The Copper: need new tweet, xover, other buiders opinions.

[Interlochen2]

Fellow Copper builders...

What is your assessment of this design?

Have you, for example, felt the need to change tweeters and/or modify the xover?

[djg]

Welcome to TechTalk. You know, too much sax can be fatiguing.:D

Edited into meaninglessness.:(

[PWR RYD]

Is it possible that there has been a revision in either of the drivers? Or possibly that one of the drivers you have is a dud or on its way to failure?

[Interlochen2]

Is it possible that there has been a revision in either of the drivers? Or possibly that one of the drivers you have is a dud or on its way to failure?

I've got 3 tweeters and 4 midwoofs. Not much difference.

[Wolf]

Fellow Copper builders...

What is your assessment of this design?

Have you, for example, felt the need to change tweeters and/or modify the xover?

What is the problem?
Wolf

[Chris Roemer]

I've got 3 tweeters and 4 midwoofs. Not much difference.

I think they took 1st in their class, about 2 years ago? And if they were in the same venue as last year (which I'm pretty sure they were), it was a 400 seat college theater.

Any chance it could be you?

Chris

[Pete Schumacher ®]

It's yours now. I'd say don't change woofer or tweeter, but change the voicing to your taste.

Also, what's the venue like where you have these playing? Bare floors and reflective walls? Or plush and absorptive? Those things have a HUGE impact on the sound you'll get from most any speaker.

No one hears with your ears but you, so tweak away, and bring them to a DIY and give us all a listen to your modified version.

[Interlochen2]

The problem, best I can tell, is in the hi-pass xover section, tweeter or a combo there of. Lots of lumps it sounds like, leaping piano notes, sax recordings sounding fluid and supple then quite obviously blaring on specific notes.

My reference speaker for xover tweaking I've done is the Ellis 1801b. The Copper's bass to lower-ish midrange is superior, but on up the spectrum falls way short in terms of smoothness, transparancy, harmonic rendering, etc.

Now, Of course the 1801b uses drivers of a higher caliber. I don't expect sonic duplication, but there have been hints on certain material that do not excite the problem areas, suggesting the Copper is much more capable than its stock form. Tuck and Patty is an example, but symphonic and big band material....pretty bad. Fatiguing.

Playing with the Hi-pass input cap - going from 10 to 6 uF - and changing the Lpad to 4 and 8 instead of 4 and 3 ohms generally produces a better result (I know that doesn't result in the correct Z), for example. Scads of hours tweaking cables, tubes, you name it - but mostly xover caps and Lpad values.

I'm a cabinet builder with limited xover knowledge. I'm 52 and my hearing quites at 12k, Plush but well known sonic environment. [Clayton S100 amp, Hillig tube pre, computer front end, various dacs.]

Well, it's extremly difficult to explain what I'm hearing. I know that I don't care for this tweeter. I highly suspect its disperion characteristics. Standing up produces quite audible changes. Check out Vifas PDF FR - no off-axis plots.

Anyone have on hand a schematic for filters for the SB29RDCN or Vifa NE25VTS or VTT? My time grows short with these but I guess I'll have to master Jeff's PCD. Should have started months ago. I'd invest in good measurement software and hardware if I had the $$ to spare right now.

The Coppers are a gift for a cross-country friend to whom I owe much. I'm tempted to get the Piccolo or Mandolin kits and put them in a Paul Kittinger TL variant cab. The SB15 actually models well in the Copper cab, but won't have that incredible reach and power of the TB 1685.

This friend selected the Copper. I begged to build another design, but the TB W5-1685 intrigued him. What do you do?

[martyh]

The probleim, best I can tell, is in the hi-pass xover section, tweeter or a combo there of. Lots of lumps it sounds like, leaping piano notes, sax recordings sounding fluid and supple then quite obviously blaring on specific notes.

My reference speaker for xover tweaking I've done is the Ellis 1801b. The Coppers bass to lower-ish midrange is superior, but on up the spectrum falls way short in terms of smothness, transparancy, harmonic rendering, etc.

Now, Of course the 1801b uses drivers of a higher caliber. I don't expect sonic duplication, but there have been hints on certain material that do not not excite the problem areas suggesting the Copper is much more capable than in its stock form. Tuck and Patty is an example, but Symphonic and big band material....pretty bad. Fatiguing.

Playing with the Hi-pass input cap - going from 10 to 6 uF - and changing the Lpad to 4 and 8 instead of 4 and 3 ohms generally produces a better result (I know that doesn't result in the correct Z), for example. Scads of hours tweaking cables, tubes, you name it - but mostly xover caps and Lpad values.

I'm a cabinet builder with limited xover knowledge.


I'm 52 and my hearing quites at 12k, Plush but well known sonic environment.

Well, it's extremly difficult to explain what I'm hearing. I know that I don't care for this tweeter. I highly suspect its disperion chaacteristics. Standing up produces quite audible changes. Check out Vifas PDF FR - no off-axis plots.

Anyone have on hand a schematic for filters for the SB29RDCN or Vifa NE25VTS or VTT? My time grows short with these but I guess I'll have to master Jeff's PCD. Should have started months ago. I'd invest in good measurement software and hardware if I had the $$ to spare right now.

The Coppers are a gift for a cross-country friend to whom I owe much. I'm tempted to get the Piccolo or Mandolin kits and put them in a Paul Kittinger TL variant cab. The SB15 actually models well in the Copper cab, but won't have that incredible reach and power of the TB 1685.

My friend selected the Copper. I begged to build another design, but the TB W5-1685 intrigued him. What do you do?

Interesting thread. I always get a funny feeling when reading about what others think of the Coppers. It's really my first design and have been touched that it brings as much interest and discussion to the community as it has.

The answer to your question 'What do you do?' is You build him the Coppers. That's what friends do.

A couple of observations: The Tang Band will change sonic characteristics as time goes by. That woofer 'muddied' a little over 30-50 hours of play time, however crossover wasn't changed - the stuffing was. Lighten the stuffing by about half an ounce per enclosure to compensate. Figure about 7.5 ounces per.

Much has been written about the little XT tweeter. This is truly an 'It Is What It Is' tweeter - a small faceplated, slightly limited, tweeter. My opinion is that it's a good value and easy to cross, placing it right inline with the design goals. Consider Center-to-Center distance if you change the tweeter.

At this very moment I'm listening to some 15 year old Jackson Browne - his music was always mixed with heavy handed bass - yet the Coppers handle it without sounding bloated. While I know the majority of your concerns focus on the tweeter, managing the Tang Band resolved much of the issues in the 1700-2300hZ range. The crossover was modified slightly from their debut a couple years back and is what you see published here at PE.

As many have written (and I modestly agree) it's worth money. That being said I'd love to hear your take on it - like great jazz I'd get to hear the original melody, a variation on the theme, then come home to the original melody again. Who knows, we might create a new 'song' in the process!

Good Luck!

[violaplayer]

Would reversing the tweeters polarity cause any of the OPs issues? I noticed the polarity is suposed to be reversed in the original design.

[martyh]

Would reversing the tweeters polarity cause any of the OPs issues? I noticed the polarity is suposed to be reversed in the original design.

Nope. It's not reversed, it's normal polarity.

[Interlochen2]

Marty, All,
I tried removing and adding stuffing, but to no avail. I have 4 TBs and have tried all 4 with similar results. The current has about 1000 hrs, another -- ~300 and the remaining 2 are virgin. I had 3 of these measured by a veteran friend with Praxis and you'll not be able to guess which is which from the FR and Z curves.

I also have a system response curve taken with Praxis and nothing peculiar shows up. I'll post the plots tomorrow - almost sack time.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Dave

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

it is quite possible you just dont like them. its not your fault, its not martys fault. it is also quite possible, your friend might like them alot.
i heard these on their deput and fell in love. i have recomended them several times.

[framus]

it is quite possible you just dont like them. its not your fault, its not martys fault. it is also quite possible, your friend might like them alot.
i heard these on their deput and fell in love. i have recomended them several times.

I think I know who is posting the questions and comments, because I did a crossover mod for him. He really didn't like the original one. I listened and thought it was pretty darn good, and was a little worried I was starting down a blind alley. I think I did smooth out the response above 1500 Hz or so, but it required more components than may have been considered proper for the spirit of this design. With the modified crossover, I didn't hear any of the problems the poster is reporting, and don't think there's anything really wrong with the tweeter. I've attached the response of the modified Copper (Snag 49), and the stock (Snag 50).

[Interlochen2]

Let's let this thread die. Infinite thanks to all who constructively replied.

Regards,
Dave