Laminating hardwood and masonite for cabinet walls

[50 watt head]

There are a number of current thread discussions that involve laminating cabinet wall materials, as well as using hardwood as an alternative to MDF. Rather than post several questions on different threads, I'll just start a new thread for a specific idea I've been wondering about.

I love woodworking, but I absolutely detest working with MDF. It's nasty, dirty, and the dust gives me a headache even when I work outdoors and wear a mask (allergy?) So, I'm very interested in finding a viable alternative.

Masonite (HDF) on the other hand doesn't seem to be quite as nasty to work with. So I was thinking of laminating 1/4" masonite and 3/4" hardwood (such as poplar or pine). The masonite would be the cabinet interior, and the hardwood would make a nice-looking easy-to-finish exterior.

Any thoughts? Has anyone tried this before? Would the interior masonite confer any benefit over using hardwood alone?

[mattk]

I'd worry about differences in expansion/contraction.

[djg]

The hdf might help stabilize the hardwood, but if the hardwood wants to do its thing, it might just overpower the adhesive.

[davepellegrene]

I'm not sure there is much difference from MDF to HDF other then one is high density and the other medium density. 1/4" obviously will make less dust when cutting then 3/4".
Coming from a carpenters point of view the problem you will have with laminating hardwood to Masonite or MDF is that hardwood expands mostly in the width of the material and not much in the length. MDF and I assume HDF expands in the thickness and not very much in the width/ length. If you laminate the two materials together with say wood glue there will be no room for the hardwood to expand/ contract. In a box the results will be when the hardwood shrinks it will eventually crack because it isn't being allowed to become smaller then the HDF. If laminated in individual panels you take the risk of the wood expanding causing a cup in the panel or contracting causing a cup in the other direction in the panel. This is not an issue if you get the panels put together before it happens.
None of this is much of an issue in panels under about 6" wide. This is dependent on the extremes of humidity/ dryness in the air.

From my limited experience I have found the smaller the box the less of an issue the material it's made from matters. When you get into the larger boxes is when it becomes an issue. It does seem to make a difference in whatever material you are laminating together to get a good bond between the two materials. So I would think it best if your laminating unlike materials together to use a glue that will allow movement. I've been told green glue is the best. I haven't come off the money to try it. I've only seen it by the case. That's what brought me to rubber roofing material. I can buy enough to cover 4 pcs 4x8 sheets for $60.

With hardwood I think good bracing is going to go the farthest for the amount of work.

Hope that helped
Dave

[bobbarkto]

It's usually not a good idea to laminate solid wood to one side of a man made panel of any type. Solid wood will always move with changes in RH.

Exceptions:
Thin veneer.
Laminating solid wood to both sides using the same thickness of wood on both sides. But then you have to take the relative coefficient of expansion of each material into account. Wood that moves a lot compared to the substrate is not a good idea.

Any time you go over about 1/16" in thickness for the real wood you start to increase the probability that something will let loose.
In order of probability: Usually the wood splits. Sometmes the glue lets go. Sometimes everything goes "bang" all at once.
Sometimes you can get lucky and nothing will happen.
The wider the wood the more likely a bad thing will happen.

About the sonic or mechanical benefit... I doubt there is much unless you use the two materials in a constrained layer sort of construction. But 1/4" hdf is not going to be a structural component, only a lining. Your basic structure will be the thick hardwood. Now you're building a challenge... a solid wood closed box.

<didn't mean to step on your post, Dave>

[davepellegrene]

It's usually not a good idea to laminate solid wood to one side of a man made panel of any type. Solid wood will always move with changes in RH.

Exceptions:
Thin veneer.
Laminating solid wood to both sides using the same thickness of wood on both sides. But then you have to take the relative coefficient of expansion of each material into account. Wood that moves a lot compared to the substrate is not a good idea.

Any time you go over about 1/16" in thickness for the real wood you start to increase the probability that something will let loose.
In order of probability: Usually the wood splits. Sometmes the glue lets go. Sometimes everything goes "bang" all at once.
Sometimes you can get lucky and nothing will happen.
The wider the wood the more likely a bad thing will happen.

About the sonic or mechanical benefit... I doubt there is much unless you use the two materials in a constrained layer sort of construction. But 1/4" hdf is not going to be a structural component, only a lining. Your basic structure will be the thick hardwood. Now you're building a challenge... a solid wood closed box.

<didn't mean to step on your post, Dave>

I think we pretty much said the same thing. You just do it so much more intelligently. Always like to read your posts and learn.

Dave

[frugala]

I only build with hardwood. I've mulled over a very similar setup - lining hardwood because I detest MDF. Have not done it, partly out of concerns over wood movement and partly as a result of not needing to; I haven't built over a 1/2 cf cabinet. One cf boxes are in my future.

As already pointed out, the issue is really all about box size. I'm very selective about what I use; only hardwood that is low movement and high density. QS sycamore is spectacular wood for this, but hard to find.

Pine is a low movement wood, but pretty resonant. If you are building relatively small boxes, I'd expect you would be ok with good cross bracing. My GUESS would be that if you lined it with masonite and the wood expanded too much, that the masonite would pull apart. But there is the risk that your wood would cup instead. I guess you'll never really know until you try. Maybe test by glueing the masonite to a piece of pine in humidity controlled environment, then really let it suck up some humidity.

[bobbarkto]

(didn't see your post when i hit reply)

Your post was more intelligible, more human. :p

As to the dust, IME HDF produces some greater amount of larger particles than MDF, but the total amount of dust produced is always the same given the same saw/blade. Both are nasty at any rate.





I think we pretty much said the same thing. You just do it so much more intelligently. Always like to read your posts and learn.

Dave

[fastbike1]

So you dislike Baltic Birch ply?



There are a number of current thread discussions that involve laminating cabinet wall materials, as well as using hardwood as an alternative to MDF. Rather than post several questions on different threads, I'll just start a new thread for a specific idea I've been wondering about.

I love woodworking, but I absolutely detest working with MDF. It's nasty, dirty, and the dust gives me a headache even when I work outdoors and wear a mask (allergy?) So, I'm very interested in finding a viable alternative.

Masonite (HDF) on the other hand doesn't seem to be quite as nasty to work with. So I was thinking of laminating 1/4" masonite and 3/4" hardwood (such as poplar or pine). The masonite would be the cabinet interior, and the hardwood would make a nice-looking easy-to-finish exterior.

Any thoughts? Has anyone tried this before? Would the interior masonite confer any benefit over using hardwood alone?

[50 watt head]

So you dislike Baltic Birch ply?

No, I don't mind working with plywood ... in this case, though, I was restricting my question to hardwood in order to simplify the exterior finish. Given how non-feasible my idea turned out to be, though, plywood is sounding like a good way to go :)

Thanks to everyone above for your input and advice.

[tomzarbo]

I think the plywood/MDF or HDF lamination idea is better than solid wood to MDF, etc. Plywod will expand very little length- and width-wise, it would be a good match to MDF or HDF.

TomZ

[LouC]

No, I don't mind working with plywood ... in this case, though, I was restricting my question to hardwood in order to simplify the exterior finish. Given how non-feasible my idea turned out to be, though, plywood is sounding like a good way to go :)

Thanks to everyone above for your input and advice.

While the quality of Baltic Birch in So AZ has gone down (more footballs), it's not that much more $$. It can be finished directly, depending on the look you want. IMHO, 1/2" BB = 3/4" MDF for purposes of cabinet construction.

[PWR RYD]

I'm getting pretty tired of working with MDF as well. I think my next project will be BB ply. Do they sell it at The Home Depot?

[fastbike1]

Also getting more difficult to get hardwood wide enough to do more than baffles. If you are going to put planks together to get the sides deep enough, that's more work and frustration than veneering.

In my experience, plywood edges are easier than mdf to deal with for painting as well.

[fastbike1]

No. The 2x4 handipanels are multi-ply. 11 to 13 depending on how you count the outer skins. They work well enough if you can't find/don't want to pay for BB. My local HD has some 3/4 ply with 9 plys that works pretty well and is $25 for a 4x8 sheet. So far haven't found much voiding on edges.

Most lumberyards have BB as well. Lots of things are called Baltic Birch these days that only use Birch for the outer layers. Much of the Russian BB uses poplar cores, which can still be ok. Much of the Chinese seems to use some mystery core that some call "weeds".

The true BB is almost exclusively from Finland and uses all birch core and veneer.


I'm getting pretty tired of working with MDF as well. I think my next project will be BB ply. Do they sell it at The Home Depot?

[PWR RYD]

So this would be a poor choice?

http://www.homedepot.com/Lumber-Composites-Plywood-Sheathing-Subfloor-Plywood-Hardwood-Plywood/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbu0h/R-100077837/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Unfortunately even though I live in a city of about 200,000 we only have the typical Home Depot, Lowes, and Menards. I am not sure how for I would have to drive to find a real lumber yard :( There is a place in town called Aetna Plywood:

http://www.aetnaplywood.com/

But it says they are wholesale only.

[fastbike1]

It is to me. I stay away from the 5 ply stuff. You might give the wholesaler a call, they still might deal with you.



So this would be a poor choice?

http://www.homedepot.com/Lumber-Composites-Plywood-Sheathing-Subfloor-Plywood-Hardwood-Plywood/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbu0h/R-100077837/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Unfortunately even though I live in a city of about 200,000 we only have the typical Home Depot, Lowes, and Menards. I am not sure how for I would have to drive to find a real lumber yard :( There is a place in town called Aetna Plywood:

http://www.aetnaplywood.com/

But it says they are wholesale only.

[djg]

I'm getting pretty tired of working with MDF as well. I think my next project will be BB ply. Do they sell it at The Home Depot?


Rockford. Is there a Menards around you? They are all over Wisconsin. They have pretty decent BB, and the best big retail store plywood selection around my neighborhood, Hudson, Wi. HD and Lowes ply sucks around here, except for Arauco ply, which Lowes and Menards carry.

[PWR RYD]

Yes we have two Menards. I will check them out and see what they have for BB.

[davepellegrene]

Yes we have two Menards. I will check them out and see what they have for BB.

If you go up to the Pro Desk at HD you may be able to order what your looking for.
Dave

[frugala]

Also getting more difficult to get hardwood wide enough to do more than baffles. If you are going to put planks together to get the sides deep enough, that's more work and frustration than veneering.

Absolutely agreed. As soon as I have to join boards, I'll build with BB instead.

Having a good hardwood lumber specialist is the key. HD and Lowes are useless for hardwood; red oak has poor stability. I can routinely get 10-11" boards of several varieties. Anything bigger is usually exotic tropical wood, and expensive. I tend to build small and sometimes go with width as the larger I.D. instead of depth.

To 50 Watt Head I'd just say that building with hardwood is viable if it is what you really want to do. Using the right wood and building modest size boxes, only soundproofing materials needed. BUT, BB is the practical and logical way to go. I just have to do things my way...

Regarding the earlier point about building a solid wood closed box - that is not necessarily the case. Using solid wood for the sides, top and bottom results in a structure that is dimensionally stable at the points where it is joined. The dimension where it will vary most is depth, which will tend to be much more uniform for the entire structure. A more stable material can be used for the baffle and back. One of these pieces is usually removable anyway, and does not require an ultra tight fit to the sides, allowing for expansion room.

[PWR RYD]

Rockford. Is there a Menards around you? They are all over Wisconsin. They have pretty decent BB, and the best big retail store plywood selection around my neighborhood, Hudson, Wi. HD and Lowes ply sucks around here, except for Arauco ply, which Lowes and Menards carry.

Thanks for the heads up! I went to Menards at lunch today and they have a full stack of 4' x 8' x 3/4" baltic birch 13 layer ply. I only looked at the top piece but it has zero football patches and no edge voids. It was however $74.95 per sheet :eek:

[Soundslike]

Phil,
Baltic birch is sold at a couple of places in Chandler and Tempe.

Tempe
645 W. Elliot Rd
Tempe, AZ 85284
480-355-5090
Fax: 480-355-5093
Toll Free: 800-713-5058
Email: tempe@woodworkerssource.com

Woodcraft of Phoenix
3002 North Arizona Ave.
Suite 12
Chandler, AZ 85225
480-539-9663

Ron

[50 watt head]

Thanks, everyone, for the replies and advice.

It was especially interesting to hear (from Lou) that BB might even represent a step up in quality from MDF.