Not all Baltic Birch is the same!!!!!

[killersoundz]

I'm being employed by a startup business to build their speaker cabinets. They just went and purchased a truck load of 'Baltic Birch' from a local hardware store in 5x5 sheet format and delivered it to me. Now this is a different place than I get my Baltic Birch from in 4x8 format, so I'm used to that.

Hmmmmm, clearly not made in the same factory. I was under the assumption that the name "Baltic Birch" means a consistent product from the same factory. The 5x5 sheet stuff they brought isn't bad but it's not as good as the 4x8 sheets I buy. The 5x5 actually has a much better looking veneer on it, it could be stained, where the 4x8 I buy could not. However the 4x8 is nearly voidless and incredibly consistent throughout, the 5x5 is not. It actually looked to me like chinese plywood at first glance from all the different shades of the layers in the middle, where as the 'BB' I'm used to only has two alternating shades between the plies. The 5x5 has considerable voids.

I will say that it is still overall much much better quality than Chinese 'birch' plywood, but still not the top notch Baltic Birch I am used to.

The only upside (for them) is that it was on sale and almost half the price I pay for a 4x8 sheet :mad:

Kind of disappointed though to learn that the name Baltic Birch can no longer be synonymous with top notch quality ply in my eyes.

That's just my first impression, I'll have to see how it is once I start working with it, if I do roundovers and I have to sit there and fill in voids and tear out with filler I'm going to be ******.

[DoubleTap]

You do realize that 4'x8' BB most likely comes from China, where 5'x5' likely comes from Russia.

The 4'x8' Chinese BB I get is perfect, and consistent from lot to lot.

[PassingInterest]

Apple Ply is the American answer to BB and is consistantly high quality.

[50 watt head]

In the past, as far as I know, *real* BB (from Russia) only came in 5' x 5' sheets.

[DoubleTap]

See any voids? That's some of your crappy Chinese BB ply.

[killersoundz]

You do realize that 4'x8' BB most likely comes from China, where 5'x5' likely comes from Russia.

The 4'x8' Chinese BB I get is perfect, and consistent from lot to lot.

Are you serious? LOL I didn't know that. :( Actually though, they bought both 18mm and 12mm in 5x5, the 12mm looks exactly like the Baltic Birch I'm used to. So are the chinese making 5x5 too?


But no, when I say "crappy chinese 'birch' ply" I am talking about the lowes/home depot stuff that is like swiss cheese with paper thin veneers on either side. None of it is even hardwood, it's made out of weeds.

[killersoundz]

Apple Ply is the American answer to BB and is consistantly high quality.

Haven't heard of that.

[fastbike1]

Actually, the best "Baltic Birch" has always been the Finnish variety. Much of the Russian Baltic Birch found today is actually the "shop grade". If you have gotten a better than expected price, you have almost certainly gotten shop grade. As stated before, if you've bought it in 4x8, it didn't come from Russia or Finland. The real stuff is 5x5 or fractions thereof. Your 24x30 piece from Woodcraft or Rockler started as a 60x60 piece that had some bad edge veneer.

[ocdSCHACK]

Plywood is never the same usually. If you're building numerous cabinets, a specialty wood supplier might be better than a hardware or home improvement store. At Lowe's and HD, I always end up with junk... even after I sort through and choose the best piece in the stack. A wood supplier can give you options on how many ply the wood is, what direction the layers run, thickness, finish, wood type, etc. I always thought buying plywood at a home improvement, or hardware store, was like rolling the dice.

[ckmoore]

At HD in Kansas City these days is the green tinted 5 ply BB. (3/4). 1/2 is only 3 ply.

Lowes sells the 11-ply stuff, but is it expensive, and ONLY in the 2x4 handy panels, which are $15 each!

I don't think the 5 ply stuff is terrible overall, but man, when you have a void, you can hide a small kitten in it its so big.

[fntn]

Yep. Not all Baltic Birch is the same. That's sort of why there's a grading system. We've been using Russian Birch for a few years now. The grade we buy is BB which I believe is the most common here in the states. I've never seen shop grade and the warehouses we buy our pallets from don't seem to carry it.


http://alliedveneer.com/what-is-baltic-birch.html#4

[DoubleTap]

At HD in Kansas City these days is the green tinted 5 ply BB. (3/4). 1/2 is only 3 ply.

Lowes sells the 11-ply stuff, but is it expensive, and ONLY in the 2x4 handy panels, which are $15 each!

I don't think the 5 ply stuff is terrible overall, but man, when you have a void, you can hide a small kitten in it its so big.

Anything from Lowes or Home Despot is going to be Luan core, not all Birch.

[fastbike1]

If it's 5 ply 3/4, it's not BB. BB 3/4 is 13 plys.


At HD in Kansas City these days is the green tinted 5 ply BB. (3/4). 1/2 is only 3 ply.

Lowes sells the 11-ply stuff, but is it expensive, and ONLY in the 2x4 handy panels, which are $15 each!

I don't think the 5 ply stuff is terrible overall, but man, when you have a void, you can hide a small kitten in it its so big.

[WayneN]

I was talking to one of the carpenters from our maintenance department a couple weeks ago about Baltic Birch Plywood and he mentioned that there are 5-7 grades depending where you are in the world, he gave me this link. http://www.lathamtimber.co.uk/images/Literature/Birch%20Ply.pdf

So the answer is yes there are different grades!

WayneN

[Erich H]

In the past, as far as I know, *real* BB (from Russia) only came in 5' x 5' sheets.

That's what I thought too.

[djg]

The best BB I have used was 5x5 sheets bought from a cabinet making business. Second best was 4x8 sheets from Menards.

[morris]

Talking about birch plywoods and not having seen it...what is Rotary Birch? Is it better than baltic birch?

[LouC]

No doubt about it. The quality varies. 3-4 years ago it was A/A or at worst A/B. I bought three sheets of 1/2 inch this week. Just about every face has 1-2 "footballs". Supplier said he can't get anything much better.

[davepellegrene]

What about the thickness? The stuff from HD is a 1/16" under 3/4". Sucks when I want to use my 3/4" router bit to plow out dado's for shelves. I use to buy the 5x5x1/2", many years ago' for building drawers. I believe it was a full 1/2". Do you guys know how the thickness runs on the good stuff?
Dave

[AMC]

The only thing I will add about the Lowes and BORG stuff, if you look, on occasion, you will find some very good plywood there, seems to come in on accident. If when your in the store, just walk through the ply and hardwood, about once a year I find a gem. The rest of the year, I go to my local hardwood supplier.

[AMC]

What about the thickness? The stuff from HD is a 1/16" under 3/4". Sucks when I want to use my 3/4" router bit to plow out dado's for shelves. I use to buy the 5x5x1/2", many years ago' for building drawers. I believe it was a full 1/2". Do you guys know how the thickness runs on the good stuff?
Dave

That's because it's not 3/4 inch, it's 18mm I believe. China will not retool to make non-metric boards for us dumb Americans that refuse to convert to the world system of measurement.

[r-carpenter]

There's Baltic Birch 5x5 that comes from Russia. Euro Ply 4x8 or 5x10 from Finland. Apple ply 4x8 from US and Canada. There are some others. I'd ask in the lumberyard before buying.
Some of plywood manufacturers switched to the Chinese produced core panels and just doing the faces in US or Canada. It's horrendous. Panes are not stable and have voids. So you veneer a panel and then a section caves in. Arghhh. I switched to MDF or premium ply. Stuff from Finland is stable and straight, no voids, so is apple ply. Real BB is mostly shop grade because of the face veneer with football patches.

[donradick]

Anything from Lowes or Home Despot is going to be Luan core, not all Birch.

I bought some Lowes Luan 3/4 ply recently, thinking it was pine layers faced with Luan - yikes, soft cr@p all the way through. Makes regular pine ply look like hardwood.

[killersoundz]

What about the thickness? The stuff from HD is a 1/16" under 3/4". Sucks when I want to use my 3/4" router bit to plow out dado's for shelves. I use to buy the 5x5x1/2", many years ago' for building drawers. I believe it was a full 1/2". Do you guys know how the thickness runs on the good stuff?
Dave

1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" are nominal, they're our stupid american measurements. In reality it's 12mm, 15mm and 18mm.

[MSaturn]

Technically they're about 11/256ths of an inch off. heh heh.

[only4fun]

Nothing better than getting a stack of plywood that's not square.

I had that happen one time and it made life so much fun :(

[dwigle]

1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" are nominal, they're our stupid american measurements. In reality it's 12mm, 15mm and 18mm.

"stupid american measurements"??? I like our system. This metric junk is the newcomer, developed by the #$%#@# french.

In our system a thumb length is an inch and a foot is a foot. This system has been around since, uh, thumbs and feet.

[abpc1]

"metric junk"?!?

You might want to tell that to the rest of the world. Even the British switched over to metric. We are the only stalwart of the Imperial measurement system. What is so hard about multiplying/dividing by 10?

Regards,

[Face]

What about the thickness? The stuff from HD is a 1/16" under 3/4". Sucks when I want to use my 3/4" router bit to plow out dado's for shelves. I use to buy the 5x5x1/2", many years ago' for building drawers. I believe it was a full 1/2". Do you guys know how the thickness runs on the good stuff?
Dave
My two BB sources measure it at 18mm.

[fastbike1]

Plywood has always been slightly under in thickness. 3/4 ply is actually 23/32. Your 1/2" wasn't ever a 1/2. It was 15/32. Nominal thickness, same as 1x6, 2x4 etc.
Several companies make plywood specific dado bits.


What about the thickness? The stuff from HD is a 1/16" under 3/4". Sucks when I want to use my 3/4" router bit to plow out dado's for shelves. I use to buy the 5x5x1/2", many years ago' for building drawers. I believe it was a full 1/2". Do you guys know how the thickness runs on the good stuff?
Dave

[fastbike1]

You have short thumbs. Besides, it was the King's thumb, foot, and arm. Are you a Royalist? ;)



"stupid american measurements"??? I like our system. This metric junk is the newcomer, developed by the #$%#@# french.

In our system a thumb length is an inch and a foot is a foot. This system has been around since, uh, thumbs and feet.

[mattk]

"stupid american measurements"??? I like our system. This metric junk is the newcomer, developed by the #$%#@# french.

In our system a thumb length is an inch and a foot is a foot. This system has been around since, uh, thumbs and feet.

Our system is junk, there is no way around it. Why 5280 feet in a mile (I do know why, but it is still stupid)? One kilometer is 1000 meters, not some non-power of 10. And the definition of a meter was originally 10000 meters from the equator to the pole (at least nautical miles make some sense, 1 NM = 1 minute of arc at the equator). One hectare is 100 meters on a side, whereas 1 acre is 208 feet 8.524 inches on a side. Temperature in the metric system is based on water, 0 for freezing, 100 for boiling as opposed to 32 and 212, based on a mixture of ice, water and ammonium chloride (all temps at sea level). Mass is also based on water, 1 cubic centimeter is 1 gram. If you measure the dimensions of something in metric and know the density, you can easily calculate the mass, as everything is powers of 10. Try that with feet, inches, pounds, ounces. And of course, then you have to take into account troy vs avoirdupois, short vs long tons, etc.

Ask Jeff B why his (amazingly good) software uses metric, though the answer should be fairly obvious.

Beyond that, if this country wants to become a bigger exporter of goods, we should adapt to the rest of the world, as they have all gone metric. No one is switching back.

Now, if we could just move to a time system that had 20 "hours" made of 100 "minutes" made of 100 "seconds".... just kidding.

[r-carpenter]

Plywood has always been slightly under in thickness. 3/4 ply is actually 23/32. Your 1/2" wasn't ever a 1/2. It was 15/32. Nominal thickness, same as 1x6, 2x4 etc.
Several companies make plywood specific dado bits.

I remember the times then 3/4 was 3/4 :)
Amana makes undersized router bits for dado cuts and dado saw blade sets usually come with shims to adjust the width. Problem is, plywood now days is all over the place.

As far as dwigle's comment on metric, common bud it's just silly. Metric is easy to use and calculate. Personally I'd prefer metric caliper to standard. 2 woodworking shops in my building switched to metric simply because of 33mm hinge system.
To me it doesn't mater. If the veneered panel has to be 334mm wide, so be it.
But... then we set the microphone away from the driver it's oops 1 meter :D

[Face]

Some of my power tools have metric adjustments only.

[MagicO309d]

If you are shopping for cabinet ply, don't overlook poplar ply. It's just as good and paints even better than birch too IMO.

I snagged some from HD two years ago for a project and it was priced only a little higher than MDF!

[jonpike]

There's some overall guidelines, like ply number... but "baltic birch" has become kind of a generic name, like "kleenex". Lots of stuff out there that gets called by the name, deserving or not.

I'd suggest finding the local contractor's supply houses in your area, or talk to a cabinetmaker, to find where the good stuff is available.

[dwigle]

come on guys, my metric comment was nothing more than a joke, and a good opportunity for a cheap shot at the french.

[davepellegrene]

I remember the times then 3/4 was 3/4 :)
:D

Must be the time I'm from. I could have sworn 3/4" use to be 3/4" and 1/2" use to be 1/2".



I've just resorted to a special jig that I can use an undersized router bit and make two passes to get the width I am working with. It does a cleaner cut and is easier on the router.

Dave

[djg]

I installed a new window in an old farm house once. The 2x4s were really 2" by 4".

[anunnaki]

If working with ply, 19mm 13 ply, cabinet grade, void free ply is the only way to go. Typically quite expensive, but a very strong material.

[dougjohnson]

And the definition of a meter was originally 10000 meters from the equator to the pole

Not to pick, but it was 10,000 kilometers from the pole to the equator on the meridian through Paris. I use that to introduce a wonderful book on the topic: The Measure of All Things http://www.amazon.com/Measure-All-Things-Seven-Year-Transformed/dp/0743216768/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298128824&sr=8-1

It is the story of the teams of surveyors and astronomers that set off to determine the length of the meter by surveying that meridian through France in the middle of the French Revolution. It is a very geeky adventure story. One of the lead surveyors made a mistake and covered it up. So the meter is the wrong length. :eek:

-- Doug

[mattk]

Not to pick, but it was 10,000 kilometers from the pole to the equator on the meridian through Paris. I use that to introduce a wonderful book on the topic: The Measure of All Things http://www.amazon.com/Measure-All-Things-Seven-Year-Transformed/dp/0743216768/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298128824&sr=8-1

It is the story of the teams of surveyors and astronomers that set off to determine the length of the meter by surveying that meridian through France in the middle of the French Revolution. It is a very geeky adventure story. One of the lead surveyors made a mistake and covered it up. So the meter is the wrong length. :eek:

-- Doug

I worked as a surveyor while in college, mostly in the foothills of Colorado. When I started HP introduced their first laser distance meters (yes, I'm old). The first job we did was an 80 acre property in pretty rough terrain using a Wild T2 and steel tape, and closed within around 11 feet. Then my boss bought the HP, we went back and closed within a 10th of a foot. I'm always amazed at the accuracy and precision of the early surveyors using equipment a lot less capable than we used.

[MrkCrwly]

I worked as a surveyor while in college, mostly in the foothills of Colorado. When I started HP introduced their first laser distance meters (yes, I'm old). The first job we did was an 80 acre property in pretty rough terrain using a Wild T2 and steel tape, and closed within around 11 feet. Then my boss bought the HP, we went back and closed within a 10th of a foot. I'm always amazed at the accuracy and precision of the early surveyors using equipment a lot less capable than we used.

Our company bought a Electrotape distance meter in 1965. Pretty sure it is still in the basement. I think it bounced radio waves off of opposing receivers.
14118

[r-carpenter]

come on guys, my metric comment was nothing more than a joke, and a good opportunity for a cheap shot at the french.

Man what is it with you and French? Did they deny you visa or something :D

[mattk]

Our company bought a Electrotape distance meter in 1965. Pretty sure it is still in the basement. I think it bounced radio waves off of opposing receivers.
14118

I'm not quite that old, my boss bought our HP in 1974. It weighed about 15Kg, and was huge. I had the pleasure of carrying it up and down the hills.

Like the pic.

[ocdSCHACK]

Sorry to cut in, but I fight with my old man all the time about this.... metric is perfect! not because it's "metric," but because it's divisible by 10!!!!!!!!! Anything accurate is not taken in divisions of 64ths, 32nds, etc... It's 100ths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Being OCD, I'll fight over this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nbuk]

Sorry to cut in, but I fight with my old man all the time about this.... metric is perfect! not because it's "metric," but because it's divisible by 10!!!!!!!!! Anything accurate is not taken in divisions of 64ths, 32nds, etc... It's 100ths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Being OCD, I'll fight over this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Went to work on oil rigs in Scotland years ago, they gave me a tape measure that was in Feet/Inches to measure the drill pipe we would be using, but there were only 10 inch to a foot, inches divided into tenths !, "It,s an American Tape" I was told, they do that so its easier to work out the drilling depth,,,,, Huh ????????

[Erich H]

metric is perfect! not because it's "metric," but because it's divisible by 10


Then it really IS because it's metric.....because metric is divisible by 10.



Just sending some OCD right back at ya buddy! :D :D :D