back in the day...

-And we were blessed to live in interesting times...

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8188&stc=1&d=1271302171

[David LR]

Alrighty then, I am convinced. I'll stop looking for the magic bullet classical music speaker designer :) I hope to build these in the next 2-3 months. Let ya know how they sound then ! Thanks a lot.

Dave

[blaine]

Since I'm always interested in overkill..... how difficult would it be to make a MTMMM version of this with even lower tuning ala 2.5 way MT?

To those that are following this thread......
If I hadn't purchased parts and started my never ending Natangs project I would have built the Avia Trix.

This project hits 90% of what I was designing for and looks to do it for a lot loss $$$.

I had been thinking the same thing, and not necessarily to play any lower in pitch. That's what subs are for. More for dynamic headroom. (I am more intrigued by Zaph's ZA5.5TT mmtmm, than by his ZA5.3 mtm). Of course I've never heard any of them so maybe I have my head up my a**

At any rate, I think this mtm is a way cool design.

BTW, Curt, if you read this - I was trying to listen to my BR-1s yesterday while building Dennis Murphy's crossover for them, which forced me to, for the first time, flip my triune centre up and use it as a main while I gutted one of the BR-1s. I was surprised at how much better the triune sounds than the BR-1. And it's not even a tritrix.

[jeff_free69]

Well, you know us old hippies played some far out music back in the day...

-And we were blessed to live in interesting times...



you said it! - i just got my copies of Hendrix "Valleys of Neptune", "..Experienced" and "Ladyland" remasters. Probably the LAST things I'd use to audition speakers, though (now I can really hear how trashy those drums were recorded:) But as long as Jimi's out in front.

[curt_c]

Since I'm always interested in overkill..... how difficult would it be to make a MTMMM version of this with even lower tuning ala 2.5 way MT?

To those that are following this thread......
If I hadn't purchased parts and started my never ending Natangs project I would have built the Avia Trix.

This project hits 90% of what I was designing for and looks to do it for a lot loss $$$.
]I had been thinking the same thing, and not necessarily to play any lower in pitch. That's what subs are for. More for dynamic headroom. (I am more intrigued by Zaph's ZA5.5TT mmtmm, than by his ZA5.3 mtm). Of course I've never heard any of them so maybe I have my head up my a**

At any rate, I think this mtm is a way cool design.

The topology of the MLTL requires all woofers have approximately the same offset ratio. This limits the driver position options for this design, and would necessitate it be constructed as a dipole or bipole by placing the 2nd pair on the rear of the enclosure roughly opposite of the tweeter. The enclosure would need to be twice as deep, and of course the crossover would have to be reworked. Certainly doable, but probably not something I will investigate. The ND140's are real troopers and can take a lot of power. Yes, there is probably some compression distortion at high SPL's but its audibly benign.


BTW, Curt, if you read this - I was trying to listen to my BR-1s yesterday while building Dennis Murphy's crossover for them, which forced me to, for the first time, flip my triune centre up and use it as a main while I gutted one of the BR-1s. I was surprised at how much better the triune sounds than the BR-1. And it's not even a tritrix.

Thanks Blaine,
I have every confidence that Dennis’s crossover wrings every last bit of improvement out of the BR-1’s. It will be interesting to hear how the Triune fares compared to it. I hope you get the opportunity to share that comparison with us.

C

[curt_c]

Update on the response dip at 3K:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7250&stc=1&d=1267642758

I did some further investigations on the dip a couple of weeks ago. At distances of 6 ft and greater, the dip fills in completerly when measured on the design axis.

C

[JarOfSonicMen]

So, about that xover design...did I miss it?

I could sure stand to build a set of these puppies for my HT setup. In fact, at about $100 per channel in drivers, I'm thinking maybe a full-up 7.1 set:)

[lunchmoney]

Curt, for the matching center channel, did you consider doing a 3-way?

[bmaupin]

Curt, for the matching center channel, did you consider doing a 3-way?

I don't think there is much need for it since it crosses over at 1k.

[JarOfSonicMen]

Oops. I'm stoopid. Search turned it up pretty quick. My bad.

EDIT: Although I did just figure out the 4 braces, and I have to say that I hope PE doesn't do that hideous dado for the braces like on the TriTrix. It's got to be less trouble than the back panel of the TriTrix but if they do it with the braces here, it should be on one side only, It would be much easier for meatheads like me to assemble if you just pound it flush then set the top piece on and screw it down.

And it seems like the braces could be slotted to lock together, thus the one dado locks both braces in place with back, front, and one side. But if I got a vote, I'd vote for braces slotted in the middle to lock together, no dado at all.

OK, not so much a meathead as Not Mechanically Inclined :)

[aoessand]

just when i had found the tritrix and was about to order i found this! haha i like the look of these speakers better so ill be waiting for them to come out, though i have one concern i have the Onkyo HT-RC160 and im wondering if they will work with it? here is a link to the receiver
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=HT-RC160&class=Receiver&p=s

if someone could help me out otherwise might have to just get the tritrix since they are 8ohm.

[Texan]

This looks exciting! I am glad to see more kits. Ya I need another set of speakers :rolleyes: :D

[MrkCrwly]

just when i had found the tritrix and was about to order i found this! haha i like the look of these speakers better so ill be waiting for them to come out, though i have one concern i have the Onkyo HT-RC160 and im wondering if they will work with it? here is a link to the receiver
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=HT-RC160&class=Receiver&p=s

if someone could help me out otherwise might have to just get the tritrix since they are 8ohm.

I believe Curt called the AviaTrix 6 ohm speakers so it should not be an issue. I am far from an expert but I am pretty sure that PE would not want to sell a speaker kit for the masses, that your Onkyo could not handle.

[curt_c]

just when i had found the tritrix and was about to order i found this! haha i like the look of these speakers better so ill be waiting for them to come out, though i have one concern i have the Onkyo HT-RC160 and im wondering if they will work with it? here is a link to the receiver
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=HT-RC160&class=Receiver&p=s

if someone could help me out otherwise might have to just get the tritrix since they are 8ohm.

Onkyo lists a 'dynamic power' spec at 3 ohms one channel driven. I suspect it will have no issues driving the Aviatrix.

C

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

curt, i hope ya'll will build a center channel and share ya'lls listening impressions.

[waynew]

Arlis,

The L/C/R's are just waiting for Veneer to arrive. I hope to get all of that material this week and finish out the Floor Standers and the L/C/R's by this weekend. Once they are veneered, Curt will finish up the cross-overs and we will give them a listen.

Thank you, Everyone, for your patience. I would have had these done sooner, but a broken foot slows a guy down. Now that I am able to walk with one of those aircast boots, I can get them finished up. I like to call it the "moonboot".


WayneW

[blaine]

Thanks Blaine,
I have every confidence that Dennis’s crossover wrings every last bit of improvement out of the BR-1’s. It will be interesting to hear how the Triune fares compared to it. I hope you get the opportunity to share that comparison with us.

C

Disclaimer: Frankly the original BR-1s is very, very nice sounding for the price compared to any non-kit non-DIY speakers I ever heard. I got some speakers from bestbuy.ca that are comparable in price to performance, but that's because I bought them when they were 75% off. And they still are a lower grade speaker. I don't think bestbuy here has any speaker at any price as good as the BR-1s.

Well I cannot actually compare the improved BR-1s (and they are improved) to the Triune, because I only have one triune. I can say this much: I am certain the triune is more sensitive (although this doesn't matter to me because I have more than enough power to adjust the volume either way). I think the triune still sounds better in the midrange and up. I think the improved BR-1 is better in the bass than my sealed triune. By better I mean deeper and maybe a bit fuller. Don't know about vented triunes or tritrixes. I guess it stands to reason based on the drivers. Both are much better than the original BR-1, but the BR-1s were a very nice intro to hi fi AND DIY.

Now that I've improved the BR-1s, I need someone to break in and steal them so my wife will approve something better. Like the AviaTrix for instance. Onward and upward... but carefully when wifey is looking.

[curt_c]

Onward and upward... but carefully when wifey is looking.

A word to the wise:
In my experience, it rarely, if ever, is a good plan to give SWMBO new DIY speakers for Mother's day, Her birthday, Anniversaries, etc. -You can only build so many 'subs cleverly hidden in an end table' before they start to get wise...

Better to use the 'Buy one, get one free' plan, where you build or buy something They want, in exchange for permission for your next project.

C

[waynew]

Curt has given very sage advice, in a common theme, I follow the Man's Rule of Reciprocity:

Simply stated, the Man's Rule of Reciprocity states that anytime a man wants something, he must provide something of equal or greater value for his wife. This applies to speakers, guns, tools, toys, etc.

As a personal testimony, I have been following this rule since I was married nearly 10 years ago, and it has been working quite well. The only downside is having to save up for twice as long to buy that super new "widget" that I just have to have!

WayneW

[Slowhead]

I thought waiting for a little while for the release of the AviaTrix may be a good thing. That time has come and gone. My speaker construction workspace has been organized and have been looking foward to the debut. A quick inquiry to PE has led me to believe it may be later than sooner.

[curt_c]

I don't know when the PE kit will be available, but you can buy all the parts at the 'regular' price and build it yourself today. Wayne had to send back a bad batch of veneer, which he had on backorder (not from PE) but we should have pics in a couple of weeks as well as have a handle on the L/C/R sealed version.

I don't have the write up on my website yet, but that will come soon as well.

C

[Slowhead]

I can wait. It's either build new speakers or start a bathroom remodel and I'm not too keen on the latter. Thanks for the update Curt.

[waynew]

******Update******

L/C/R's have been veneered, stained and clear coated. They are now in Curt's possession for cross-over implementation. I expect he will have photo's of them uploaded in the near future. The original floor standers should be about finished up this weekend. For those of you following along, I broke my foot, and my veneer was backordered. My foot is healing up, but when the veneer arrived it was damaged, so I had to return it and get another order (fortunately not backordered anymore).

I have a sneaking suspicion that the L/C/R will make a very nice center channel...time will tell.

Now back to regularly scheduled programming....

WayneW

[Rightbrained]

Wayne ,
Thanks for the update and hope your foot heals soon!

[waynew]

It's getting better every day...thanks!

W

[curt_c]

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8854&stc=1&d=1274674364
As promised, here is a pic of the L/C/R version of the AviaTrix. Wayne did his usual incredible cabinetry work, and this picture doesn't do them justice. These sport Walnut veneer and solid Hickory baffles, and I'm quite enamored with them...

Initial listening impressions (by me, Wayne hasn't heard them yet) are very promising and play surprisingly deep for a sealed design. Not as low as the MLTL's but certainly audible well down into the 30's in my room. -Big sound in a little box: These can play VERY loud without any complaints. Thanks to the RS28F, the low crossover frequency provides much better horizontal off-axis response than the average MTM center channel speaker can provide. As with the TL version these were designed to be placed reasonably close to the wall and would easily work as mains where a larger speaker would not be appropriate.

I'm really quite impressed by these drivers.

C

[Thomas Brown]

geoureous work guys, just put in an order for some drivers!!!

curt do the sealed l/c/r use the same x-over as the towers, also which baffle size did you guys go with.

great looking work!!

[fastbike1]

The Tritrix kit is crazy bang for the buck. The Statement series seems to be incredible for the cost, and now you do this. Fortunately I have some Walnut and Hickory veneer that is currently not designated for a specific project. I suppose to be different I may do the baffles out of black walnut and veneer the cabs in hickory. Absolutely stunning cabs.

To make things worse, there are a ton of other great designs and people on this board.

Us old guys just don't have enough time left to do the designs justice. That doesn't even count the DIY electronics possibilities. :D

[MrkCrwly]

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8854&stc=1&d=1274674364
As promised, here is a pic of the L/C/R version of the AviaTrix. Wayne did his usual incredible cabinetry work, and this picture doesn't do them justice. These sport Walnut veneer and solid Hickory baffles, and I'm quite enamored with them...C

Nice: Are the woofers recessed or did you surface mount?
Thanks.

[waynew]

The RS28F is flush mounted, but the ND's are surface mounted. All that is required for the ND's is a 4-3/4" cutout, a little wobbling around and they lock right into place.

The cross-over is the same as the Floorstanding version with the addition of an additional 1,000mF of capacitance on the woofers. This extends the bass response shelf a touch lower than the sealed cabinet would allow without it, although it rolls off really fast down below the cutoff freq.

Also, for the wood working guys out there, the L/C/R's are all walnut. The front baffles are a solid piece of air-dried walnut that is 7/8" thick (which doesn't look quite the same as kiln/steamed walnut). The Floorstanding version got the hickory baffle with Walnut veneer on everything else. We should have pictures of those later this week. The clear coat is drying.

Dimensions of the L/C/R - (center channel orientation) 20" wide x 6.5" tall x 11.5" deep.....very entertainment center friendly!


Regards,
WayneW

[ravo2000]

Just got my first look at these... I now believe in love at first sight!

Of course, this also creates a dilemma... just finishing up my subwoofer build, and my summer plans were to add a set of Triune MT's as my L/R and the sealed Triune as a center channel... so this leads to the questions -

If cost and timeframe are removed from the equation... am I better off with the Aviatrix design (sealed) over the Triune as a sealed CC?

Would there be a benefit to using the same sealed Aviatrix design as L/R channels rather than an MT design, keeping in mind that these will be used in a 7.1 setup with a powered subwoofer? They would also be placed on a shelf with not too much room behind them...

I'd love to hear some thoughts from the members here...

Thanks,

Johnny Ravo

[waynew]

Ravo,

My opinion is as follows:

I consider the AviaTrix as an upgrade to the Triune/Tritrix line, and as such I would use the AviaTrix as a CC in lieu of the Triune/TriTrix. That being said, the TriTrix MT (or Triune MT) would make a very good Surround Sound. We have yet to work on the AviaTrix MT version. If you plan on listening to some music through the L/R, again, I would go with the AviaTrix in either iteration (Floorstanding version or the Sealed MTM), floor space or shelf space allowing!

The reasoning on the CC is that the AviaTrix has better bass response and better detail, which really help to add "realism" to spoken dialogue and 5.1 content. I recently upgraded my center channel and was amazed at the difference it made in how I could hear all of the info...not to mention that I was able to turn it down quite a bit...which is a bonus when the commercials some on and Billy Mays or Anthony Sullivan start yelling about Oxyclean, Mighty Putty or the latest greatest "as seen on tv" product!

Regards,
WayneW

[ravo2000]

Thanks for your detailed explanation, Wayne.

Looks like I'll be going with a full compliment of Aviatrix as my L/C/R... I can't wait. And to reiterate - man, those are some beautiful speakers.


I recently upgraded my center channel and was amazed at the difference it made in how I could hear all of the info...not to mention that I was able to turn it down quite a bit...which is a bonus when the commercials some on and Billy Mays or Anthony Sullivan start yelling about Oxyclean, Mighty Putty or the latest greatest "as seen on tv" product!

SHAMWOW!!!! 'Cause you're gonna spend $20/month on papertowels anyway...

Thanks again,

Johnny Ravo

[waynew]

Thanks Johnny,

When you build them, take pictures and post 'em up! I was under the gun to get them done, so I didn't do a good job of documenting the build.

My wife fell for the Shamwow, and wow did it NOT work as advertised! I hope that Vince guy gets arrested again...his mug shots crack me up!

Wayne

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

damn, those are georgous.

[lunchmoney]

Wow, very nice.

Curious, why no offset on the tweeter? Is it because these are intended to be used a bit off axis?

[waynew]

Lunch,

Yes, and also because the tweeter is crossed so low. Also, we weren't sure what size of baffle would be used, so we wanted to have some lee-way as far as were the drivers would go.



WayneW

[bmaupin]

The cross-over is the same as the Floorstanding version with the addition of an additional 1,000mF of capacitance on the woofers. This extends the bass response shelf a touch lower than the sealed cabinet would allow without it, although it rolls off really fast down below the cutoff freq.

Would a single ND140-8 use 500uF or 2000uF for same low end influence?

[curt_c]

500 uF in 7.5 liters.

C

[absolootbs]

i noticed there hasn't been any mention of a forthcoming ported MTM version of these. is the thinking that with as low as the sealed version plays, it's probably just not necessary?

also, i saw that wayne did say "We have yet to work on the AviaTrix MT version". does that mean that there are plans to do an MT version eventually, or am i reading too far into that statement?

i really wish PE would at least get the driver/crossover kits out there. they're pretty inexpensive to start out with... i can't wait to see what kind of price breaks the kits bring.

[curt_c]

The MLTL is the ported version. :D -As low as the sealed MTM’s go, I see no need for small vented version, but who knows...

While an MT could be easily done, keep in mind it would exhibit 6 dB less system sensitivity. This isn’t that big of a deal when used in a near wall configuration and its reduced baffle step requirements, or used as surround speakers. I’m sure at some point we’ll put a pair together and voice them, but it’s not on my plate presently.

C

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, the pronunciation is: A-vee-A-tricks.

The plural is AviaTrices, pronounced A-vee-A-tra-CEE’s.

[absolootbs]

This isn’t that big of a deal when... used as surround speakers.

thanks for the response curt. you hit the nail on the head there. i'm looking to replace my current l/c/r in my theater in the very near future and i will probably eventually want to replace my surrounds with something that uses the same or similar drivers as whatever i build for the mains. i've been leaning towards cjd's RS150 mtm for mains since they seem to meet all my criteria, and there are some rs1xx/seas MT designs available. but i've been following your progress on these, keeping them in mind as possibilities, and i really like that they use a smaller cabinet and cost less. an MT version would make them that much more attractive to me. fwiw, as many rave reviews as you and wayne get on your designs, i'm sure an MT version would be appreciated by far more people than just myself (hint hint :D).

speaking of near wall, how close is the closest you would advise going with the sealed version of these? my situation will place the backs of the cabinets within a couple inches of the wall behind them. that was one of the other reasons i liked the rs150 mtm - the on wall crossover option. i know you mentioned something earlier about the sealed version being ok closer to a boundary than the average large speaker, but i wasn't sure just how close you were talking there.

[bmaupin]

500 uF in 7.5 liters.

C

I guess you put the cap in front of both woofer and tweeter networks? I am asking because I have a ported MT design using the ND140-8 + ND20FB and would like to try this. The ND140 does everything very nice, but my 9L or so box ported is too small - low notes are there, but faintly.

[curt_c]

That would work, but it would be better to put it in front of the woofer network only, keeping the tweeter network connected direct.

C

[scottsehlin]

thanks for the response curt. you hit the nail on the head there. i'm looking to replace my current l/c/r in my theater in the very near future and i will probably eventually want to replace my surrounds with something that uses the same or similar drivers as whatever i build for the mains. i've been leaning towards cjd's RS150 mtm for mains since they seem to meet all my criteria, and there are some rs1xx/seas MT designs available. but i've been following your progress on these, keeping them in mind as possibilities, and i really like that they use a smaller cabinet and cost less. an MT version would make them that much more attractive to me. fwiw, as many rave reviews as you and wayne get on your designs, i'm sure an MT version would be appreciated by far more people than just myself (hint hint :D).

speaking of near wall, how close is the closest you would advise going with the sealed version of these? my situation will place the backs of the cabinets within a couple inches of the wall behind them. that was one of the other reasons i liked the rs150 mtm - the on wall crossover option. i know you mentioned something earlier about the sealed version being ok closer to a boundary than the average large speaker, but i wasn't sure just how close you were talking there.

I've heard CJD's RS-150 MTM's and designed my own MT's based on the RS-150 and Seas H1212. They are good performers to be certain. For an l/c/r setup, the big advantage of the AviaTrix over any of the RS-150 designs out there is that the lower crossover point will greatly improve the off-axis performance of the center channel.

[curt_c]

speaking of near wall, how close is the closest you would advise going with the sealed version of these? my situation will place the backs of the cabinets within a couple inches of the wall behind them. that was one of the other reasons i liked the rs150 mtm - the on wall crossover option. i know you mentioned something earlier about the sealed version being ok closer to a boundary than the average large speaker, but i wasn't sure just how close you were talking there.

Right now I have the front baffle 28" from the front wall, which leaves about 16" betweent the front wall and the rear of the speaker. I'll try to make time to move them closer tonight and report back on the results.

C

[absolootbs]

I've heard CJD's RS-150 MTM's and designed my own MT's based on the RS-150 and Seas H1212. They are good performers to be certain. For an l/c/r setup, the big advantage of the AviaTrix over any of the RS-150 designs out there is that the lower crossover point will greatly improve the off-axis performance of the center channel.

thats a good point. fortunately for my options, but unfortunately for my decision making, that won't matter in this particular situation. all three will be vertically oriented at the same height behind an AT screen. and being a dedicated theater, all seating is directly in front of the screen.


Right now I have the front baffle 28" from the front wall, which leaves about 16" betweent the front wall and the rear of the speaker. I'll try to make time to move them closer tonight and report back on the results.

C

man, talk about customer service... and we're not even actually customers :). truly inspiring graciousness around here. i look forward to hearing your findings, but as i'm sure you're a busy guy, please, no rush.

[curt_c]

OK: Here’s the near wall/on wall skinny:

Moving the speakers to within 2 inches of the wall resulted in the bass being a little too full on some material. –Reminiscent perhaps of some of the Polk speakers I’ve heard over the years. Likely this will not be an issue for those who like lots of bass, but fortunately there are simple solutions for those who want a more neutral presentation:

-For the HT crowd, the use of the receiver’s HP filters to integrate them with a sub woofer would likely improve this issue.

-Toeing the speakers in towards the listening position was an improvement as well. (As designed and voiced, they are intended to be placed orthogonal with the room walls.)

-Although I didn’t try it, a small reduction in the value of the tweeter attenuation resistor would likely address the reticent upper midrange/treble and restore the proper balance.

Other than the gain in the low bass, voicing changed only slightly when moved close to the wall: The lower midrange was not affected other than male voices sounded a tiny bit fuller, and due to the overall balance changes, the upper midrange on up sounding a tiny bit recessed. –This is without resorting to any of the solutions listed above.

I found the best balance in my room when the front baffle was about 26” from the front wall. This puts the back of the speaker a little over a foot from the wall. –But before you design your HT room around this number, read the following caveat:

My listening ‘room’ is in a walk out basement, and has a concrete wall as the front wall and two of the other 3 walls. I suspect those using the AviaTrix above ground with conventional wood frame and drywall walls will find the optimum position to be considerably closer as much of the bass reflected back in my room would pass through a conventional wall.

Consequently, I’m fairly certain that under normal conditions, most will find near wall or on wall applications of this speaker will be satisfactory. An in wall application would be another story, but an acceptable response might be accomplished with minor changes to the crossover, perhaps as simple as reducing the value of the tweeter attenuation resistor.

C

[waynew]

My impressions of the sealed L/C/R version of the Aviatrix. Location was near wall, with the back of the speaker about 6 to 8" away. Source was a marantz cd player and an Arcam FMJ Integrated.

Comments - I like these for Home Theater very much. The cabinet size is perfect for a center channel and if space is lacking, the sealed MTM will certainly be a very good choice for a matching front end.

Pros - Male and Female vocals very clear and crisp. Image was good, spacious sound, no "head-in-a-vice". Balance between male and female vocals was very close to the ported floorstanding version and definitely satisfying.

Neutrals - High treble somewhat attenuated when used that close to the wall. As some prefer less "sizzle" I call this a neutral. Changing some resistance in the tweeter network will allow the "salt or pepper" to be applied or left off as taste dictates. Also, changing a receiver's speaker setting to small may very well take care of this issue with no change to the cross-over. This speaker likes to be fed some power. They shine quite nicely when you turn up the volume! They get plenty loud without complaint, but with such a small cabinet, it takes more juice to get them there.

Cons - Bass is a touch tubby (however, as this is more of a Home Theater application, using the small setting for the speakers on the receiver will clean that up). The low bass is there, but the punch that one gets with the speaker further out in the room is lacking. As with all speakers, room placement is an issue

Conclusion - This will make a very good center channel, particularly when a subwoofer is included. Using it for the L/C/R and a sub will make a very good front end on an HT system. My own preference would be to use the Floorstanding Ported Version for L/R duty and the sealed version for the CC. However, if I didn't have the room, with some groovy stands and a nice subwoofer, I could be happy with just the L/C/R's as well.
If you like the Tritrix...you will like these more!

WayneW

[curt_c]

And here's the MLTL:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8901&stc=1&d=1275017782
Once again Wayne shows his exceptional skills and taste. This one I'm pretty sure sports the hickory baffles with walnut veneer, but really I don't have a clue. I just know they look dam sharp....

[WayneN]

Curt, Wayne,

The contrast between the Hickory and Walnut on the L/C/R is beautiful, for the MLTL the Hickory almost looks like Maple, very nicely done!

WayneN

[MrkCrwly]

Ditto on the kudos. I too love the contrast between the hickory and the walnut. Wayne, did you use a 1/2 or so chamfer in lieu of a round over on the front baffle? Don't think I have ever seen hickory that uniform before. Just beautiful. Elegant simplicity.
I am jealous.

[waynew]

Thank you for the nice comments, guys!

I used a 1/2" chamfer 45deg. bit on both. I think it looks good when compared to the same size roundover. I like to use roundovers when I can go bigger, say 3/4" to 1", but on the smaller edges, I will usually go with a 45deg. chamfer.

The L/C/R's have a walnut baffle that ended up at about 7/8" thick after I planed the wood down. I have a small stockpile of air dried walnut that a guy gave me, so it looks a bit different than traditionally steamed and kiln dried walnut, hence I was able to fool Curt with it! It isn't very uniform in color, but I really like the character of it. For the Floorstanders, I picked up the hickory at a local place in Lincoln...when I first saw it, I thought it was Ash. It doesn't look like Hickory/Pecan, but I think it was flat sawn, not quarter sawn like most hickory that a guy sees. A few passes throught the planer and I ended up with just a touch over 7/8", and boy is that stuff hard! Honing your bits is a must, as is using a lot of bit lube, otherwise it burns like a mother!

Regards,

WayneW

[lunchmoney]

I wonder why they chose to give the woofers off-round frames?

Looks nice, but certainly makes it a lot tougher to flush mount them... they are certain to lose some sales because people don't want to deal with tricky router work.

[curt_c]

I wonder why they chose to give the woofers off-round frames?

Looks nice, but certainly makes it a lot tougher to flush mount them... they are certain to lose some sales because people don't want to deal with tricky router work.

Ah! but you don't need to recess the woofer frames! If I had a complaint about the ND140, it would be that its sonic quality deserves a cast frame. Instead it has a pressed steel basket -but the frame edges are flat and only the thickness of the steel, so no recessing necessary except for the tweeter. The one caveat: In order to keep the flange from deforming under the screw, they need to be attached with panhead or shoulder screws, or use the finish washers Wayne chose. There is no sonic detriment to the the baskets that I could hear, and of course a cast frame would have added to the cost...

C

[Rightbrained]

Very nice job on the MLTL.

I certainly don't need more speakers but when the diy bug bites again these will be my choice.

[kmibb]

The MLTL looks amazing; however, the sealed are still some of the prettier speakers I've seen. I went out and bought some walnut as soon as I read the thread.

I also really like the small detail that the gold/copper screws have.

Kevin

[curt_c]

Near wall / on wall applications:

I fussed with the crossover today with the sealed speakers placed 2" from the front wall, and compared them to the MLTL pulled out a more acceptable (for me, anyway) 1 meter from the front baffle to the front wall. I could get nearly identical voicing (I'll have to have Wayne confirm this) by merely adding a 50 ohm resistor in parallel with the existing series tweeter resistor.

The point being that it will be easy to adjust the AviaTrix for whatever position suits you, and the bass won't have to sound like this:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8965&stc=1&d=1275278223

[davepellegrene]

Near wall / on wall applications:

I fussed with the crossover today with the sealed speakers placed 2" from the front wall, and compared them to the MLTL pulled out a more acceptable (for me, anyway) 1 meter from the front baffle to the front wall. I could get nearly identical voicing (I'll have to have Wayne confirm this) by merely adding a 50 ohm resistor in parallel with the existing series tweeter resistor.

The point being that it will be easy to adjust the AviaTrix for whatever position suits you, and the bass won't have to sound like this:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8965&stc=1&d=1275278223

What is that? I think I need one of those or two. :confused:
Dave

[ssyfert]

If I'm not mistaken, that's a washtub bass, although the handle looks weird. The one I heard had a broom handle and twine for string. Not that I routinely attend concerts that feature washtub basses. :)

[curt_c]

What is that? I think I need one of those or two. :confused:
Dave

Sorry Dave... Just when you though you knew a lot about music reproduction, I had to drag this up... :D

Y'all need to get down to Nawlins and hear a jug band. A real slice of Americana, and the epitome of DIY'ing...

C

[jszmgpolk]

Hey Curt,

Any idea when PE might launch the kit?

[curt_c]

Here is the BOM and network schematics for the AviaTrix. Sorry, I don't know when PE will have the kits ready. I'll follow this up with suggested board layouts, pics, etc. soon. - The 5 lb bag of acoustuff is enough for at least 5 speakers. A single one lb. bag would be enough for two sealed AviaTrix, and two 1 lb. bags for a pair of the MLTL's.

For the MLTL version: The two 500 uF NPE's, should be deleted, and add 3" flared vents to your BOM. I like the PE vents better as the inner flare is small enough that you can remove it through the outer flare hole. I used the Precision ports on the test articles, but ended up not using the inner flares for that reason.
-The space under the flare is a nice spot for the crossover board, and provides easy access to the binding posts, etc.

C
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8986&stc=1&d=1275411260

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8987&stc=1&d=1275415216

[bmaupin]

If you don't mind the extra size and soldering, the 250uF caps are cheaper - either $23.92 for 8 or $23.30 for 10 :)

[curt_c]

If you don't mind the extra size and soldering, the 250uF caps are cheaper - either $23.92 for 8 or $23.30 for 10 :)

And a lower ECR as well... Good call, Brad!

C

[Soundslike]

Curt,
I may have missed it somewhere in this thread, but I don't see the flared port on your parts list. Is it the 268-350?

I'm currently in the process of building eight of your Tritrix speakers (four TLs and four ported) for my son and daughter. I'll certainly build the AviaTrix as soon as a kit is available.

Ron

[spasticteapot]

Out of curiosity, why the RS28? Are the ND140s really that badly in need of a low xover point?

[bmaupin]

Out of curiosity, why the RS28? Are the ND140s really that badly in need of a low xover point?

I have a design with the ND20FB and the ND140-8 crossing around 3.4k and the mids from the ND140 are very nice. The low cross point makes for a nice MTM CC and removes the need for notch filters on the woofers - mine uses a cap (custom 0.13uF value :( ) across the woofer coil and a LCR trap adding about $10 per side.

An additional note on the ND140: I am using them ported in a 10L cabinet. The bass goes low and sounds very clean. I bet the AviaTrix tower TL design is mighty impressive!

[spasticteapot]

One idea someone mentioned was the use of the generic MCM waveguide (the one used in the Zaph waveguide 2.5-way) with an Aurasound NT1 or Dayton ND20 tweeter. Apparently, it allows for the crossover point to be dropped as low as 2khz LR4.

Might make for an interesting "super-budget" 2-way.

[curt_c]

Curt,
I may have missed it somewhere in this thread, but I don't see the flared port on your parts list. Is it the 268-350?

Ron
Yes, they are. I like the PE ports better as you can remove the port after the assembly is glued together. The Precision port does not, -but it is significantly less expensive. I just left the inner port off of the Precision port and I've heard no chuffing. -I installed the crossover under the port for easy access.

That said, if you buy 2 PE outside flares, 1 3" tube, and forgo the inner flares it is the same price. -Whichever brand ends up in the kit will be fine..

Out of curiosity, why the RS28? Are the ND140s really that badly in need of a low xover point?
As Brad noted; No, the ND140's are not midrange challenged. The design decisions were made looking to optimize the MTM design for center channel use. Most folks want two things from a center channel that can be polar opposites:

Excellent horizontal off axis response.
A small vertical footprint.

Normal MTM CC's often are often performance compromised with the former criteria. Wt/mW CC's have issues providing the latter. Crossing low, I was able to accommodate both.

Another advantage: While I dropped a few 'extra' bucks on the tweeter choice, I partially recouped those costs with a simpler crossover design. Getting a top shelf tweeter into this design paid off handsomely in the resultant sound quality.

C

[tpremo55]

... I just left the inner port off of the Precision port and I've heard no chuffing. ...
C

I did this with the Cryolites that I brought to the Iowa show last year. I did not get anything out of those either. While I wouldn't do that with an RS225 and bigger, I think we can get away with it on smaller displacement speakers ok.
... Besides, this gave me 4 ports out of that PP kit and almost makes it worth the $$ over other options. :D

[vilacr]

I am still waiting on PE to list these. Need these for my new project.

[JimHRB]

I am still waiting on PE to list these. Need these for my new project.

All the info you need to build them is on this thread. If you don't want to wait for the kit, buy the parts and build them.

[absolootbs]

All the info you need to build them is on this thread. If you don't want to wait for the kit, buy the parts and build them.

the info's here... but the price break isn't. i'm anxiously awaiting PE listing the kit too. if they knock as much off of this one as they did the tritrix, i might not be able to pass it up.

[curt_c]

According to an unnamed inside source, it shouldn't be too much longer for the kits...:D

C

[jeff_free69]

According to an unnamed inside source, it shouldn't be too much longer for the kits...:D

C

new flyer due next week, featured project I bet!

[Pete00t]

I got the new flyer in the mail today. I regretfully say it's project free.

[kmibb]

I got the new flyer in the mail today. I regretfully say it's project free.

Boo.

-1

[petethekiller]

I'm torn on weather to build the tritrix or the aviatrix....
I plan on building a 5.1 set up with towers for the Mains running with the sealed center and surrounds. I will be matching these to a pair of rs12hf-4 based sealed subs. I will most likely will be crossing them at around 50-60 hz. Running the subs, are the aviatrix worth the extra money?

Also if you were to compare the aviatrix to a commercail speaker, which would it be?




Thanks

[curt_c]

I know its hard to buy into a speaker without hearing them, or at least having opinions from more than one source. To rectify this, Rich Taylor has suggested the AviaTrix MLTL be available for auditioning at PE’s Midwest Audio Fest on July 10th. Wayne is at this very moment knocking together the crates to ship the AviaTrix to Springboro. I’d appreciate anyone who has the opportunity to audition them at the speaker competition share their opinions with the forum members.

That said, I’ll share my somewhat questionable opinions….
As good as the TriTrix sounds, the drivers used are just not as sophisticated as the drivers in the AviaTrix. The ND140 and RS28F certainly deliver the goods, yet can still be considered high value drivers. IMHO, and Wayne’s, (the man responsible for the ultimate final voicing), the AviaTrix is well worth the extra expense. They are very listenable, nearly matching the performance (but not quite) of my reference 3 ways. For clean accurate vocals, lack of fatigue, and surprising good bass response, the AviaTrix, in either sealed or MLTL configuration, are a hard act to follow.

As far as commercial designs go, remember first and foremost I’m a DIY’er, and certainly jaded in my opinions of what passes for quality in most commercial designs. For me to consider a commercial design would be like Bobby Flay considering a frozen TV dinner. That said:

When I’ve had the opportunity to hear commercial designs, generally I’ve rarely been impressed, regardless of the price or the highly touted monikers they sport. But every speaker has its strong points and weak points: Let me cover what the AviaTrix doesn’t do:

*Don’t expect them to provide chest pounding bass. There are practical limitations to what small drivers can do in this regard. There is plenty of bass, and surprisingly low bass, but it is a lighter touch, rather than heavy handed.

*They don’t color the sound. Those who like the nice warm sound of paper drivers won’t hear it out of the AviaTrix. They are not sterile by any means, but don’t add much in the way of artificial detail. This will make them a bit more forgiving of poorly recorded material, but not to the point that they cover up the fine detail of a really good recording.

*They don’t have SPL limitations. –Well, within reason. The woofers won’t bottom out at any sane SPL, and the tweeter seems to handle high SPL’s with aplomb, in spite of its low crossover point. I designed these primarily for the HT segment, but my audiophile tendencies caused my optimizing them for music applications as well.

*They aren’t sensitive to vertical placement. As MTM’s some offset in the vertical axis will make little difference in the perceived sound. Likewise, when used as a center channel, they don’t have a significant change in response at any reasonable off axis position.

I hope this helps...

C

[JarOfSonicMen]

Curt,
Sanity check me here. I'm planning an Aviatrix build for my L/C/R in my home theater, while finishing up a couple of Tritrix kits as surrounds for a 7.1 HT system.
The center channel. I could build the sealed version. But I have plenty of space (18x20 living room). I was thinking of building the MLTL version turned sideways as the top of a TV stand/cabinet. This would enforce a minimum of 70" between the L & R speakers, give me a place to put my HT components, and be a bit different than normal.
Assuming that I'm adding a sub for the lows (I'm thinking RSS390s IB into bedroom closets adjoining the living room) is there _any_ benefit to doing the MLTL as the center, other than taking up space and being weird?
Supposing the answer is no, do you see any issues with doing it anyway, just to be weird and/or obnoxious? :)
Now if I could just talk my carpenter friend into cutting the MDF for me, I'd be ready to go...

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

have wayne drop them at my work in council bluff by 10 tuesday morning and ill drop them at pe for you on weds about noon.

[curt_c]

Which Tuesday and Wednesday?

C

[curt_c]

Curt,
Sanity check me here. I'm planning an Aviatrix build for my L/C/R in my home theater, while finishing up a couple of Tritrix kits as surrounds for a 7.1 HT system.
The center channel. I could build the sealed version. But I have plenty of space (18x20 living room). I was thinking of building the MLTL version turned sideways as the top of a TV stand/cabinet. This would enforce a minimum of 70" between the L & R speakers, give me a place to put my HT components, and be a bit different than normal.
Assuming that I'm adding a sub for the lows (I'm thinking RSS390s IB into bedroom closets adjoining the living room) is there _any_ benefit to doing the MLTL as the center, other than taking up space and being weird?
Supposing the answer is no, do you see any issues with doing it anyway, just to be weird and/or obnoxious? :)
Now if I could just talk my carpenter friend into cutting the MDF for me, I'd be ready to go...

Sanity check complete: -And you'll likely be happy to hear that you are not... -But in a good way, of course!

No real issues with the MLTL CC, -and no real advantage either. The driver positions on the baffle with respect to the line (driver offset) need to stay constant, as does the port position. However, what you could do is fold the line once, so it is rear ported, half as wide, and twice as deep. (roughly 22"w by 24"d by 7.5"h)

Now, if you really wanted to be weird, build 2 of these folded MLTL CC's for mains and put them on legs so they masquerade as end tables. -Very 50's Art Deco...

C

[waynew]

have wayne drop them at my work in council bluff by 10 tuesday morning and ill drop them at pe for you on weds about noon.

I didn't catch that offer soon enough Arlis, or I may have saved some expense to do that. That being said, I have been in a hole down south of Papillion on a bridge that I sold, working serious hours, so when I get home, I stumble to bed.

If you would like to catch a listen to the MTM version, let Curt or myself know...I can sure drop them off to you in Council-Tuckey...I'm in Omaha nearly every day...except for next week...I am on vacation with my wife.

Regards,
WayneW

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

i too am on vacation this next week. as my wife is shorthaded at her work, she does not but, i am taking off this next week. i plan on spending a lot of time in the shop building my other speaker. i would love to hear the mtm. i would also like to get my 3-way measured. have car will travel. i did'nt know you were so close.

[waynew]

Obiwan Curtobi and I both live in/near Lincoln. I happen to work up in Omaha alot. We will have to get together some weekend.

WayneW

[tomrip]

hey guys. im wanting to build 3 sets of the aviatrix, and a center. there was talk of these being available in a kit, but i am not seeing them. i alos dont see plans for a center, am i blind and just missing it, or not ready. should i just build tritrix now?

[curt_c]

I don't know when the kits will be ready, but the sealed version of the AviaTrix IS the center channel, and has been optimized to be used on its side as well as vertically.

C

[klocwerk]

hey guys. im wanting to build 3 sets of the aviatrix, and a center. there was talk of these being available in a kit, but i am not seeing them. i alos dont see plans for a center, am i blind and just missing it, or not ready. should i just build tritrix now?

That makes two of us. ;)
Starting to think I should have grabbed the components while the tweeters were on sale for $40 last month.

My only issue is that i can't decide if I want to do the sealed or the TLs for L/R... I have a fairly new sub to handle the lows and not a lot of space after all.
Decisions decisions! :D

[fastbike1]

TL doesn't really take up a lot more space than sealed. The sealed still need to be on a stand to work properly. Floor area still approximately the same, yes?


That makes two of us. ;)

My only issue is that i can't decide if I want to do the sealed or the TLs for L/R... I have a fairly new sub to handle the lows and not a lot of space after all.
Decisions decisions! :D

[john trials]

That makes two of us. ;)
Starting to think I should have grabbed the components while the tweeters were on sale for $40 last month.


If PE makes this kit similar to the Tritrix, the kit price will be way less than the individual components...if you can wait. Individual Tritrix parts were about $180, and then they offered the kit for $120.

[klocwerk]

TL doesn't really take up a lot more space than sealed. The sealed still need to be on a stand to work properly. Floor area still approximately the same, yes?

Sure, but when that stand is currently doubling as your component rack/cabinet and it's flanked by bookshelves... ;)
I'd love to do the TLs but it will necessitate some furniture replacement, which can rapidly drive up the price and the WAF down for any project.

That said, I want to replace our tube with an LCD anyway, and that piece of furniture sucks. :D

[fastbike1]

Sounds like your constraints dictate the sealed versions. It also looks like your imaging is already limited by your placement requirements. No point in wanting different.


Sure, but when that stand is currently doubling as your component rack/cabinet and it's flanked by bookshelves... ;)
I'd love to do the TLs but it will necessitate some furniture replacement, which can rapidly drive up the price and the WAF down for any project.

That said, I want to replace our tube with an LCD anyway, and that piece of furniture sucks. :D

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

consider the sealed first then, when we convince you wife that you HAVE to get a flat screen, move them to surround and get the tl's:D

[JarOfSonicMen]

Build the TL, and buy the LCD "for her"?

Why yes, I am single, how'd you guess? :)

[klocwerk]

consider the sealed first then, when we convince you wife that you HAVE to get a flat screen, move them to surround and get the tl's:D

Now THERE's a fellow married man... thanks bro! :D

[jeff_free69]

consider the sealed first then, when we convince you wife that you HAVE to get a flat screen, move them to surround and get the tl's:D


Pure genius - I don't see how it can miss!

- Ralph Kramden :)

http://www.jackiegleason.com/ralph.html

[absolootbs]

so it looks like i'm gonna have to come to grips with the fact that what i've been hoping for is not going to happen - the driver/crossover kit is most likely not going to be released in time for the tent sale (tomorrow) :(. curt got my hopes up with that teaser back on the 22nd of june (bad, bad curt). i was looking forward to what an unable-to-pass-up deal it would be to have tomorrow's discount in addition to the kit savings.

[richt@daytonaudio.com]

The kit is in progress, and unfortunately will not be available by tent sale, but the combined system kit will be aggressively priced! Give us a week or so longer. We appreciate the patience, because the AviaTrix is an amazing sounding speaker!

[klocwerk]

The kit is in progress, and unfortunately will not be available by tent sale, but the combined system kit will be aggressively priced! Give us a week or so longer. We appreciate the patience, because the AviaTrix is an amazing sounding speaker!

/me sits on his hands so he doesn't buy something else in the meantime. :D

[DIYNut42]

Hey everyone. This is my first post so it will serve double duty lol. First of all: Hello everyone! My name is Ryan, and I'm from Missouri. Just recently got into the DIY speaker building hobby, and I now have a serious addiction lol. Also I wanted to say thanks to Curt for his designs, and advice for new DIYers. Your site helped me to get over my fear of Xovers, and helped me learn what some of the terms used by the pros mean. I decided to dive in head-first and build your TriTrix TL design for my first DIY speaker project, and I was not disappointed the least. I have a lot of patience, and attention to detail so they turned out very appealing to the eyes as well as the ears. I was going to go ahead and build the rest of my 5.1 around this design until I came across this thread. So now I just have to find a spot for my current Trixies so these can take their place lol. I'm in no rush so I may wait for the kit to get the drivers and bits, but I will be building the cabs myself. That being said I have a quick question. If I were to make the baffle just a little wider would that affect the voicing or performance at all of the AviaTrix? I haven’t read too much into baffle diffraction yet so I'm not sure if this would be an issue. The actual design of the cab will remain the same internally, as well as external height (in the case of the floor standers), but I plan on doing something a little different with the sides for my own aesthetic preference. Sorry for the novel, and thanks again.

Ryan

Also could you give a detail about the amount of stuffing you used?

[waynew]

Ryan,

The baffle width can be fudged a bit. More than an inch and a half and I would think you might start running into something in the audible range. As to the stuffing, I want to say that we used about a LB per cabinet (maybe a touch more, but stuffing is usually a personal preference type of thing...keep adding or subtracting until it sounds right to you.

Have fun and post up some photo's

Regards,

WayneW





Hey everyone. This is my first post so it will serve double duty lol. First of all: Hello everyone! My name is Ryan, and I'm from Missouri. Just recently got into the DIY speaker building hobby, and I now have a serious addiction lol. Also I wanted to say thanks to Curt for his designs, and advice for new DIYers. Your site helped me to get over my fear of Xovers, and helped me learn what some of the terms used by the pros mean. I decided to dive in head-first and build your TriTrix TL design for my first DIY speaker project, and I was not disappointed the least. I have a lot of patience, and attention to detail so they turned out very appealing to the eyes as well as the ears. I was going to go ahead and build the rest of my 5.1 around this design until I came across this thread. So now I just have to find a spot for my current Trixies so these can take their place lol. I'm in no rush so I may wait for the kit to get the drivers and bits, but I will be building the cabs myself. That being said I have a quick question. If I were to make the baffle just a little wider would that affect the voicing or performance at all of the AviaTrix? I haven’t read too much into baffle diffraction yet so I'm not sure if this would be an issue. The actual design of the cab will remain the same internally, as well as external height (in the case of the floor standers), but I plan on doing something a little different with the sides for my own aesthetic preference. Sorry for the novel, and thanks again.

Ryan

Also could you give a detail about the amount of stuffing you used?

[DIYNut42]

Thanks Wayne! I only plan on increasing the width about 1.25" total so I should be fine there. I don't plan on starting this build till next month, but I will definitely start a build thread when they are finished.

Ryan

[tomrip]

The kit is in progress, and unfortunately will not be available by tent sale, but the combined system kit will be aggressively priced! Give us a week or so longer. We appreciate the patience, because the AviaTrix is an amazing sounding speaker!

I cant wait my man. i will be making 3 pairs and a center. also eyeing the mk3 15 kit, well actally 2 of those :)

[tomrip]

hey guys i have decided while waiting for the kit i would like to start building the speakers. it seems liek the tritrix curt posted images of a suggested layout for a sheet of mdf. can anyone post something like thius for the mtls, and the centers? i appreciate it in advance, im not omuch a wood workign guy, and if i had that i would be fine. i dont want to waste wood. can you get a pair of mtls out of one piece of mdf or do i need more. thanks. i have to order mdf from my hardware store.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

hey rich, are these still at pe? i was unable to make the party but would love to here them. i will stop by pe this wednesday to buy a few caps and coild and could make time to take a listen if so.

[absolootbs]

speaking of hearing these, i'm surprised that no one else who was at MWAF has commented on the experience. after all, thats the whole reason they were sent all the way there, right? so i guess i'll go ahead and throw in my .02. first things first, i'll be the first to admit that my opinion is far from gospel. i wasn't there friday night, so i only got to hear them the little bit they were played as everything was getting set up, prior to the competition starting. also, my position was less than optimal in the second to last row, and i don't have a super experienced ear in the first place.

HOWEVER, that being said, i thought they sounded really really good. they struck me as being extremely clear and detailed, with nice deep tight lows. comparing them to the exquisite company they were in that day, and knowing how much some of it cost, i would think they're probably a great value at their regular price, and will be that much more-so once the kit's released.

physically, i was struck by how much i thought the pictures don't do justice conveying their diminutive (for a floor-stander) size. or maybe i'm just bad at visualizing something even when i know its dimensions... who knows. either way, they're a very slim, unintrusive speaker that would be perfectly at home even in smaller listening spaces. i wouldn't be the slightest bit hesitant to have them in my 13' x 15' living room, and thats not something you'll hear me say about many floorstanders.

so, congratulations to curt and wayne on yet another great sounding, sure-to-be-successful design. now that i've started the ball rolling, maybe some other attendees (with better qualified opinions) can chime in and tell us if i'm crazy or not.

ps - arlis, if rich contacts you in some way other than this thread let me know. depending on what time you'd be there wednesday, i could possibly join you for that listen.

[Wolf]

See my 'virtual walkaround' thread for my opinion...
Wolf

[petethekiller]

I'm still waiting for the PE Aviatrix kits...All of my other projects are on hold untill they are available. Do we know if the knock down kits are going to be transmission line boxes or ported? What would be the difference in performance between the two?

[waynew]

Pete,

I imagine that the knock downs will be the ported version.

That's my best guess, and you cannot hold me to it ;P

WayneW

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

hi wayne. are your aviatrix still in springboro?

[curt_c]

The main difference between the two designs, besides the physical size, is the bass extension. All other attributes will essentially be the same.

They still should be in PE's possession.

C

[petethekiller]

The main difference between the two designs, besides the physical size, is the bass extension. All other attributes will essentially be the same.

They still should be in PE's possession.

C

Pardon my ignorance, but which design would have better bass extension?

[kmibb]

Pardon my ignorance, but which design would have better bass extension?

The TL. A ported or TL design will always get better bass extension than it's sealed counterpart AFAIK.

Kevin

[curt_c]

In a near 2pi environment, (Speakers well away from the front wall.) the MLTL has an f3 of around 40 Hz, while the sealed has an f3 of around 60 Hz. Moving the speakers closer to the wall audibly increases both the system sensitivity and the low end capability of both versions, at the expense of a shallower soundstage depth, which shouldn’t be an issue in HT applications. The sealed version when moved very near the wall, will reproduce 40 Hz tones quite well, but 30 Hz tones are attenuated. Again, this should not be an issue for HT applications and with a properly integrated sub, should provide a full range experience.


While I intended the AviaTrix to be a useful product for HT applications, my 2 channel audiophile roots made sure it preformed well in far wall applications as well. This is a serious musical speaker that is also optimized to perform well in an HT setting. With the low tweeter tuning, the voicing can be easily adjusted to most any wall distance/environment by adjusting the amount of tweeter attenuation.

IMO, there should be no distinction between HT and music speakers.

C

[waynew]

Arlis,

The Towers are with PE. Curt and I still have the Sealed MTM's. We will be waiting to see if we need to ship those off to PE as well. Should you like to hear them, fire off a PM to Curt, they are at his place.

[curt_c]

I have just been informed the component kit of the SEALED version of the AviaTrix will be released very shortly, and at a discounted price I'm sure will be appreciated by all. The first knock down kit will also be of the sealed version, and is in the works.

The crossovers for the sealed and MLTL are very similar with the sealed having 2 additional 500 uF NPE caps for the capacitive loading of the woofers. Just leave them out if you want to build the MLTL.

Thank you all for patiently waiting while we worked through the details...

C

[DIYNut42]

Thank you very much for keeping everyone posted. I've already started my cabs for the MLTL version. My buddy was happy to take my old TriTrix towers off my hands as a gift lol.

[Wembley2000]

Hello All,

I have been waiting for these kits to come out, these will be my first DIY speakers and I will be building a 7 speaker system with the 5 sealed and 2 ported. I already have the subs to go with them, so I don't have to worry about the low end.

I was wondering how these would stack up to my polk Monitor 70 mains and CS2 center. I will be using these exclusive for home theater, and was actually thinking of the mini-statements but I do not have the room behind that I need for those.

Thanks Curt and Wanye for all your guys work for us DIY'ers.

Wem

[Brent_S]

Yes, they are. I like the PE ports better as you can remove the port after the assembly is glued together. The Precision port does not, -but it is significantly less expensive. I just left the inner port off of the Precision port and I've heard no chuffing. -I installed the crossover under the port for easy access.
{snip}
C

Curt, can you elaborate a little? The Precision inner flare diameter is smaller than the outer flare. PSP's install directions specifically say to size the cutout to the diameter of the inner flare, glue the tube and flares together and drop through the cutout. Worked fine for the 4" versions I've used. Could you have gotten a mispacked kit with the same flare for both ends?

-Brent

[gye]

I have just been informed the component kit of the SEALED version of the AviaTrix will be released very shortly, and at a discounted price I'm sure will be appreciated by all. The first knock down kit will also be of the sealed version, and is in the works.

The crossovers for the sealed and MLTL are very similar with the sealed having 2 additional 500 uF NPE caps for the capacitive loading of the woofers. Just leave them out if you want to build the MLTL.

Thank you all for patiently waiting while we worked through the details...

C

Do you know if they're planning to offer a 3-speaker kit? I'm looking at an L-C-R set for my first DIY project.

Thank you.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

Do you know if they're planning to offer a 3-speaker kit? I'm looking at an L-C-R set for my first DIY project.

Thank you.

in other words a half kit?
i was by pe wednesday and asked if they were still there. i was told no by a young lady. i just thought it might be good if one more person could opine about the sq. i should have asked if mike was around. i dont really need to build any of them but trying to talk a friend into lcr plus surrounds. 5.1. i did at least pick up a bunch of caps a few coils and 32 magnets.

and the beat goes on.

[curt_c]

I was wondering how these would stack up to my polk Monitor 70 mains and CS2 center. I will be using these exclusive for home theater, and was actually thinking of the mini-statements but I do not have the room behind that I need for those.
I suspect you haven't had a response as no one has heard both the Polks and the AviaTrix together for comparison. Most posters here don't go in for commercial designs for obvious (to us, anyway) reasons, so you may just have to try them and see for yourself. The 70's have four 6.5" mid/woofers, so I'd guess the AviaTrix may outshine them in resolution and subtlety, but perhaps not raw bass...


Curt, can you elaborate a little? The Precision inner flare diameter is smaller than the outer flare. PSP's install directions specifically say to size the cutout to the diameter of the inner flare, glue the tube and flares together and drop through the cutout. Worked fine for the 4" versions I've used. Could you have gotten a mispacked kit with the same flare for both ends?
The 3" PSP inner flare doesn't have mounting holes, and it is smaller than the outer flare, but not by much. If you made the through hole large enough for the inner flare, there would be no material left to attach the screws to. Jim Holtz had this same issue when he used the 3" PSP ports in one of the Statement designs, and ended up cutting flats on the inner flare to allow it to fit through the vent hole. Connecting it to the tube from the inside was something of a challenge, as I recall.

C

[jonasz]

Curt, how would I have to change the crossover to get same response from both speakers with my RS28F's? My "problem" is described in this thread: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=218741

If the spl is higher, I guess it's bc one of the domes are a little lighter than the other one, does this also effect FS? I guess BL would be very similar between the two tweeters so the difference is in the soft parts.

:)

[waynew]

Curt, how would I have to change the crossover to get same response from both speakers with my RS28F's? My "problem" is described in this thread: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=218741

If the spl is higher, I guess it's bc one of the domes are a little lighter than the other one, does this also effect FS? I guess BL would be very similar between the two tweeters so the difference is in the soft parts.

:)

If you can test them, I would break them in, and then test the T/S to make sure that they are off after a suitable break in period. That being said, I would build your cross-overs the same because odds are that the tolerance differences in the cross-over parts may mitigate any difference in the sensitivity of tweeters. You may also find that you won't hear a difference when it is all said and done. If a difference is noticable, a little extra resistance on the more efficient tweeter should take care of the problem.

[jonasz]

Thanks Wayne!

[Wembley2000]

Thanks Curt!

I wish I would have gotten into DIY a few years ago, could of saved some serious cash, it amazing the value you can get. I am excited for these kits to come out, I was about to settle on the tritrix but then I came across these and I have been waiting for the kit to come out to save a bit more money. I am going to build the mains (ported) and center first then work on the other 4for surrounds. I will cross them all at 80, I have an SVSpb12nsd, and 2 BFM tht's for subs in an 16x21x7.5' dedicated home theater, epson 1080ub projector, and an onkyo 606 reciever. Can't Wait!

Wem

[klocwerk]

Thanks Curt!

I wish I would have gotten into DIY a few years ago, could of saved some serious cash, it amazing the value you can get. I am excited for these kits to come out, I was about to settle on the tritrix but then I came across these and I have been waiting for the kit to come out to save a bit more money. I am going to build the mains (ported) and center first then work on the other 4for surrounds. I will cross them all at 80, I have an SVSpb12nsd, and 2 BFM tht's for subs in an 16x21x7.5' dedicated home theater, epson 1080ub projector, and an onkyo 606 reciever. Can't Wait!

Wem

2x THT's for subs? Yeow, talk about overkill... :D

[Wembley2000]

I like to think of it as headroom..:D. Why build one when you can have 2 for twice the price?

Still waiting on the kits...........

[LoveDoctor]

Curt/Wayne, as built so far, the tweeter is centered along the midline. Any thoughts on offsetting the tweeter, perhaps 3/4"? I know there won't be a huge audible difference, but should I build my L/C/Rs with an offset, I'd like to know I'm not violating any golden design parameters. Most listening will be on-axis (speakers probably placed orthagonal to room walls), but others in the room will be off axis (my sweetspot seat shall not be trespassed upon).

Also, in your original blueprints for the enclosure, the woofers appear spaced a bit further apart from the final build, although that may be an artifact of smaller cutouts visible in the drawing vs. actual speaker flange size. I would assume that closer spacing is generally a good thing, even with the low crossover frequency.

[klocwerk]

Curt/Wayne, as built so far, the tweeter is centered along the midline. Any thoughts on offsetting the tweeter, perhaps 3/4"? I know there won't be a huge audible difference, but should I build my L/C/Rs with an offset, I'd like to know I'm not violating any golden design parameters. Most listening will be on-axis (speakers probably placed orthagonal to room walls), but others in the room will be off axis (my sweetspot seat shall not be trespassed upon).

Also, in your original blueprints for the enclosure, the woofers appear spaced a bit further apart from the final build, although that may be an artifact of smaller cutouts visible in the drawing vs. actual speaker flange size. I would assume that closer spacing is generally a good thing, even with the low crossover frequency.

The crossover they designed accounts for the BSC required for a centered tweeter, you'd have to redesign the xover if you change the placement.

[LoveDoctor]

The crossover they designed accounts for the BSC required for a centered tweeter, you'd have to redesign the xover if you change the placement.

I could be quite mistaken, but I was under the impression that BSC was a function of the woofers' passband, and the placement of the tweeter mainly dealt with diffraction effects and off-axis response.

[Wolf]

Diffraction is part of the BSC issue. They are involved with each other. BSC can involve all three drivers, as you will have to attenuate the tweeter to match with the transition from 2pi to 4pi space. The offset tweeter minimizes the impact of the diffraction/baffle signature, but it doesn't really do anything to control the off-axis in the top-octave. It does involve where the xover normally is to not get a dip off-axis.

Moving the tweeter in this particular design would be kinda moot. Since the xover is about 1kHz, where most baffle widths see the spike in diffraction ripple, the xover and drivers take that into an advantage standpoint. You don't have to move the RS28F, and the design would need adjusted if you did.

Later,
Wolf

[curt_c]

+1 on Wolf's post.
Since they were designed to be listened to off-axis, when listened to off-axis, there is no inherent advantage in offsetting the tweeters.

Currently I have them running with the 'near wall' crossover and within about 6" of the front wall. In this application, I actually, prefer their sound when toed in a bit...

Not surprisingly, with close wall placement the low end is extended. They do justice to material in the 40 Hz range.

Consider toe-in another 'tweak' for optimum sound depending on the room placement and crossover resistor choice.

C

[LoveDoctor]

Diffraction is part of the BSC issue. They are involved with each other. BSC can involve all three drivers, as you will have to attenuate the tweeter to match with the transition from 2pi to 4pi space. The offset tweeter minimizes the impact of the diffraction/baffle signature, but it doesn't really do anything to control the off-axis in the top-octave. It does involve where the xover normally is to not get a dip off-axis.


Gotcha. I'll leave this stuff to the pros (in the DIY sense) and a centered tweeter it shall be.

[tomrip]

wayne. How many sheets of mdf needed for the towers. And how many for a pair of the sealed for making a pair of centers

[waynew]

wayne. How many sheets of mdf needed for the towers. And how many for a pair of the sealed for making a pair of centers

Aaaaaah. I am trying to remember...seems to me that it took about a sheet and a half. As I recall, I bought MDF for the Towers and the MTM's at the same time, and I think I went with 2 sheets, plus a couple of left overs to get all 4 speakers. The easiest way to figure it out is to scale it out....draw out the the pieces on paper to see what will fit on a 4x8 sheet of MDF.


Have fun!

WayneW

[JarOfSonicMen]

Aaaaaah. I am trying to remember...seems to me that it took about a sheet and a half. As I recall, I bought MDF for the Towers and the MTM's at the same time, and I think I went with 2 sheets, plus a couple of left overs to get all 4 speakers. The easiest way to figure it out is to scale it out....draw out the the pieces on paper to see what will fit on a 4x8 sheet of MDF.


Have fun!

WayneW

Wow, it's so rare I get to be of any actual help...
Cut out a pair of each yesterday (OK, I watched my friend do it). 2 towers=1 full sheet. Absolutely BRILLIANT sizing, slick as a whistle.

The sealeds, depends on which size you're building, but since you have to buy one full sheet, might as well make it 2 full sheets. The sealed ones don't take up a lot of the second sheet.

[petethekiller]

I have a question about the CC, I plan on buying 2 Aviatrix kits and 1 Tritrix kit in the next couple of days once I figure out exactly what I want. I am going to built two towers and a sealed center Avaitrix and two sealed surround Tritrix units. This will leave enough parts to build one more Aviatrix....

I was thinking of taking the extra ND-140's and installing 4 of them in the center channel...mmTmm

Being a total rookie....what changes would I have to make to the X/O to make this work or am I opening a can of worms?

Thanks

[curt_c]

A quick model shows the horizontal off axis response would be considerably worse with the extra two woofers flanking the tweeter. The center to center spacing is just too far apart for the crossover frequency.

C

[tomrip]

I didn't think the aviatrix kits where available. Did I miss there release?

[john trials]

I didn't think the aviatrix kits where available. Did I miss there release?


PE had them last week. I would think they would have announced them with more fanfare, though. I just tried the 'search' feature at the PE home site, and it found nothing. Follow this link:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=218919

[dougjohnson]

This will leave enough parts to build one more Aviatrix....

I've been thinking about building an Aviatrix CC. I could take those parts off your hands...

-- Doug

[petethekiller]

I've been thinking about building an Aviatrix CC. I could take those parts off your hands...

-- Doug

Sure!!! I'll order the kits in the morning, would $125 for the parts for the CC be ok? I'll split shipping with ya...

[curt_c]

I took a few measurements of the sealed version of the AviaTrix weekend. The top response plot is measured on the design axis with the mic at roughly 1.5 meters. The speaker was in a vertical orientation with the mic offset laterally about 10 degrees. The slightly lower top end response is intentional and compensates for the typically higher room reflections at those frequencies.

The measured impedance is similar to the MLTL version, and I’ll still call it a six ohm impedance. The impedance remains above 8 ohm above 350 Hz, and the worst combination of phase and resistance is at 100 Hz with a -45 degree phase, but is paired with a 7 ohm resistance. This speaker should be an easy load for just about any amplifier to drive.

The bottom plot is the horizontal off-axis performance when orientated on its side, as a center channel. The mic was also 1.5 meters away, and a few inches above the tweeter, simulating the speaker being placed above or below the screen. Thanks to the low crossover point, most all the response variations are below 1000 Hz. As you can see, at angles of up to 30 degrees off axis, the response remains reasonably unchanged. I included the plots at 45 and 60 degrees off axis, not because I expect anyone to sit that far off axis, but to demonstrate the response won’t fall completely apart if they do.

I suppose the more pertinent question is: How does the AviaTrix compare with a conventional Wt/mW 3 way center channel with a vertical orientation of the mid and tweeter? To address this question, I looked at the modeled off-axis response of the Statement Center Channel. While I don’t show it here, in the 500 to 1000 Hz area, it exhibits a similar response deviation as the AviaTrix but with only about half the deviation in response from nominal. However, the Statement CC also shows response deviation of up to 5 dB (albeit at 60 degrees off axis) below the ribbon passband that is not exhibited by the Aviatrix. This is due to the changes in response directivity of the midrange, and is in general, an artifact of the 3 way design topology, although a tweeter capable of a lower crossover would mitigate this significantly. At listening angles below 30 degrees off-axis, the Statement CC driver topology edges out the AviaTrix in response deviation, -but the race was closer than many might think...

C
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10115&stc=1&d=1280807539

[dougjohnson]

Sure!!! I'll order the kits in the morning, would $125 for the parts for the CC be ok? I'll split shipping with ya...

PM sent. Short answer -- Sure!!!.

-- Doug

[giverago]

Hey, quick question where can I find the plans / diagram for the Aviatrix MLTL cabinet thanks in advanced.

[petethekiller]

Hey, quick question where can I find the plans / diagram for the Aviatrix MLTL cabinet thanks in advanced.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=216432

[parodielin]

For the sealed cabinets, is there any internal bracing used?

This might have been asked before, but for the stuffing PE supplies, what's the guidelines of applying? Like how much in a sealed box.

[waynew]

On the sealed cabinets, I think I put one brace and offset it from the tweeter a bit. Standard closet rod type of brace...top to bottom, should do the trick.

WayneW.

P.S. - Feel free to add a couple of braces if you like!

[curt_c]

This might have been asked before, but for the stuffing PE supplies, what's the guidelines of applying? Like how much in a sealed box.

Start out with 8 oz. of Acousta-stuff. Leave a few inches of open space behind the midwoofers to breath. Add or subtract as whimsy leads you...

C

[absolootbs]

just wanted to say congrats to curt and wayne on having the aviatrix featured as a full 2 page spread in the upcoming PE flyer. you guys deserve it!

also, as long as i'm writing a post for this thread... wayne, what is the finish you used on the cabinets for these? when i saw the towers in person at MWAF, i remember thinking how much i liked the nice "soft" look they had to them. some kind of oil rub, perhaps?

[waynew]

just wanted to say congrats to curt and wayne on having the aviatrix featured as a full 2 page spread in the upcoming PE flyer. you guys deserve it!

also, as long as i'm writing a post for this thread... wayne, what is the finish you used on the cabinets for these? when i saw the towers in person at MWAF, i remember thinking how much i liked the nice "soft" look they had to them. some kind of oil rub, perhaps?

Actually, the finish is Zar brand stain (I custom mix my own blends), and I like to break the rules a bit. I clear coat directly after staining. I mean, directly after. Once I wipe the cabinets down (making sure that there is no dust or excess stain), I get to work on the clear coat. I used minwax poly in semi-gloss. I have found that on oak, walnut, hickory, and cherry, the clear coat covers better and dries more evenly if I get it laid down before the stain is dry. The downside is that it takes longer for it to dry, because the stain has to dry with it...but for whatever reason, it works with Zar stains. After the initial dry, I recoat as necessary to get it to the proper sheen. To my eyes, it leaves some of the grain apparant, but with enough shine to catch the eye. I don't care for the "coated in plastic" look of a really heavy clear coat job. I like to be able to feel a bit of the grain when I touch it as well. That isn't to say that I won't do a high build lacquer clear coat job everynow and again, but I really like to see the wood, not my reflection....I think the wood is better looking (most would agree, I am sure!)

WayneW

[absolootbs]

Actually, the finish is Zar brand stain (I custom mix my own blends), and I like to break the rules a bit. I clear coat directly after staining. I mean, directly after. Once I wipe the cabinets down (making sure that there is no dust or excess stain), I get to work on the clear coat. I used minwax poly in semi-gloss. I have found that on oak, walnut, hickory, and cherry, the clear coat covers better and dries more evenly if I get it laid down before the stain is dry. The downside is that it takes longer for it to dry, because the stain has to dry with it...but for whatever reason, it works with Zar stains. After the initial dry, I recoat as necessary to get it to the proper sheen. To my eyes, it leaves some of the grain apparant, but with enough shine to catch the eye. I don't care for the "coated in plastic" look of a really heavy clear coat job. I like to be able to feel a bit of the grain when I touch it as well. That isn't to say that I won't do a high build lacquer clear coat job everynow and again, but I really like to see the wood, not my reflection....I think the wood is better looking (most would agree, I am sure!)

WayneW

wow, that was a gloss poly? must not have been many coats because, yea, i didn't notice any of the "wet" or "plastic" look you usually get from gloss poly. sprayed on or wiped on? i always wipe my poly's and any time i've put poly on without giving the stain enough time to dry, i've found most of the stain ends up on the cloth i'm using to wipe the poly. any issues with that for you, using your "one right after the other" method? i'm actually also surprised there was stain on there in the first place. both the walnut and the hickory looked so much like their natural selves to me. either way... great work!

[waynew]

Sprayed on poly. 3 or 4 very light coats, I don't remember which. Spray on works the best for me. Otherwise I brush on with a really high quality brush, or use a foam brush, but then you have to do one side at a time. Spray is much faster, but you have to come back and knock down the overspray without killing the sheen.

[parodielin]

Start out with 8 oz. of Acousta-stuff. Leave a few inches of open space behind the midwoofers to breath. Add or subtract as whimsy leads you...

C

Curt,

So it basically looks like the MTL version as you posted in the first message. Should I "loosely" stuff them or "tightly" stuff them, if you know what I mean. I never stuff speakers before. I've always lining walls with foams, so... Now I feel myself a bit splitting the hair...

Also, I just noticed that PE gave a 5 lbs bag - that's 80 oz... How.....Wow....