real low output from my new subwoofer [Archive] - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

TrickyMike

04-06-2011, 10:49 AM

So, I brought this in the house last night...

http://trick-photo.com/EndTableSubs/7.JPG

TC sounds Epic 12" wired for 4 ohms powered by a Crown XTI-2000 (800Watts per side at 4 ohms)

I was very surprised by how disappointed I was... The sound quality was good, it was the output... or lack thereof. Box and ports built to WinISD spec for 24hz tuning... measure twice cut once, etc. The box came together well & sounds great, but I'm blown away by how much I'm not blown away. There's just nowhere near the volume I had expected. It literally sounds like I'm running it with 80 watts instead of the 800 watts the Crown XTI-2000 is (supposedly) putting out. :(

My first thought is that the pro amp with balanced XLR inputs is looking for a much higher line level than my home receiver's RCA LF channel is spitting out.
So, to take that out of the equation I dragged out my Rane TTM54 DJ mixer that has balanced XLR outs and used that to feed a pretty hot signal to the sub. Better, but still *really* far from my expectations. Admittedly, I don't know for sure what the level voltage coming out of the mixer is, so that *could* be lower than the Crown prefers (1.4v, I believe), but I'm a little doubtful here.

So, obviously you guys can't hear this thing, but I'm wondering about a couple of things...

1. My expectations. I expected this thing at full volume to be reeeeeellly loud. WinISD models with 600 watts show almost 115db. Even if I'm not all the way there that's REALLY loud in my book. I feel like I could run it at full volume in a 15x15 foot room without discomfort. Something just doesn't seem right.
2. I don't have a set of PA speakers to verify that the amp is good... also don't have another amp to verify the sub is good.

Any suggestions you guys could offer?

My current plan is to add one of these guys between the receiver and amp and take it from there, but I'm not so sure there's not more to it based on my mixer test: LINK (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/217366-REG/Rolls_MB15B_MB15b_Promatch_2_Way_Stereo.html)

http://static.bhphotovideo.com/images/images345x345/217366.jpg

lunchmoney

04-06-2011, 10:59 AM

A long shot, but are the connections to the driver terminals robust enough?

Years ago I built an active dj monitor... when I first hooked it up with test leads (18 or 22 gauge plus alligator clips), the output was shockingly low.

Then I soldered 16 gauge to the driver terminals, and all was good.

Steve Henry

04-06-2011, 11:00 AM

I am sure you did this, but just a thought. You have a lot of port volume in that enclosure. Did you take that into account when you built it?

lunchmoney

04-06-2011, 11:01 AM

And are you certain that the dual port geometry (length, diameter, using 2 of them, etc) is correct?

james_e5

04-06-2011, 11:15 AM

I am sure you did this, but just a thought. You have a lot of port volume in that enclosure. Did you take that into account when you built it?

This was my first thought too!

-j

charlielaub

04-06-2011, 11:16 AM

Here are a couple of thoughts for you:

Did you ever measure the driver's Thiele-Small Parameters before designing and building the box, and did you measure the impedance curve to check for the port tuning after you built the box? Your design could be way off as a result of variation in driver parameters. This would be part of the "measure twice" philosophy...

I think you might be on to something regarding your line level issue. I have a Behringer EP2500. For a while I was using it to power an infinite baffle, in-wall sub and it WAS pretty amazing that is wasn't much louder, and that was with a driver that had 90dB/W sensitivity. The Rolls unit that you show should work to increase the input level.

-Charlie

Brian Steele

04-06-2011, 12:08 PM

Any suggestions you guys could offer?

If you can afford all of that, I suggest getting a WT3 too and confirming that the box tuning matches what your design requirements. It's one of the best tools you can have in your audio toolkit.

Also, is the that Epic 12 a DVC? If so, are you sure that the two coils are wired in phase? Just checking the obvious...

passexperts

04-06-2011, 12:09 PM

The ports are a bit close to the driver itself, making a virtual acoustic short-circuit - only a WAG, though. I've seen worse.

The subwoofer in my living room doesn't seem loud until you go upstairs. The room has a giant, broadband standing-wave issue that makes it sound much less "loud" than it's designed for. I just live with it...

ericJ

04-06-2011, 12:22 PM

Tricky- IIRC, the listening area was an upstairs area with no wall directly behind the TV/speaker area. You could be losing output based on all that open area.

What's the excursion look like? Is the cone moving a lot? A little?

Good luck.

Pete Schumacher ®

04-06-2011, 12:25 PM

The subwoofer in my living room doesn't seem loud until you go upstairs. The room has a giant, broadband standing-wave issue that makes it sound much less "loud" than it's designed for. I just live with it...

Excellent point.

Where in the room do you have the sub, and where do you listen. You might just be in a null.

Dial in 40Hz and walk around the room, then 50, etc and see what the effects are.

Best place to put a single woofer for most uniform coverage is at a wall midpoint.

Another test is to drive it at 40Hz, and see if you can get full excursion. It's above tuning so it should move pretty freely, and you should have plenty of power on tap to cause at least 1" p-p excursion, which would be quite loud.

LSV8

04-06-2011, 12:33 PM

Download the newest version of system architect if you have not already done so. Then, make sure your DSP settings are correct.

Check input gain, check crossovers and EQ, check output mode, etc. You can also use the white noise gen to test output... the level set on the gen overrides any current in/out gain settings.

Feel free to PM me for email info if you'd like to send your venue/device file for a second opinion.

NickS

04-06-2011, 12:39 PM

Make sure your DSP is off on the Crown amp. I believe you can set the crossover to send lows to channel 1 and highs to channel 2 on that amp.

OldHat

04-06-2011, 12:48 PM

If I were to hazzard a guess...

Are your port tubes the correct length? With dual 4" ports trying to achieve a tuning in the low 20s, I would expect each one to be somewhere around 30" or 40" in length. Perhaps you are tuning quite high in frequency, and hence have a rolled-off low end response.

But perhaps your photo doesn't quite show the whole picture...

Quick test is try plugging one port and see if it sounds better or worse!

OldHat

Brent_S

04-06-2011, 01:17 PM

Instead of wildly guessing, we need more data. In simplest form, you need an SPL meter and a test tone source. Play the test tones and measure the output. Subjectively determining output of a sub is kind of tough. It's not uncommon when moving to a low distortion driver to think it has less output compared to a higher distortion unit, only to find out it's really producing quite a bit more when measured.

You don't mention your receiver model, but it's highly unlikely it can't produce more than the 1.4v needed by the Crown. S&V includes maximum unclipped output from the sub pre-out as part of their bench tests. I don't recall seeing any measure lower than 4.x volts in recent years. Most are probably in the 5-6v range, while the last few generations of Onkyos have been capable of 8ish volts! IOW, check the configuration of your Crown, especially the gain/attenuators...if they're dialed low enough, even one of the 8v capable Onkyos couldn't drive it very hard...suggest running them full up. RCA to XLR cable adapters have also been known to cause issues; not sure how to test except swapping cables and relying on QC that you don't get two bad cables in a row (DMM might be a reasonable test for voltage drop as well).

-Brent

penngray

04-06-2011, 01:34 PM

FWIW, The one Xti 1000 was measured

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13869426#post13869426

and @ 4 ohms it did not have much power at 20Hz. It could have been a flawed amp but who knows.

Other then that, there has been several cases where a Samson s-convert was needed to increase the voltage enough to run the (+10dBU) 1.4V sensitivity pro amps.

TrickyMike

04-06-2011, 01:55 PM

Thanks for all of the help, guys.

I only have a few minutes to respond right now... I'll try to fill in any answers to your questions when I have a little more time today or tomorrow.

The connections are 14ga with Speakon terminals (soldered to the spades on the chassis mount, so I'm thinking they're good there...

The WinISD model was indeed based on the spec sheet provided with the driver, not an actual measurement, so there's certainly the possibility for some error there. The suggestion of actually measuring the driver with the appropriate tools is a good one and is duly noted. I"m never against more tools!

The ports are about 36" long each... again based on the WinISD model (for better or worse). The build thread that I started is here if interested... shows some room layout as well... just enough to give you an idea. I did pull the amp out of the rack and run the sub in three different rooms... my shop (large square, 10" ceiling) our little rectangular office and the living area you can see in the build thread pics

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=223997

No real discernable difference (a little tiny bit, but no "oooooh, there's my problem" moments).

DSP is off on the crown amp (that's good thinking there). I couldn't seem to find it's built in limiter functionality in the menus, so there's some potential there. I'll be re-setting to factory defaults tonight. System Architect doesn't work on our Mac, so my wife's bringing her work PC laptop home as well. Maybe something to discover there.

The receiver is a few year old Onkyo TSXR-605 (I believe... can confirm that later)

I do have an SPL meter, but we only use it to test race exhaust on the motorcycles for the tracks that care about noise. I can dig it out, though...

Thanks again guys. I appreciate all of the help. Sorry for the questions I'm overlooking now (and for the scattered response here)... I'll revisit the thread as soon as I can...

lunchmoney

04-06-2011, 02:17 PM

Another obvious one to check off the list:

Is the sub output on the Onkyo set very low?

Johnnycat

04-06-2011, 02:36 PM

One other setting on your receiver is to make sure that in the speaker setting the front speakers are set to small.

scottsehlin

04-06-2011, 02:49 PM

There have been many good suggestions, and many possibilities uncovered. You might just want to do a few simple tests so you know where to focus (AV receiver, sub amp, or sub itself). You could try hooking a source (CD/DVD player) directly to your sub amp. Play something you know has deep bass content and see if you have an aha moment. If not, try hooking your sub up as a main speaker for your AV receiver (setting main speakers as "large") and play the same thing. After those two tests, you should a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't.

Steve Henry

04-06-2011, 03:35 PM

TrickyMike

04-06-2011, 03:53 PM

From your earlier build pics, I still can't help but think there may be a volume problem. Two 4 inch ports - 36 inches long take up a lot of volume - over 900 cu in. What was the gross box volume that you designed?

They do indeed... I used boxnotes and the web-based calculators (on hometheatershack?) to come up with the volume that the ports and bracing would take up and shifted the internal volume to compensate. (I based my port numbers on what I could gather about the outside diameter of the tubes for what it's worth). If my numbers were correct I should have ended up with about 2.8cu ft after ports and bracing. I'll have to punch those numbers into boxnotes again, but IIRC I started with 3.6 cu ft(??) WinISD showed a pretty flat response for a box of that volume (2.8) tuned to 25Hz with two 4" ports at 36" each. (just checked my WinISD file... it's 25, not the 24 that I had mentioned in the first post). Now, granted I could have botched a part of the process or the calculations themselves. I can always rebuild the box... or even make a quick and dirty sealed version just to test with. At least I might rule some stuff out?

I keep finding myself coming back to the amp. I ran a full-frequency signal to the sub from two older recievers... one a Kenwood from the early 90's with a claimed 80W and another Denon from the same era with unknown wattage maybe 100W? It was driving a pair of vintage AR-3A's that were given to me (nice gift).

Anyway... I got basically the same output from these small 80-100W receivers sending the sub the same program material from the same sources. I just keep thinking I can't be getting the power out of the Crown, be it a level problem or some other amp "issue."

ligs

04-06-2011, 04:04 PM

is your problem an overall lack of output or just not much low bass as you expected?

TrickyMike

04-06-2011, 05:02 PM

XtremeRevolution

04-06-2011, 05:43 PM

overall output... so much so that when I first connected the sub/amp to the LF channel on my HT receiver I pulled everything apart trying to figure out why it wasn't getting signal. Turns out it was... just barely audible. Granted it was at a low, typical TV listening level, but my head was 18 inches away from the sub with the gain on the amp all the way up and you could hardly tell it was on.

Yeah you have a problem with a lack of power there. Apparently that crown amp only delivers 90W @ 4 ohms. I tested my QSC GX3 amp last night which is rated for 425W x 2 (or 500W x 1 if only one channel is used) @ 4 ohms RMS @ 1KHZ in an old 300W 12" sealed car sub and it made a painting fall off the wall.

lunchmoney

04-06-2011, 05:47 PM

overall output... so much so that when I first connected the sub/amp to the LF channel on my HT receiver I pulled everything apart trying to figure out why it wasn't getting signal. Turns out it was... just barely audible. Granted it was at a low, typical TV listening level, but my head was 18 inches away from the sub with the gain on the amp all the way up and you could hardly tell it was on.

That is so bad that I find it hard to believe it's due to improper cabinet volume or port geometry.

Are you sure that the amp is working properly? Have you tried hooking it up to a different sub?

ligs

04-06-2011, 06:04 PM

I would reexamine the wiring to be sure. It is fairly easy to mess up the connections of twin 2 ohm coils.

TrickyMike

04-06-2011, 06:18 PM

That is so bad that I find it hard to believe it's due to improper cabinet volume or port geometry.

Are you sure that the amp is working properly? Have you tried hooking it up to a different sub?

My thoughts exactly... I don't really have any other high power handling speakers to test with, though... nor do I have a known good amplifier to power the sub with. I used to have a Crown XLS 602 600W amp that would blow you out of the room. That was *supposed to be what I was going to use to drive the subs before it bought the farm. It would be nice to just power this sub with that amp as it was a known quantity. This XTI is a total unknown... fresh out of the box.

The plot thickens, though... I think the LF channel level coming out of the receiver is reeeeeeeeeeal low... To be honest, it's probably one of a number of issues, but here's what I just did:

I ran the LF channel into my Rane mixer (previously I had only tried it direct to the amp). I turned the LF channel level all the way up on the HT receiver and then gradually brought the gain on the mixer up... it's not even until I get the fader, gain AND master all the way up before I get into the meat of the signal LEDs on the mixer... and that's really only with the HT receiver volume up in the 60's... Once I got the signal good on the mixer I brought the level on the amp up and it started to behave a lot more like a sub with a few hundred watts getting to it. I wouldn't say it was an unquestionable 800, but it definitely started to shake the house a bit.

I do admit I'm a little put off by what I'm hearing and seeing in the provided link about this amp. I had great luck with that XLS 602 over the course of a few years and I bought the thing used... it looked like it had seen a bunch of road miles.

This is probably a big can of worms, but would I be better off ditching this amp for something like a QSC?

On the plus side the sub did sound great once it got going :D

XtremeRevolution

04-06-2011, 06:24 PM

My thoughts exactly... I don't really have any other high power handling speakers to test with, though... nor do I have a known good amplifier to power the sub with. I used to have a Crown XLS 602 600W amp that would blow you out of the room. That was *supposed to be what I was going to use to drive the subs before it bought the farm. It would be nice to just power this sub with that amp as it was a known quantity. This XTI is a total unknown... fresh out of the box.

The plot thickens, though... I think the LF channel level coming out of the receiver is reeeeeeeeeeal low... To be honest, it's probably one of a number of issues, but here's what I just did:

I ran the LF channel into my Rane mixer (previously I had only tried it direct to the amp). I turned the LF channel level all the way up on the HT receiver and then gradually brought the gain on the mixer up... it's not even until I get the fader, gain AND master all the way up before I get into the meat of the signal LEDs on the mixer... and that's really only with the HT receiver volume up in the 60's... Once I got the signal good on the mixer I brought the level on the amp up and it started to behave a lot more like a sub with a few hundred watts getting to it. I wouldn't say it was an unquestionable 800, but it definitely started to shake the house a bit.

I do admit I'm a little put off by what I'm hearing and seeing in the provided link about this amp. I had great luck with that XLS 602 over the course of a few years and I bought the thing used... it looked like it had seen a bunch of road miles.

This is probably a big can of worms, but would I be better off ditching this amp for something like a QSC?

On the plus side the sub did sound great once it got going :D

Honestly, based on the tests I saw of that amp on the link provided earlier, I'd drop it like its hot. I seriously doubt it has the ability to play a full 800W RMS.

Here's another thing to try. Disconnect all your speakers or disable their output on the receiver, and crank that receiver up real high. That should send a nice hearty LFE signal and allow you to gauge whether or not that amp is really giving you the power you need. Do you have a clipping indicator on that amp?

ligs

04-06-2011, 06:30 PM

Have you tried to drive your sub with right channel of the receiver and your regular speaker with your left channel of the receiver. This way you can tell if your sub is working normally.

passexperts

04-06-2011, 06:37 PM

The amp has input level indicators on the front. If they're capable of bumping "into the red", then the problem isn't with your source...

TrickyMike

04-06-2011, 06:41 PM

Honestly, based on the tests I saw of that amp on the link provided earlier, I'd drop it like its hot. I seriously doubt it has the ability to play a full 800W RMS.

Here's another thing to try. Disconnect all your speakers or disable their output on the receiver, and crank that receiver up real high. That should send a nice hearty LFE signal and allow you to gauge whether or not that amp is really giving you the power you need. Do you have a clipping indicator on that amp?

Yeah, it's got a clip indicator... haven't seen it light up no matter what I throw at it. The Rane test with the gain all the way up at least gets me close... Internal limiters off, no DSP, etc... I might wait to see what that little level adjusting DI that I ordered from B&H will do. It should show on Friday.

GranteedEV

04-06-2011, 07:00 PM

The tc sounds driver you're using probably has low distortion. All you're hearing is the fundamental.

The fundamental of the lowest bass frequencies is very difficult for us to actually hear or even perceive as loud. Our perception of loudness is often dictated by the subwoofer's harmonic distortion. Sometimes people don't like low distortion subs.

I don't know for sure about the epic, but that's what I would guess about an LMS at least.

Other random theories

- your mains are out of phase with the sub causing a cancelation near the crossover point due to placement and timing.

- in conjuntion with low subwoofer distortion, your mains are what's lacking output in the mid / upper bass.

Wolf

04-06-2011, 07:40 PM

You got a VOM?

Check AC voltage out on the LFE jack at normal level output on the receiver with a pink-noise/FM-static track being played. If you average about 1V, you need the extra gain.

Later,
Wolf

LSV8

04-06-2011, 09:17 PM

You absolutely need to check settings in System Architect. I did not realize that this is a fresh from the box amp and that you have never checked the device file. If you do not have access to a PC, you can run a Windows emulator on your Mac.

It is HIGHLY likely that you will find the input levels turned WAY down. (These levels are independent of the two front panel knobs). I have never had an issue powering subs with XTi amps, despite the low power myths floating around the forums from the one amplifier tested.

More importantly, the device view in System Architect will show you bar meters for input AND output. Much more accurate than the signal/clip LEDs on the panel.

Jeff B.

04-06-2011, 09:29 PM

I would reexamine the wiring to be sure. It is fairly easy to mess up the connections of twin 2 ohm coils.

When I read the earlier comments my initial thoughts were that his amp had a subsonic filter built into it, so it didn't have much output in the low 20Hz range. However, based on what he is saying now, about very little output with the gain turned all of the way up, I would look very closely at how those voice coils are wired.

For two 2 Ohm coils to be wired in series so that you have a 4 Ohm load and both coils are in phase you need to run the a wire from the + input to the positive terminal on one voice coil. Then from the negative terminal of that voice coil run a wire to the positive terminal of the other voice coil, and finally from the negative terminal for the second voice coil run to the - input.

Input + to + VC1 - to + vC2 - to Input -

He needs to make sure he didn't flip the connections on the second voice coil and make them out of phase.

Jeff B.

ckmoore

04-06-2011, 09:37 PM

From your earlier build pics, I still can't help but think there may be a volume problem. Two 4 inch ports - 36 inches long take up a lot of volume - over 900 cu in. What was the gross box volume that you designed?

That box does seem to be undersized considering the volume those ports are displacing... but that is an uncalibrated eyeball... :)

ligs

04-06-2011, 09:47 PM

When I read the earlier comments my initial thoughts were that his amp had a subsonic filter built into it, so it didn't have much output in the low 20Hz range. However, based on what he is saying now, about very little output with the gain turned all of the way up, I would look very closely at how those voice coils are wired.

For two 2 Ohm coils to be wired in series so that you have a 4 Ohm load and both coils are in phase you need to run the a wire from the + input to the positive terminal on one voice coil. Then from the negative terminal of that voice coil run a wire to the positive terminal of the other voice coil, and finally from the negative terminal for the second voice coil run to the - input.

Input + to + VC1 - to + vC2 - to Input -

He needs to make sure he didn't flip the connections on the second voice coil and make them out of phase.

Jeff B.

That is why I suggested him test the subwoofer through the receiver using full range signal. If the subwofer is wired correctly he should be able to get pretty loud even for 86 db sensitivity.

TrickyMike

04-07-2011, 08:46 AM

Thanks again for all the advice guys.

pulled the driver out to confirm the wiring last night... It's good. Double-checked the Speakon cables as well.

I *think* I just have a really low level coming out of that LF channel. I do still need to look at System Architect (Thanks, LSV8) but when I finally got that mixer in between the HT receiver and the amp, reset factory defaults and turned DSP off things really came to life. Having the mixer in the middle let me watch the level LEDs and see that it really wasn't getting much until I really ran all knobs and faders at eleven... The amp was just working with what little it was being given. I had to crank the fader, gain and master on the mixer to get there but once I did the sub would pretty much walk across the floor, shake the windows, scare the dog, make my wife question my sanity (and hers for marrying me) and generally just behave and sound much more like it should. If I ran the RCA straight into the amp I was back in the land of weak sauce. I was using a Dayton RCA-XLR adapter to do that, though, something I'm never fond of doing. I didn't have any male XLR ends to make my own replacement as a test, but it would be moot anyway as I just plan to run that litte level-boosting DI box ( which is on a UPS truck for delivery as I type), so I'm hoping that just settles it.

Once everything was settled (temporarily at least, in a sufficient mickey mouse duct tape, zip-tie and bubble gum fashion) I did spend an hour or so listening. Sounds really, really good. REALLY good. Everything from Blu-Ray HT stuff to several different genres of music really started to shine. I played a bunch of music that I was really familiar with and the sub sounded pretty flat... much more so than the JBL it replaced which I always felt colored the sound a bit much. It was most apparent on music that I was really familiar with, have spent time listening to on studio monitors, etc. The new sub can definitely go a lot lower, but it also had a tighter, more accurate sound without a hint of port noise. I think once the wrinkles get ironed out and I have a few minutes to recalibrate the HT receiver settings I'm going to be really happy with this... actually not "this.." these... did I mention I'm building two? :D

XtremeRevolution

04-07-2011, 11:26 AM

I've always wanted to do that. Two gargantuan subs in a home theater. Sounded like a great idea, till I realized how impractical it was to have to secure everything that can rattle off of any surface, be it vases, china, paintings on my wall, etc. You can get away with enormous amounts of SPL in a car, but in a home, you better be buying a lot of non-skid mats.

Brent_S

04-07-2011, 01:20 PM

{snip}
The receiver is a few year old Onkyo TSXR-605 (I believe... can confirm that later){snip}

S&V benched the sub out on the 605 (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tests-reviews/receivers/1988/12/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr605-av-receiver)at 7.4v before clipping, the same as its bigger brother TX-SR875 (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tests-reviews/receivers/1988/09/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver) from the same design gen. The next generation 706 did 9.2v. One can take a look at earlier and later Onkyo tests and see the output design philosophy appears to be consistent across models and years.
(http://www.cross-spectrum.com/)
-Brent

TrickyMike

04-08-2011, 08:25 AM

Just a quick update... Adding that DI box in between the HT receiver and the amp made all the difference in the world. It really just got everything performing the way it should, but as an added benefit I now have direct control of the signal level going to the subs (in addition to the level control that the HT receiver provides). Since there's enough room on one of the rack shelves I'm going to mount it with access to the gain knob. Instant quick access to the level of boom in the room! Going to see if I can get sub #2 built this weekend.

johnastockman

04-08-2011, 03:39 PM

They do indeed... I used boxnotes and the web-based calculators (on hometheatershack?) to come up with the volume that the ports and bracing would take up and shifted the internal volume to compensate. (I based my port numbers on what I could gather about the outside diameter of the tubes for what it's worth). If my numbers were correct I should have ended up with about 2.8cu ft after ports and bracing. I'll have to punch those numbers into boxnotes again, but IIRC I started with 3.6 cu ft(??) WinISD showed a pretty flat response for a box of that volume (2.8) tuned to 25Hz with two 4" ports at 36" each. (just checked my WinISD file... it's 25, not the 24 that I had mentioned in the first post). Now, granted I could have botched a part of the process or the calculations themselves. I can always rebuild the box... or even make a quick and dirty sealed version just to test with. At least I might rule some stuff out?

I keep finding myself coming back to the amp. I ran a full-frequency signal to the sub from two older recievers... one a Kenwood from the early 90's with a claimed 80W and another Denon from the same era with unknown wattage maybe 100W? It was driving a pair of vintage AR-3A's that were given to me (nice gift).

Anyway... I got basically the same output from these small 80-100W receivers sending the sub the same program material from the same sources. I just keep thinking I can't be getting the power out of the Crown, be it a level problem or some other amp "issue."

Me too on the typo's...type once, check 3-4 times. Kinda like I build a speaker box. Very important to use grammer and spelling correctly, but that's just me. Nice avatar! I race a little club stuff on a cafe'd Yamaha SR500 around the NW, mostly Seattle and Portland. I'm the only oxy-moronic handicapped motorcyclist/racer around these parts, but I've had to curtail my activities lately because my disability is getting worse...a genetic collagen defect has destroyed the cartilege & soft tissue in and around all my joints. Sorry, a little OT, but that cabinet looks good. Sounds like you have it narrowed to the amp. Let us know how it turns out and what you eventually come up with. Any more projects in the works?

John A.

TrickyMike

04-08-2011, 06:58 PM

johnastockman

04-12-2011, 02:24 PM

Thanks John,
I do love the cafe stuff. A good friend in NYC had a nicely restored Norton Commando that I fell in love with. The look, feel... and sound... Man, the sound of that thing! I'd love to build one someday. I've ridden tracks with a bunch of the vintage guys. Great group there. One of the most inviting communities I've come across. "Community" is even short-selling it a little bit. "Family" sounds more appropriate. Sorry to hear you've had to curtail some of you racing. It's not an easy addiction to walk away from, huh? :(

No, it's not. I've never known any physical freedom, but my motorcycle(s) have allowed me to experience it, something that I'd never have known otherwise. It's been a hard road, since my hip joints fused together around age 13 in 1970. Between 1980 and 1983, I endured 3 hip replacement surgeries so I could get back on a motorcycle and continue my family's tradition of motorcycling excellence and accomplishment. I had 3 more hip replacement surgeries from '86 to '93 so I could keep riding...not because of any accidents, just the cement they used to fix the implants would deteriorate after a few years. Now I have cement-less implants and no more replacement worries. My family has been riding since the early 1900's, with my grandfather's older brother, Ralph H. riding for the original "Wrecking Crew" Indian factory board-track racing team. My grandpa's first bike was a Thor and he rode his 1939 Indian Chief up until his death from cancer in 1983. Everyone in my family rode, aunts, uncles, great-uncles & aunts, cousins, male & female. I got my first street bike in '83 (Kawasaki KZ250LTD) after the hip surgeries and painful physical therapy to get my atrophied leg muscles to work again. Now I've accumulated over 300,000 accident-free miles on my various street bikes, not including the track miles and the dirt biking I did as a kid before the hips fused. I've always been a proponent of proper motorcycle training and wearing all-the-gear-all-the-time. I practice every month at a local high-school parking lot on Sunday mornings and take a refresher training course/track day every year. I just wish I could find a suitable replacement for motorcycling, but as yet, nothing in sight. I always knew this insidious affliction would cut my riding career short, but I didn't have a plan regarding what I would do when that happened. Fortunately, like you said, I have a huge "family" of motorcyclists (not bikers) to bench race with and many photos of my family and I enjoying our bikes through the years. And music/speaker-building with a great "family" here at Tech Talk also. Thanks for your kind words.

John A.

killa

04-12-2011, 05:36 PM