stuck between two brands for car audio.

[Mike E]

Right now im looking at Cadence and MB Quartz 5.25 Component for my car. the one thing that is bothering me a bit, all the MB's use a polypropylene. the Cadence that im looking at uses a Kevlar Fiber Composite Pulp Cone. would you go simply based on cone material? which would you choose if both were the same brand? Does brand really matter? both are on sale and the MB's are about $20 more. MB's MSRP is also $289 vs Cadence at $199, would $100 in MSRP really be difference in SQ?

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_20823_Cadence_ZRS55KS.aspx
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_16687_MB_Quart_RUA_213.aspx

[joeybutts]

I used to have MB way back when. They are nice but VERY bright. Haven't heard much of Cadence except for their amplifiers. Supposed to be nice for the dollars.

Have you looked at something like DLS or eD or HAT, etc?

[HareBrained]

Right now im looking at Cadence and MB Quartz 5.25 Component for my car. the one thing that is bothering me a bit, all the MB's use a polypropylene. the Cadence that im looking at uses a Kevlar Fiber Composite Pulp Cone. would you go simply based on cone material? which would you choose if both were the same brand? Does brand really matter? both are on sale and the MB's are about $20 more. MB's MSRP is also $289 vs Cadence at $199, would $100 in MSRP really be difference in SQ?

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_20823_Cadence_ZRS55KS.aspx
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_16687_MB_Quart_RUA_213.aspx

And the correct answer is .... neither. MBQ is no longer the company it was and Cadence has never been the company MBQ use to be. They're still overpriced "on sale". Cone material isn't that important as most can sound good. Brand is important because it tells you (somewhat) what you're going to get.

Are you going to be using a separate amp? Are you going to be using a subwoofer? How much are you wiling to pay?

You're going to get far more value from Zaph's ZA5 Auto (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8768) set if you're using an external amp and sub. If you can fit a 6.5", the eD sets (http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_23_127) are great. If you want "name" brand, the Pioneer PRS (http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_17069_Pioneer_Premier_TS-C520PRS.aspx) are great. If those are too rich, Diamond Audio has some very good consistency across their line.

[Mike E]

I used to have MB way back when. They are nice but VERY bright. Haven't heard much of Cadence except for their amplifiers. Supposed to be nice for the dollars.

Have you looked at something like DLS or eD or HAT, etc?

who? i need them to be slim mount 5.25's, something like 2in and under.


And the correct answer is .... neither. MBQ is no longer the company it was and Cadence has never been the company MBQ use to be. They're still overpriced "on sale". Cone material isn't that important as most can sound good. Brand is important because it tells you (somewhat) what you're going to get.

Are you going to be using a separate amp? Are you going to be using a subwoofer? How much are you wiling to pay?

You're going to get far more value from Zaph's ZA5 Auto (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8768) set if you're using an external amp and sub. If you can fit a 6.5", the eD sets (http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_23_127) are great. If you want "name" brand, the Pioneer PRS (http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_17069_Pioneer_Premier_TS-C520PRS.aspx) are great. If those are too rich, Diamond Audio has some very good consistency across their line.

between the two though which would you take? i need to look at those pioneers and the eD 5.25's to see how slim they are. i am kinda worried about price, not much over $100. i will be adding amps when i get the chance, the 540i i have comes with a DSp+amp option. not the best amp ic's used but the biggest SQ improvement that i can do right now is the speakers. some cheap nokia speakers, the subwoofer as they call it is 2 DVC 5.25in in a bandpass box with 80hz and lower filtered out. the amps i plan to use are gonna be 50watt RMS and the sub i plan to go with is getting either 100 or 200.

[emrliquidlife]

Try heading over to diymobileaudio.com

Check out the classifieds section. Those guys go through speakers like it was a job. If you chose MBQ, I'd go with a Q series driver. If you can, build a MDF speaker ring for the mount.

Ed

[Mike E]

i take it "Clif Designs" isnt very good either then? i havent been able to find any comments on them on forums.

[Ray Tremblay]

Mike, I'll try my best to put things into perspective.....

The Alpine F1 Status (http://www.alpinef1status.com/e/products/items/spx-z15m.html) kit is considered to be the absolute best 2-way car audio component set ever made. The bad news is..............it's RIDICULOUSLY expensive.

The good news is....... Zaph Audio's ZA5 AutoSound (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8768) kit isn't far behind, and it's a fraction of the cost.

[lunchmoney]

Mike, I'll try my best to put things into perspective.....

The Alpine F1 Status (http://www.alpinef1status.com/e/products/items/spx-z15m.html) kit is considered to be the absolute best 2-way car audio component set ever made. The bad news is..............it's RIDICULOUSLY expensive.

The good news is....... Zaph Audio's ZA5 AutoSound (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8768) kit isn't far behind, and it's a fraction of the cost.

Those Alpine cones look a lot like Scanspeak cones... any connection there?

[joeybutts]

Wow. Only 2in of depth? can you bump out the mount any? I had to bump out the e9.65i's about an inch to get them in my doors....

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb219/joeybutts/8663_791.jpg

[Steve]

Mike-
I was a car stereo installer for about 5 years.In my opinion,the Pioneer PRS are the best value going(it's what I use in my car).If you need some very shallow speakers,Diamonds are about as thin as you can get and the sound is awsome.I would suggest that you go to local dealers and listen to what they have and make a choice by what they sound like,not on cone material.

Lunchmoney-
Good eye! Alpine F1's are made by Scanspeak.

Steve:)

[ligs]

My impression is car speakers and car audio in general are much larger in sales(and profits) than home audio. Is this true? In addition, there is a positive trend that car speakers have significantly improved sound quality over the years. My 08 Carmy LE factory sound system has much better sound than my earlier generation Camry, especially in the mid and high frequency range.

[captainobvious99]

Those Alpine cones look a lot like Scanspeak cones... any connection there?

The connection is that they ARE Scan speak drivers ;) Made for Alpine. They also made them a ring radiator tweeter for the set as well.





Any pair of speakers in a car is only going to be as good as the installation and tuning. I run a full range plus midbass combo that cost less that $180 and sounds better than all the car systems ive heard in the area. When you take the time to select the proper drivers for your installation, you can have a very good sounding system.

[Mike E]

Mike, I'll try my best to put things into perspective.....

The Alpine F1 Status (http://www.alpinef1status.com/e/products/items/spx-z15m.html) kit is considered to be the absolute best 2-way car audio component set ever made. The bad news is..............it's RIDICULOUSLY expensive.

The good news is....... Zaph Audio's ZA5 AutoSound (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8768) kit isn't far behind, and it's a fraction of the cost.
hmmm dont see top mounting depth for Zaph's 5in. im tring to be reasonable here i think $100 -/+ is a upgrade over the cheap stuff in my car right now.


Wow. Only 2in of depth? can you bump out the mount any? I had to bump out the e9.65i's about an inch to get them in my doors....

i would like to use the stock pod's in the car for the speakers to mount to. i dont have the skill to make something custom. there was one guy that made custom fiberglass pods to mount 6.5in's in the car but they cost, more then i want to spend.


Mike-
I was a car stereo installer for about 5 years.In my opinion,the Pioneer PRS are the best value going(it's what I use in my car).If you need some very shallow speakers,Diamonds are about as thin as you can get and the sound is awsome.I would suggest that you go to local dealers and listen to what they have and make a choice by what they sound like,not on cone material.

Lunchmoney-
Good eye! Alpine F1's are made by Scanspeak.

Steve:)
i might do that but they want some money if i buy from them. like to by the audio stuff online since it is much cheaper. last time i bought speakers based on cone material was some Polk MM650's and i dont regret buying them. love the way they sound in my truck, but now its the car's turn.


Any pair of speakers in a car is only going to be as good as the installation and tuning. I run a full range plus midbass combo that cost less that $180 and sounds better than all the car systems ive heard in the area. When you take the time to select the proper drivers for your installation, you can have a very good sounding system.

this is so true and im using the stock locations in the car. it is setup as a 3way up front. i cant find a mid that will work in the 2in dia size, there is one from cadance but it looks like the mounting depth is to large. im going to wind up making it a two way. gonna either modify the DSP amp to bypass the built in audo amps and use the built in electric XO(if i can find a mid). either that or i will just remove the DSP-AMP all together and use the passive XO. mount the tweet where the mid is and should be good to go.

thanks guys!

[HareBrained]

i take it "Clif Designs" isnt very good either then? i havent been able to find any comments on them on forums.

I have to admit to running CD's in my car right now. But they're from '96, when they were the venerable Vifa D26 & P17. I'm not familiar with their current offering. The Diamond Audio I have heard and are a solid set.

Here is a unique set at Zalytron (http://www.zalytron.com/). Spin down to the Frugal 5. It's a JMLab 5.25" woofer and Focal TN44 tweeter with assembled xover. I've heard the tweeter and it's fairly mellow. The woofer looks to be a decent driver but the frame looks a little flimsy. But for what you're asking for, the $119/pr is unbeatable.

Lastly, I've heard the Polk db series and they're not great but I believe still a good value when you can get them on sale.

[Wolf]

While the F1 is one of the best, in that spectrum, Focal's 'CrossBlock' Beryllium 3-way is probably better, with infinite tunability.

If it was me, I'd probably get the HiVi F6/planar components from Madisound.
Later,
Wolf

[Ray Tremblay]

While the F1 is one of the best, in that spectrum, Focal's 'CrossBlock' Beryllium 3-way is probably better, with infinite tunability.


Wolf, have you seen the Alpine F1 3-way (http://www.alpine-europe.com/fileadmin/images/MainNavigation/Products/Product_pics/17_F1Status/SPXZ18T/productpic_SPXZ18T_01.jpg)?

[Wolf]

Wolf, have you seen the Alpine F1 3 way (http://www.alpine-europe.com/fileadmin/images/MainNavigation/Products/Product_pics/17_F1Status/SPXZ18T/productpic_SPXZ18T_01.jpg)?

Yes I have.
Wolf

[Ray Tremblay]

Wolf, I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this matter. Do you think that Focal makes better drivers than Scan Speak? Or do you think it's the crossover that gives the Focal system the edge?

[Wolf]

Wolf, I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this matter. Do you think that Focal makes better drivers than Scan Speak? Or do you think it's the crossover that gives the Focal system the edge?

Actually, I like both SS and Focal. Some of the best mids I've heard have been Focal Polykevlar or SS-Rev.

I think the CrossBlok has the leading edge for adaptability for different interiors. It allows the customization of every different install, while you can't adjust/adapt the F1-Status 3-way components.

If you want it done right, and suited to you, you either have to build your own xover and measure in-car, or get the one that can adapt to your circumstances.
Later,
Wolf

[emrliquidlife]

i might do that but they want some money if i buy from them. like to by the audio stuff online since it is much cheaper. last time i bought speakers based on cone material was some Polk MM650's and i dont regret buying them. love the way they sound in my truck, but now its the car's turn.



this is so true and im using the stock locations in the car. it is setup as a 3way up front. i cant find a mid that will work in the 2in dia size, there is one from cadance but it looks like the mounting depth is to large. im going to wind up making it a two way. gonna either modify the DSP amp to bypass the built in audo amps and use the built in electric XO(if i can find a mid). either that or i will just remove the DSP-AMP all together and use the passive XO. mount the tweet where the mid is and should be good to go.

thanks guys!

You and I must have the same ear, I too like the woven carbon sound. It all started years back when I heard the Altec Lansing carbon fiber drivers. Currently I have the Polk MM6500 set in my car. That may be an option for you. Don't know the depth though. If you do go that route, take note that the tweeters in this set need some time to burn in. They start out quite bright, but settle in with some time.

About the trim ring. Getting away from a plastic mount is a good step to a better midbass. Plenty of stores and even people will make you trim rings so you can expand your ability to mount more drivers. Plus, you put some clay on the MDF mounting ring and you can dampen some of the vibrations.

Good luck.

[Mike E]

You and I must have the same ear, I too like the woven carbon sound. It all started years back when I heard the Altec Lansing carbon fiber drivers. Currently I have the Polk MM6500 set in my car. That may be an option for you. Don't know the depth though. If you do go that route, take note that the tweeters in this set need some time to burn in. They start out quite bright, but settle in with some time.

About the trim ring. Getting away from a plastic mount is a good step to a better midbass. Plenty of stores and even people will make you trim rings so you can expand your ability to mount more drivers. Plus, you put some clay on the MDF mounting ring and you can dampen some of the vibrations.

Good luck.
bit ironic you say that, cause i own some Altec Lansing carbon fiber speakers. the voice of the highway two sets, one 2way 6.5in coax and 6x9 way. both need to be re-foamed and my Altec Lansing 55 mini-indoor/outdoor speakers(re-foaming as well). then there is the i think AL 105's, bookshelf 2way with polymide tweeter and 6.5in carbon fiber mid-woofer. the 2way bookshelfs sound really nice imo, best speakers i have heard so far. though that doesnt say much since i havent listened to-to many speakers. im still a AL fan, thought about buying some of the redone CF line they have over at AltecMM.com under the home audio section.

[emrliquidlife]

bit ironic you say that, cause i own some Altec Lansing carbon fiber speakers. the voice of the highway two sets, one 2way 6.5in coax and 6x9 way. both need to be re-foamed and my Altec Lansing 55 mini-indoor/outdoor speakers(re-foaming as well). then there is the i think AL 105's, bookshelf 2way with polymide tweeter and 6.5in carbon fiber mid-woofer. the 2way bookshelfs sound really nice imo, best speakers i have heard so far. though that doesnt say much since i havent listened to-to many speakers. im still a AL fan, thought about buying some of the redone CF line they have over at AltecMM.com under the home audio section.

Memory lane. I started off with the Altec Lansing 6X9, that had a square tweeter mount. This had two tweeters on it. With some power, those 6X9 could hit. I then went to the 5.25 set. I too still have my drivers, tweeters and crossovers. In fact, I often search ebay and CL hoping to find some more mids as I blew one of the voice coils in the 5.25 set, and both of the surrounds have long given up the ghost. The surround material seemed to be some type of plastic/rubbery type of material. I'd love to have that set going again. The transient snap was unreal. At the time, the warranty was awesome. I seem to remember a 3 year warranty. I ruined one driver, and with by returning them to an authorized dealer I got a whole new set, whole new box. Hardest part was finding someone who was an authorized dealer.

I heard some rumor that at a time there was quite a bit of old stock, but a warehouse fire burned up a large amount of inventory, such that the early 90s speakers are now unobtanium.

I know there are other companies that use the woven concept. One is quite good. I recall hearing some Phass drivers from Japan. Cost wise, it was hugely expensive.

Going over to the MB Quarts, I have an assortment of drivers from the years, and some 4 different tweeters covering a span of time from 88 ish to present from the higher end of the line. I keep thinking that I'm going to swap out the Polks in my car, but I'll sit and listen and realize, I don't know that it will get better. So I guess the Quarts stay around for nostalgia sake, just like the Altec Lansing gear I have.

If I could put forward another piece of equipment....I am a huge fan of the Audessy eq'ing that is available in the Alpine line.

Good luck with the decisions.

Ed
Good luck with what you decide.

[Mike E]

if you havent looked there is one guy selling some 5.25in mid-woofs the CF from Altec Lansing on ebay. he has one auction with a component 2way CF 5.25 mid.
hmmm looks like they are all gone the guy has some 4 sets of just the 5.25in CF mid-woofs, did you buy them? :)

i do happen to have 3 working ALA200 amps and one ALA20 or ALA40 amp. all 2 channel amps the ALA200's are 100watts@4ohms x 2, 120watts@2ohms x 2, 200watts x 1@4ohms. the smaller 2 channel amp from what i recall finding since it didnt come in the AL box was 10watts x 2@4ohms or 20watts x 2@4ohms. which reminds me i need to find that small amp since i dont recall the model. i have been pondering about selling the amps since i never got around to using them. i just started collecting the AL car gear and older Home gear.

once in a blue moon a 8in AL CF sub might pop up on ebay. last time it sold for some $200, i had to pass, didnt have the funds for it.

[Brent_S]

{snippage}
this is so true and im using the stock locations in the car. it is setup as a 3way up front. i cant find a mid that will work in the 2in dia size, there is one from cadance but it looks like the mounting depth is to large. im going to wind up making it a two way. gonna either modify the DSP amp to bypass the built in audo amps and use the built in electric XO(if i can find a mid). either that or i will just remove the DSP-AMP all together and use the passive XO. mount the tweet where the mid is and should be good to go.

thanks guys!

I believe you're talking about the 65mm drivers in a Toyota, correct? If so, before giving up, take a look at the Peerless/Vifa 2" and 2.5" drivers at PE and Madisound (or go directly to Tymphany). Fit will depend on your available depth and possibly fabricating a trim ring from hardboard or mdf. PE's got one of the Peerless 2" 4 ohm models in the buyout section. You'll need to work up your own xover, of course...either passive or electronic. I haven't decided to do it myself, but I've been considering these as replacements in my 4Runner where the JBL 65mm are run as the top of a 2-way.

-Brent

[Mike E]

I believe you're talking about the 65mm drivers in a Toyota, correct? If so, before giving up, take a look at the Peerless/Vifa 2" and 2.5" drivers at PE and Madisound (or go directly to Tymphany). Fit will depend on your available depth and possibly fabricating a trim ring from hardboard or mdf. PE's got one of the Peerless 2" 4 ohm models in the buyout section. You'll need to work up your own xover, of course...either passive or electronic. I haven't decided to do it myself, but I've been considering these as replacements in my 4Runner where the JBL 65mm are run as the top of a 2-way.

-Brent

no sir, i should have told but some make judgments based on the car you drive. it is a 2000 BMW 540iA with DSP. i have done alot of looking for some kind of mid replacement. a few that came to mind where the 1in and a few 2in drivers in the extended range section. however the very low RMS was something of a issue. even if powered from the bmw's DSP amp..

[Brent_S]

no sir, i should have told but some make judgments based on the car you drive. it is a 2000 BMW 540iA with DSP. i have done alot of looking for some kind of mid replacement. a few that came to mind where the 1in and a few 2in drivers in the extended range section. however the very low RMS was something of a issue. even if powered from the bmw's DSP amp..

Sorry, my bad. Someone else mentioned a Camry and knowing Toyota likes the 65mm full range drivers, I got 1+1=3, although the 3-way part didn't sound like a Toyota. :-)

I don't think I'd stress over the power handling specs if the drivers meet your requirements otherwise. Peerless/Vifa know how to build drivers. They're power handling values are likely much more realistic (based on real physics) than anything you'll see from a car audio brand's marketing department. I think some of the Peerless spec sheets might have shown 10 watts RMS, but program material was rated at 60 watts.

People also tend to drastically over estimate how much power they really use. With an 85dB/1w/1m driver, in car you're probably well in to the 90+dB range with only 4 watts. The 65mm JBL drivers in my 4Runner are protected by a single cap for a 1st order highpass (size/frequency unknown) connected to an amp that's spec'd with 45 watts RMS (clean power is more like 20-25 watts). Anyway, not that I'm a headbanger by any means, but those little JBLs have never complained and their passband is at least down into male vocal range.

BTW, looks like the Peerless buyouts I mentioned are gone. :-(

-Brent