Narrow Baffles

[E Biddy]

Is there a reason why most speaker designs have narrow baffles with the speakers in a row. I have always like the look of a speaker like Westlakes. I would like to build something like the Magna *** Laudes with the woofers on either side and the midrange and tweeter up the middle. What are the compromises?

[Paul Carmody]

Is there a reason why most speaker designs have narrow baffles with the speakers in a row. I have always like the look of a speaker like Westlakes. I would like to build something like the Magna *** Laudes with the woofers on either side and the midrange and tweeter up the middle. What are the compromises?

With a crossover point low enough, there is no compromise of having the woofers on the sides. You could put them on the back, for that matter, if the XO point is low enough, because the wavelengths get pretty long below about 250 Hz

[E Biddy]

I was thinking something along the lines of this.

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Professional_Series/bbsm12.jpg

You have 2 x12, 1 x 6.5 and a 1.25" tweeter. With crossover points of 500hz and 4k hz.
Very similar to the magna at 400hz and 3k.

[dcibel]

Nothing wrong with that kind of driver arrangement. I think most people want the vertical line of speakers because it works best in the location they intend to place the speakers.

Provided the baffle step is adequately taken into account, your proposed driver arrangement is a good one. The key in this type of three way is to keep the mid-tweet vertically located so that horizontal off-axis response doesn't contain any nulls.

[Æ]

There is a reason . . . it's called imaging.
You need to be equal distance from the left and right loudspeakers for the best imaging. Having drivers placed on a baffle horizontally only makes it more difficult to be equidistant from all the drivers. But if you are only interested in a diffuse sound field rather than pin point imaging, then you probably don't care/won't mind.

But as far as the actual width of the baffle goes, it probably has more to do with form follows function - aesthetics. You want something that looks good, fits into your living room.

[MusicForMatt]

Maybe I can put it another way: The BEST reason I can think of for Westlake Audio to design their systems that way (horizontal driver layout) is to facilitate wall/soffit mounting in a recording studio. Which, not coincidentally, happens to be the very clientele they chiefly catered to... ;)

They're not the only ones-- JBL used to do it too!

[Andy_G]

Is there a reason why most speaker designs have narrow baffles with the speakers in a row. I have always like the look of a speaker like Westlakes. I would like to build something like the Magna *** Laudes with the woofers on either side and the midrange and tweeter up the middle. What are the compromises?

Can I make a suggestion tha the designer of these speakers changes the name to Magna Com Laudes ??? :D :D


But back on topic.. from my understanding , side mounted woofers need to be crossed not much higher than about 120Hz.
Your idea in post #3 could be viable, but I think you need to bring the mid and tweeter much closer together unless the upper cross-over point is VERY low.
The extra spread on the low crossed woofers shouldn't be an issue.

[dthomas]

I was thinking something along the lines of this.

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Professional_Series/bbsm12.jpg

You have 2 x12, 1 x 6.5 and a 1.25" tweeter. With crossover points of 500hz and 4k hz.
Very similar to the magna at 400hz and 3k.

If you use a software tool like PCD you can model exactly what the compromise of this arrangement is. Just set up the geometry for the drivers on the baffle and move the listening position off axis in the horizontal plane and you will see the effect on the response. Like Paul said if you cross low enough between the woofer and midrange then it won't be as much of an issue as the midrange and tweeter are stacked vertically.

At a 500Hz crossover point you may have a slight issue with lobing in the horizontal listening plane. As mentioned this is because the distance from the two woofers will be unequal. the lower in frequency you go the longer the wavelength and the less of an issue it becomes. I would try to limit to around 200Hz but 500Hz may be fine for your application.

The real problems are when the woofers are being asked to play above 1500Hz or so. It is the age old knock against horizontal MTMs typically used as center channels.

[jeff_free69]

Maybe I can put it another way: The BEST reason I can think of for Westlake Audio to design their systems that way (horizontal driver layout) is to facilitate wall/soffit mounting in a recording studio. Which, not coincidentally, happens to be the very clientele they chiefly catered to... ;)

They're not the only ones-- JBL used to do it too!

true - if it were reorganized into a TMWW tower like a typical HT tower, the WW would be behind a console. Depending on the XO that could be an major issue. Plus with the westlake arrangement the drivers are closer together, making it more condusive to mid-field monitoring

[E Biddy]

The situation the I would like to end up with would be a wall mounted speaker, and the reason that I would want the speaker arranged that way is because they will be used in my studio. I would go passive on the top end and active on the bottom. I wouldn't use them for detailed monitoring, I have a pair of nearfields that I really like

Westlake crosses most of their moniters in the 400 - 500hz range.

This is really what I'd like to build. http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Professional_Series/hr1.jpg

I've looked at some people building those smith horns over on the audioheritage.org site, and that looks like it could be quite fun, and they look great!

[Pete Schumacher ®]

The situation the I would like to end up with would be a wall mounted speaker, and the reason that I would want the speaker arranged that way is because they will be used in my studio. I would go passive on the top end and active on the bottom. I wouldn't use them for detailed monitoring, I have a pair of nearfields that I really like

Westlake crosses most of their moniters in the 400 - 500hz range.

This is really what I'd like to build. http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Professional_Series/hr1.jpg

I've looked at some people building those smith horns over on the audioheritage.org site, and that looks like it could be quite fun, and they look great!

You really ought to check out the thread "Flex your PCD mettle" where the Econowave designs are discussed. They are constant directivity designs, and the "deluxe" version uses some top notch Pro drivers that will offer excellent dynamics and extremely low distortion.

[Flinthrop]

There is a reason . . . it's called imaging.
You need to be equal distance from the left and right loudspeakers for the best imaging. Having drivers placed on a baffle horizontally only makes it more difficult to be equidistant from all the drivers. But if you are only interested in a diffuse sound field rather than pin point imaging, then you probably don't care/won't mind.
Have you actually heard with your own ears speakers with a side-by-side driver arrangement, or is that just an educated guess on your part?

[E Biddy]

Pete, I've been following the econowave threads since there were only a measly 40 pages of posts. I haven't looked at the pcd thread yet though. I already have a pair of the selenuim d220s. I was thinking of using that crossover from some kind of an 8" to the d220 with a wooden smith horn and a pair of 12" on each side with an active crossover.

something like this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1049914/speaker%202.jpg (ignore the dimensions)

[billfitzmaurice]

Having drivers placed on a baffle horizontally only makes it more difficult to be equidistant from all the drivers.That's only a problem if the drivers are more than a wavelength apart CTC; otherwise they'll fully couple and act as a single source. The downside is that horizontal dispersion is inversely proportional to the width of the radiating plane, so the side by side configuration dispersion angle at best is half that of a vertical configuration. There are instances where the designer will intentionally go for a narrower dispersion pattern from the woofers to better match the patterns from the other elements, the only way to know for sure is to look at a full set of polar plots.

[E Biddy]

So for a crossover point of 500hz the centers could be up to 27" apart and it would only narrow the dispersion. I don't know that that would be a bad thing. Thanks Bill,

Eric

[Æ]

Have you actually heard with your own ears speakers with a side-by-side driver arrangement, or is that just an educated guess on your part?

Yes, I've listened to all kinds of different loudspeakers.

[Flinthrop]

Yes, I've listened to all kinds of different loudspeakers.
OK, great. I'm weighing my options for my next speaker project, and horizontally arranged drivers is something I'm considering. Could you tell us which speakers you heard with horizontally arranged drivers, and what the driver array was?

[Flinthrop]

Yes, I've listened to all kinds of different loudspeakers.
I came across a review of some Legacy speakers in Stereophile magazine, and the Legacys have horizontally arrayed midrange drivers, and according to the reviewer imaging is excellent, so apparently diffuse imaging is not in of itself a byproduct of horizontally arrayed drivers.

But I'm open to others' experiences in that regard, and hopefully AE will share with us which horizontally arrayed speakers he heard that gave him the impression of having diffuse imaging so that we'll know what to do to avoid diffuse imaging in our own horizontally arrayed speaker designs.

[billfitzmaurice]

I came across a review of some Legacy speakers in Stereophile magazine, and the Legacys have horizontally arrayed midrange drivers, and according to the reviewer imaging is excellentWhen you find a speaker that Stereophile doesn't like I'll show you a company that doesn't advertise there. When you find a ridiculously expensive speaker Stereophile doesn't love let me know and I can die happy, having seen it all. :rolleyes:

AE will share with us which horizontally arrayed speakers he heard that gave him the impression of having diffuse imaging .Any with more than a 1 wavelength CTC spacing would have imaging, dispersion and combing issues.

[Flinthrop]

When you find a speaker that Stereophile doesn't like I'll show you a company that doesn't advertise there. When you find a ridiculously expensive speaker Stereophile doesn't love let me know and I can die happy, having seen it all. :rolleyes:

Please, if you disagree with me there's no need to be rude and insulting about it with garbage like the rolled eyes icon. Can't we discuss our differences in a civil manner?

So you think that Stereophile routinely lies about the expensive speakers that they review? That's interesting. You do realize that driver design is a mature technology, and that loud speaker design is a mature technology, and that in this day and age it would pretty hard to design a bad sounding speaker? And you do realize that, with the many high end speakers that are available on the marketplace today, that a manufacture that sells ridiculously expensive bad sounding speakers isn't going to stay in business very long? And you do realize that an audio publication that routinely lies in their reviews in order to bring in advertising dollars will not be trusted and also won't stay in business very long? Yet you still think that Stereophile editors and reviewers conspire together to give only good reviews to those ridiculously expensive speaker manufactures that advertise in their magazine? Like I said, that's interesting that you would have that opinion.
But having said all that, can you provide us with a couple of specific examples of ridiculously expensive speakers that Stereophile reviewers loved, but to your ears sounded bad?


Any with more than a 1 wavelength CTC spacing would have imaging, dispersion and combing issues.
Really? And you've personally heard that for yourself? Or is that just an educated guess like AE provided?

[fbov]

...
So you think that Stereophile routinely lies about the expensive speakers that they review? That's interesting. You do realize that driver design is a mature technology, and that loud speaker design is a mature technology, and that in this day and age it would pretty hard to design a bad sounding speaker? And you do realize that, with the many high end speakers that are available on the marketplace today, that a manufacture that sells ridiculously expensive bad sounding speakers isn't going to stay in business very long? And you do realize that an audio publication that routinely lies in their reviews in order to bring in advertising dollars will not be trusted and also won't stay in business very long? Yet you still think that Stereophile editors and reviewers conspire together to give only good reviews to those ridiculously expensive speaker manufactures that advertise in their magazine? ...

"Courtesy costs nothing, but it pays dividends." Enough said.

Yes, actually, I think all subjective reviews are inherently dishonest, because the instruments used to perform the evaluation lie as a matter of course. Ears are not microphones and brains are not recording media. A whole lot of processing occurs in the neural net that attaches our ears to our brain, so we only hear part of the sound field content around us, and that's a very good thing.

We all remember the visual tricks, known as optical illusions, that our visual system superimposes on the retinal image. The same thing happens with hearing (take the precedence effect for example): our senses have adapted to give us optimum survivability as a speicies. That adaptation included distortions and omissions in what we sense aurally, just as it does visually.

This is one reason measurements will never tell the whole story; they're missing the perceptual processing, as well as all those higher brain functions we hominids are so proud of. Another is that the results are contextual - listening rooms matter. Add to that the emotional power music has over our species and one can see how an individual is hard pressed to give a consistent opinion, much less reach a consensus opinion.

Now, one can question if it's a lie to tell falshoods one believes to be true, but that's philosophy, not audio...

Have fun,
Frank

[billfitzmaurice]

And you do realize that an audio publication that routinely lies in their reviews in order to bring in advertising dollars will not be trusted and also won't stay in business very long? ....Or is that just an educated guess like AE provided?I make my living designing loudspeakers. I've got a pretty fair grasp on how they work, and how Stereophile and other publications that derive 100% of their income from advertising are not only careful not to bite the hands that feed them, but also to lick the hands of those that feed them the best.

[Thomas Brown]

Please, if you disagree with me there's no need to be rude and insulting about it with garbage like the rolled eyes icon. Can't we discuss our differences in a civil manner?

wow a rolled eyes icon and the flame war is on :confused:


So you think that Stereophile routinely lies about the expensive speakers that they review? That's interesting. You do realize that driver design is a mature technology, and that loud speaker design is a mature technology, and that in this day and age it would pretty hard to design a bad sounding speaker? And you do realize that, with the many high end speakers that are available on the marketplace today, that a manufacture that sells ridiculously expensive bad sounding speakers isn't going to stay in business very long? And you do realize that an audio publication that routinely lies in their reviews in order to bring in advertising dollars will not be trusted and also won't stay in business very long? Yet you still think that Stereophile editors and reviewers conspire together to give only good reviews to those ridiculously expensive speaker manufactures that advertise in their magazine? Like I said, that's interesting that you would have that opinion.
But having said all that, can you provide us with a couple of specific examples of ridiculously expensive speakers that Stereophile reviewers loved, but to your ears sounded bad?

i have a tin ear, well a steel ear, but i have gone into some stores to listen to the laid back buetiful speakers reviewed by stereo-fool. ya i already have lousy sounding speakers in my house that i didn't have to spend $$$$$ on.

do magazines tend to review there advertisers with a biased opinion, i have to say yes, in my experiance. my experiance with magazines is they are a business first. now my experiance with magazines is not of the "home stereo/audio world", so maybe they are the exception :rolleyes: . i have had the "joy" to try out the new hot products to help evaluate it, everything i read about it claimed it was "better than all". some of these products were good, some were complete junk, ALL of them were overpriced. (i am being vague on purpose, and no i will not "share" exactly what im talking about) i always ended up using a differnet product, component, etc. and sold the "top of the line" product. marketing is big business and magazines are marketing tools.

to be just a tad more specific, there is a certain motorcycle magazine, that for many years aproached me to do a write up on some of my bikes and my shop. i was very excited about it, then was told once i bought a FULL PAGE AD, the pics and write ups would be published...

are all mags the same, i don't know?



Really? And you've personally heard that for yourself? Or is that just an educated guess like AE provided?

if rolled eyes are rude and insulting, then i guess this is ok - Really? And you've personally heard that for yourself? Or is that just an educated guess like AE provided?

most, if not all the people on this board are very good at making a combination of wood, drivers, wire, caps, resistors, inductors, measurement equipment, there experiance, there brains, there time and making a very good sounding speaker, some have even been reviewed :eek:

put 2 12" drivers on a horizontal baffle, with a ctc spacing of 15", cross them at 2000hz and you be the final ears. when you post "i can't figure out why my speakers sound like poo", i would bet alot of these same guys will step up and try to help.

you asked a question and got an answer you didn't like, then demanded "proof". the "proof" is these guys know, and if you listen, someone will step-up and you will end up with a great sounding speaker. if your budget is anything like what stereo-fool reviews, you will end up with great sounding speakers and some cash in your pocket.

[killa]

:):(:confused::mad::p;):D:o:rolleyes::cool::eek: I have just offended you all. lol

[Flint]

Nobody needs to make an educated guess about breaking the 1 wavelength rule of thumb, if they've ever heard the old-school horizontal MTM center channel design. It has pretty much what was stated, issues with imaging, dispersion and combing. That doesn't necessarily mean it's an unusable design, just that there is room for improvement.

On the other hand I doubt there's any issue with the speaker in the picture, with a 500 Hz crossover. That's a wavelength of about 27 inches.

I would disagree with the statement that speaker design being a mature art. In fact I think there are some very significant aspects of speaker performance that are just beginning to be understood. Specifically in the areas of structural resonance and 3D polar response there is emerging design exploration that could revolutionize how speakers work in the future. What is true is that there's a mature art of building status quo box speakers, which some would say have a generic "speaker" sound as a result of common limitations.

[Flinthrop]

"Courtesy costs nothing, but it pays dividends." Enough said.

Yes, actually, I think all subjective reviews are inherently dishonest, because the instruments used to perform the evaluation lie as a matter of course. Ears are not microphones and brains are not recording media. A whole lot of processing occurs in the neural net that attaches our ears to our brain, so we only hear part of the sound field content around us, and that's a very good thing.

We all remember the visual tricks, known as optical illusions, that our visual system superimposes on the retinal image. The same thing happens with hearing (take the precedence effect for example): our senses have adapted to give us optimum survivability as a speicies. That adaptation included distortions and omissions in what we sense aurally, just as it does visually.

This is one reason measurements will never tell the whole story; they're missing the perceptual processing, as well as all those higher brain functions we hominids are so proud of. Another is that the results are contextual - listening rooms matter. Add to that the emotional power music has over our species and one can see how an individual is hard pressed to give a consistent opinion, much less reach a consensus opinion.

Now, one can question if it's a lie to tell falshoods one believes to be true, but that's philosophy, not audio...

Have fun,
Frank
I think you're reading way more into the review process than is really there... a reviewer gets a piece of equipment on loan, they listen to that piece of equipment for a period of time, and then they report what they hear. If what the reviewer says about that piece of equipment interests a person, then that person can go to to a dealer and hear for themselves if what that reviewer said about that piece of equipment rings true or not.

[Flinthrop]

I make my living designing loudspeakers. I've got a pretty fair grasp on how they work, and how Stereophile and other publications that derive 100% of their income from advertising are not only careful not to bite the hands that feed them, but also to lick the hands of those that feed them the best.
I'll ask you again, and please no generalizations... which expensive speakers that Stereophile gave good reviews to have sounded bad to you when you heard them with your own ears?

[Flinthrop]

wow a rolled eyes icon and the flame war is on :confused:
A simple request to show civility is a "flame war"? What are you talking about?

(i am being vague on purpose, and no i will not "share" exactly what im talking about)
Why not? What's there to be afraid of?

if rolled eyes are rude and insulting, then i guess this is ok - Really? And you've personally heard that for yourself? Or is that just an educated guess like AE provided?
Really? So you think that asking a question is an insult? How so?

most, if not all the people on this board are very good at making a combination of wood, drivers, wire, caps, resistors, inductors, measurement equipment, there experiance, there brains, there time and making a very good sounding speaker, some have even been reviewed :eek:
I'm not sure what that has to do with having actual listening experiences with horizontally arrayed drivers in a speaker.

you asked a question and got an answer you didn't like, then demanded "proof". the "proof" is these guys know, and if you listen, someone will step-up and you will end up with a great sounding speaker.
You're purposely mischaracterizing my words... I didn't "demand" proof of anything... statements of fact were made in regard to horizontally arrayed speakers, and I asked the posters to back up those statements of fact with their personal listening experiences, and so far no one has been able to do so. Or is it offensive for me not to accept everything at face value?

[Flinthrop]

:):(:confused::mad::p;):D:o:rolleyes::cool::eek: I have just offended you all. lol
No, you just displayed what a childish and immature person you are.

[killa]

No, you just displayed what a childish and immature person you are.

Lol it's a joke so take it easy.

[Jeff B.]

You're purposely mischaracterizing my words... I didn't "demand" proof of anything... statements of fact were made in regard to horizontally arrayed speakers, and I asked the posters to back up those statements of fact with their personal listening experiences, and so far no one has been able to do so. Or is it offensive for me not to accept everything at face value?

No, but at some point maybe you should accept widely known and well accepted mathematics and acoustics. You appear to challenge everyone who doesn't think your horizontal array is a wise move and will have audible issues. And, honestly, above where you appear to have become offended, I didn't see where the other poster had done anything offensive, except try to tell you the truth. I guess you should go ahead and build the speaker you want to build, and if people telling you not to bothers you, then ignore them. Life is too short to get worked up over it. If all you want if for someone to tell you it is OK, then OK, go ahead and do it.

Having said that, I would be amiss to not point out that lobing is a very real and audible feature of two noncoincident drivers with different path lengths to the listener. The reason we align drivers vertically is because stereo channels are not vertical and we tend to not move around much vertically while listening. Horizontal lobing is a very audible effect. Depending on where you are seated stereo imagining can be dramatically impacted, as well as perceived tonal balance between left and right channels. Move a little and it is possible to change it some more. This is normally not desirable. However, this is all based on the wavelengths associated with the separation and the crossover points. But, this has already been pointed out.

[Flinthrop]

Nobody needs to make an educated guess about breaking the 1 wavelength rule of thumb, if they've ever heard the old-school horizontal MTM center channel design.
Yes, if they've heard... you can quote theory on any subject until the cows come home, but until that theory is put into actual use it's still just theory. It was represented that horizontally arrayed speakers give diffused imaging, and it was represented that coupling the drivers close together makes the drivers act as a single source, and all I did was to question whether those assertions were based on theory, or on actual listening experiences. I'm still waiting for answers.

I would disagree with the statement that speaker design being a mature art. In fact I think there are some very significant aspects of speaker performance that are just beginning to be understood. Specifically in the areas of structural resonance and 3D polar response there is emerging design exploration that could revolutionize how speakers work in the future. What is true is that there's a mature art of building status quo box speakers, which some would say have a generic "speaker" sound as a result of common limitations.
Yes, that's what I meant... current speaker design is a mature technology in that it's relatively easy to design and build a great sounding speaker these days. Box construction is understood, good sounding drivers are the norm, and computer programs exist to aid in box and crossover design, so in that sense it's a mature technology.

[Flinthrop]

No, but at some point maybe you should accept widely known and well accepted mathematics and acoustics. You appear to challenge everyone who doesn't think your horizontal array is a wise move and will have audible issues.
You're misrepresenting what's going on in this thread... horizontally arrayed speakers are not the norm, so before I go spend a bunch of time and money building a pair for myself I'd like to learn all I can about them. Assertions were made in this thread in regard to the sound quality of horizontally arrayed speakers, and I made simple and sincere requests for those posters to back up their assertions with actual listening experiences. In order to avoid all this drama all the posters would have had to do is to relate their listening experiences. End of story.

And, honestly, above where you appear to have become offended, I didn't see where the other poster had done anything offensive, except try to tell you the truth. I guess you should go ahead and build the speaker you want to build, and if people telling you not to bothers you, then ignore them. Life is too short to get worked up over it.
And honestly you're again making misrepresentations... no where did I say or imply that I was all worked up about anything... I made a simple and polite request to a poster asking him to treat each other with civility. Where I come from using the rolling eyes icon in response to a disagreement in opinion is not a form of respect, so I said something about it. And the poster seemed OK with my comments, so why are you and others making a big deal out of it??

Having said that, I would be amiss to not point out that lobing is a very real and audible feature of two noncoincident drivers with different path lengths to the listener. The reason we align drivers vertically is because stereo channels are not vertical and we tend to not move around much vertically while listening. Horizontal lobing is a very audible effect. Depending on where you are seated stereo imagining can be dramatically impacted, as well as perceived tonal balance between left and right channels. Move a little and it is possible to change it some more. This is normally not desirable. However, this is all based on the wavelengths associated with the separation and the crossover points. But, this has already been pointed out.
Yes I understand the theory, but like I said in another post you can quote theory until the cows come home, but until it's put into actual use it's still only theory. So I'll ask you what I asked of the others, and I sincerely want to know... what has your actual listening experiences been with horizontally arrayed speakers? Did you notice diffused imaging? How about soundstaging depth and height? Any other pros and cons?
And please, if you don't have personal experience listening to horizontally arrayed speakers then just say so and we can avoid any further drama.

[Flint]

To answer the question, have I personally heard a horizontal MTM? Yes, years ago I owned a speaker with this design. It was part of a set that I bought together. I found that the center speaker sounded worse than a phantom center, so it sat there unused. This particular speaker probably had other areas for possible improvement though. But seriously, it must be true that most of the speaker enthusiasts who read this forum have firsthand experience with this design issue.

For what it's worth I no longer consider a status quo box loudspeaker to be "great sounding". It's an issue of taste, but also what level of performance constitutes greatness. My own interest is active dipoles, which I believe have performance advantages that reduce other types of speakers to a status below "greatness". This is of course just an opinion.

Edit: I want to re-state that the design in question is not in fact a horizontal MTM, but rather a W/MT/W. This is a different story, and with a crossover frequency at 400 Hz or 500 Hz it's doesn't seem like cause for concern about lobing or comb filtering.

[killa]

all you have to do is sit a mtm on its side and move back and forth while listening and you can easily hear lobing. It is also measurable.

[Flint]

Hey Flinthrop, do you want a simple way to explore this question about combing or frequency response issues from the side by side drivers? Download the NCH tone generator (http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html), which is a free program that will play tone sweeps or sine waves at whatever frequency you want. This program demo expires after a few weeks but you can actually just reinstall it (don't tell anyone I said that). Then place a couple of midrange drivers at whatever distance apart, just prop them up on a tripod or something. Play a sine wave at 500 Hz and listen from different angles, then move the distance further apart and try again. It's an interesting experiment. You might find there's no issue until the frequency is 1 kHz or higher, at the spacing you would want to use. When the spacing is too large there's a clearly noticeable and disturbing shift to the pitch as you move your head from side to side.

[Thomas Brown]

no more food for the troll, obviously you just want to argue :cool:

[E Biddy]

Isn't it amazing what a simple question can bring out. I have decided that for my summer project I am going to build the magna's with the woofers split. I'll tell you how it sounds.

[Jeff B.]

You're misrepresenting what's going on in this thread... horizontally arrayed speakers are not the norm, so before I go spend a bunch of time and money building a pair for myself I'd like to learn all I can about them. Assertions were made in this thread in regard to the sound quality of horizontally arrayed speakers, and I made simple and sincere requests for those posters to back up their assertions with actual listening experiences. In order to avoid all this drama all the posters would have had to do is to relate their listening experiences. End of story.

And honestly you're again making misrepresentations... no where did I say or imply that I was all worked up about anything... I made a simple and polite request to a poster asking him to treat each other with civility. Where I come from using the rolling eyes icon in response to a disagreement in opinion is not a form of respect, so I said something about it. And the poster seemed OK with my comments, so why are you and others making a big deal out of it??

Yes I understand the theory, but like I said in another post you can quote theory until the cows come home, but until it's put into actual use it's still only theory. So I'll ask you what I asked of the others, and I sincerely want to know... what has your actual listening experiences been with horizontally arrayed speakers? Did you notice diffused imaging? How about soundstaging depth and height? Any other pros and cons?
And please, if you don't have personal experience listening to horizontally arrayed speakers then just say so and we can avoid any further drama.


Yes. I have heard it. Many times. And, it is quite audible. I have been doing this a long time, so experience isn't hard to come by. In some cases it can be very annoying. If you put an MTM sideways you had better stay right in front of it, moving very much from side to side can really change how it sounds.

As stated above, it is still dependent on the crossover frequency and the separation distance. Two woofer side by side crossing at 400 Hz is not going to make any difference, two midranges spaced by 12" and crossing over to the tweeter at 2kHz is going to have peaks and nulls across the room. This is very clearly heard and changes the stereo imaging for different listener positions. The JBLs and Westlakes work well becasue they keep the crossover points low.

I have set up two recording studios. In one there were horizontal arrays. We had to be very careful on placement. Whether I have heard this affect or not should not validate to invalidate known laws of acoustics. You want to keep calling this theory, I think that is incorrect. Some things in life are well beyond theory - they are definable, testable, and reproducable. Once defined they become laws within whatever framework of science they are in. My crossover software, for example, will predict the nulls and peaks for noncoincident drivers using the defined mathematics for complex summation. You can both measure these nulls and hear them very easily based on the qualification I gave above.

[Andy_G]

In fact, so well is this theory defined, that in the musical instrument field, and public amplification, speakers have been specifically built that use 2 or more horizontally oriented pa drivers to form a very narrow "beam" of sound. If you get much off-axis, you get greatly diminished output.
This can be very handy in live music situations, but is not really what you want with HiFi speakers. Having sound that changes from almost omni in the bass region to a narrow beam in the mids is not a good idea.

Gees, even a Fender Twin beams like crazy, I'm always trying to make sure that in small pub venues they don't point the darn things straight at me where I'm mixing . I prefer the guitarist to angle them back so they point up at the their ears, they generally don't turn it up as much then. :D

[billfitzmaurice]

In fact, so well is this theory defined.
In this case the nomenclature 'theory' should not be applied. 'Theory' implies a level of conjecture; where the results of combining waves from multiple sources are concerned there is no conjecture involved. The results are predictable with 100% accuracy, giving it the quality of Law, not Theory.
The ripple tank applet found here enables one to see what happens with multiple sources, with total adjustability of pertinent variables.
http://www.falstad.com/ripple/

[E Biddy]

Actually, theory is a perfectly good word. The word theory implies a well tested prediction of what is going to happen. Many people improperly refer to things as theory when they should be called a hypothesis. For example, we have the theory of Gravity (often incorrectly referred to as a law), that is pretty well tested and we can make very accurate predictions based on this. The "Big Bang" is more correctly referred to as a hypothesis than a theory. If something is generaly referred to as a theory, it is pretty solid.

Sorry, I was a science teacher and this is one of the things I used to try to pound in to my students.

[Æ]

Well in that case I personally consider the "Big Bang" a theory. Seems to be a lot of very solid evidence. The cosmic background radiation measured by the WMAP, receding galaxies measured by red shift etc. That thing about gravity has confused me some. Well anyway I've learned to be observant of it. You can break man made laws but you cannot break the law/rule/theory of gravity. Well at least not yet.

By the way, the speed of light is not just a good idea, it's the Law!


Actually, theory is a perfectly good word. The word theory implies a well tested prediction of what is going to happen. Many people improperly refer to things as theory when they should be called a hypothesis. For example, we have the theory of Gravity (often incorrectly referred to as a law), that is pretty well tested and we can make very accurate predictions based on this. The "Big Bang" is more correctly referred to as a hypothesis than a theory. If something is generally referred to as a theory, it is pretty solid.

Sorry, I was a science teacher and this is one of the things I used to try to pound in to my students.

[Flinthrop]

Lol it's a joke so take it easy.
LOL, that's some funny, funny stuff! But seriously, if you don't have anything useful to add to this thread's topic of horizontally arrayed speakers, then please quit your thread crapping and go play somewhere else. Or was that too intense for you?

[Flinthrop]

all you have to do is sit a mtm on its side and move back and forth while listening and you can easily hear lobing. It is also measurable.
Thank you... now that was useful. But the only problem is is that I don't have a pair of MTM's laying around, so I need to rely on other's listening experiences of horizontally arrayed speakers.

[Flinthrop]

To answer the question, have I personally heard a horizontal MTM? Yes, years ago I owned a speaker with this design. It was part of a set that I bought together. I found that the center speaker sounded worse than a phantom center, so it sat there unused. This particular speaker probably had other areas for possible improvement though. But seriously, it must be true that most of the speaker enthusiasts who read this forum have firsthand experience with this design issue.

For what it's worth I no longer consider a status quo box loudspeaker to be "great sounding". It's an issue of taste, but also what level of performance constitutes greatness. My own interest is active dipoles, which I believe have performance advantages that reduce other types of speakers to a status below "greatness". This is of course just an opinion.

Edit: I want to re-state that the design in question is not in fact a horizontal MTM, but rather a W/MT/W. This is a different story, and with a crossover frequency at 400 Hz or 500 Hz it's doesn't seem like cause for concern about lobing or comb filtering.
Thank you, I appreciate your comments. The design I'm considering would be two mids side-by-side with a tweeter on top.

[Flinthrop]

Hey Flinthrop, do you want a simple way to explore this question about combing or frequency response issues from the side by side drivers? Download the NCH tone generator (http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html), which is a free program that will play tone sweeps or sine waves at whatever frequency you want. This program demo expires after a few weeks but you can actually just reinstall it (don't tell anyone I said that). Then place a couple of midrange drivers at whatever distance apart, just prop them up on a tripod or something. Play a sine wave at 500 Hz and listen from different angles, then move the distance further apart and try again. It's an interesting experiment. You might find there's no issue until the frequency is 1 kHz or higher, at the spacing you would want to use. When the spacing is too large there's a clearly noticeable and disturbing shift to the pitch as you move your head from side to side.
Thank you for your suggestions Flint, thank you for the link, and I shall see what I can rig up for an experiment.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

LOL, that's some funny, funny stuff! But seriously, if you don't have anything useful to add to this thread's topic of horizontally arrayed speakers, then please quit your thread crapping and go play somewhere else. Or was that too intense for you?

What I don't understand is your insistence on getting peoples "opinion" of what they hear, and dismiss the "theory" they base their response on.

Reading a review of a speaker is a poor substitute for auditioning it yourself. Listener impressions, quite seriously, are worthless. It's like me trying to describe to you what a banana tastes like.

Objective measurements, and proven design principles, are far more valuable for determining whether a design has potential merit than some ethereal audiophile-speak. At least with objective points, there's common ground upon which to build a reasoned discussion. Someone else's opinion of what sounds good is hardly a way to make a decision, unless you already are aware and have experienced for yourself, what that person's opinion means to your ears. I've heard a few of Jeff Bagby's actual designs, and so I have confidence based on that experience. So when some paid reviewer at Stereophile describes his wunderspeaker in glowing language, I have no idea whether what he's writing has any merit, unless I go experience for myself what he is listening to. Then I have a basis on which to form an opinion if what he's writing is reasonable, or simply pandering to the advertiser paying for his words.

Horizontal arrays will have issues, in the horizontal axis. That's a fact, not opinion. The factors involved, like crossover point and slope, will have a predictable effect. As many have pointed out, the desired 500Hz XO point with the side-by-side woofers probably isn't a big deal. However, because of the known effects, a lower XO point is advisable, with beneficial effects, like better power response and a more uniform horizontal pattern.

:cool:

[Flinthrop]

no more food for the troll, obviously you just want to argue :cool:
Obviously it's the pot calling the kettle black. If you don't have anything useful to add to the topic of this thread, horizontally arrayed speakers, then please show some common courtesy and don't thread crap and ruin it for the rest of us.

[Flinthrop]

Yes. I have heard it. Many times. And, it is quite audible. I have been doing this a long time, so experience isn't hard to come by. In some cases it can be very annoying. If you put an MTM sideways you had better stay right in front of it, moving very much from side to side can really change how it sounds.

As stated above, it is still dependent on the crossover frequency and the separation distance. Two woofer side by side crossing at 400 Hz is not going to make any difference, two midranges spaced by 12" and crossing over to the tweeter at 2kHz is going to have peaks and nulls across the room. This is very clearly heard and changes the stereo imaging for different listener positions. The JBLs and Westlakes work well becasue they keep the crossover points low.

I have set up two recording studios. In one there were horizontal arrays. We had to be very careful on placement. Whether I have heard this affect or not should not validate to invalidate known laws of acoustics. You want to keep calling this theory, I think that is incorrect. Some things in life are well beyond theory - they are definable, testable, and reproducable. Once defined they become laws within whatever framework of science they are in. My crossover software, for example, will predict the nulls and peaks for noncoincident drivers using the defined mathematics for complex summation. You can both measure these nulls and hear them very easily based on the qualification I gave above.
Thank you very much... actual listening experience is the type of information I was looking for, so I appreciate your sharing your listening experiences with me.

I don't care what you call it... theory, reproducible, whatever... the point is that I want to have some idea of what a horizontally arrayed set of speakers sounds like to a real live human being's ears before I go to the time and expense of building a pair for myself. That's all I'm asking for... don't tell me what on paper they should sound like, tell me what your ears have actually heard. And if nobody wants to share that information with me, then I'm fine with that too... it's no sweat off my back. But don't go attacking me and making me out to be the bad guy just because I want some specific answers. Am I being unreasonable?

[Andy_G]

So for a crossover point of 500hz the centers could be up to 27" apart and it would only narrow the dispersion. I don't know that that would be a bad thing. Thanks Bill,

Eric

Its not a bad thing if that's what you are aiming for for the whole speaker.

What you should try to avoid is big swings in dispersion characteristics, which is what you may well end up with if you don't know what you are doing. Especially in the mids you don't want to be going from the narrow dispersion of a pair of side by side drivers to the wide dispersion of of the lower end of the tweeter, so this type of speaker would have to be crossed VERY low between the mids and tweeter to avoid your imaging etc getting rather stuffed up

[Flinthrop]

What I don't understand is your insistence on getting peoples "opinion" of what they hear, and dismiss the "theory" they base their response on.
What I said in another post: The point is that I want to have some idea of what a horizontally arrayed set of speakers sounds like to a real live human being's ears before I go to the time and expense of building a pair for myself. That's all I'm asking for... don't tell me what on paper they should sound like, tell me what your ears have actually heard. And if nobody wants to share that information with me, then I'm fine with that too... it's no sweat off my back. But don't go attacking me and making me out to be the bad guy just because I want some specific answers.

Reading a review of a speaker is a poor substitute for auditioning it yourself.
Yeah, no kidding.... where did I say or imply that it wasn't? All I did was to make a comment that a Stereophile reviewer thought that a pair of horizontally arrayed speakers had real good imaging. Horizontally arrayed speakers is the topic of this thread, isn't it?

Listener impressions, quite seriously, are worthless. It's like me trying to describe to you what a banana tastes like.
Speak for yourself... just because you say it doesn't make it a fact. I find that for some purposes listening impressions are very useful. And I don't think describing how a speaker sounds has any relation what-so-ever to describing what a banana tastes like. But to each his own.

Horizontal arrays will have issues, in the horizontal axis. That's a fact, not opinion.
Yeah, no kidding it's a fact... where did anyone say or imply that it wasn't? But the more important question (to me) is what do those issues actually sound like to a real live human being?

[djg]

My center channel speaker is a Zaph Bargain Aluminum MTM (BAMTM). It has a crossover point of 1500hz. Zaph claims a 20 degree zone each side of center of acceptable sound when placed on its side. This fits in with my seating arrangement, and I experience clear sound from all seats in my living room.

[Æ]

Hey Pete, what does a banana taste like? :)

I actually don't like the taste of bananas very much, well maybe if it's in a banana split.
I had a Chocolate Vivanno Smoothie at Starbucks, they put a banana in it and I liked it! Anyway I figured that I could make my own smoothie for a lot less. So every now and then I'll blend up my own smoothie with half a banana.

Did you know that monkeys eat bananas by pinching the bottom end of the banana -- NOT by peeling back from the stem end?

[djg]

That's how Johnny Chimpo does it. I was going to add a picture but thought better of it. Google it.

Did you find this post useful?

[time]

LOL, that's some funny, funny stuff! But seriously, if you don't have anything useful to add to this thread's topic of horizontally arrayed speakers, then please quit your thread crapping and go play somewhere else. Or was that too intense for you?

That's actually pretty funny on it's own since your the one hijacking someone elses thread.

Or are you the OP?

[Æ]

That's actually pretty funny on it's own since your the one hijacking someone elses thread.

Or are you the OP?

Good one. Touché.

[Æ]

Speak for yourself...has any relation what-so-ever to describing what a banana tastes like.

Bananaphile Magazine reviewed several different bananas and their conclusion was that yellow bananas tasted better than green bananas. :p
If you have trouble getting your horizontally placed loudspeakers to image properly, stuff a banana in one ear, that should do the trick.

[rene]

http://www.research.usf.edu/cm/pics/computer_monkey.gif

[Æ]

Hey Rene, is that a Mac or a PC?


http://www.research.usf.edu/cm/pics/computer_monkey.gif

[Æ]

That's how Johnny Chimpo does it. I was going to add a picture but thought better of it. Google it.

Did you find this post useful?

Not very useful, but I did learn who Johnny Chimpo is.

[Andy_G]

All I did was to make a comment that a Stereophile reviewer thought that a pair of horizontally arrayed speakers had real good imaging.

But the more important question (to me) is what do those issues actually sound like to a real live human being?

1. Reviews from hifi magazines.. you have to buy advertisment space as well, at great cost.. OF COURSE this reflects on the final review !! I have read good reviews of speakers, then heard the speakers and laughed !! Sorry, but you cannot necessarly trust these reviews.

2. If you get the side by side mids wrong, they will form a beam of high energy mids directly on axis, but move a couple of feet to the side of this beam and the mids will drop down in level considerably. Mix this with the wide dispersion of the lower end of a tweeter, and you will get a whole heap of mixed up directional and imaging cues, which will almost certainly cause imaging issues, instrument floating around from side to side, smeared across the whole soundstage, ill-defined image positioning etc etc.

Does that cover your last question ??

[Pete Schumacher ®]

1. Reviews from hifi magazines.. you have to buy advertisment space as well, at great cost.. OF COURSE this reflects on the final review !! I have read good reviews of speakers, then heard the speakers and laughed !! Sorry, but you cannot necessarly trust these reviews.

2. If you get the side by side mids wrong, they will form a beam of high energy mids directly on axis, but move a couple of feet to the side of this beam and the mids will drop down in level considerably. Mix this with the wide dispersion of the lower end of a tweeter, and you will get a whole heap of mixed up directional and imaging cues, which will almost certainly cause imaging issues, instrument floating around from side to side, smeared across the whole soundstage, ill-defined image positioning etc etc.

Does that cover your last question ??

the whole point is, if you don't understand what those terms mean, and if you've never experienced it for yourself, it's pointless to describe it.

If you're relying on someone's "opinion" of how something sounds, and you have no basis for reference as to whether their description would match your understanding of that description, its no different than describing the taste of a banana. Unless you've tasted one, you can't understand what it tastes like by someone describing it in words. sweet, soft, smooth, can apply to any number of foods, but there's only one . . . banana-ey.

Build your experiment and then experience it. Better yet, go find a 12" 3-way with side-by-side woofers, with crossovers near 500Hz, and then you will KNOW by your own ears if the result is worth pursuing as DIY.

[Andy_G]

,

but there's only one . . . banana-ey.



hmmm, not sure I agree with that , Pete.

I thought it to be the case at one time, but then I tasted a banana that DIDN'T taste banana-ey. So that effectively undermined my previous experiences of what banana-ey meant.. so someone describing something as banana-ey, is now a confusing concept.

The same applies to strawberries too.. They have this variety of strawberries in Tasmania, that tastes way different from a strawberry, (although that doesn't make sense, because it is a strawberry) It is, however, very difficult to describe how it differs. :D

[jmb]

Just wanted to chime in here as I haven't been active in some time.

As an ex research guy (in psychiatry), I can tell you that even if you start out with every intent on being unbiased, your sponsorships will subconsciously influence your findings; it is human nature. I don't believe that there is ill intent at Stereophile, but keep in mind that the judgement of loudspeakers is a mixture of objective (measurement based) and subjective (that which is more difficult to lend itself to measurement) findings. I would not go so far as Bill did, but there is likely some truth to his looking with some skepticism at the findings of a magazine with sponsorships.

That being said, we have excellent modelling tools available in the free programs from Jeff Bagby and the FRD group and some excellent paid programs such as LSPCAD and Soundeasy that can easily model frequency response, diffraction issues, and even room effects to some degree. The subjective aspect of the sound cannot be gauged unless you build and listen to the speaker (I am ignoring the emulation abilities of the two paid programs).

I would strongly encourage you to play around with some modelling prior to starting a build unless you just want to see for yourself. In that case, have fun, it is what diy is all about.

Jay

[Thomas Brown]

LOL, that's some funny, funny stuff! But seriously, if you don't have anything useful to add to this thread's topic of horizontally arrayed speakers, then please quit your thread crapping and go play somewhere else. Or was that too intense for you?


Obviously it's the pot calling the kettle black. If you don't have anything useful to add to the topic of this thread, horizontally arrayed speakers, then please show some common courtesy and don't thread crap and ruin it for the rest of us.



That's actually pretty funny on it's own since your the one hijacking someone elses thread.

Or are you the OP?

Good one. Touché.


http://www.research.usf.edu/cm/pics/computer_monkey.gif

i want to know who got a picture of me and my pc.


just ate a large dinner, no b-a-n-a-n-a, but enough to make me full!
now i need to take a BIG thread crap!



ahh relief!

[Æ]

just ate a large dinner, no b-a-n-a-n-a, but enough to make me full!
now i need to take a BIG thread crap!

ahh relief!

I think I finally know why they call you "stinky" because you are always having to take a crap! :p

[Thomas Brown]

I think I finally know why they call you "stinky" because you are always having to take a crap! :p

i really dont find it necessary to stick your toungue out at me. if you must waste your time on such a serious thread, well then sir, i bite my thumb at you. :rolleyes:

[E Biddy]

My thread may have been hijacked, but I'm having a good time, and getting good info!

[speakerman19422]

Sub crossovers at 500Hz are a critical area in reproducing the human voice. I prefer 100-200Hz.

[gvimhoof]

My thread may have been hijacked, but I'm having a good time, and getting good info!

Great attitude to keep. Enjoy the ride!

[Thomas Brown]

My thread may have been hijacked, but I'm having a good time, and getting good info!

sorry for being part of the mess.

the guys on this forum really do know what they are talking about, and are very willing to help. they definately don't want someone to just waste hard earned dough.

[time]

sorry for being part of the mess.

Yeah, I was going to suggest toiletpaper.:D

Actually, I learn the most from the controversial threads. My very first post resulted in a thread several pages long and I enjoyed every post. I think I only had three or so posts in it myself but the reading was great and I beleive I have a great sub design out of it.

[Thomas Brown]

Yeah, I was going to suggest toiletpaper.:D

Actually, I learn the most from the controversial threads. My very first post resulted in a thread several pages long and I enjoyed every post. I think I only had three or so posts in it myself but the reading was great and I beleive I have a great sub design out of it.

i know a little less than nothing, but i do know these guys really know what they are doing.

[rene]

Strangely I just googled "dumb monkeys". amazingly I didn't come up with a picture of my boss! ;)

Rene


i want to know who got a picture of me and my pc.


just ate a large dinner, no b-a-n-a-n-a, but enough to make me full!
now i need to take a BIG thread crap!



ahh relief!

[Thomas Brown]

Yeah, I was going to suggest toiletpaper.:D



flushable baby wipes!

[Flinthrop]

That's actually pretty funny on it's own since your the one hijacking someone elses thread.
Really? I hijacked the thread? The topic of this thread is horizontally arrayed speakers, and if you'll go back and read my posts you'll see that horizontally arrayed speakers have been the main focus of my posts. The only time I've deviated from that is when I have to take the time to deal with thread crappers such as yourself that want to stir things up with their false accusations.

If you don't have anything useful to add to this thread in regard to horizontally arrayed speakers, then please show some common courtesy and don't post here.

[Flinthrop]

Bananaphile Magazine reviewed several different bananas and their conclusion was that yellow bananas tasted better than green bananas. :p
If you have trouble getting your horizontally placed loudspeakers to image properly, stuff a banana in one ear, that should do the trick.
Hi Pookey! Are ya havin' fun wrecking this thread? Atta boy! It's Saturday and you don't have school today, so you'll have all day to sit at the computer and act like a clown! But don't tell your mom what you're doing!

Say, I'm still waiting for you to share with us just which horizontally arrayed speakers that you personally heard that gave diffuse imaging. Would you be able to do that at some point? I'll bet you will!

But wait a minute... is it possible that you were lying and you've never actually heard a a pair of horizontally arrayed speakers for yourself, but you wanted to sound important so you said that you did? Hmmmm... wouldn't that be crazy! So whadya think Pookey, am I off base on this one?

[Flinthrop]

1. Reviews from hifi magazines.. you have to buy advertisment space as well, at great cost.. OF COURSE this reflects on the final review !! I have read good reviews of speakers, then heard the speakers and laughed !! Sorry, but you cannot necessarly trust these reviews.
Yes, it's good to state the obvious, but what is it in reference to? Who in this thread has said or implied that they do trust reviews? But having said that, would you mind sharing with us which speakers that Stereophile said sounded good and that you laughed at because to your ears they sounded bad?


2. If you get the side by side mids wrong, they will form a beam of high energy mids directly on axis, but move a couple of feet to the side of this beam and the mids will drop down in level considerably. Mix this with the wide dispersion of the lower end of a tweeter, and you will get a whole heap of mixed up directional and imaging cues, which will almost certainly cause imaging issues, instrument floating around from side to side, smeared across the whole soundstage, ill-defined image positioning etc etc.

Does that cover your last question ??
Not really. It's like you didn't even bother to read any of the posts in this thread.

[Flinthrop]

If you're relying on someone's "opinion" of how something sounds, and you have no basis for reference as to whether their description would match your understanding of that description....
I don't know why you're having such a hard time grasping such a simple and basic concept... I've been listening to music for a lot of years, so if you tell me that a speaker's imaging sounds diffuse, I know what that means. If you tell me that a speaker's soundstage is narrow, or wide, I know what that means. If you tell me that a speaker sounds bright, or bassy, or phasey, or whatever, I know what that means. It ain't rocket science.

Again, it's amazing to me that I'm having to explain such a simple and basic concept... if you'll go back and reread my posts you'll be able to very clearly see that all I'm after is a basic overview of what a horizontally arrayed speaker does or doesn't sound like - it's called in-for-ma-tion. When someone has a particular speaker project in mind they gather all the information they can on that design, and then they can make an informed choice on whether they want to go ahead with that particular project. If you like to just go by the numbers and by theory to make your choices in what speakers you want to build, then I could care less - go for it. But if I want to use listening impressions as part of the equation in what speakers I want to build, what do you care? What skin is it off of your nose? Good grief man, live and let live.... just because you like to do things a certain way doesn't mean that it's the only way to do things.

[time]

Really? I hijacked the thread? The topic of this thread is horizontally arrayed speakers, and if you'll go back and read my posts you'll see that horizontally arrayed speakers have been the main focus of my posts. The only time I've deviated from that is when I have to take the time to deal with thread crappers such as yourself that want to stir things up with their false accusations.

If you don't have anything useful to add to this thread in regard to horizontally arrayed speakers, then please show some common courtesy and don't post here.

What more is there to add? Your questions have been answered. You choose to not believe the answers. Your last post to Andy proves you don't care to get answers.

I've read pages and pages of listening impresions of white van speaker by people justifying falling for the scam. They were very impressed by the sound and quality of their speakers "for the money". Maybe you should find yourself a pair since so many people like them.

[Æ]

My thread may have been hijacked, but I'm having a good time, and getting good info!

I'm surprised the moderators haven't shut this thread down already.
So anyway, whatever you choose to build, take some pictures for the rest of us.

[Flinthrop]

flushable baby wipes!
Hey Thomas, your last name reminds of a skid mark in your underwear. Ha ha ha! Get it? Brown = skid mark? Tee hee! Toilet humor sure is fun for us 7th graders, isn't it? Fart! Turd!

[Flinthrop]

I'm surprised the moderators haven't shut this thread down already.
If they shut it down it will be because of your and a few others immature and childish activities. It's sad that the actions of a few ruin it for everyone.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I don't know why you're having such a hard time grasping such a simple and basic concept... I've been listening to music for a lot of years, so if you tell me that a speaker's imaging sounds diffuse, I know what that means. If you tell me that a speaker's soundstage is narrow, or wide, I know what that means. If you tell me that a speaker sounds bright, or bassy, or phasey, or whatever, I know what that means. It ain't rocket science.

Again, it's amazing to me that I'm having to explain such a simple and basic concept... if you'll go back and reread my posts you'll be able to very clearly see that all I'm after is a basic overview of what a horizontally arrayed speaker does or doesn't sound like - it's called in-for-ma-tion. When someone has a particular speaker project in mind they gather all the information they can on that design, and then they can make an informed choice on whether they want to go ahead with that particular project. If you like to just go by the numbers and by theory to make your choices in what speakers you want to build, then I could care less - go for it. But if I want to use listening impressions as part of the equation in what speakers I want to build, what do you care? What skin is it off of your nose? Good grief man, live and let live.... just because you like to do things a certain way doesn't mean that it's the only way to do things.

Wow . . .

How do you know that what someone is telling you about sound matches what you think they're telling you?

How many people here have told you that there are problems with horizontally arrayed speakers, and yet you insist they give you some flowery adjectives to describe something that is better experienced first hand.

What is so hard about going to an audio outlet, finding a set that resembles what you're after, and hearing for yourself whether or not you like it? It's called R-E-S-E-A-R-C-H, you should try it sometime.

[Flinthrop]

What more is there to add? Your questions have been answered. You choose to not believe the answers. Your last post to Andy proves you don't care to get answers.
Your comments would suggest that you haven't bothered to read all of the posts in this thread. Go back and actually read the posts and then you'll be able to make more informed comments.

I've read pages and pages of listening impresions of white van speaker by people justifying falling for the scam. They were very impressed by the sound and quality of their speakers "for the money".
What does a white van speaker scam even remotely have to do with horizontally arrayed speakers?? Please, go back and actually read the posts in this thread and then you'll know what's going on and will be able to make an intelligent contribution to this thread. If you don't have anything useful to add to this thread in regard to horizontally arrayed speakers but are instead just looking to stir things up, then please show some courtesy and go participate in another thread.

[Æ]

Strangely I just googled "dumb monkeys". amazingly I didn't come up with a picture of my boss! ;)

Rene

Ya, what if your boss GOOGLED you? What picture would he come up with? :)

We could sure get a lot of mileage out of this thread if we decided to keep it going. But I've got some spraying to do today. I was thinking maybe I'd spray some enclosures banana yellow.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

ya, What If Your Boss Googled You? What Picture Would He Come Up With? :)

We Could Sure Get A Lot Of Mileage Out Of This Thread If We Decided To Keep It Going. But I've Got Some Spraying To Do Today. I Was Thinking Maybe I'd Spray Some Enclosures Banana Yellow.

Bwahahahahahaha

[Flinthrop]

Ya, what if your boss GOOGLED you? What picture would he come up with? :)

We could sure get a lot of mileage out of this thread if we decided to keep it going. But I've got some spraying to do today. I was thinking maybe I'd spray some enclosures banana yellow.
Spray the enclosures banana yellow... that's some funny, funny stuff! Hey here's a crazy idea... what would happen if you were to suddenly start acting like a mature adult and stop ruining this thread for everyone else with your juvenile posts?

By the way, we're still waiting on you to share with us those horizontally arrayed speakers that you say you heard. You did hear them, didn't you? Let's hope that your nose doesn't start growing! But if it does then you could paint it banana yellow! Doh!

[time]

By the way, we're still waiting on you to share with us those horizontally arrayed speakers that you say you heard. You did hear them, didn't you? Let's hope that your nose doesn't start growing! But if it does then you could paint it banana yellow! Doh!

Good idea. Then he could share with us what banana yellow smells like too.

[killa]

Hey Thomas, your last name reminds of a skid mark in your underwear. Ha ha ha! Get it? Brown = skid mark? Tee hee! Toilet humor sure is fun for us 7th graders, isn't it? Fart! Turd!

That explains it. I think you need a nap

[Flinthrop]

How do you know that what someone is telling you about sound matches what you think they're telling you?
That's never come up as a problem for me, so the point is moot.

How many people here have told you that there are problems with horizontally arrayed speakers, and yet you insist they give you some flowery adjectives to describe something that is better experienced first hand.
It's so hard to have a good faith discussion with those that are dishonest and continually lie and purposely misrepresent my words. I haven't "insisted" on anything... I asked for listening impressions. If you want to give them to me, fine, if not, I don't care. And seeing as you're still having a hard time grasping that simple concept, I'll ask you once again: What do you care whether or not I want to use listening impressions as a part of the equation in choosing what speaker project I want to build? Are you one of those controlling type people that insists that everyone do it your way or else they're wrong? Life's too short to get all worked up about whether or not I find listening impressions useful, so just take a deep breath and don't concern yourself with what method that I choose to build my speaker projects.

What is so hard about going to an audio outlet, finding a set that resembles what you're after, and hearing for yourself whether or not you like it? It's called R-E-S-E-A-R-C-H, you should try it sometime.
You're kidding, right? You're just messing with me, right? You are aware that commercially built horizontally arrayed speakers are just about nonexistant in the marketplace, aren't you? And you are aware that it's that scarcity that has led me to be asking for horizontally arrayed speaker listening impressions in this thread, aren't you? So you are just messing with me, right?

[Flinthrop]

Good idea. Then he could share with us what banana yellow smells like too.
I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway... instead of ruining this thread with your inane and immature comments, do you have anything useful to add on this threads topic of horizontally arrayed speakers?

[Flinthrop]

That explains it. I think you need a nap
I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway... instead of ruining this thread with your inane and immature comments, do you have anything useful to add on this thread's topic of horizontally arrayed speakers?

[Thomas Brown]

Is there a reason why most speaker designs have narrow baffles with the speakers in a row. I have always like the look of a speaker like Westlakes. I would like to build something like the Magna *** Laudes with the woofers on either side and the midrange and tweeter up the middle. What are the compromises?

OP with real question


With a crossover point low enough, there is no compromise of having the woofers on the sides. You could put them on the back, for that matter, if the XO point is low enough, because the wavelengths get pretty long below about 250 Hz

a real answer to a real question


Nothing wrong with that kind of driver arrangement. I think most people want the vertical line of speakers because it works best in the location they intend to place the speakers.

Provided the baffle step is adequately taken into account, your proposed driver arrangement is a good one. The key in this type of three way is to keep the mid-tweet vertically located so that horizontal off-axis response doesn't contain any nulls.

another real answer


There is a reason . . . it's called imaging.
You need to be equal distance from the left and right loudspeakers for the best imaging. Having drivers placed on a baffle horizontally only makes it more difficult to be equidistant from all the drivers. But if you are only interested in a diffuse sound field rather than pin point imaging, then you probably don't care/won't mind.

But as far as the actual width of the baffle goes, it probably has more to do with form follows function - aesthetics. You want something that looks good, fits into your living room.

another real answer

[time]

I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway... instead of ruining this thread with your inane and immature comments, do you have anything useful to add on this threads topic of horizontally arrayed speakers?

Your 100% correct. I do not have "anything useful to add on this threads topic of horizontally arrayed speakers."

The topic has been well explained by others with much more knowledge than I. I enjoyed their insight and judgement and now have an understanding of why there are very few commercial offerings using this design.

I could go into detail about what I've learned but it would be much easier if you read the replies you've gotten.

I have not heard a speaker with this design but I imagine they sound banana-ey. It's only a guess, don't hold me to it. They could sound like a strawberry that does'nt taste like a strawberry. I'll try to find some and let you know.

[BasTek]

If you are here for "listening impressions"you are in the wrong forum. Try AVS, you will feel more "like home" over there.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

You're kidding, right? You're just messing with me, right? You are aware that commercially built horizontally arrayed speakers are just about nonexistant in the marketplace, aren't you? And you are aware that it's that scarcity that has led me to be asking for horizontally arrayed speaker listening impressions in this thread, aren't you? So you are just messing with me, right?

Well, maybe there's a reason for that scarcity . . . or hasn't it ever occurred to you? Hmmmmm?

Look for yourself. How many professional studio monitors have dual 12" woofers side by side? Think there's a reason for that? You think that after many years of studio monitor experience, and feedback from the end consumer, that if such a system was preferred, that it would be commonplace?

So yeah, just messin' with ya . . . :rolleyes:

Build it!!! Quit pussyfooting around, and build it. Boxes are cheap. If you like it, you've wasted nothing. If not, just take the components and build a different arrangement. For all you know, all the positive statements, including myself, about the arrangement, may not matter. Because if the crossover implementation isn't good, the sound will suck, and it won't be because of side-by-side woofers, but you might assume that to be the reason.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

your 100% Correct. I Do Not Have "anything Useful To Add On This Threads Topic Of Horizontally Arrayed Speakers."

The Topic Has Been Well Explained By Others With Much More Knowledge Than I. I Enjoyed Their Insight And Judgement And Now Have An Understanding Of Why There Are Very Few Commercial Offerings Using This Design.

I Could Go Into Detail About What I've Learned But It Would Be Much Easier If You Read The Replies You've Gotten.

I Have Not Heard A Speaker With This Design But I Imagine They Sound Banana-ey. It's Only A Guess, Don't Hold Me To It. They Could Sound Like A Strawberry That Does'nt Taste Like A Strawberry. I'll Try To Find Some And Let You Know.

Roflmao :D

[Andy_G]

Yes, it's good to state the obvious, but what is it in reference to? Who in this thread has said or implied that they do trust reviews? But having said that, would you mind sharing with us which speakers that Stereophile said sounded good and that you laughed at because to your ears they sounded bad?


Not really. It's like you didn't even bother to read any of the posts in this thread.

1. why would I go around making notes of which speaker is which, especially the bad ones.. the Bosendorfers come to mind.

2. Well, I tried, I've explained exactly what you will hear. Take it or leave it. :rolleyes:

[Thomas Brown]

this is just to much fun now, i can't resist. you mr. filthrope have made my day, obviously the guys that have tried to help the OP are just crazy loons, they have no idea waht they are talking about, haven't taken the time to offer free software for the diy community, have no proven designs, etc. etc., i guess they just picked up a couple of random books at the library then planned a conspiracy to make you unhappy.



Have you actually heard with your own ears speakers with a side-by-side driver arrangement, or is that just an educated guess on your part?

all just guessing


I came across a review of some Legacy speakers in Stereophile magazine, and the Legacys have horizontally arrayed midrange drivers, and according to the reviewer imaging is excellent, so apparently diffuse imaging is not in of itself a byproduct of horizontally arrayed drivers.
But I'm open to others' experiences in that regard.

see below (there are no commercial designs)


Please, if you disagree with me there's no need to be rude and insulting about it with garbage like the rolled eyes icon. Can't we discuss our differences in a civil manner?

So you think that Stereophile routinely lies about the expensive speakers that they review?

more guessing, of course guessing without being paid


I think you're reading way more into the review process than is really there... If what the reviewer says about that piece of equipment interests a person, then that person can go to to a dealer and hear for themselves

you just answered your ?, use your own ears


I'll ask you again, and please no generalizations... which expensive speakers that Stereophile gave good reviews to have sounded bad to you when you heard them with your own ears?

jbl's L series 4 way towers



current speaker design is a mature technology in that it's relatively easy to design and build a great sounding speaker these days.

if its relatively easy to design and build great sounding speakers, then get to work


You're misrepresenting what's going on in this thread... horizontally arrayed speakers are not the norm, so before I go spend a bunch of time and money building a pair for myself I'd like to learn all I can about them. Assertions were made in this thread in regard to the sound quality of horizontally arrayed speakers, and I made simple and sincere requests for those posters to back up their assertions with actual listening experiences.
And honestly you're again making misrepresentations... Where I come from using the rolling eyes icon in response to a disagreement in opinion is not a form of respect, so I said something about it.
Yes I understand the theory, but like I said in another post you can quote theory until the cows come home. listening experiance with horizontally arrayed speakers? Did you notice diffused imaging? How about soundstaging depth and height? Any other pros and cons?


you said it was easy to build great sounding speakers above
diffused imaging was almost immediately addresed
other pros and cons were also addressed


LOL, that's some funny, funny stuff! But seriously, if you don't have anything useful to add to this thread's topic of horizontally arrayed speakers, then please quit your thread crapping and go play somewhere else. Or was that too intense for you?

this is useful?


What I said in another post: The point is that I want to have some idea of what a horizontally arrayed set of speakers sounds like to a real live human being's ears before I go to the time and expense of building a pair for myself. That's all I'm asking for... don't tell me what on paper they should sound like, and don't go attacking me and making me out to be the bad guy just because I want some specific answers.

And I don't think describing how a speaker sounds has any relation what-so-ever to describing what a banana tastes like. But to each his own.

as opposed to the fake dead peoples ears that are currently listening


Really? I hijacked the thread? The topic of this thread is horizontally arrayed speakers, and if you'll go back and read my posts you'll see that horizontally arrayed speakers have been the main focus of my posts. The only time I've deviated from that is when I have to take the time to deal with thread crappers such as yourself that want to stir things up with their false accusations.

If you don't have anything useful to add to this thread, then please show some common courtesy and don't post here.

no this collection of dribble is normal for a thread you didn't start


Hi Pookey! Are ya havin' fun wrecking this thread? Atta boy! It's Saturday and you don't have school today, so you'll have all day to sit at the computer and act like a clown! But don't tell your mom what you're doing!

Say, I'm still waiting for you to share with us just which horizontally arrayed speakers that you personally heard that gave diffuse imaging. Would you be able to do that at some point? I'll bet you will!

But wait a minute... is it possible that you were lying and you've never actually heard a a pair of horizontally arrayed speakers for yourself, but you wanted to sound important so you said that you did? Hmmmm... wouldn't that be crazy! So whadya think Pookey, am I off base on this one?

you have convinced me with such mature ways - it is a conspiracy against horizontal speakers, but only if you want them


Yes, it's good to state the obvious, but what is it in reference to? Who in this thread has said or implied that they do trust reviews?

you brought up a "good" review in stereophile.


I don't know why you're having such a hard time grasping such a simple and basic concept... i have been listening to music for a lot of years It ain't rocket science.

Again, it's amazing to me that I'm having to explain such a simple and basic concept... it's called in-for-ma-tion.

i too have been listening to music for many years, cool my speaker knowledge meter is now full, thank you lps, tapes, and cds.


Hey Thomas, your last name reminds of a skid mark in your underwear. Ha ha ha! Get it? Brown = skid mark? Tee hee! Toilet humor sure is fun for us 7th graders, isn't it? Fart! Turd!

this is really good!


If they shut it down it will be because of your and a few others immature and childish activities. It's sad that the actions of a few ruin it for everyone.


Your comments would suggest that you haven't bothered to read all of the posts in this thread. Go back and actually read the posts and then you'll be able to make more informed comments.

What does a white van speaker scam even remotely have to do with horizontally arrayed speakers?? go back and actually read the posts in this thread and then you'll know what's going on and will be able to make an intelligent contribution to this thread. If you don't have anything useful to add to this thread, but are instead just looking to stir things up, then please show some courtesy and go participate in another thread.

white van speakers rule, wheres my keys!


Spray the enclosures banana yellow... that's some funny, funny stuff! Hey here's a crazy idea... what would happen if you were to suddenly start acting like a mature adult and stop ruining this thread for everyone else with your juvenile posts?

Let's hope that your nose doesn't start growing! But if it does then you could paint it banana yellow! Doh!

hmmm yellow speakers, maybe they will sound "brighter" to the eyes


It's so hard to have a good faith discussion with those that are dishonest and continually lie and purposely misrepresent my words. I have "insisted" on listening impressions. If you want to give them to me, fine, if not, I don't care. And seeing as you're still having a hard time grasping that simple concept, I'll ask you once again. Are you one of those controlling type people that insists that everyone do it your way or else they're wrong? Life's too short to get all worked up, so just take a deep breath and don't concern yourself with what method that I choose to build my speaker projects.

You're kidding, right? You're just messing with me, right? You are aware that commercially built horizontally arrayed speakers are just about nonexistant in the marketplace, aren't you? And you are aware that it's that scarcity that has led me to be asking for horizontally arrayed speaker listening impressions in this thread, aren't you? So you are just messing with me, right?

its all lies and misrepresentation here
earlier you "quoted" stereophile did a reveiew on them, then you named a couple more companys offering them, sorry lies and misrepresentation again



I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway... instead of ruining this thread with your inane and immature comments, do you have anything useful to add on this threads topic of horizontally arrayed speakers?

the first page has useful info, then you chimed in, more useful info was supplied, you didn't like the answers, more useful info was shared, you some how thought people were just making things up, and here we are toilet humor, ba-nay-nay's, monkeys, non existent (but some how availiable) speakers.. :rolleyes:

[Flinthrop]

Your 100% correct. I do not have "anything useful to add on this threads topic of horizontally arrayed speakers."
So then why thread crap and ruin it for those of us that don't have all the answers? Are you that petty of an individual that you can't live and let live?

[Flinthrop]

[QUOTE=Thomas Brown;1639713]"There is a reason . . . it's called imaging. You need to be equal distance from the left and right loudspeakers for the best imaging. Having drivers placed on a baffle horizontally only makes it more difficult to be equidistant from all the drivers. But if you are only interested in a diffuse sound field rather than pin point imaging, then you probably don't care/won't mind."

another real answer
That's a "real" answer? It turns out that that answer was later shown to be false by another poster. So much for real answers.
You seem to better at making immature potty jokes and thread crapping than at recognizing any "real" answers.

[Flinthrop]

If you are here for "listening impressions"you are in the wrong forum. Try AVS, you will feel more "like home" over there.
Really? Were you put in charge of who get's to do what on this site? Do we have to check in with you before we post our comments or questions?

Nice cheap shot with the AVS comment, by the way, and also nice thread crap. Instead of thread crapping, I don't suppose that you would have anything useful to add to this thread in the way of horizontally arrayed speakers, would you? Or will you be joining the other 7th graders in this thread and engaging in their toilet humor? Tee hee!

[killa]

I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway... instead of ruining this thread with your inane and immature comments, do you have anything useful to add on this thread's topic of horizontally arrayed speakers?

I already added side by side woofers do not sound good when crossed to high (typical mtm config) and that I have personally heard the effect myself but you don't want to hear that apparently.

[Flinthrop]

Well, maybe there's a reason for that scarcity . . . or hasn't it ever occurred to you? Hmmmmm?
Well duh.:rolleyes: And because they are so scarce, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, that's why I'm being a bit cautious about investing time and money into that type of design, and it would make sense to gather as much information - including listening impressions if available - as possible before deciding whether it's worth taking the plunge or not? Hmmmm?

Look for yourself. How many professional studio monitors have dual 12" woofers side by side? Think there's a reason for that? You think that after many years of studio monitor experience, and feedback from the end consumer, that if such a system was preferred, that it would be commonplace?
12" woofers? What are you talking about??? This discussion isn't about subwoofers, it's about a side-by-side MMT arrangement. But don't let little things like the facts get in the way of making your points. Your lack of comprehension of what's being discussed is starting to concern me.

Build it!!! Quit pussyfooting around, and build it.
My current living arrangements prevent me from building speakers on a whim. But thank you for making recommendations before having all the facts.

For all you know, all the positive statements, including myself, about the arrangement....
All what positive statements? Do you even know what thread you're participating in? Or where you are right now? Like I say your lack of comprehension is starting to concern me.

Because if the crossover implementation isn't good, the sound will suck, and it won't be because of side-by-side woofers, but you might assume that to be the reason....
Thank you Captain Obvious, but I've been building speakers for twenty-five years, and I'm pretty sure that I won't have too much trouble recognizing crossover or side-by-side a side aberrations. But if I do I'll post it here and I'm sure I'll get all kinds of useful advice as to what the problem is.

[killa]

Thank you Captain Obvious, but I've been building speakers for twenty-five years, and I'm pretty sure that I won't have too much trouble recognizing crossover or side-by-side a side aberrations. But if I do I'll post it here and I'm sure I'll get all kinds of useful advice as to what the problem is.

Well then why do you ask a question that there has been an answer to for many years? Stop arguing with everyone and go read some books on speaker design.
Just curious, do you work for FOX?

[Æ]

1. why would I go around making notes of which speaker is which, especially the bad ones.. the Bosendorfers come to mind.

2. Well, I tried, I've explained exactly what you will hear. Take it or leave it. :rolleyes:

Hey Andy, the "Epitome" of horizontal loudspeakers! Bosendorfer 901.
Maybe Mr. Flinpthrot should build himself some of these. BwaHahahahaha!
Nothing beats the sound of side by side woofers, especially when imaging is of little or no concern. Ha! :D

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee59/bigbencivic/IMG_0751.jpg

[Flinthrop]

1. why would I go around making notes of which speaker is which, especially the bad ones.. the Bosendorfers come to mind.
Who asked you to take notes? You're the one that made the representation that Stereophile routinely lies in their reviews in order to satisfy their advertisers, and you must have based that assertion on some type of personal experience, so all I was doing was asking what your personal experience was in that regard. Am I being too demanding?
So how about those Bosendorfers... what good things did Stereophile say about them that caused you to laugh when you heard them for yourself? And seeing as its so common place for Stereophile to misrepresent how their review speakers sound, would you mind citing a couple of other examples?

Well, I tried, I've explained exactly what you will hear. Take it or leave it. :rolleyes:
OK great... beaming and mixed up directional cues and imaging issues... I can appreciate that. Now apparently it's taboo and insulting in this thread to dare to ask the experts questions in regard to their own real live personal listening experiences (that's what the AVS forum is for!), but what the heck I've come this far so I might as well try it one more time... which horizontal arrayed speakers have you heard with your own ears that caused you to form your opinions about beaming and imaging issues and what-not. What was the driver array? Tweeter on top? In the middle? What brand of drivers were used (if you know). Horizontally arrayed speakers are pretty rare, so surely you'll have them etched in your memory and you won't have to consult your notes for this one!
And be sure and add some rolled eyes icons in your answer. That's how we do things in this forum... when we disagree with somebody's opinion we insult them to prove our superiority over that person. It works like a charm! :rolleyes:

[Andy_G]

but I've been building speakers for twenty-five years, .

Would luv to see some of them ! :rolleyes:

[BasTek]

Really? Were you put in charge of who get's to do what on this site? Do we have to check in with you before we post our comments or questions?

Nice cheap shot with the AVS comment, by the way, and also nice thread crap. Instead of thread crapping, I don't suppose that you would have anything useful to add to this thread in the way of horizontally arrayed speakers, would you? Or will you be joining the other 7th graders in this thread and engaging in their toilet humor? Tee hee!

AVS is a great site, I'm a member there. I just feel you're not comfortable here, you seem like a fish out of the water.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Thank you Captain Obvious, but I've been building speakers for twenty-five years, and I'm pretty sure that I won't have too much trouble recognizing crossover or side-by-side a side aberrations. But if I do I'll post it here and I'm sure I'll get all kinds of useful advice as to what the problem is.

For someone building speakers for 25 years, you sure have a lot of noob questions.

And if you bothered to read my posts, you'll find that I concurred with those who said that with a low crossover point, side by side woofers won't present a problem.

Then again, I get the feeling you like to find yourself offended, and will do what you can to be offended. Personally, I found this thread to be quite fun, especially since you don't seem to be able to take a joke. Which of course, makes the enjoyment on my part all the better.

:rolleyes:

[djg]

Flinthorp, get a grip man! The regulars here are just messing with you. The depth of talent and experience here beats any other forum, HTguide excepted, perhaps. I am not talking about myself. I have been building speakers for over forty years. Never designed one though.

Try being nice. The same members who have been ridiculing you will respond in kind, I am sure.

[Thomas Brown]

Well duh.:rolleyes: don't you think that maybe, just maybe, I'm being a bit cautious about investing in that type of 12" woofer design, and it would make sense to gather as much information as possible before deciding whether it's worth taking the side-by-side MMT arrangement plunge or not? Hmmmm?

This discussion isn't about subwoofers, it's about a lack of my comprehension.

My current living arrangements prevent me from making sense, But thank you for making recommendations before having all the facts.

All I want is positive statements about my lack of comprehension.

Thank you Captain Obvious, but I've been building speakers for twenty-five years, and I'm pretty sure that I have trouble recognizing all kinds of useful advice. I do post here and that is what the problem is.

:eek:

[Æ]

:eek:

Wow, that was the longest response I've ever seen!
Don't bite your tongue.

[Flinthrop]

this is just to much fun now, i can't resist. you mr. filthrope have made my day, obviously the guys that have tried to help the OP are just crazy loons, they have no idea waht they are talking about, haven't taken the time to offer free software for the diy community, have no proven designs, etc. etc., i guess they just picked up a couple of random books at the library then planned a conspiracy to make you unhappy.
It's very hard to conduct a good-faith discus ion with individuals that purposely lie and misrepresent my words. Who said or implied that anybody in this thread were crazy loons or didn't know what they were talking about? Who said anything about a conspiracy?

jbl's L series 4 way towers
Sigh. What did Stereophile say about the JBL's that you disagreed with when you heard them? Or is it insulting to ask you what your ears heard, and instead I should I just trust you because you're an expert?:rolleyes:

if its relatively easy to design and build great sounding speakers, then get to work
Don't tell me what to do.

you said it was easy to build great sounding speakers
Are saying that it isn't?

diffused imaging was almost immediately addressed
Don't let little things like the facts get in the way of what you have to say... opposing opinions were presented in regard to diffused imaging... which opinion should we believe?

other pros and cons were also addressed
Show me where.

this is useful?
Go to the dictionary and look up the word "hypocrite".

as opposed to the fake dead peoples ears that are currently listening
See above about being a hypocrite in regard to contributing useful information about horizontally arrayed speakers.

no this collection of dribble is normal for a thread you didn't start
See above about being a hypocrite. The off topic dribble came from you and the other thread crappers that wanted to derail this thread. My only sin was responding to your dribble.

you have convinced me with such mature ways - it is a conspiracy against horizontal speakers, but only if you want them
That's a bizarre statement and I have no idea what you're talking about.

you brought up a "good" review in stereophile.
I don't know what that has to do with anything, but you're twisting the truth... I didn't say anything about a "good" review... I simply stated that Stereophile's reviewer found the Legacys (a horizontally arrayed speaker) to have great imaging and soundstaging. But don't let a little thing like truth and the facts get in the way of making your point.

i too have been listening to music for many years, cool my speaker knowledge meter is now full, thank you lps, tapes, and cds.
Good for you, but what does that have to do with the topic of this thread, which is horizontally arrayed speakers?

white van speakers rule, wheres my keys!
More thread crapping. Should we be surprised?

hmmm yellow speakers, maybe they will sound "brighter" to the eyes
More thread crapping. Should we be surprised?

its all lies and misrepresentation here
It is by you anyway.

earlier you "quoted" stereophile did a reveiew on them, then you named a couple more companys offering them, sorry lies and misrepresentation again
I didn't "quote" Stereophile about anything, and the Legacy speakers that Stereophile reviewed are not available for audition in my area, so it would be pretty tough for me to go to listen to them, wouldn't it?:rolleyes:
I have no idea what you're talking about in regard to "a couple of more companys offering them", and your lack of coherency is starting to scare me. Perhaps you should get a good night's rest and come back to this thread when you head is clearer.

Instead of contributing anything useful to this thread in regard to horizontally arrayed speakers, you seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time trying to play gottcha with the comments that I've made to other posters. Isn't that a rather petty and vindictive way for you to be spending your time? If the other posters have a problem with what I've said to them, don't you think it would be more appropriate for them to respond to me instead of you? Do you always stick your nose into other people's business?

....then you you didn't like the answers....
Sorry, I don't see it that way. I was lied to and insulted... that's what I didn't like. And everything was under control until the thread crappers such as yourself came crashing in and ruined it for everyone. That was very boorish and rude of you. Didn't your parents teach you any manners?

you some how thought people were just making things upnon existent (but some how availiable) speakers.. :rolleyes:
You're making very little sense, but if I'm reading you correctly you're saying that I said that horizontally arrayed speakers were "nonexistent" - if you'll go back and carefully reread my post you'll see that what I really said was that they were "almost" nonexistent. Can you see the difference? The modifier "almost" means that there are some available, but not very many. Does that not line up with reality?
It's funny that you would try to turn the tables on me in regard to people making things up, because it's you that has displayed a pattern in your posts of making things up in regard to what I've said. It's a crazy mixed up world where hypocrisy abounds, isn't it?:rolleyes:

[E Biddy]

12" woofers? What are you talking about??? This discussion isn't about subwoofers, it's about a side-by-side MMT arrangement. But don't let little things like the facts get in the way of making your points. Your lack of comprehension of what's being discussed is starting to concern me.

Actually my original post was not about a side by side MMT arrangement, it was about 12" woofers in an WWMT speaker with the woofers horizontally aligned, and it is about use in a studio situation. One of the speakers I referenced actually has a pair of 15s horizontally aligned, it was not about whether an MTM is flipped on it's side.

What I have learned

1. If speakers are mounted less than one wavelength of the crossover frequency, there should not be major imaging problems.

2. The further apart they are though, it will narrow the dispersion (which will actually help in a studio situation)

3. Adjustments will have to be made to compensate for the BSC from the original design, which is probably in the crossover (how can I tell? and can this be taken care of by using an active crossover on the woofers?)

4. Monkeys like bananas and bananas are yellow and never put a :rolleyes: in your post because someone might get offended (I think I just violated that one).

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Don't let little things like the facts get in the way of what you have to say... opposing opinions were presented in regard to diffused imaging... which opinion should we believe?



Exactly.

Don't let facts get in the way of opinions . . .

:eek: :rolleyes:

[Thomas Brown]

my hypocricy knows no bounds!

[Jeff B.]

Actually my original post was not about a side by side MMT arrangement, it was about 12" woofers in an WWMT speaker with the woofers horizontally aligned, and it is about use in a studio situation. One of the speakers I referenced actually has a pair of 15s horizontally aligned, it was not about whether an MTM is flipped on it's side.

What I have learned

1. If speakers are mounted less than one wavelength of the crossover frequency, there should not be major imaging problems.

2. The further apart they are though, it will narrow the dispersion (which will actually help in a studio situation)

3. Adjustments will have to be made to compensate for the BSC from the original design, which is probably in the crossover (how can I tell? and can this be taken care of by using an active crossover on the woofers?)

4. Monkeys like bananas and bananas are yellow and never put a :rolleyes: in your post because someone might get offended (I think I just violated that one).


1. The closer the better, and the lower the crossover the better, but generally speaking you are correct, and for the speaker you have described it should work fine if you observe these guidelines.

2. I don't know if it will help in the manner you are thinking the "narrowness" will be a lobe with nulls on either side. We usually don't want that too narrow. But, having set up two recording studios, if the speaker and engineer's locations do not change much it can work fine as well.

3. I doubt you will have to apply any baffle step compensation for a speaker this wide, especially, if it is near a wall. If you have Excel you can download my Diffraction and Boundary Simulator tool and model this for yourself.

4. Did you know that there are over 1000 different varieties of bananas, but that people usually only eat one type and that is all? Leaves a lot for the monkeys, I guess. ;)

I almost feel like apologizing for what this thread turned into since you asked a legitimate question.

Jeff B.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

wow! i am not learning anything.:eek:

[Jeff B.]

Originally Posted by Flinthrop http://techtalk.parts-express.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1639784#post1639784)

Don't let little things like the facts get in the way of what you have to say... opposing opinions were presented in regard to diffused imaging... which opinion should we believe?





Exactly.

Don't let facts get in the way of opinions . . .

:eek: :rolleyes:

It would appear that he does not want facts or acoustical theory but only wants to know how it sounded to someone who has listened to it and he doesn't want just opinions, because with differing opinions you don't know who to believe, so we had better get back to some facts, but don't let them get in the way of your opinion. Have I got it now?

[E Biddy]

Thanks Jeff!!!!!

Since I'm looking at taking an existing design (magna "kum" laude), I'm worried about the bsc already being there for a much narrower baffle than my speaker would be and have the bass be overwhelming (I don't know enough about crossover design to recognize it yet). The ultimate plan is to eventually mount them into a wall anyway.

Eric

[E Biddy]

Jeff, is there a way to put a second speaker in your diffraction and boundary simulator?

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I almost feel like apologizing for what this thread turned into since you asked a legitimate question.

Jeff B.

It is too late to apologize!!!!

http://chud.com/nextraimages/BENNYHILLC&U2-1.jpg

[Andy_G]

It would appear that he does not want facts or acoustical theory but only wants to know how it sounded to someone who has listened to it and he doesn't want just opinions, because with differing opinions you don't know who to believe, so we had better get back to some facts, but don't let them get in the way of your opinion. Have I got it now?

In my opinion, you seem to have got the facts reasonably correct.

[Flint]

I'm worried about the bsc already being there for a much narrower baffle than my speaker would be and have the bass be overwhelming...

Bear in mind that the issue with BSC is the bass energy wrapping around the cabinet, and it will do that for a given size cabinet whether it's in portrait or landscape orientation. At least this is true if the speaker is on a stand or otherwise not surrounded with stuff that could effectively increase the baffle size. So if your horizontal shape is about the same height as the Magna's width, then BSC might be correct as is.

[rene]

I have a good picture of me (http://cdn.okcimg.com/php/load_okc_image.php/images/16/150x150/558x800/128x266/489x626/0/4008263184522571842.jpeg)that i would like to show up if you googled me. it'll explain it all.

Now as for every thing else going on in this crazy thread.

if you paint them "banana" they'll smell yellow.

A good faith conversation? from what i have been reading, it's rather obvious that all the "thread crapping" seems to be flowing in good faith from your busy little fingers.

every post you seem to make, you have to argue with someone about one thing or another. childish name calling and all in all acting like someone who throws a tantrum when they don't get their own way. the MATURE thing to do would have been to walk away from this post long ago. But you keep coming back for more and more. I'd have to guess you're thriving on this, giving you some sort of satisfaction trying to prove all us immature children wrong.

and so what if you've been building speakers for that long, unless you can provide proof of comment it's just words. I'm a chef and I have seen people who have been chefs for 30 years that i wouldn't trust to make me toast. just because you've been doing it for that many years means you're any good at it.

As for the other "children" here. I have spent many hours talking to some of them on here, and many more hours talking to them in real life. I'll take their judgment and opinion on anything audio related in a heart beat. and not from someone who joins a forum and with in a VERY short time of posting starts trashing every one and their skills in this field.

Rene

[Flinthrop]

Stop arguing with everyone and go read some books on speaker design.
There apparently are some slow witted amongst us, so I'm going to try and make this very simple... if you make a post with a negative reference to me, I'm going to defend myself and respond to that post. If you make a post without a negative reference to me, then I won't respond to that post, and there won't be an argument, and we won't be having all this drama, and we can all get on with our lives. Can you grasp that simple concept? If not then please PM me I'll be happy to lay it out in simpler terms.

In regard to Fox, I get all my information from CNN... I especially like Keith Oberman.

[Flinthrop]

Nothing beats the sound of side by side woofers, especially when imaging is of little or no concern.
You've never even heard a pair of Bose speakers, have you?

[Flinthrop]

AVS is a great site, I'm a member there. I just feel you're not comfortable here, you seem like a fish out of the water.
Oh I dunno, I think I fit in just fine with the other 7th graders around here. Say, you wouldn't have anything useful to add to this thread in the way of horizontally arrayed speakers would you?

[Flinthrop]

For someone building speakers for 25 years, you sure have a lot of noob questions.
Unlike you I'm not narrow minded and arrogant about my speaker building, and in order to keep learning I'm always willing to ask questions.

And if you bothered to read my posts, you'll find that I concurred with those who said that with a low crossover point, side by side woofers won't present a problem.
Won't present what problem?

Which of course, makes the enjoyment on my part all the better.
What a sad, lonely life you must lead if that's how you get your jollys.

[Flinthrop]

4. Did you know that there are over 1000 different varieties of bananas, but that people usually only eat one type and that is all? Leaves a lot for the monkeys, I guess. ;)

I almost feel like apologizing for what this thread turned into since you asked a legitimate question.

Jeff B.
You should apologize for fanning the flames with your childish banana comment. Grow up.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

You should apologize for fanning the flames with your childish banana comment. Grow up.

The entertainment just keeps on coming!!!

:D

[Flinthrop]

It would appear that he does not want facts or acoustical theory but only wants to know how it sounded to someone who has listened to it and he doesn't want just opinions, because with differing opinions you don't know who to believe, so we had better get back to some facts, but don't let them get in the way of your opinion. Have I got it now?
Please, if you have anything to say about me,show a little common couretesy and say it to me and not the other 7th graders in this thread, OK? Why fan the flames.

In regard to you comments, what are you talking about?? Did you even bother to read the posts in this thread? Did you read the posts where listening experiences were offered, including your own, and I said thank you very much, that was helpful? Have I demanded anything else after that? By all means don't let a little thing like the facts get in the way of what's actually been posted in this thread.

[djg]

It's Olbermann, Flinthorp. And he's on MSNBC, not CNN.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Unlike you I'm not narrow minded and arrogant about my speaker building, and in order to keep learning I'm always willing to ask questions.

You may ask questions, but for the answers you don't like, you sure seem to take offense if they don't meet your lofty expectations. I ask plenty of questions too, but you wouldn't know that because you can't seem to see past your nose.

Won't present what problem?

Yeah, won't present a problem. Or do I need to elaborate what that means with some flowery language that you "might not know to believe."

What a sad, lonely life you must lead if that's how you get your jollys.

I have quite a few avenues of enjoyment, you just happen to be the latest.

It's obvious you aren't around here much, or even have a clue as to what the folks around here do.

I for one welcome you. We all needed a good laugh.

Now, how about some pictures of all those wonderful speakers you've built?

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Please, if you have anything to say about me,show a little common couretesy and say it to me and not the other 7th graders in this thread, OK? Why fan the flames.

In regard to you comments, what are you talking about?? Did you even bother to read the posts in this thread? Did you read the posts where listening experiences were offered, including your own, and I said thank you very much, that was helpful? Have I demanded anything else after that? By all means don't let a little thing like the facts get in the way of what's actually been posted in this thread.

But fanning the flames is so fun!!! I mean, if you would quit responding, the fire would go out.

Perhaps you ought to change your name to gasoline . . . :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You're not interested in facts . . . obviously. It seems all you care about are the opinions of people you don't know.

[djg]

Why is this thread only rated two stars?

[Flinthrop]

In my opinion, you seem to have got the facts reasonably correct.
Hi Sunshine! Still waitin' on ya to provide us with your listening experiences of those speakers that Stereophile lied about in their reviews! Can ya do that for us?
And still waitin' on ya to provide us with your listening impressions of horizontally arrayed speakers! And let me make this very, very, very clear so that even the dimmest of us can understand: It's a REQUEST, not a DEMAND. If you don't want to tell me then that's fine with me! I'm OK with it! I'm good with it! I don't have a problem with it! No problem what-so-ever! I know it's wrong to dare to question the experts so I'll take whatever anybody tells me as Gospel truth!

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Why is this thread only rated two stars?

I know!!! It should be at least a 4 star. There's TONS of useful information, and a good 30 minutes of hilarity to go along.

Vote!!!!

[Pete Schumacher ®]

... so I'll take whatever anybody tells me as Gospel truth!

OK, I'll take a stab at it.

Don't build with side by side woofers. You'll wind up with a stiff neck cocking your head to the side to keep the imaging right side up!!!

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/images-misc-sizes/dog-with-tilted-head.jpg

[Flinthrop]

every post you seem to make, you have to argue with someone about one thing or another. childish name calling and all in all acting like someone who throws a tantrum when they don't get their own way. the MATURE thing to do would have been to walk away from this post long ago. But you keep coming back for more and more. I'd have to guess you're thriving on this, giving you some sort of satisfaction trying to prove all us immature children wrong.
Well alright, anther thread crapper! Welcome, you'll fit right in!

I explained this in anther post, but like I said there seems to be some very slow witted people amongst us, so perhaps it bears repeating: If you make a post with a negative reference to me in it, like yours did, then I'm going to respond to that post and tell my side of the story. OK? Are you with me so far? Let me set up a hypothetical for you: If you hadn't of chimed in with your thread crapping post, then right now I wouldn't be typing this response, and the shrillness would die down and everybody would be happy.:) Does that make sense? Are you still with me?
So to review - you don't say anything negative about me, and I then won't say anything negative about you, and then we can get back to discussing horizontally arrayed speakers. Get it? If not, then PM me and I'll put it in even simpler terms for ya. ;)

[djg]

Well then Pete, how do you explain this?

[Flinthrop]

But fanning the flames is so fun!!!
Like I said, it's sad that the only way you can get your jollys is at other people's expense. You're an example of what happens when parents don't spank their kids.

I mean, if you would quit responding, the fire would go out.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If negative things weren't posted then I wouldn't have to respond, right? and then there wouldn't be any flames to put out?

Perhaps you ought to change your name to gasoline . . . :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:Oh no, not the rolled eyes icon! Ouch, ouch, you're hurting me! Stop it, make the icky man go away!

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Well then Pete, how do you explain this?

There are two woofers for sure, but one of them is listening . . .

:D

[djg]

I stand corrected.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Like I said, it's sad that the only way you can get your jollys is at other people's expense. You're an example of what happens when parents don't spank their kids.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If negative things weren't posted then I wouldn't have to respond, right? and then there wouldn't be any flames to put out?
Oh no, not the rolled eyes icon! Ouch, ouch, you're hurting me! Stop it, make the icky man go away!

It's not the only way I get my jollies, it just happens to be the current method. Later today, I'm going to go fry ants with a magnifying glass!!!

No one HAS to respond . . . but as long as it's entertaining, I'll be sure to participate.

And yes, I got spanked quite a bit as a kid, and deservedly so. But in the lessons, my Dad taught me about this thing called, "A Sense Of Humor."

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Flinthrop]

OK, I'll take a stab at it.
Don't build with side by side woofers. You'll wind up with a stiff neck cocking your head to the side to keep the imaging right side up!!!
Thank you for that advice! Even though you've displayed a pattern of lying, foolishness, pettiness, and disrespect in this thread, I will none-the-less ignore that and accept your opinions as the truthful and accurate! Thank you once again!

[Flinthrop]

And yes, I got spanked quite a bit as a kid, and deservedly so. But in the lessons, my Dad taught me about this thing called, "A Sense Of Humor."
Apparently the humor lesson wasn't learned very well, because what you're doing in this thread is not funny. It's rude and disruptive and hinders anyone from discussing horizontally arrayed speakers. Your Dad must be proud. Go to the dictionary and look up the word "courtesy" and see if you can't teach yourself that principle before it's too late.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Apparently the humor lesson wasn't learned very well, because what you're doing in this thread is not funny. It's rude and disruptive and hinders anyone from discussing horizontally arrayed speakers. Your Dad must be proud. Go to the dictionary and look up the word "courtesy" and see if you can't teach yourself that principle before it's too late.

Well, I'm sure laughing. So my lessons were taken to heart apparently.

Don't misunderstand Filthrope, I'm a fan of horizontally arrayed woofers, when the application calls for it.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/pete_schumacher/TheSubsAreFinallyIn.jpg

[Flinthrop]

Actually my original post was not about a side by side MMT arrangement, it was about 12" woofers in an WWMT speaker with the woofers horizontally aligned, and it is about use in a studio situation. One of the speakers I referenced actually has a pair of 15s horizontally aligned, it was not about whether an MTM is flipped on it's side.
You're right, I missed that. I thought I could slip a question or two about MMT's into the thread, but I didn't realize that asking questions in order to educate one's self is looked down on. My bad, and I'll bow out.

4. Monkeys like bananas and bananas are yellow and never put a :rolleyes: in your post because someone might get offended (I think I just violated that one).
You seemed like a good guy at first... it disappointing to find out that you're a follower and not a leader. :rolleyes: Good luck with your speakers.

[Jeff B.]

Please, if you have anything to say about me,show a little common couretesy and say it to me and not the other 7th graders in this thread, OK? Why fan the flames.



I did respond to you directly. Twice. With explanations and experiences. Now I am sorry that I did after seeing your argumentative, offensive, and trollish behavior cause what could have been a decent discussion degenerate into the mess that it has become. Maybe I should delete those posts since they were a legitimate attempt to be helpful, and that is surely not in line with your objectives here. Common courtesy? Why not try to set an example for a change. I see very little courtesy in any of your posts.

[MrkCrwly]

I really don't have anything relevant to add to this thread, except that I did have some banana bread last week. You would think that monkeys would like banana bread but I don't think they do a lot of baking. I think it would be sweet if monkeys did bake since it would give them something to do with their over ripe bananas.

[Æ]

Hey, I'd like a couple of pieces of toast to go, with some sliced bananas on top.

Cool picture by the way. (I was thinking something along the very same lines) I hope it doesn't get you into trouble with the moderators/PE.

Can you imagine what it would be like if we were all stuck together with him in a lifeboat? The temptation to push him overboard!

He obviously is more interested in messing with us than learning anything new about loudspeakers, acoustics etc.
After all he has been building for "25" years, you'd think by now he would be teaching us something new instead of asking such dumb questions.


I have a good picture of me (http://cdn.okcimg.com/php/load_okc_image.php/images/16/150x150/558x800/128x266/489x626/0/4008263184522571842.jpeg)that i would like to show up if you googled me. it'll explain it all.

Now as for every thing else going on in this crazy thread.

if you paint them "banana" they'll smell yellow.

A good faith conversation? from what i have been reading, it's rather obvious that all the "thread crapping" seems to be flowing in good faith from your busy little fingers.

every post you seem to make, you have to argue with someone about one thing or another. childish name calling and all in all acting like someone who throws a tantrum when they don't get their own way. the MATURE thing to do would have been to walk away from this post long ago. But you keep coming back for more and more. I'd have to guess you're thriving on this, giving you some sort of satisfaction trying to prove all us immature children wrong.

and so what if you've been building speakers for that long, unless you can provide proof of comment it's just words. I'm a chef and I have seen people who have been chefs for 30 years that i wouldn't trust to make me toast. just because you've been doing it for that many years means you're any good at it.

As for the other "children" here. I have spent many hours talking to some of them on here, and many more hours talking to them in real life. I'll take their judgment and opinion on anything audio related in a heart beat. and not from someone who joins a forum and with in a VERY short time of posting starts trashing every one and their skills in this field.

Rene

[Æ]

Later today, I'm going to go fry ants with a magnifying glass!!!

I sure could have used you when all those ants made off with my cupcakes!

[Æ]

I know!!! It should be at least a 4 star. There's TONS of useful information, and a good 30 minutes of hilarity to go along.

Vote!!!!

I vote the moderators just shut it down, because there has already been too much unnecessary name calling and such.

[dthomas]

Apparently the humor lesson wasn't learned very well, because what you're doing in this thread is not funny. It's rude and disruptive and hinders anyone from discussing horizontally arrayed speakers. Your Dad must be proud. Go to the dictionary and look up the word "courtesy" and see if you can't teach yourself that principle before it's too late.

Oh he is very funny, I think he got the lesson just fine from dear ole Dad.... but I am not sure he is as funny as you. Maybe you should start a new post and ask your questions more concisely. Seems that you are the only one who understands what you are after. Focus on a few questions at first you then as you learn a bit ask more questions.

It is hard to figure out if you just don't like the answers you are getting or simply don't understand the questions you are asking. Lots of good advice has been given.

At this rate we will have to start a pool on how long it takes you to get yourself banned? So unless that is your goal you might want to just take a deep breath and reread your posts and start fresh. It is a pretty forgiving group here if you are sincere. If you are not they will get weary of you. Constructive arguments are good just not sure what you are trying to gain from any of this. I got a feeling the admins are going to grow weary of you before much longer anyway. So unless you are just trolling for arguments you may want to rethink your tactics.

[Andy_G]

You've never even heard a pair of Bose speakers, have you?

Let me guess, you have, and you thought they were BEEEutiful !!! :eek: :eek:

[Mark65]

I wonder, does Flinthrop live in Florida, by any chance?:cool:

Now, with that said, I wonder if since the issue of diffuse imaging stems from the differing distances from the drivers at higher xpts, the box could be constructed such that the difference is ameliorated, an angled baffle (sideways of course), perhaps? Then you could toe them in (or out) to line up the image to your taste...

Or, could it be dealt with in the crossover, a la time alignment phase tracking (if that makes any sense)?

Just wondering....


Mark

[Andy_G]

I for one welcome you. We all needed a good laugh.

Now, how about some pictures of all those wonderful speakers you've built?

Sure beats Seinfeld !!! :D :D


I can't see that happening somehow. :rolleyes:

[Æ]

Hanging chads?

The problem with identical horizontally mounted (side by side) drivers is that unless you are exactly directly in front of them, equal distant from them you'll hear one slightly before you hear the other. At long wavelengths it isn't very significant, hence the need for a lower crossover frequency. Still, the ear picks up directional cues by arrival times or intensity (depending on the frequency) so stereo imaging will usually suffer. But in the case of a center channel it probably doesn't matter. And if you don't care about imaging or like really diffuse sound, buy (or make) a pair of BOSE 901. Ha! :)


I wonder, does Flinthrop live in Florida, by any chance?:cool:

Now, with that said, I wonder if since the issue of diffuse imaging stems from the differing distances from the drivers at higher xpts, the box could be constructed such that the difference is ameliorated, an angled baffle (sideways of course), perhaps? Then you could toe them in (or out) to line up the image to your taste...

Or, could it be dealt with in the crossover, a la time alignment phase tracking (if that makes any sense)?

Just wondering....


Mark

[Æ]

Sure beats Seinfeld !!! :D :D


I can't see that happening somehow. :rolleyes:

Hey, I like Seinfeld. :p

[Andy_G]

Hanging chads?

The problem with identical horizontally mounted (side by side) drivers is that unless you are exactly directly in front of them, equal distant from them you'll hear one slightly before you hear the other. At long wavelengths it isn't very significant, hence the need for a lower crossover frequency. Still, the ear picks up directional cues by arrival times or intensity (depending on the frequency) so stereo imaging will usually suffer. But in the case of a center channel it probably doesn't matter. And if you don't care about imaging or like really diffuse sound, buy (or make) a pair of BOSE 901. Ha! :)

If you look at the Legacy Whisper, you can almost determine the x-o points that probably wouldn't determentally affect the imaging.
At a rough guess, so long as those side by side low mid drivers didn't have much output above 400, then all the imaging cues would come from the small mid and top end..
What puzzles me is HORIZONTALLY mounted ribbon (in the pic I was just looking at anyway). :rolleyes:

These things are obviously designed to beam.

but so long as they don't have massive swings in the dispersion, and so long as you are in the narrow sweet spot, maybe, perhaps, the imaging wouldn't be too badly compromised. I suspect you would need quite a deal of toe-in , almost pointing straight at the listening position.

But those Bose 901, the early ones sounded ok, but hardly a speaker that imaged well.. more a sort of mixmaster :eek:..
as time progressed, from the ones I have heard, things got gradually worse and worse.

The Bosendorfer, (which I was actually refering to) got good write-ups in several mags, but the pair I heard , while they sounded "great" on big piano and operatic male vocal, attempt to play "lighter" sounds through them , and they really did not work well at all.

[rene]

Well alright, anther thread crapper! Welcome, you'll fit right in!

I explained this in anther post, but like I said there seems to be some very slow witted people amongst us, so perhaps it bears repeating: If you make a post with a negative reference to me in it, like yours did, then I'm going to respond to that post and tell my side of the story. OK? Are you with me so far? Let me set up a hypothetical for you: If you hadn't of chimed in with your thread crapping post, then right now I wouldn't be typing this response, and the shrillness would die down and everybody would be happy.:) Does that make sense? Are you still with me?
So to review - you don't say anything negative about me, and I then won't say anything negative about you, and then we can get back to discussing horizontally arrayed speakers. Get it? If not, then PM me and I'll put it in even simpler terms for ya. ;)


Could you please type slower and use smaller words, I kind of got lost and confused with your first response.
maybe using some pictures and diagrams too will help.

[rene]

I would have taken a new picture, but i had just got in from work and was being one with the couch at the time.

Do i even NEED to give you my answer on the life boat topic? ohh and are these shark infested waters? :D

any ways, off to work i go! you know.. where the GROWN-UPS go.

Rene



Hey, I'd like a couple of pieces of toast to go, with some sliced bananas on top.

Cool picture by the way. (I was thinking something along the very same lines) I hope it doesn't get you into trouble with the moderators/PE.

Can you imagine what it would be like if we were all stuck together with him in a lifeboat? The temptation to push him overboard!

He obviously is more interested in messing with us than learning anything new about loudspeakers, acoustics etc.
After all he has been building for "25" years, you'd think by now he would be teaching us something new instead of asking such dumb questions.

[time]

You're right, I missed that. I thought I could slip a question or two about MMT's into the thread, but I didn't realize that asking questions in order to educate one's self is looked down on. My bad, and I'll bow out.

You seemed like a good guy at first... it disappointing to find out that you're a follower and not a leader. :rolleyes: Good luck with your speakers.

Oh, now you catch on that your the one that is a "thread crapper".

Then you go on to blame it on the OP. Nice.

"I thought I could slip a question or two." That is the definition of hijacking a thread.

Duh.

And you comment on the slow wit of others? No wonder you want listening impressions and not technical data.

When I was a kid and wrecked my car, I took my car stereo into my room, hooked to a battery. I cut baffle cutouts into cardboard boxes for the 6X9 coax's. Later I cut a port hole in them with a steak knife. I think this may give me the same 25 years of speaker building experience that you boast. Sorry, I didn't take pictures. Did you?

[Wolf]

While these banana-painted speakers ('Mn-14') below don't have anything to do with side-by-side arrangments, they are somewhat on-topic for some of the previous posts in this thread:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/wolf_teeth_speaker/Mn-14/Sunset.jpg

Now, on OP topic-
The spacing as you place them closer and xover lower will indeed lessen the effects as you move from the center position. However, differing path-lengths make it impossible for you to shift without difference becoming the sound.

I have heard several DIY MTM's or multi-driver designs on their sides, and a few have different aspects that make them acceptable, or not acceptable.

Ed Froste's Storms in the Showcase do have a limited horizontal dispersion, but it's not as bad being that they are larger in width and capable of throwing an initially larger soundfield than a smaller one might. That said- you get better sound sitting square in the middle with them facing you or toed in.

I also heard a BESL 2.5-way MTM with differing woofers (or same woofers depending on the design) that roll off the second driver lower in frequency to avoid the lobing issues that are inherent in the sideways positions. You could get around the lobing by staggering or cascading another lowpass rolloff.

The smaller the drivers, and the closer you get the spacing, you got more broad horizontal dispersions. I built a 3" MTM (Sir Audinums) and tried it both ways. Vertical was obviously better, but the small horizontal footprint wasn't bad either.

When you use larger woofers, the results get worse as you go with a wider spacing. Keep the xover lower.
Later,
Wolf

[Jeff B.]

Oh, now you catch on that your the one that is a "thread crapper".

Then you go on to blame it on the OP. Nice.

"I thought I could slip a question or two." That is the definition of hijacking a thread.

Duh.

And you comment on the slow wit of others? No wonder you want listening impressions and not technical data.

When I was a kid and wrecked my car, I took my car stereo into my room, hooked to a battery. I cut baffle cutouts into cardboard boxes for the 6X9 coax's. Later I cut a port hole in them with a steak knife. I think this may give me the same 25 years of speaker building experience that you boast. Sorry, I didn't take pictures. Did you?

There's never really an issue with someone asking related questions, or even with a thread moving in a new direction with a legitimate discussion. There is a problem, however, with an over-abundance of argumentative and disrespectful replies. That's when a thread gets high-jacked in a bad way.

[johnastockman]

The entertainment just keeps on coming!!!

:D

Man, very entertaining! Bananas and then the chicken/egg thing. C'mon, an egg doesn't lay a chicken, but calling Jeff childish was the best laugh. My XO skills are lacking...does that mean I'm a follower too? I've never gotten bad advice in my over 9 years here. But that's because I don't know everything and listen to those that have more experience than I, and can recognize some toungue-in-cheek. Now you want to talk motorcycles, or find out how fast a crippled guy can ride a motorcycle around a track faster than you, I'm your man. Speakers, I like to defer to those that have proven themselves like some of the ones that are being denegrated in this thread. Respect is earned through actions, not just automatically given because of background, job, religion, gender..or the amount of speakers you've built.

John A.

[Æ]

Do you notice all of a sudden that he is nowhere to be found?
It seems that he knew what he was doing all along, deliberately and systematically provoking several of us. Even going as far as calling some of us "liars."

[Jeff B.]

Man, very entertaining! Bananas and then the chicken/egg thing. C'mon, an egg doesn't lay a chicken, but calling Jeff childish was the best laugh. My XO skills are lacking...does that mean I'm a follower too? I've never gotten bad advice in my over 9 years here. But that's because I don't know everything and listen to those that have more experience than I, and can recognize some toungue-in-cheek. Now you want to talk motorcycles, or find out how fast a crippled guy can ride a motorcycle around a track faster than you, I'm your man. Speakers, I like to defer to those that have proven themselves like some of the ones that are being denegrated in this thread. Respect is earned through actions, not just automatically given because of background, job, religion, gender..or the amount of speakers you've built.

John A.


Well, I did join in on the banana thing.... :D

Wolf, on the other hand, actually made banana colored speakers. He one-upped us all.

Then there's the Fostex banana cones, but I digress.......

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Well, I did join in on the banana thing.... :D

Wolf, on the other hand, actually made banana colored speakers. He one-upped us all.

Then there's the Fostex banana cones, but I digress.......

Throws quite an image don't it?

http://www.kensicecreamparlor.com/images/banana_split.jpg

[E Biddy]

I am very proud of starting this thread:p:D:rolleyes:

[Mark65]

I am very proud of starting this thread:p:D:rolleyes:

As you should be! Well done!:cool:


Mark

[Æ]

Darn, that looks yummy. I want one, NOW!


Throws quite an image don't it?

http://www.kensicecreamparlor.com/images/banana_split.jpg

[Mark65]

Hanging chads?




No, it's just that another argumentative know-it-all came from Florida. I won't mention any names but his initials were AlphaJuliet...:cool:


Mark

[Pete Schumacher ®]

No, it's just that another argumentative know-it-all came from Florida. I won't mention any names but his initials were AlphaJuliet...:cool:


Mark

That was definitely NOT AJ . . .

[Andy_G]

That was definitely NOT AJ . . .

Yeah, no way.. AJ, despite his personality, imo was obviously very knowledgeable. Had a lot to offer, but chose not to :confused:

This guy.. verdict out, not enough info. But I suspect not.

[Mark65]

That was definitely NOT AJ . . .


Yeah, no way.. AJ, despite his personality, imo was obviously very knowledgeable. Had a lot to offer, but chose not to :confused:

This guy.. verdict out, not enough info. But I suspect not.

Well, that's not exactly what I meant, either. I was just wondering if it was something in the water, or something...;)

Guess it wasn't as funny as I thought it was....:rolleyes:


Mark

[Andy_G]

Guess it wasn't as funny as I thought it was....:rolleyes:

Mark

I get that problem a lot :D :D :D

[dthomas]

I actually was starting to wonder if it was Vas. But he did not go off the deep end quite enough unless it is Vas on meds. :eek:

[killa]

Man, very entertaining! Bananas and then the chicken/egg thing. C'mon, an egg doesn't lay a chicken, but calling Jeff childish was the best laugh. My XO skills are lacking...does that mean I'm a follower too? I've never gotten bad advice in my over 9 years here. But that's because I don't know everything and listen to those that have more experience than I, and can recognize some toungue-in-cheek. Now you want to talk motorcycles, or find out how fast a crippled guy can ride a motorcycle around a track faster than you, I'm your man. Speakers, I like to defer to those that have proven themselves like some of the ones that are being denegrated in this thread. Respect is earned through actions, not just automatically given because of background, job, religion, gender..or the amount of speakers you've built.

John A.

I know all about how fast you old guys can be. I race vintage mx and there are guys in their 50s that are very fast. A few of them are old pros.

[davepellegrene]

I know all about how fast you old guys can be. I race vintage mx and there are guys in their 50s that are very fast. A few of them are old pros.

50s is old! :eek:

[killa]

50s is old! :eek:

To me yes:p These guys jump some pretty good sized jumps too.

[johnastockman]

I know all about how fast you old guys can be. I race vintage mx and there are guys in their 50s that are very fast. A few of them are old pros.


I was informed that once I reached 50 (52 now), I was the "old" guy. I'm a huge enthusiast of AHRMA and the vintage MX/Off-road stuff. Here in the NW, we have an event named Dino Daze for the MX and off-road/cross country competition. I live near Chehalis, Wa. and the vintage MX guys race at "The Farm" in Chehalis. A lot of the old two-strokes get to hit the track. I know one guy in his mid 70's that can roost better than most. He has an old CZ. Me with the disability, MX is more than I can do physically, so road-racing is my forte'. But I go to all the vintage events, off-road and on. Personally, I have a cafe'd Yamaha SR500 that I race with. Being the only handicapped racer, I get a lot of ribbing, but it's all in good fun...and a handicapped motorcyclist is such a huge oxymoron, I enjoy having fun with that.

John A.

[killa]

I was informed that once I reached 50 (52 now), I was the "old" guy. I'm a huge enthusiast of AHRMA and the vintage MX/Off-road stuff. Here in the NW, we have an event named Dino Daze for the MX and off-road/cross country competition. I live near Chehalis, Wa. and the vintage MX guys race at "The Farm" in Chehalis. A lot of the old two-strokes get to hit the track. I know one guy in his mid 70's that can roost better than most. He has an old CZ. Me with the disability, MX is more than I can do physically, so road-racing is my forte'. But I go to all the vintage events, off-road and on. Personally, I have a cafe'd Yamaha SR500 that I race with. Being the only handicapped racer, I get a lot of ribbing, but it's all in good fun...and a handicapped motorcyclist is such a huge oxymoron, I enjoy having fun with that.

John A.

Yeah i like racing vintage it's a lot more laid back and fun than modern. I only have two bikes (honda xr650r supermoto:D and a yamaha yz400f) but would love to build a cafe bike.

[isaeagle4031]

I've actually built something like this awhile back. Used dual 8" woofers and a 5.25" component set from a car system. Used a simple sub xover for the bottom (150Hz) imaging worked well and was not a problem. Designed 4 location (garage, near ceiling) and outdoor use. They replaced a set of WMT layed on their side that sounded horrible with terrible imaging. Could not be closer than 15' or so without having on or the other just disapper

[djg]

Always wanted an SR500 or better yet, an SRX 6. Settled on a Honda FT500 which I fixed up and rode for many years.

[johnastockman]

Yeah i like racing vintage it's a lot more laid back and fun than modern. I only have two bikes (honda xr650r supermoto:D and a yamaha yz400f) but would love to build a cafe bike.

I rescued a 70-something Suzuki TS100 2-stroke, rebuilt the poor thing and use it for trail riding. I love watching the old 500 two-stroke singles...what a sound, especially the Maico 500. I found the Yammie SR500 on Cycle Trader for only $500...excellent shape, a little over 3000 miles. The cafe' related parts, handlebars, rear-sets, suspension upgrades, etc. were pretty reasonable. I've got a little over $1500 into her, handles like she's on rails. Any old single or twin from the 70's through the late 80's is a great platform for a club racing bike. They even have a specific class for the Honda CB160's. This is really OT, so if you'd like to chat further, drop me an e-mail. Love to see some pics of your bikes.

John A.