My EconoWave build

[Red Spud]

These were a long time coming but I'm glad I took my time with them. I wanted something with the effortless dynamics of some pro 15"+horn two ways I had, but a more clear and balanced freq response. I happened on the various econowave threads led by Zilch and figured that would be my best bet.

I settled on the Selenium D220Ti compression driver on the Pyle PH612 waveguide, with a Dayton 15" PA380-8 pro woofer, and the generic >95dB econowave crossover developed by Jack Giff over on audiokarma.org. The box is 1.6cf tuned to 48Hz, 3/4" plywood double layered on sides and back. I used some leftover carpet scraps to line the boxes, which worked really well. 2-ply teak veneer from http://www.veneersupplies.com/ with several coats of Watco teak oil worked in with bronze wool. I should have the grills finished soon. If I can stop listening to them long enough! :D

I tried to minimize their apparent size by making them fit on the fireplace hearth and not taller than the fireplace screen. They sound excellent, smooth and clear, yet very punchy and dynamic! I'm using them with my Mothman subwoofer that's further down in the project gallery- http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=221399

I wish I could give Zilch a big thanks for these. I started these as a JBL L200 clone with a modern twist, and later saw that Zilch had done the same thing a few years ago, so I hoped he would have a unique appreciation for these, but I was too slow completing them for him to see. I never met him but the small portion of his work I have seen is a legacy to be proud of!

[andykriech]

Very nice, your shape does minimize the look of it. Very elegant, understated finish. They would look great in any decor.
A bit subtle compared to your sub, though ;-)

Andy.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Superb. Beautiful cabinets. Tasteful looks.

[fastbike1]

Really interesting cabinets. That's a great way to integrate a port on the side.
Well done, well done. :cool:

[Thezeek]

Cool!

[Mayhem13]

Excellent! Love the veneer!

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

yes......tasteful.

[Randall Kepley]

You should be proud , RSpud. Those look great. R.K.

[isaeagle4031]

Very nice work. I love that cabinet design. How far back is your listening position? What is degree is the angle on the front baffle? I want to build a pair similar to these for my dad to replace a pair of Magnavox speaks he had when I was a kid.

[emilime75]

Mr. Red Spud. Would you be so kind and explain to me the "econowave sensation"? I've read about it, and while I can see it's possible benefits it's hard to believe such a smattering of mish mash parts and in many cases a non-specific crossover(to the drivers used in many of these projects) will result in a high quality sound. People state that they end results sound great, but I have to look at that as subjective and don't know what they're comparing it to. Am I missing something, not understanding something? I'd like to try and build a pair, but don't want to be disappointed.

[fastbike1]

You're missing something and not understanding something. For starters, the original concept was a modular HF driver/XO that would blend with a variety of woofers. This was also originally designed to repurpose older speaker cabs, Advents be most notable.

The crossover is very specific to the compression driver and waveguide. The LF section is more generic on the original but still has variation for woofer impedance and sensitivity. Beyond that the builder should be picking a woofer that can be crossed at 1600Hz. If you look at most crossover designs you will note that they are pretty simple when not trying to push the woofer out of it's comfort zone.

Further, the Ewave design uses an adjustable Lpad to let the listener further tailor the balance. The real magic of the Econowave lies in the directivity control. I would further guess that you see Econowave and think horn rather than wave guide. If you visit the Econowave thread on Audiokarma (>12770 posts), you might find a large amount of tests and comparisons.

No one makes you build one and heaven forbid someone would be disappointed in a build.



Mr. Red Spud. Would you be so kind and explain to me the "econowave sensation"? I've read about it, and while I can see it's possible benefits it's hard to believe such a smattering of mish mash parts and in many cases a non-specific crossover(to the drivers used in many of these projects) will result in a high quality sound. People state that they end results sound great, but I have to look at that as subjective and don't know what they're comparing it to. Am I missing something, not understanding something? I'd like to try and build a pair, but don't want to be disappointed.

[emilime75]

I have gone over both the AK thread and the "Flex your PCD mettle" thread found here on TechTalk. No, I haven't read every one of the thousands of posts. What I have gathered is the fact that there are a large variety of woofers, compression drivers, waveguides and crossovers used and everyone of them seems to claim outstanding performance. Some with simple generic crossovers and some with very specific and extensively tested crossovers. I know these designs use modern waveguides as opposed to horns, I'm not sure why you assumed I didn't. I'm also not trying to knock Red Spud or his design/build in this thread. I think it looks great and I am interested in the idea which is why I am asking someone who built one if he would care to explain it a little further.

I'm sensing a bit of an attitude with the following sentence

No one makes you build one and heaven forbid someone would be disappointed in a build.

I don't know why you feel that is necessary. Maybe you're a Rockefeller and have the means to spend hundreds of dollars and the time required to build a speaker that you feel could ultimately be a disappointment in your expectations.

Like I said. Maybe I'm missing or missunderstanding something and was hoping for enlightenment from the OP.

[fastbike1]

Here's where "the attitude" comes in. It was your comment about being disappointed. Your previous statements lead me to believe you thought the Econowave would be more likely to "disappoint" than other published designs. Thus the remark that you're not forced to build one. The bulk of the folks on this forum seem to build for a hobby. Those that aren't are looking for very specific designs and/or are building designs that have widespread acceptance.

Since you've read the "Flex your Mettle" thread you know that there are 14 very specific designs and builds, each with measurements. The associated discussions include comparisons so it is unclear what you really wanted to hear.

Frankly this line " I've read about it, and while I can see it's possible benefits it's hard to believe such a smattering of mish mash parts and in many cases a non-specific crossover(to the drivers used in many of these projects) will result in a high quality sound. People state that they end results sound great, but I have to look at that as subjective and don't know what they're comparing it to" is what got me going.

A large number of people have been pleased with the design yet that didn't apparently give you enough confidence to build. So don't build. If you've done the reading you claim and aren't "enlightened", you're not going to be and an Econowave isn't for you.

IF you don't have "the means to spend hundreds of dollars and the time required to build a speaker that you feel could ultimately be a disappointment in your expectations", then why do you care? Many of the builders on the forum have been out of work for time, yet they manage.





I'm sensing a bit of an attitude with the following sentence


I don't know why you feel that is necessary. Maybe you're a Rockefeller and have the means to spend hundreds of dollars and the time required to build a speaker that you feel could ultimately be a disappointment in your expectations.

Like I said. Maybe I'm missing or missunderstanding something and was hoping for enlightenment from the OP.

[emilime75]

Mr. fastbike1, since my post and question were clearly presented towards Red Spud, I'd appreciate it if you kept your opinion of what you think my thoughts are and your attitude to yourself. Thanks a bunch.

I didn't think I was in the wrong by asking someone about their build. I'm pretty sure that's just about what this forum is all about. I'm sorry if the questions and comments that had absolutely nothing to do with you offended you so much. Have a nice day.

[Red Spud]

Thanks for all the positive responses! There are so many beautiful looking and very well scienced-out designs here, I am happy to contribute what little I can.

isaeagle4031, the listening position is 14ft. The baffle is angled 10 degrees. A more upright angle would probably put me more in the middle of the forward lobe when seated, but I liked the look better sloped back more, and figured the forward lobe was wide enough vertically to cover. It seems to.

emilime75, the best I can describe "my version" of econowave is the lively punchy dynamics of a Pro or DJ speaker, toned down with the smoother frequency response of a nice home speaker. I say "my version" because I have not heard anyone else's econowave, or any other controlled directivity speaker to compare to. I just built this because I knew I wanted something from a whole other category of sound from most home speakers, something that had that Pro sound. I had some Peavey's with a 15" woofer and wanted that same level of efficiency/ midbass output, but with a more accurate sound.

I knew this generic crossover wouldn't be an ideal match for my woofer. But my receiver has a very good auto-correction (Audyssey), and I was counting on this to make up for the compromises of the generic crossover. I did set the tweeter level as best I could before running the Audyssey setup. Maybe the ideal crossover would be an improvement, but I lack the best measuring equipment, and my past experiences with measuring were a dead end, with seldom a correlation between the measurements and what I heard. Without the Audyssey correction, it sounds like there is a low around 500Hz and a rise around 1kHz, so the generic crossover shows its shortcomings there. There are other econowave designs that have specific crossovers that are probably perfect sounding with no corrections other than setting the tweeter level.

Of course most folks want to believe whatever they have chosen to build sounds great. My first econowave attempt was using this D220/PH612 and crossover on our old Advents - I bypassed the Advent crossover and tweeter on one speaker with the econowave version, and comparing the modified Advent to the unmodified one always left me preferring the unmodified one. I was really disappointed. Then I happened to try the D220/PH612 and crossover on the Peavey's, with their hi efficiency 15", and found the sound I was looking for. So I got some 15" Dayton pro woofers, rebuilt my <95dB crossovers to >95dB ones, and built some home-looking boxes.

Got the grills done so here are some pics with them. I used the PE neo magnets under the veneer, and 3/4" plywood for the grill frame, with the PE premium black grill cloth, attached with 3M Super 77 spray contact adhesive. The corners were hard to do and I screwed them up a little.

[Red Spud]

Here's a shot including the subwoofer in the corner (Mothman) and my center channel woofer (hahaha).

[djg]

Those look really nice.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Here's a shot including the subwoofer in the corner (Mothman) and my center channel woofer (hahaha).

I like 'em better without the grilles, more interesting visually.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Mr. Red Spud. Would you be so kind and explain to me the "econowave sensation"? I've read about it, and while I can see it's possible benefits it's hard to believe such a smattering of mish mash parts and in many cases a non-specific crossover(to the drivers used in many of these projects) will result in a high quality sound. People state that they end results sound great, but I have to look at that as subjective and don't know what they're comparing it to. Am I missing something, not understanding something? I'd like to try and build a pair, but don't want to be disappointed.

My suggestion would be to make an attempt to get to a local DIY that has an econowave variant to listen to.

Then again, you could listen to a decent Behringer PA 12 or 15" 2-way to get an idea. LOTS of dynamic punch on fractions of the power of a typical home speaker. It will make your 100W amp seem like a 2500W amp in terms of raw total SPL, while still keeping distortion very low. That means things like drums, and other highly transient sounds, will have more realistic impact, since you'll be able to hit those SPL's without clipping your amp.

The trade off is size, and to some, a loss of some subtle detail that might (or might not) be there using systems tailored to the home.

The variant that I got to hear (DeLite) had a very nice, balanced presentation that I really wish I could have had a lot more time with.