Looking to build a killer PA, for profit. Advice?

[Superhands]

Hey guys. I'm looking to get my DIY pro audio hobby business back up off the ground, and I'm looking to draw up some designs for some killer, yet affordable, PA mains. The main design goals here are to cover the entire spectrum in a single cabinet with a smooth, relatively flat response. It's important that the system produces big bass while compensating for the abysmal off-axis response of the traditional 15+1 configuration, so I'm thinking a 3-way is the only way. I'm asking for suggestions on some of the drivers that I should consider using to achieve these goals.

I already have a woofer picked out, and I'm pretty well stuck on it. The super-beefy 15" Die-cast woofer from MCM. I've used this driver before in a bass cab for a 5-string player... my god, so much low-end bite! It'd be perfectly suitable to monitor drums and bass guitar. Plus the sensitivity is great and the price is right. I have a feeling that the 400w RMS rating is a bit conservative considering the 4" voice coil, but I'd like your opinions on that.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-55-1880-/55-1880

I'll happily listen to other ideas for the woofer, but I've not been able to find one that competes for the price, especially with that 28hz resonance!

Now, the midrange and tweeter are up in the air. The Selenium DH200E-E looks promising, good power handling and the reviews attest to its smooth nature, which is a gem in a world of super-harsh PA horn drivers. (*cough* Pyle)

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-225&vReviewShow=1

As for the midrange, I'm not quite so sure. The Dayton PA165-8 6" PA Driver looked good, though I have concerns about the sensitivity being a bit low. I'm open to 8" midrange drivers as well (selenium?), keeping in mind that keeping costs down is important. Open-backs are fine, I'm ok with building sub-enclosures.
I am curious, however, as to exactly how crucial the sensitivity is for the mid in this application, seeing how its purpose here is more to smooth the transition from the woofer to the tweeter and improve off-axis response. I may be quite wrong about this whole concept, feel free to correct me.

Crossovers will be custom made, making sure to stay well away from electrolytic caps. Can anyone attest to the accuracy of the crossover calculators on the12volt.com? They offer a really helpful set of tools for easy crossover design, which would be very nice to have at my disposal.

The construction of the cabs themselves will be 3/4" birch 7-ply, internally braced and dampened with fiberglass. Thinking of doubling up on the baffle with a second layer of mdf.

I'm gunning here for the $500/cab range with these, which may or may not be reasonable. It seems like on paper I stand a chance against the mid-range Peaveys and the cheap JBLs in this range in terms of low bass output, sensitivity, and the potential for this to end up being a very smooth sounding system. They have me beat on max spl by 3db or so, but if I can really keep the response smooth and pleasant with good off-axis response, along with the superior bass output from that MCM woofer, I feel like I can be competitive. One of the main tenants of mine over theirs is that, to grab that bottom octave, they'll probably need a separate sub cab, whereas mine won't for all but the most demanding mid-sized gigs.

As an final note, I am a novice. I have not read the cookbook, and am aware that I probably lack some fundamental understanding about how this all works, so many of my claims are based on guesswork and about a year's experience. This is all a learning process, so if I have made large, unforgivable errors in this post, I apologize, and am happy to learn more.

So, thoughts? Suggestions? Advice? Please let me know what you think, and thank you for reading.

[billfitzmaurice]

As an final note, I am a novice. I have not read the cookbook, and am aware that I probably lack some fundamental understanding about how this all worksThis is absolutely a case where, if you want to make a small fortune, start off with a large fortune. :mad:
If you're going to be successful the first step is to know what you're doing. Since you admittedly don't you won't. You have to offer something that all the established brands don't. That starts with a certain level of expertise.

[badman]

This is absolutely a case where, if you want to make a small fortune, start off with a large fortune. :mad:
If you're going to be successful the first step is to know what you're doing. Since you admittedly don't you won't. You have to offer something that all the established brands don't. That starts with a certain level of expertise.

Harsh but true. Unless you're an engineer and have serious manufacturing chops and startup capital beside, you're not going to get a business off the ground. You CAN however do custom, one-off work- once you're very experienced, and have a name for yourself. It's still tough entry but not as capital intensive- you'll still need to get your design, build, and business chops together as a 1-man.

But you'll not likely dethrone QSC/JBL/etc without a LOT of juice.

[Paul O]

Well... I was all interested until I got to the second line of your post...

"The main design goals here are to cover the entire spectrum in a single cabinet.."

Sorry but that's about the worst design goal possible for a PA system. The reason is simple the box would be massive.. as in it would take a crane to move it. I think you need to better define your goals here because everybody has a different idea of what qualifies as a "PA system", for some it would look like this first photo while others need the second below. In both cases you'll notice these are not all-in-one boxes, they could both be considered to be killer PA systems in their own right producing lots of output with minimal input, but even the small rig is built with seperate components for each part of the spectrum because otherwise the system wouldn't be at all portable. That's just physics, it takes a lot more speaker to produce big sound in large venues and outdoors.

[Superhands]

Yikes. It seems that I may have been a little less than clear about the intended place for this product, which was more or less the gigging bar-band crowd, who I feel aren't terribly well catered for. The one cabinet concept was an effort to keep things simple, and of course there are compromises, but I certainly wasn't looking to take on QSC and high-end JBL and dozens of massive folded horn cabs with a single 15" bass reflex design. That's just silly.

As for the cabinet needing to be massive, the MCM woofer models flat down to about 30hz or so in a ~4 cubic foot vented cabinet (I can re-model these numbers and post them if you like, it's been awhile since I did last), and my personal experience with this woofer confirms this. Compared to the quasi-3-way 2x15 cabs or a stack with an 18" subwoofer cab, it'd actually be quite a lot more manageable for a small gigging band.

I want to make it clear that this is a hobby business, and I've only just turned 18. If I make ~$100 profit per cabinet if they sell I'll be happy as a clam, because I actually very much enjoy building cabinets and am always looking for more excuses to do it. The idea is that I can spend 2-3 hours a night for a week on a pair of cabinets when I would otherwise have wasted that time playing video games or huffing glue, (or both!), and then get a little cash in return. This concept has worked very well for me in building bass and guitar cabinets, so I wanted to model out this proof of concept to see if I could make a relatively high quality PA speaker.

Now, you might say, why not just get a part time job? Well, if I could make $7 an hour either building cabinets while rocking out to Rush in my garage, or flipping burgers or riding a cash register, I'd rather build cabinets. Call me unconventional.

I can understand that there was lack of clarity on the design goal, and I can understand that, barring the expertise of years of research, education, and experience, coupled with huge investment, I will never take on the likes of QSC, etc. But that's not at all what I'm trying to do. What I've tried to do here is present an alternative, for the small band, to comparably priced PA cabinets which are not designed to cover the entire spectrum, and typically lack a bit in the bass department. I fully understand that a traditional stack with a 1x12+1 or 1x15+1 on top and an 18" sub on the bottom will be superior to my product, but that configuration is often less practical, much more expensive, etc.

The reason I've come here is for advice on midrange and tweeter selection, crossover configurations, because I don't have a lot of experience here. I recognize that the expertise of people with decades of experience will make my product better. I am quite confident that, now that I have clarified the purpose of the system, its merits are more pronounced. It may turn out that it requires more investment than I thought to achieve the design goals, in which case I may have to abandon the concept entirely, but that's why I need advice, to help me determine whether or not it's worth trying out.

Keep in mind, I'm not looking to patent this design and have it mass-produced in China. There's every reason to think that it'll be a one-off. But if I get a lot of attention and interest in the first pair, I just might make more!

Thank you.

[spasticteapot]

The one cabinet concept was an effort to keep things simple, and of course there are compromises, but I certainly wasn't looking to take on QSC and high-end JBL and dozens of massive folded horn cabs with a single 15" bass reflex design. That's just silly.

Bill Fitzmaurice has several designs pretty much as you described. They usually have a fairly long folded horn for the woofer, and a short front-loaded horn for the mid and tweeter.

Most PA systems just use inexpensive off-the-shelf 2-ways. They have no bass, but the efficiency is high and most people don't really care anyways. DJs generally just supplement this with subwoofers.



I want to make it clear that this is a hobby business, and I've only just turned 18. If I make ~$100 profit per cabinet if they sell I'll be happy as a clam, because I actually very much enjoy building cabinets and am always looking for more excuses to do it.

The problem here is that you've just opened an enormous can of worms. I've been in exactly your situation, and I can tell you that it's an absolute nightmare.

Your biggest problem is product support. Supporting a guitar cabinet is pretty simple - there's no internal circuitry, the driver is easily replaced with identical or similar off-the-shelf parts. So long as the wooden bits don't actually shatter, it's not your problem.

A PA system is an elephant of a different color. There's lots of things to go wrong, and in lots of different ways. Unless you choose not to offer any form of warranty, you'll be spending huge amounts of time and money just keeping everything running.

Your biggest problem, however, may be that you're perceived as a kid. Remember, people are greedy, stupid, and petty: If they feel they can cheat you, they'll do it. Most of the reasons big businesses are successful is quantities of scale, but a large part of it is that no one really wants to take QSC or Yamaha to court unless they're very, very sure they can win.





I can understand that there was lack of clarity on the design goal, and I can understand that, barring the expertise of years of research, education, and experience, coupled with huge investment, I will never take on the likes of QSC, etc.

I've been putzing around with speakers for years, and I'm still not very good at speaker design.

Speaker design is not something that you can learn overnight. In theory, designing an ideal speaker isn't that hard - just put the drivers in place, cross them over at an ideal point, and go home.

However, an ideal speaker requires an infinite amount of money, an infinite amount of power, and an infinitely large box. Nobody designs ideal speakers.

Dealing in a world of compromises is much more difficult. Bill Fitzmaurice does not design the world's best speakers - not even close. However, what he does do is design the best speakers for a given set of size, frequency response, output, and - above all else - price requirement. And that he does very, very well.

I'd go one of two ways: Either license a Bill Fitzmaurice design (I hear he likes being paid just as much as everyone else) or modify a popular DIY design to your purposes. The weak nature of engineering copyright combined with the huge amount of documented DIY projects means that you can probably get 80% of the way to a completed design just by surfing DIYaudio. (Do not copy a Bill Fitzmaurice design. They're a nice source of ideas, though.)




Keep in mind, I'm not looking to patent this design and have it mass-produced in China. There's every reason to think that it'll be a one-off. But if I get a lot of attention and interest in the first pair, I just might make more!


Making the prototypes and getting interest is the easy part. It's the "not going bankrupt after selling ten" part that always killed me.

I'm 20, and in much the same situation you are. However, I'm approaching it from a rather different direction - instead of trying to make a new product, I'm helping an (extremely experienced) fabricator/machinist I know look at ways to make old products much more cheaply.

I might also be able to help you cut down the time required to make a guitar cabinet in half with a minimal increase in cost through the wonders of giant industrial lasers. Send me a PM, and we'll talk. :D

[Superhands]

Your biggest problem is product support. Supporting a guitar cabinet is pretty simple - there's no internal circuitry, the driver is easily replaced with identical or similar off-the-shelf parts. So long as the wooden bits don't actually shatter, it's not your problem.

In the greatest possible way, you have hit the nail on the head, sir. Bass and guitar cabinets are pretty easy to maintain, but the PA has many more components that could go wrong, even if I design everything correctly. A scary thought to think I might be running to order replacement mids, tweets, and crossovers for customers who let their amps clip and decided to blame me.


Most PA systems just use inexpensive off-the-shelf 2-ways. They have no bass, but the efficiency is high and most people don't really care anyways. DJs generally just supplement this with subwoofers.

That's precisely what I wanted to offer an alternative to with my configuration. However, you're completely right in that they probably don't care anyway, and even if I can make a cabinet that is the perfect compromise, there's a good chance no one will buy it.

I've recently thought of another huge check on my idea: the used market. People are generally all for custom bass and guitar cabinets, probably because it's all a bit romantic, seeing that the speakers that shape their unique tone were lovingly assembled by hand with care. It's got character, it's unique, one-of-a-kind for them, which is a great selling point on a bass or guitar cab.

The PA, however, is boring by comparison. It's the thing that makes the mic and drums loud. Whether or not its custom, or even new, is kind of irrelevant, just so long as it works. I can offer better alternatives to new PA cabs at comparable prices all day long, but when the used PA market flourishes like it does around here, the market for my product has dried up as I am no longer cost-competitive.

This is disheartening. I think I'll just stick with bass and guitar cabs. The profit margins are better, there's less risk, and the products have more appeal and a broader market.

Thanks spasticteapot for what was a very helpful reply. I'll think about those lasers, though it might be good to start with a router circle jig and a carbide cutting bit first.

[badman]

This is disheartening. I think I'll just stick with bass and guitar cabs. The profit margins are better, there's less risk, and the products have more appeal and a broader market.


Yeps, that's where I was headed. There ARE good gigging speakers, stuff like JBL Eon would be tough to undercut.

Good luck in your venture, people like me and Bill are jaded 'cause we've seen it all 101 times, it's not trivial to break into a low-margin market with existing, highly capable competition.`

[killersoundz]

Lol, Dude, take my advice give your dream a break and go get a full time job.

You're way out of your league and it will end in your ruined credit score and working too hard for too little money, trust me I'm trying to recover from that experience myself.

You're looking at banking $100 a cab? lol. Ok go head, give that shot and see how that works out for you. If you're lucky that will make you minimum wage.

"rocking out in your garage building cabs for $7 an hour" might sound better than working for someone else, but it's not. The stress will eat your soul, and if you're lucky enough to get customers, dealing with them will make you wonder why you would ever do this for less than $50 an hour. If you're lucky enough to get business, you'll be working 5 times harder than you would be being employed, and it is not worth it. Not only that but honestly we don't need another person building crappy products and under cutting business that are selling quality ones.

My guideline is if you're going into business and you're working your *** off and can't pull in at least $30 an hour consistently, give it up, the workload and stress isn't worth it.

If you're building speaker cabs for profit, you need a large capital to make a production run and have them finished and packaged, in storage, ready to ship. I wouldn't really waste my time making less than 100 speakers ready to ship, maybe half that if you need to start. Do not for one second think you can make a product that should be mass produced, made to order for customers, because you will be making far less profit due to more labor and higher material cost. Also quality inconsistencies.

Now if you want to make money, you need to partner with someone that has experience in this business and knows what they are doing. If you have money to invest, I have the designs, the manufacturing and wholesale accounts. Talk to me. ;)

[killersoundz]

And by the way, people that are designing products to sell for profit don't usually discuss them openly on online forums. :) Says a few things, first that you aren't confident in the design or the product (or don't know what you're doing, also says that you know you don't have anything new and innovative to offer because you're not afraid of anyone 'stealing' your design. I come up with a lot of speaker designs but I don't discuss them with anyone, I just build them and see if they are worthy. A lot of the time they're just ok, and I'd only bother putting something into production that really makes a lot of sense.

[spasticteapot]

Lol, Dude, take my advice give your dream a break and go get a full time job.


There is one major exception to this rule: College students.

I attend a major university. Between some health problems and the college workload, I can't really deal with a proper job. At some point, one has to make a choice between attending school and showing up for work - and I've made my choice already.

Making money from your hobbies might not be the best way to earn money, but it's cathartic and beats going to the bar.




Thanks spasticteapot for what was a very helpful reply. I'll think about those lasers, though it might be good to start with a router circle jig and a carbide cutting bit first.

Laser cutting isn't cheap. However, in large quantities, it can do wonders for your profit margin.

A laser cut guitar cabinet will add at least $20 to $30 to the cost of a cabinet, but it has some significant advantages. Aside from potentially lower waste of materials (important for expensive birch ply), it offers much higher precision than a handmade cabinet. By combining laser-cut bracing and dovetailed edges, the end result can be extremely durable.

However, the biggest advantage by a mile is the speed of construction. All you need to do is slot the pieces together, add some glue, and round over the edges a bit. If you're going in for a lot of bracing, this can cut down your construction time by 80%.

[killersoundz]

Laser cutting isn't cheap. However, in large quantities, it can do wonders for your profit margin.

A laser cut guitar cabinet will add at least $20 to $30 to the cost of a cabinet, but it has some significant advantages. Aside from potentially lower waste of materials (important for expensive birch ply), it offers much higher precision than a handmade cabinet. By combining laser-cut bracing and dovetailed edges, the end result can be extremely durable.

However, the biggest advantage by a mile is the speed of construction. All you need to do is slot the pieces together, add some glue, and round over the edges a bit. If you're going in for a lot of bracing, this can cut down your construction time by 80%.

'Laser cutting' is not used by any speaker cabinet manufactures that I know of. CNC routers are. The ease and accuracy is nice, but the investment of a CNC router table only really makes sense if you can buy quite a few of them for high volume production, or if you build one yourself (which brings the price for a 3 axis 4x8 table to under 5k). However even using a single 4x8 CNC router table to cut out all the panels for speaker boxes is going to be much slower than table saws, handheld routers and a couple workers. The only thing a CNC router is good for in my eyes is the fancy cuts.

I also don't know how you think CNC cutting a box saves material. The kerf of a CNC router is 1/4", more than double of a saw blade. :)

And if you really did mean laser cutting, well I hope you're ready with sandpaper in hand to sand away all the burnt edges, otherwise you've got nothing for the glue to cling to.

[Superhands]

Killersoundz, you clearly don't understand where I'm coming from, and this torrent of criticism is uncalled for. I understand that you've got experience, because you've been there. Been there deep. But I'm not ever going to go there. I'm just barely dipping my toes in the speaker building pool, and that's fine for me. For some reason, people here have gotten it in their heads that I'm looking to take on the world, JBL, QSC, etc. I'm NOT. I've made this abundantly clear that this is a hobby business. I build a cab, sell a cab, stop if I want to. No big risk, no hordes of furious and demanding customers, loans, ruined credit, and as little obligation to continue as I make for myself. I'm not trying to make it big with this at all. If I don't make even minimum wage, that's fine, because I probably had a good time doing it.


I attend a major university. Between some health problems and the college workload, I can't really deal with a proper job. At some point, one has to make a choice between attending school and showing up for work - and I've made my choice already.


Making money from your hobbies might not be the best way to earn money, but it's cathartic and beats going to the bar.

You understand! Thank you. This is where I'm coming from. I attend college, currently doing PSEO out of high school in a community college, going to transfer into a university when I can to major in Psychology. I deal with health problems too, and I just can't handle the BS and stress of the McJobs that I have access to. I make $75 a week keeping up my parents house, doing all of the cleaning and maintenance. I don't pay bills, I live in the room upstairs. The building cabinets is to make some fun money, some taking my girlfriend to a nice dinner money, some buying a big TV money, some saving up for a road trip to Montana this summer money.


"rocking out in your garage building cabs for $7 an hour" might sound better than working for someone else, but it's not. The stress will eat your soul, and if you're lucky enough to get customers, dealing with them will make you wonder why you would ever do this for less than $50 an hour. If you're lucky enough to get business, you'll be working 5 times harder than you would be being employed, and it is not worth it. Not only that but honestly we don't need another person building crappy products and under cutting business that are selling quality ones.

Don't ever go into motivational speaking.

Look, I don't get where your personal vendetta against what I'm doing is coming from. I understand that you put a lot more work into making your cabinets perfect than I put into mine. You probably also charge top-dollar. Good! I've seen your cabinets on the forum, and your work is phenomenal!

That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for what I make. My cabinets aren't perfect, but they are by no means crappy. They're strong, they're durable, the finish is fine and doesn't offend, and they sound as good as the speakers I put in them. They get the job done. They might have a few rough edges, but my customers understand, because if it's anything like the bass stack I sold not too long ago, they're getting a great deal. I saved this guy a BOATLOAD of cash over comparable new name-brand cabinets. Find me a retail 2x15 bass cabinet that has 101db sensitivity, 800w real RMS, and usable response down to 25hz for reproducing the fundamental 5-string low D for ~$600 NEW (and not be Seismic Audio or Behringer), and I'll be put in my place. Sure, the cabs were carpeted instead of tolexed, they had the cheesy grills from PE rather than full front baffle grills, they had a few imperfections, but damn, they were loud, and deep, and they made the customer smile. I made enough money there to make me happy, and I had fun. Tell me, honestly, why isn't there a place for that? Does the band sound worse because the cabs don't say Hartke, Marshall, or Mark Bass on them? No. As a bassist for a gigging band, I know that all that matters at the end of the day is that it sounds good for what was paid. My cabs sound great for the price and get the job done. End of story.


And by the way, people that are designing products to sell for profit don't usually discuss them openly on online forums. Says a few things, first that you aren't confident in the design or the product (or don't know what you're doing, also says that you know you don't have anything new and innovative to offer because you're not afraid of anyone 'stealing' your design.

Well, I'm only competing with the people who post their used, beat up cabinets on the Minneapolis Craigslist. The odds that someone else in my area, doing exactly what I'm doing, would see this, then steal my half-baked, incomplete design, then do it better than me, underprice me, etc. See where I'm going with this?

So, here's what really kills me. I didn't ask for criticism about how I spend my time, how I organize my life goals, or business advice. I asked for some advice about midranges, tweeters, and crossovers, and I haven't gotten ONE WORD about it! All I've gotten was you guys, the "experts", talking down to me, and you, Killersoundz, putting me in the dirt because I don't live up to your lofty standards. The thing is, for MY price range, MY market, MY intended customer, I don't have to! This is called "Tech Talk", and we haven't discussed anything about my tech question. I just wanted some basic advice to help me make a good product. I made the mistake of assuming that I'd get something like that here.

In closing, screw this hostile, elitist forum. If this is how everyone looking to get started with speakers is treated, you'll soon see this forum empty out entirely. Not everyone with a for-profit speaker idea is seconds away from double-mortgaging their homes to finance it. Some ideas are low-risk, just for fun, or maybe a jumping-off point for something better. By shooting down every idea because you know it's not the best idea, you'll just turn off all the beginners who could've had a great experience with this very rewarding hobby. We all get that there is a best way to design, build, and finish speakers... it's very complicated, expensive, and inaccessible to almost everyone due to the time, tools and expertise it requires. My methods are nowhere near perfect, and I don't take it as seriously as some people here, but it works for me and my customers. If, because of this, I'm not welcome here, fine. I will go elsewhere.

[Taterworks]

Superhands, if you're this dedicated to pursuing your idea, then this is a good start. You've shown you can stand up to criticism and that you're crazy enough to pursue your goals even after a thorough education in the risks and economic hurdles you face.

The next thing you need to do is start taking personal responsibility for the knowledge base required to design loudspeakers. You'll never make it off the ground if you constantly have to ask a (free) web forum's members for advice or guidance (which usually rubs people the wrong way when they are being asked to support a commercial enterprise with no compensation for them), and if you simply copy a DIY design to sell for profit, that will also rub the designer the wrong way in most cases, since they invested a great deal of time, money, and sweat equity into developing the design, and you're essentially asking us for advice on how to screw that person. When you have an idea, build it and test it, and see how it performs. Today's pro audio manufacturers began from a few prototypes and expanded their production to meet demand. Begin with reading through the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook to get a basic overview of the topics you'll need to cover. Also order a copy of Joseph D'Appolito's Testing Loudspeakers, because the performance of whatever you design in the theoretical realm will need to be verified empirically before you can justify performance claims. And also be aware that this venture will probably require a ridiculous amount of startup capital. You'll need a real business plan in order to get it, so get started on developing your plan and get ready to be told 'no' many times. Do this only after you're confident of your abilities in product design, which may mean waiting a few years for your skills to catch up to your ambitions.

In the end, don't listen to the ****ters (since if some people were really all that great as designers, and had a shred of enterprising spirit, they'd be out making money doing it - either for themselves or for a company - instead of giving advice on a DIY forum), but be realistic about what you'll be able to achieve and what you'll need to invest in personal and financial capital to get a business off the ground. Meyer Sound started back in 1980, much later than EAW, JBL, or Community, but they didn't just expect to build product and have people suddenly flock to their brand. They knew when to grow, and how to get the best people who knew how to sell products to professionals. If you're not prepared to develop this knowledge yourself or hire the people who have this knowledge and pay them what they deserve, then it may be better for you to not pursue this.

[spasticteapot]

And if you really did mean laser cutting, well I hope you're ready with sandpaper in hand to sand away all the burnt edges, otherwise you've got nothing for the glue to cling to.

I'm not familiar with laser cutting, but the guy I'm working with is. Laser cutting makes sense in only a few situations - but in those situations, it works extremely well.

The use of CNC mills for speaker production is predicated on the production of large quantities. The labor required to operate a major assembly line is minimal - a few machinists and an engineer can produce thousands of flat-pack cabinets a day.

Hiring a machine shop to build things on spec is generally much less economical - a shop will often charge $80/hour or more. While a laser cutter has a variety of issues, a powerful laser - say, 500W or more - can cut MDF or birch ply astonishingly fast. Sure, you have to pay another 30% more per hour, but that doesn't matter if you can cut things in one third the time.

As for the reduced losses for CNC, the main benefit is panelization. Cutting out a hundred hexagons from MDF manually has enormous losses, but a CNC laser cutter will let you cut them out with a total loss of roughly 1%. (Hexagons tesselate, and laser cutters have a kerf of less than 1/16" for some models)

[spasticteapot]

The building cabinets is to make some fun money, some taking my girlfriend to a nice dinner money, some buying a big TV money, some saving up for a road trip to Montana this summer money.


Any chance you've considered building cabinets on spec?

PE charges about $300 for a pair of 1 cu ft. boxes. Sure, they're awfully pretty, but you still need to cut and recess holes for your drivers and cut the port to length. A pair of equivalent DIY cabinets might only net you $150, but that's still about $75 in profit, or about $7.50 an hour. (Once you budget in that you're not paying for unemployment insurance and are too poor to pay income tax, it's actually more like making $9/hour at Taco Bell.)

[badman]

In closing, screw this hostile, elitist forum. If this is how everyone looking to get started with speakers is treated, you'll soon see this forum empty out entirely. Not everyone with a for-profit speaker idea is seconds away from double-mortgaging their homes to finance it. Some ideas are low-risk, just for fun, or maybe a jumping-off point for something better. By shooting down every idea because you know it's not the best idea, you'll just turn off all the beginners who could've had a great experience with this very rewarding hobby. We all get that there is a best way to design, build, and finish speakers... it's very complicated, expensive, and inaccessible to almost everyone due to the time, tools and expertise it requires. My methods are nowhere near perfect, and I don't take it as seriously as some people here, but it works for me and my customers. If, because of this, I'm not welcome here, fine. I will go elsewhere.

Nobody said you weren't welcome here, but now, you sure won't get much help. I was politely trying to save you some heartache. What you're trying to do is a difficult road, and you haven't put in any real effort, have no clue what you're doing, but want to go pro. Your questions were so broad as to be a waste of time to answer as you haven't put forth the requisite effort to hone them to something that could be more specifically addressed.


Superhands, if you're this dedicated to pursuing your idea, then this is a good start. You've shown you can stand up to criticism and that you're crazy enough to pursue your goals even after a thorough education in the risks and economic hurdles you face.

Actually, he had a tantrum. Is that what will happen the first time he loses all profit on a project the first time a piece of wood gets damaged?



The next thing you need to do is start taking personal responsibility for the knowledge base required to design loudspeakers. You'll never make it off the ground if you constantly have to ask a (free) web forum's members for advice or guidance (which usually rubs people the wrong way when they are being asked to support a commercial enterprise with no compensation for them), and if you simply copy a DIY design to sell for profit, that will also rub the designer the wrong way in most cases, since they invested a great deal of time, money, and sweat equity into developing the design, and you're essentially asking us for advice on how to screw that person. When you have an idea, build it and test it, and see how it performs. Today's pro audio manufacturers began from a few prototypes and expanded their production to meet demand. Begin with reading through the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook to get a basic overview of the topics you'll need to cover. Also order a copy of Joseph D'Appolito's Testing Loudspeakers, because the performance of whatever you design in the theoretical realm will need to be verified empirically before you can justify performance claims. And also be aware that this venture will probably require a ridiculous amount of startup capital. You'll need a real business plan in order to get it, so get started on developing your plan and get ready to be told 'no' many times. Do this only after you're confident of your abilities in product design, which may mean waiting a few years for your skills to catch up to your ambitions.

Totally agree, and kindly stated.



In the end, don't listen to the ****ters (since if some people were really all that great as designers, and had a shred of enterprising spirit, they'd be out making money doing it - either for themselves or for a company - instead of giving advice on a DIY forum), but be realistic about what you'll be able to achieve and what you'll need to invest in personal and financial capital to get a business off the ground.

There actually was only Killersoundz being wholly harsh, and some of us give advice for free because we enjoy the discussions, learned a lot from forums, and like to give back to them. Not everybody wants to go full pro, even if they're passionate about hifi.

[diy speaker guy]

Guys, this kid isn't looking to go pro. He's talking about making one off projects and selling them as he makes them. He's not going to lose his shirt, maybe a few hundred bucks at worst. He's planning on selling them on the (unused) used market so there will be no expectation of warranty. I wouldn't even call this a commercial endeavor, he's still well in hobby territory.

He's already admitted that multi way PA is probably not a good idea and he should stick to guitar speakers and I'd suggest subwoofers too. They are very easy and it is actually possible to make a few bucks. Those types of products don't necessarily have to have A+ looks to sell well either so it's a good market for a diy hobbyist.

As far as specific advice:
Stick to guitar, bass guitar, subwoofer single driver style cabs, at least until you get some more experience.
Use light material, 1/2 or 3/4 inch plywood, don't double up the baffle, especially not with MDF.
MAKE SURE the customer knows there is no warrany besides the factory warranty on the parts, and no warranty from you for labor.

The most crucial part of the speaker selling business is marketing, sadly. If you can make people think your products are cool the demand will be overwhelming even if the product sucks. Just ask Bose.

Superhands (are you still listening?) you need to do a lot more research and learning but if this is what you really want to do it's possible. But Taco Bell probably pays better, at least until you establish a name for yourself.

[killersoundz]

I don't know why you had to get personally offended at my comments. I may have been being harsh but I was being honest. I'd like to see your work, if you do anything half decently my opinion may change but you need to realize customers are extremely critical. They are mostly critical on the finish quality. I've had reviews of my products people are like "the cab appears to be built really well, the corners are on straight." Just tells you they don't know what the hell a well built cab is, but they sure pay attention to the details. If you're doing carpet covering or tolex, all the seams need to be practically invisible or you will get ripped apart. And it's understandable, people don't want to pay money for something that doesn't look to be as well built as a commercially available product. I started off doing carpet coverings, which is quite forgivable, I covered hundreds of cabs with carpet for 3 years before I ever touched a piece of vinyl, so when I moved on to the vinyl it was easier but still tricky. You really need experience building cabs to make them look professional as possible before you're going to have any success. The cab itself needs to be well put together as well, not many of your customers will pay attention to that but some will, and they will probably write reviews on it. If they pull out the speaker and look inside and see there are gaps in the joinery or not enough glue or bracing, they'll let the world know about it and there goes your reputation.

When it comes down to it, you need to be able to (or claim to) offer something with your product that others don't in the price range. That's not always an easy thing to do no matter what you think. With the internet, people are not as gullible as they were in the days of BOSE, which lead to their success. You can't really claim to offer something better and not deliver anymore, it will be published on the internet and everyone will know. So it's really got to be top notch for the price class. Using generic woofers like the MCM isn't going to get you there, stick with Eminence, at least then you can say you use eminence components. And frankly I think your cabs would be quickly put into the "pyle pro" category.

[ckmoore]

If he thinks the PE forum is elitist, he sure is in for a rude awakening if he asks the same questions the same way at "the other forums"...

that being said, I do think some may have been a bit harsh, but no one was wrong.

[madmallard]

I dunno. I sure didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling reading this thread myself.

:(

I dunno CK, maybe its an issue of some of the other forums has been leaking into here.

-------

I didn't see anyone ask if he had built any pre-existing 2way or 3way design before. I bet that would have completely truncated alot of the responses he seemed to feel were infuriating by knowing if he had that experience under his belt.

It seemed like nobody was interested in -his interest- in the hobby. This hobby is already inherently harsh towards newcomers with the volume of basic knowledge to consume required to even be minimally effective. If you have no pre-existing skills, then even if you follow a proven design, you need wood working (a volume of skills themselves, esp if you including finishing), soldering, a quick clinic in reading circuit diagrams at the least... the list gets daunting.

[diy speaker guy]

I didn't see anyone ask if he had built any pre-existing 2way or 3way design before. I bet that would have completely truncated alot of the responses he seemed to feel were infuriating by knowing if he had that experience under his belt.

I would certainly hope that he's at least built one pre existing multiway speaker before, but that experience doesn't qualify someone to build a marketable multiway product. Especially if the xo design is based on the xo calculators at 12volt.com (or any other textbook formula xo design calculator). A multiway design with a primitive xo, no warranty and a homemade look is not going to sell well against commercial products. It sounds harsh when stated bluntly but that's life.

At some point the harsh reality must be faced. What the OP wanted to do in post 1 is almost impossible at $500/cab. The bass driver and tweeter alone cost $140 and he still needs a tweeter horn flare and a mid, so $200 minimum per cab in drivers alone. He doesn't want to use electrolytics, so figure at least $100 per cab in xo components. Wood, finish, hardware (binding posts, corners), shop supplies, tools are going to be at least another $100 per cab. That leaves a very small margin to make any profit at all, and that's only if nothing goes wrong and his time is worth less than minimum wage. This was immediately and glaringly obvious to me and I'm not even a pro audio guy, this would be painfully evident to the guys with more experience in this area and that have actually tried to make a buck at this.

This is not an easy field to break into and 3 way pro audio cabs are not a good place to start for a self proclaimed novice with no xo design experience. As per my previous post though, there is a bit of room for the ambitious diy'er to make some small change with simpler designs.

I'm sure everyone that's posted here wishes the OP well, we're all just trying to help in our own ways, harsh as it may sound.

[killersoundz]

I'm sure everyone that's posted here wishes the OP well, we're all just trying to help in our own ways, harsh as it may sound.

Right, I'd bet one day, if he continues with his dream, he will learn to appreciate my advice, even if it came off harsh. I wouldn't have wasted my time to just flame someone on this thread, my wise advice should be taken seriously. Managing a business is very difficult, if you couldn't handle some up front advice in plain text online, I don't think you have a chance of handling a sole proprietorship.

[madmallard]

i'm not saying that he had a high apple pie in the sky.

i'm also NOT saying that what anyone said here was wrong, either.

but the presentation of the info, and the apparent complete passing over of someone seemingly genuinely interested in learning from people (if not so much from books), in favour of scrutinising the picture without the person...

I just feel like this could've been broached more effectively, and it would've reflected better on everyone...

maybe thats my apple pie...

[Paul O]

Yeah.. the thread got sidetracked pretty good so we never really got into the details of what this type project involves.

I was all ready to share some dirt on a build I have been playing with.. which just happens to be a 3-way PA speaker. I'm aiming for a system with physical driver alignment in the hopes it will produce better impulse response and maybe simplify crossover requirements.. though there will be some active processing applied as well. These things will be pretty big at 36" tall and around 100lbs and the final product will be very sensitive(~99db), but one thing they won't do is go very low. Part of that is driver selection.. to get really high sensitivity from a 15 you sacrifice lowend, and having travelled this road before I know I'm wasting my time trying to make a true fullrange PA cab because it takes a lot more displacement than what a couple reflex 15's can provide to produce meaningfull bass and subbass in a typical venue, so subs are always manditory.

[tomzarbo]

Superhands,

I don't have suggestions on what type of mid or high drivers to use, but I just drew up this sketch real quick to demonstrate an idea I had while reading your thread.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f257/TomZarbo/PortablePASystemBW.jpg

It shows a fairly easy way to conserve space in a full range PA speaker. It's probably fairly obvious from the pic, but the cab is basically two separate cabs joined together with a few screw/bolt thingies and some washers/wing nuts.

for transporting the cab, the mid/high unit is removed and placed inside the main bass bin and tightened with wingnuts. When setting up, the mid/high cabinet is removed (a handle would help) and inverted on top of the bass bin to seal the bass cab and finish out the mid and high ranges. Some dense foam weatherstripping on the bass bin near the opening would seal it up acoustically speaking.

Since larger speakers are a nightmare to move regardless of the kind they are: PA, Home stereo, etc. I had thought of this some time ago as a way to make things easier to transport. Problem is, it's not so attractive!

I know you weren't asking for layout ideas, you probably have a few already, but I thought it was a decent idea, so I thought I'd share!

Best of luck with your project,

TomZ

[billfitzmaurice]

I don't have suggestions on what type of mid or high drivers to use, but I just drew up this sketch real quick to demonstrate an idea I had while reading your thread.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f257/TomZarbo/PortablePASystemBW.jpg
Google 'B52 Matrix 1000'.

[tomzarbo]

Google 'B52 Matrix 1000'.

I see...
http://www.djgoldmine.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=307&P_ID=836

That setup does look a bit easier to set up and knock down. :)

TomZ

[billfitzmaurice]

I see...
http://www.djgoldmine.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=307&P_ID=836

That setup does look a bit easier to set up and knock down. :)

TomZCheck the price, and consider that it's a powered system, and you can understand why the OP would have a very difficult time of it even if he did have the requisite skills.

[killersoundz]

Check the price, and consider that it's a powered system, and you can understand why the OP would have a very difficult time of it even if he did have the requisite skills.

Yep, wisdom here. The only way through is to offer something better than what there is for a given price, and like I said, that is a very hard thing to do for even a very experienced professional. Consumers aren't always the brightest, but they aren't stupid either, and with the internet it is impossible to pull the wool over their eyes and sell them a pile of rubbish.

[meep]

QUOTE: "which was more or less the gigging bar-band crowd,..."

I have been there, and I built my own all-in-one cabs that hit low and high-- they were folded horns with tweets for tops.

They sounded full and rich.

And the band hated them because of load-in and load-out. couldn't carry. needed dollies.

a pair of tops and a pair of subs, the current standard, would have been better for us. or just a pair of tops, forget the kick drum and let the bassist play thru his amp like he wants to anyway.

I applaud the OPs interest. Folks that only drive cars shouldn't build motorcycles. may help if you do some gigging or get hooked up with a local sound guy for a bit-- see what really works and doesn't.

M

[Sydney]

Since at least a couple of guys who posted responses have at times been personally involved in speaker production ( or attempted to ):
The advise given so far was along the lines of "been there, tried that" and cautionary rather than derogatory.

[killersoundz]

Since at least a couple of guys who posted responses have at times been personally involved in speaker production ( or attempted to ):
The advise given so far was along the lines of "been there, tried that" and cautionary rather than derogatory.

Well said

[AMC]

QUOTE:
may help if you do some gigging or get hooked up with a local sound guy for a bit-- see what really works and doesn't.

M

That might be the smartest this I've heard on this thread.

As for Tomzarbo's idea, I like the fact that your system actually reduces volume in transport mode, the others don't.

[Mighty Saturn V]

[QUOTE=Superhands;1699025]Hey guys. I'm looking to get my DIY pro audio hobby business back up off the ground, and I'm looking to draw up some designs for some killer, yet affordable, PA mains. The main design goals here are to cover the entire spectrum in a single cabinet with a smooth, relatively flat response. It's important that the system produces big bass while compensating for the abysmal off-axis response of the traditional 15+1 configuration, so I'm thinking a 3-way is the only way. I'm asking for suggestions on some of the drivers that I should consider using to achieve these goals.

Yeah, seems a simple and effective set up might be two cabinets, one with two of the MCM 15's you mentioned (the specs on those look great) the other with a single extended range 12" (more surface area then a 10" with better midrange extension then most 10's).
Since Eminence supplies a frequency graph for their speakers you can see at a glance which 12" would have the balance of high efficiency, power handling and flattest response, if you choose a 16 ohm 12" you'll have the added bonus of increased power handling with a 3 db loss however in an efficient speaker (99 db 1w/1m or so) you'll get a 96 db 1w/1m speaker that handles enough power to absorb most situations (new sound guys...feedback loops...screaming vocalists etc.), combined with the Selenium compression driver and crossed over higher then usual (perhaps 3 khz) you'll have mids effortlessly reproduced by the extended range 12" while protecting and increasing power handling of the compression driver from harsh low-mids (800 -3 khz).
Of course if you put money aside you could always use the Radian 850-PB compression driver (I recommend the 16 ohm version) -for less then $300 you get a flat frequency response that extends beyond 20 khz yet achieves an honest 113 db throughout that range using a mere 1 watt @ 1 meter, considering it handles a very conservative 75 watts its difficult to beat this drivers "fidelity-efficiency-price".
Anyway all of the mumbo jumbo I just typed is only one of a million or so possibilities...I hope it works out for you and have a great day.

[Music is life]

The only way to make money in this line of endeavour imo would to have very well thought out and implemented designs for "custom" building where you solve a "problem" or address and niche that no one or few are addressing.

You must "beat" the competition where they are not filling the "need" as good as you can.

Line array for small bands for example. They cannot afford $3000 cabs. But You better know how to integrate tweeters and a bunch of other stuff.

Subs that are designed to go much lower for some style of DJ use.
Subs that are incredibly sensitive.

A clarity that will set band members back on their heals.

No one will simply undercut the big boys by doing everything the same but cheaper. The private builder will never be seen as having the same "guarantee" security to the purchaser.
Ones products have to cost a reasonable amount so that they are worth building or being built.

I've built dozens and dozens of horns and designs just to to learn and get a feel. I'm still not quite ready to start up my own custom building. I've got another load of horns in the back yard ready for the trash. But got some really nice sounding prototypes to begin to choose from but that's from 3+ years of fooling around.

When I do get going it's because I'm already making money somewhere and somehow else and can afford to fail but will do it because I love great sound and often just don't hear it. And "that's" the problem that needs solved imo.

Just my perspective.

[Maxnumar]

Thank you for the quick response... Im gonna read that thread on how amps work, there are just so many on the market that its kinda overwhelming. lol I would hate to dish out loads of money on something I dont need or that isnt good enough. Ive narrowed my choice for amp brands down to either Crown or QSC... just not sure which one. Ill probably need a separate amp to drive my 250 tops huh??
Thanks again

[cavecom]

Try following the advise that every small biz owner should, work for someone who is in the biz you want to be in. Learn the ropes at their expense, not yours. Go ahead and experiment with your own designs, but remember that most experiments are failures- but they are the key to real learning. If you want to stand out you have to offer something different, or be the kind of person people want to buy ice water from in January. There is an old saying "It's not what you know, it's who you know" That might get you in the door, but put out a crappy product and your name is Muddy Bottoms.
Good Luck

[dusty]

what is the matter with all that cricitism? what if your kid want to cut grass for your neightbor for $20 ... would you advise your kid to take a lesson or buying professional mower ... or all that " been there, done that "... what is a big deal about speaker design that we have to brag about... I saw every guy got shot down when they mention about speaker business in this forum ..

[wg_ski]

The difference is that the kid is being subsidized. Daddy still pays the mortgage, healthcare, and car insurance. That changes the business model considerably.

Nobody said don't build PA speakers. They're just saying don't quit your day job. If I didn't have a job subsidizing my pro sound *hobby*, I'd either be using the cheapest junk I could get my hands on, or take out a business loan for a quarter million and hope I could drum up the work to pay it off. Neither is really an option.

[billfitzmaurice]

what is the matter with all that cricitism? what if your kid want to cut grass for your neightbor for $20 ... would you advise your kid to take a lesson or buying professional mower ... or all that " been there, done that "... what is a big deal about speaker design that we have to brag about... I saw every guy got shot down when they mention about speaker business in this forum ..In this case the OP's original intent would have been the equivalent of offering to cut your grass for $20 ...using a pair of clippers.

[critofur]

To all of you veterans/pros whatnot on here, it's perfectly fine if he copies and sells any of your designs/ideas - if you get angry about it that's your problem, not his. Unless 1) you've got a patent 2) he's clearly violating it and/or 3) you want to waste your time suing some kid selling a few pairs of speakers.

I'm sure plenty of you would be jealous if this kid who presumably doesn't know jack, and hasn't put in the hard time, sells a few pairs of speakers to his friends.

Ok, with that out of the way: I don't know if you're going to really get any helpful advice from us here on this forum about how to build the three way you want, who knows, maybe you will. I say: do it in two cabinets per side. Put the 15" in it's own cabinet on the bottom and put something like the "econowave" with a 10" or 12" Deltalite II woofer and the Selenium D220Ti-8 tweeter on the top.

Sorry some of the old farts around here seem to be in a foul mood...