Karma Indignia vs. Silver Als

[panterra]

I was looking at the latest project in the Project Showcase and wanted to compare the specs with my Silver Als since they use the same drivers. No XO schematic is presented in the XO design section. Only a response curve is shown - not real helpful.:confused:


Anyone on the forum have it?

http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=KarmaIndignia

[benhinkle711]

From post no. 306 in the Indignia thread over at AudioKarma:

I also have the Silver Al's UE edition.

[panterra]

From post no. 306 in the Indignia thread over at AudioKarma:

I also have the Silver Al's UE edition.

Here is the Silver Als' XO. The indignia has one less component. I do like my Silver Als. I was wondering how different these sound. The port is a little longer in the Indignias with a smaller cab.




We decided on a 1.5" port that is 8" long that would yield a tuning frequency of 37 Hz. According to simulation this would give us an f3 of about 47 Hz. We wanted the front baffle to be uniform so that the crossover would not have to be modified for each build to account for baffle step or driver spacing. The Dayton Audio MB38 baffle blank was chosen as the standard, as that is what fits the Parts Express 0.38 cu. ft. cabinets. A matching magnetic grill is also available for a finished look.


BR-1 cab is a little bigger at 0.52 cubic feet with a ~6" port.




alignment and is tuned to 38 Hz with a rear mounted port. This tuning results in a f3 of 43 Hz.


http://panterragroup.home.mindspring.com/audio/SilverAlsUEXOver.jpg

[Wolf]

I've heard Shawn's 'UE', and felt it was the best and most well designed version of them. I also heard the original dorm-version and the midpoint in the process.

I'd be interested in hearing the KI just to see how they compare.
Later,
Wolf

[fastbike1]

Indignia XO on page 17 of Jan-Feb flyer.
http://www.parts-express.com/salesflyer/index.html

[robertclark]

Wolk,
I plan to have my KI's done in a week or so. I'll be bringing them to St. Louis.

[robertclark]

Errrrrrrrrrrr................. I mean WOLF.

[Mark65]

Errrrrrrrrrrr................. I mean WOLF.

I was gonna correct you on that, but I figured you'd get it sooner or later...:D

I'm a bit less than happy that this is the current showcase project. Are ANY of the designers members of this board? And why oh WHY did they ignore the already proven, EXCELLENT Silver Al's? I guess Shawn didn't submit it, but really? A team of designers couldn't do better than the Silkie? Really? I'll put my recent Davies design up against the KI's, same woofer, better tweeter, they're built entirely out of parts from PE, and they don't cost that much more in parts. My boxes are a little bigger, but sealed, and they modeled at 49Hz F3, vs 47Hz for the ported KI. I dunno, I'm sure they're nice, but I think I came at least close all on my own.;)


Mark

[Wolf]

Brian-
I won't be going to the MO meet. It happens to be the same weekend as my wife and I's birthdays (3 years and 3 days apart), or the closest to them.

Maybe you can bring them to InDIYana in the spring...

Mark-
I would think your tweeter sounds better! :)
Later,
Wolf

[Nignog]

I was gonna correct you on that, but I figured you'd get it sooner or later...:D

I'm a bit less than happy that this is the current showcase project. Are ANY of the designers members of this board? And why oh WHY did they ignore the already proven, EXCELLENT Silver Al's? I guess Shawn didn't submit it, but really? A team of designers couldn't do better than the Silkie? Really? I'll put my recent Davies design up against the KI's, same woofer, better tweeter, they're built entirely out of parts from PE, and they don't cost that much more in parts. My boxes are a little bigger, but sealed, and they modeled at 49Hz F3, vs 47Hz for the ported KI. I dunno, I'm sure they're nice, but I think I came at least close all on my own.;)


Mark

I don't see how it matters, but yes some of the AK members who worked on the Indignia are members here as well. Zilch is the first name that springs to mind. The designers picked the silkie when it was on sale, because they had a price target they wanted to hit, also if you read the write-up, the box size was not negotiable because the design goal included being able to use a prefab box (the PE .38 cubic ft box in this case).

I suggest reading the write-up - it explains most of the questions you seem to have trouble comprehending.

Take care,
Nignog

[MSaturn]

The DQ25 could have done it for cheaper, and better, and with a smaller C2C distance.

[benhinkle711]

I suggest reading the write-up - it explains most of the questions you seem to have trouble comprehending.

One post and already making friends. :rolleyes:

I think the point Mark is making is that there is already an established design, which is several years old through it's various iterations, from TechTalk forum member ShawnA using these exact drivers that seems to have been overlooked by PE for the Project Showcase. The Silver Al design can also be built using a prefab cabinet if so desired using the PE .5 cu. ft. enclosure.

As I stated earlier in this thread I have a set of the Silver Al's and since they were the same minus the cabinet I built the Indginia XO and used my existing cabinets. In the end however I stuck with the Silver Al's UE preferring the midrange over the Indginia's. I will say that both are fine designs and that both Shawn A and Zilch and the AK crew deserve kudos.

[Nignog]

So the problem is... what exactly? That the AK had the gall to make their own design... or that PE put the design in their showcase? I'm not quite clear on why all the hate.

If the Silver Al's are excellent, then what is the issue with the idignias being in the showcase? What does it matter how many people on the AK design crew have PE Tech Talk accounts? If the silver al's are so great (Im not saying they arent, by the way) why rip on the Indignia using the Silky?

[johnnyrichards]

So the problem is... what exactly? That the AK had the gall to make their own design... or that PE put the design in their showcase? I'm not quite clear on why all the hate.

There is no hate, just honest confusion. I don't know what your problem is, though.

[Nignog]

There is no hate, just honest confusion. I don't know what your problem is, though.

I don't have a problem - it's just some honest confusion

[MSaturn]

My problem is: The "Silkie" just isn't that great. It keeps showing up in cheap designs, and there are plenty of other useful cheap tweeters.

PE should be pushing the RS28-F, which has the biggest cajones of all tweeters, and everyone seems to love.

It's not as cheap, but it's a quarter the price of most of its real competition.

[Nignog]

My problem is: The "Silkie" just isn't that great. It keeps showing up in cheap designs, and there are plenty of other useful cheap tweeters.

PE should be pushing the RS28-F, which has the biggest cajones of all tweeters, and everyone seems to love.

It's not as cheap, but it's a quarter the price of most of its real competition.

I agree that the Reference Tweeter is an amazing driver, but PE can only choose from what has been submitted, and the AK design was a price point desisgn, and there's no way the budget could have held the rs28. The rs28 has recently been in the showcase however - Im pretty sure the Black Box design uses them.

[Mark65]

I apologize if I came across as hating on the design. I did not mean to offend.:(

I have no doubt that it is a fine sounding speaker, and I will admit to skimming over the part about the price point, as well. I mean, I read it, I just did not grasp the importance, I guess. Sorry.

Mark

[panterra]

:eek: I didn't mean to start all this. Being such a noob, I am just trying to learn how the differences in specific XO components and cabinet designs affect speaker output using the same drivers, such as a longer port in a smaller, cabinet (indignias), etc.

[Nignog]

:eek: I didn't mean to start all this. Being such a noob, I am just trying to learn how the differences in specific XO components and cabinet designs affect speaker output using the same drivers, such as a longer port in a smaller, cabinet (indignias), etc.

I suggest looking at the speaker building bible thread, the one that's stickied. Both designs get to basically the same spot, using different techniques. The AK design was handicapped by having the goal of allowing the builder to just buy a pre-fabbed box.

As far as XO components, you can do a ton - response shaping, impedance equalization, shallow or steep slopes, loss padding, etc.

Different box alignments have trade-offs. A large sealed box will generally provide a smooth roll-off, at the trade-off of some overall efficiency (Usually. There are some special case woofers that only work well in ported or horn boxes, and some high Q woofers that only work decently in sealed boxes, or even no box at all)

[Wolf]

Too bad the DQ25 sucks most of the time and the RS28F I'm not sold on yet. Something does not sound right.
Later,
Wolf

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Perhaps the reason the Silver Al isn't in the showcase and the KI is, is because the KI was submitted for the showcase, and the Silver Al wasn't?

There are LOTs of designs on the board here, and MOST are not in the showcase.

I don't quite understand the indignation proffered by some over a supposed "slight" toward ShawnA. The KI is a well documented and widespread variation on PE drivers. It's nice to see it in the showcase.

[benhinkle711]

I don't quite understand the indignation proffered by some over a supposed "slight" toward ShawnA. The KI is a well documented and widespread variation on PE drivers. It's nice to see it in the showcase.


Agreed on all points. However there were only three posts involving any kind of "indignation" of any sort. Mark's, to which he has already apologized, Nignog's in response to Mark, and mine ,which wasn't over a slight to Shawn rather at Nignog's response to Mark. With Mark's being the only one involving any sort of slight on Shawn's behalf. So "some" was really just one. Just a normal forum spat. I've seen much worse here over much less.

[panterra]

Agreed on all points. However there were only three posts involving any kind of "indignation" of any sort. Mark's, to which he has already apologized, Nignog's in response to Mark, and mine ,which wasn't over a slight to Shawn rather at Nignog's response to Mark. With Mark's being the only one involving any sort of slight on Shawn's behalf. So "some" was really just one. Just a normal forum spat. I've seen much worse here over much less.

The only slight I would have would not be with either of the systems but rather the DA175-8's construction. It is too easy to tighten the mounting screws too tight resulting in dimpling the frame at the screw holes. The basket's lip at the perimiter is raised with no support behind it when mounting it, leaving a gap. Hard for me to explain if you haven't seen the driver. I would also like to see it with 6 screw holes instead of 5. It is the same design on the 8" version.

[robertclark]

Wolf,

They'll be coming with me to Indiana too.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

The only slight I would have would not be with either of the systems but rather the DA175-8's construction. It is too easy to tighten the mounting screws too tight resulting in dimpling the frame at the screw holes. The basket's lip at the perimiter is raised with no support behind it when mounting it, leaving a gap. Hard for me to explain if you haven't seen the driver. I would also like to see it with 6 screw holes instead of 5. It is the same design on the 8" version.

You're describing why the DA175 is such a great bargain. Great performance, low price. Changes to the frame would add cost.

It is easy to dimple the frame, but if you're careful, it can be avoided. You could add a few small washers between the baffle and the frame to make sure you don't dimple it. And it might be possible to score the baffle to allow the shoulder to drop into a narrow channel so that the flat part of the frame is resting on a solid surface.

Still, if you just hand tighten the screws to the onset of the frame distorting, stop, and you won't have a problem.

If they do any changes to the DA175, I'd like to see a little copper in the motor, and maybe a bit more BL to bring the sensitivity up a tad.

[panterra]

You're describing why the DA175 is such a great bargain. Great performance, low price. Changes to the frame would add cost.

It is easy to dimple the frame, but if you're careful, it can be avoided. You could add a few small washers between the baffle and the frame to make sure you don't dimple it. And it might be possible to score the baffle to allow the shoulder to drop into a narrow channel so that the flat part of the frame is resting on a solid surface.

Still, if you just hand tighten the screws to the onset of the frame distorting, stop, and you won't have a problem.

If they do any changes to the DA175, I'd like to see a little copper in the motor, and maybe a bit more BL to bring the sensitivity up a tad.

It is a great performer and that only causes a cosmetic mar that only takes once to know to be careful next time. I did get a pair of the 8" version to mate with the North tweeters being that I was just so impressed with the 7" to use in some bigger cabinets for garage 2-way speakers. Thanks for the remedies, I will give them a try. If we keep wishing for design improvements, for instance a phase plug, maybe if it were to come in black, etc., well heck, we would have an RS. LOL.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

It is a great performer and that only causes a cosmetic mar that only takes once to know to be careful next time. I did get a pair of the 8" version to mate with the North tweeters being that I was just so impressed with the 7" to use in some bigger cabinets for garage 2-way speakers. Thanks for the remedies, I will give them a try. If we keep wishing for design improvements, for instance a phase plug, maybe if it were to come in black, etc., well heck, we would have an RS. LOL.

NO PHASE PLUG PLEASE!!!! I think that dust cap actually mitigates some cone resonances, or at least, helps keep them in check. It's already got a nice vented pole piece, so compression under the dust cap is probably minimal. And the suspension appears to be excellent, which can be inferred from the low 2nd harmonic distortion.

With a little copper, that 3rd and 5th harmonic would drop down to hang with its 2nd order sibling, and take it from a being a good performer, to a great performer, at least in the mid range.

DA175 THD
http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/DA175-8-HD.gif

Scanspeak 18W8531 THD
http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/18W8531G-HD.gif

[MSaturn]

Indeed, higher order distortions tend to be motor related in my experience. More saturation and a shorting ring would probably drop those numbers 6dB or more.

See the buyouts Zaph tested for a good example of cheap motor improvement. That demodulation coil is just so cute.

[panterra]

NO PHASE PLUG PLEASE!!!! I
DA175 THD


Scanspeak 18W8531 THD


It's OK, it was just a joke. :o Just saying that if we keep asking for improvements, the cost will indeed be closer to higher end speakers like the RS line (phase plug, black aluminum etc.) Yeah, that phase plug on one of my Usher 8945Ps gave me some problems with a piece of an XO component lead falling into the gap.

That Scan-speak is pretty.

[Nignog]

I suggest looking at the speaker building bible thread, the one that's stickied. Both designs get to basically the same spot, using different techniques. The AK design was handicapped by having the goal of allowing the builder to just buy a pre-fabbed box.

As far as XO components, you can do a ton - response shaping, impedance equalization, shallow or steep slopes, loss padding, etc.

Different box alignments have trade-offs. A large sealed box will generally provide a smooth roll-off, at the trade-off of some overall efficiency (Usually. There are some special case woofers that only work well in ported or horn boxes, and some high Q woofers that only work decently in sealed boxes, or even no box at all)


Agreed on all points. However there were only three posts involving any kind of "indignation" of any sort. Mark's, to which he has already apologized, Nignog's in response to Mark, and mine ,which wasn't over a slight to Shawn rather at Nignog's response to Mark. With Mark's being the only one involving any sort of slight on Shawn's behalf. So "some" was really just one. Just a normal forum spat. I've seen much worse here over much less.
I apologize for how I responded to Mark's post.

[shawn_a]

I just pulled the latest flyer out of the mailbox 10 minutes ago and had a bit of a chuckle. First off, I never submitted the Silver Als to the showcase for one reason: I was freakin tired of the design by the time I started working on the UE. Yeah that's right, the UE almost didn't happen but I wanted to try one more thing that was bugging me and it all had to do with midrange performance. I wanted to wring what I could out of the drivers to see if I could get the midrange even close to what I was wanting. I was probably asking way too much from the drivers in terms of all-around sound quality but it was a fun project to stretch my abilities a bit more than i was once accustomed.

Turns out I feel I accomplished that goal but once I was happy I was far beyond being rather tired of continually messing around with it. I decided to put it on the done forevermore list and move on. For those who built it I'm really hope you like them. And if you don't well then it looks like there is another option to try.

I have no reason to feel slighted at all and I am honestly glad that a decent little budget speaker like this still gets as much thought as it does.

shawn

[djg]

I had no problem not dimpling the DA175 frames. It is obvious that it is thin raised sheet metal, prone to being crushed. I set my Makita clutch to very low torque and had no problem. Ten DA175s in my system.

[benhinkle711]

I apologize for how I responded to Mark's post.

I apologize for my snide response to you Nignog.

[panterra]

I think I am going to need a tissue.

[benhinkle711]

I think I am going to need a tissue.

Group hug? :p

[panterra]

I had no problem not dimpling the DA175 frames. It is obvious that it is thin raised sheet metal, prone to being crushed. I set my Makita clutch to very low torque and had no problem. Ten DA175s in my system.

Dang, you are smart. I figured it out after the fact. Hopefully I'll know better next time. Makita - what luxury! I should have set my wrist clutch to very low torque. :rolleyes: My DA175s are also set into the ill-fitting BR-1 cabinets, which doesn't help any.

[robertclark]

Turns out I feel I accomplished that goal but once I was happy I was far beyond being rather tired of continually messing around with it. I decided to put it on the done forevermore list and move on. For those who built it I'm really hope you like them. And if you don't well then it looks like there is another option to try.

I have no reason to feel slighted at all and I am honestly glad that a decent little budget speaker like this still gets as much thought as it does.

What's up Shawn..........................

I think a lot of folks weren't aware of your design even though the Silver Al ultimate edition XO was already out on the web before Zilch and company started the thread over on AK. Now I understand your not submitting it to PE since the project was just an "intellectual exercise" on your part.

Heck, I almost built a pair of those for the wife's system after the IowaDIY 2006 event because I wanted to find something do with the four DA-175 woofs that I had sitting around from the BAMTM entry. I kinda decided to start building on the KI's about 7 months ago (had completed the XO's) with the hope of taking them to this years Iowa event but time constraints from work (and entry limitations) caused me to shelve them. I guess seeing the KI's showcased in the flyer renewed my interest and should have cabinets for the KI's done soon. I'm interested in hearing how they sound for a "budget" design.


Hope to see you in Indiana.................

Brian

[djg]

Dang, you are smart. I figured it out after the fact. Hopefully I'll know better next time. Makita - what luxury! I should have set my wrist clutch to very low torque. :rolleyes: My DA175s are also set into the ill-fitting BR-1 cabinets, which doesn't help any.

Not smart, just experienced. Years as a mechanic gives one a feel for such things.

[Mark65]

I think I am going to need a tissue.

Me too.:o


Group hug? :p


I'm in!:D

Mark

[panterra]

Not smart, just experienced. Years as a mechanic gives one a feel for such things.

Sure you are. I "obviously" wasn't smart enough since it should have been so obvious to anyone with half a brain. :p Of course, now I am smart enough to watch out for that happening again. ;) See, experience can make you smarter.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Sure you are. I "obviously" wasn't smart enough since it should have been so obvious to anyone with half a brain. :p Of course, now I am smart enough to watch out for that happening again. ;) See, experience can make you smarter.

That's another great thing about the DA175. If it blows up or gets damaged, replacement is CHEAP!!! :D

[rayw]

Are ANY of the designers members of this board?

I'm here. I just don't check in often enough.



And why oh WHY did they ignore the already proven, EXCELLENT Silver Al's?

If you read the design thread on the Indignias over at AK you'll see that we started with a budget, then picked an enclosure that non-woodworkers could buy, then a woofer that would work in it, and then a tweeter to match up with said woofer that still fit in the budget. After we got that far, I guess nobody gave much thought to searching the interwebs to see if a design with those drivers already existed. We just ran with the momentum we had.

Another point to be made is that the design and thread dedicated to it were meant to be kind of a tutorial for folks new to speaker design/building. More user friendly than be all, end all of speaker design.

I came really close to bringing my Indignias to MAF last July. Still not sure why I decided not to do it.

Wolf, if you're down in the south end of Indiana it might be possible to get a listen. I'm about an hour west of Evansville.

Ray

[panterra]

I'm here. I just don't check in often enough.




If you read the design thread on the Indignias over at AK you'll see that we started with a budget, then picked an enclosure that non-woodworkers could buy, then a woofer that would work in it, and then a tweeter to match up with said woofer that still fit in the budget. After we got that far, I guess nobody gave much thought to searching the interwebs to see if a design with those drivers already existed. We just ran with the momentum we had.

Another point to be made is that the design and thread dedicated to it were meant to be kind of a tutorial for folks new to speaker design/building. More user friendly than be all, end all of speaker design.

Ray

And you succeeded. Just to see the same drivers used in different enclosure and to see how those differences are compensated for in the electronics end of the system is always interesting to me.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I'm here. I just don't check in often enough.




If you read the design thread on the Indignias over at AK you'll see that we started with a budget, then picked an enclosure that non-woodworkers could buy, then a woofer that would work in it, and then a tweeter to match up with said woofer that still fit in the budget. After we got that far, I guess nobody gave much thought to searching the interwebs to see if a design with those drivers already existed. We just ran with the momentum we had.

Another point to be made is that the design and thread dedicated to it were meant to be kind of a tutorial for folks new to speaker design/building. More user friendly than be all, end all of speaker design.

I came really close to bringing my Indignias to MAF last July. Still not sure why I decided not to do it.

Wolf, if you're down in the south end of Indiana it might be possible to get a listen. I'm about an hour west of Evansville.

Ray

I went an even cheaper route by using the HiVi K1 and a pair of throw-away paradigm cabinets.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a203/pete_schumacher/Moserproject.jpg

[Steve Henry]

Pete - would you mind posting the crossover for the K1 design. I have a pair I would like to use.

Thanks,

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Pete - would you mind posting the crossover for the K1 design. I have a pair I would like to use.

Thanks,

There's more BSC in my design, but that was to taste anyway.

If you simply drop the K1 into the existing Indignia XO, you'll be so close that you'll only have to modify the padding value to account for any sensitivity differences between the silky and K1.

From modeling, you may even be able to lose the 18uF cap. If you do drop it, reducing the .25mH to .2 seems to really get the phase to tighten up.

[Steve Henry]

There's more BSC in my design, but that was to taste anyway.

If you simply drop the K1 into the existing Indignia XO, you'll be so close that you'll only have to modify the padding value to account for any sensitivity differences between the silky and K1.

From modeling, you may even be able to lose the 18uF cap. If you do drop it, reducing the .25mH to .2 seems to really get the phase to tighten up.

Thanks!!

[MSaturn]

How does the K1 sound in the long term? It's so cheap, but it measures decent .. but Zaph doesn't measure for IMD, and he notes something about that.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

How does the K1 sound in the long term? It's so cheap, but it measures decent .. but Zaph doesn't measure for IMD, and he notes something about that.

K1 sounds pretty good. And when it's mated to the DA175, the woofer will run out of gas before the K1 does. Keep it crossed above 2K.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Pete - would you mind posting the crossover for the K1 design. I have a pair I would like to use.

Thanks,

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showpost.php?p=1703378&postcount=36