Cheap vs Expensive Electronics

[icor1031]

In your experiences, or in charts you know of, has it made much difference going from cheap electronics to expensive, higher-quality ones?

If you have graphs too, that would be great.

Thanks.


EDIT:

I meant caps, resistors, etc. as used on crossovers.

I did not mean just cost, but included the words "higher-quality."
For a price range, $0.01 to $80.

Basically, is there any real difference between

http://www.claritycap.co.uk/
and
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=015-8

If this is going to start trouble on the forum though, please close the thread.

[fastbike1]

People can help you a lot more if your questions aren't so open ended.

What's cheap to you? What's expensive?

Without that info, the range is <$100 to >$100K.

While we're at it, what are you thinking when you say electronics? Receivers, amps, preamps, DVD, Blu-ray, Turntables, DSP, etc, etc,.

Plus you should have read enough threads to know that this will end up in a flame war between the folks that think that everything is audible and the folks that think that nothing but speakers and rooms matter.

[cjd]

In your experiences, or in charts you know of, has it made much difference going from cheap electronics to expensive, higher-quality ones?

If you have graphs too, that would be great.

Thanks.

Wait. Does it make a difference going to higher quality equipment?

Is this a trick question?

Whether it costs more or not, it can absolutely make a difference.

Does cost indicate higher quality? Definitely not.

[Mark65]

As far as I know, nobody has graphs, but there is a big can of worms over there in the corner....oh, crap looks like you opened it....:eek:

My own opinion is that decent caps are worthwhile, but mostly for the tolerance. I recently designed and built a pair of compact mtm's with all NPE's in the xo, and they sound amazing to me. Would they be better with poly's? I dunno. Maybe. Probably. Not?

Who knows? Not me...:D

Edit: Oh, wait, you meant front end? Never mind.;)



Mark

[johnnyrichards]

http://www.oxfamamericaunwrapped.com/images/P/can_of_worms.jpg

[johnnyrichards]

THAT being said, if anyone this day and age still thinks that audio components pricing in any way reflects quality is probably telling themselves that to justify a purchase at some point.

Whether drivers or caps or amps or transports or DACs - you better be prepared to defend your decision on using something cheap as vehemently as those who bought something expensive.

Like it or not, this board prides itself on being objective but a simple examination of most posts indicates otherwise when it comes to cheaper stuff.

I have said before, it ain't just the audiophiles over "there" that are terrified of taking DBT tests.

Bottom line is to spend a ton of money (you know, because DIY is cheaper) to find the combination of stuff you like. I think you will find diminishing returns kicks in at a lot lower price than some people want to admit.

[Deward Hastings]

I think you will find diminishing returns kicks in at a lot lower price than some people want to admit.Nowhere more true than with amplifiers, where the higher (sound) quality ones are to be found among the least expensive. Beyond a couple hundred dollars all you get is more bling. Which is not to say that there are not some terrible "cheap" amps . . . there are plenty . . . it's just that the best amps are also cheap.

[icor1031]

I meant caps, resistors, etc. as used on crossovers.

I did not mean just cost, but included the words "higher-quality."
For a price range, $0.01 to $80.

Basically, is there any real difference between

http://www.claritycap.co.uk/
and
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=015-8

If this is going to start trouble on the forum though, please close the thread.

[ReissM]

I think you will find diminishing returns kicks in at a lot lower price than some people want to admit.

Very well said. I agree.

IMO, no need for $70,000 vacuum tube amps (Convergent Audio Technology) or $100K+ speakers (Wilson Audio) when you can get very good performance for significantly less $$$.

Many years ago I was in a high-end audio store near Albany, NY. A guy walked in and I heard him say to the salesman..."Show me the most expensive system you have."

I just about fell over. There was no talk of best-bang for the buck, or best quality, deepest bass extension, size of the room, type of music.... NOPE, he just wanted the most expensive equipment in the store.

OK, so maybe I'm jealous. LOL.

But seriously, the point of diminishing returns plays a role in many of my decisions.

[Whitneyville1]

Over on The Vinyl Forum some great angst was caused by attaching a $49.95 cartridge/stylus (Audio Techina AT-95E) to a $36,000 TT in place of a $36,000 cartridge/stylus (Goldring Rosewood XLS). One of the contributors from France I thought was going to have an on-line stroke as he's an owner and proponent (of course) of the $36,000 cartridge. Everything from the tonearm leads to the inter connects to the pre-amp to the power amps to the speaker cables to the speakers were "unfair". Of the hundred-odd people who did the blind test, not one said the little A-T sounded as good as the Goldring; They just said it didn't sound like ****, in fact, 99+% of us when asked, "I have an old TT that hasn't been used in years. What's a good beginner cartridge for my XYZ TT?" say the A-T95E for $49.95 I own one and a "P" mount version of it. You can't deny above the bargain floor stuff, 90% of all electronics (receivers/amps/CD players/ DVD players/etc.) are better for the dollar than you could get 5 years/10 years/eons ago. Some great gear was made 20-30 years ago, but lots of cr*p was too. The exception to this rule is turntables. A 42 year-old Dual TT (like my 1226) can't be touched for $3000 today in something new. The Dual is exactly like a Porche 356 Speedster. It does exactly what it is meant to do and will keep doing it with a minimum of fuss. I can add R-T-R and cassette decks to the list of "dinosaurs" too. Some of us have shelves of magnetic media to put the optical media to shame.

[GranteedEV]

Turntables are transducers though.. that's a bit different from an electronic.

[Whitneyville1]

I can't tell you what my Ohmite NBoS "Calibration Standards Resistor" in it's glass tube I had in the USAF back in '72 cost, but it was a BUNCH! It was given to me with the "Full Bird's" permission because it's calibration had expired and I still have it. It reads the same as a .1% IRC 2 watt metal film I paid $1.71 for 9 years ago. Hmmm.... This is with the good ol' Simpson VTVM, too. Yeah, Eveready still makes 25.2 volt carbon-zinc "B+" batteries!!:p Except for the "audiopiles"(sic) that still believe PCB oil/paper caps sound best in pre-amps, low-level eq-stages, etc. or silver foil PCB oil paper caps are best, now you just do like we did in the toob-age. Q-C every component to make certain it's to "spec" before soldering it in. Kinda "over-kill" at audio freqs.

[domwilson]

I agree. Price does not always equal performance. Just as new doesn't always mean better than old. I still enjoy the sound of some of the older equipment. I recently heard a McIntosh amp that sounded like an old school 70's amp and I liked it. But I can't afford to fork out a few grand for something new.

[Whitneyville1]

Mac's have ALWAYS sounded like Mac's, back when they were pairs of 12.5 watt mono block toobies to today. To me a little to the "warm" side of neutral, but work well for most music. "Clean and crisp" without question. I've always had more than a soft spot for high-end Hafler stuff. I like it's sound. The top-end Harmon Karden stuff I like too. Funny truth, I wouldn't have bought my Denon AVR if I hadn't had the 90 day no-fault exchange policy on it. Now I'm very happy with it. Its an AVR990 Signature Series. I got it re-furbished for $485 with S&H, original MSRP was $2799.95. I far prefer it over the current top-of-the line, which won't accept 3 TT's and four tape decks and four VCR's, which I have all of. And for $40 I got the little "black box" that lets me play Quad records and four channel tapes back. If you've never heard "Tommy" in Quad, you've never heard "Tommy".

[djg]

An example of one of these threads:

www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/73632-do-speaker-cables-make-any-difference.html

[maynardg]

Don't overlook top shelf products from the past. They tend to be built like tanks, sound very, very good, and are just plain cool. Reasonably priced.

I have an Accuphase P-300 amp, circa 1973. Recapped a couple of years ago - because it uses discrete components, it is not an unmanageable task. Now, I feel it will go through the end of my lifetime. Powerful and sounds very good compared to anything current that I've compared it to. $ per hour of satisfaction - can't be beat.

Of course, I also have a '72 Mercedes 350SL - so maybe I am just one of those old guys.

Regarding caps.... they make a difference. Not as much as almost any other design decision you will make on speakers. I prefer the Clarity SA's. That is where the slope of the price performance curves changes abruptly for me. Part of the preference is lead quality. Daytons are too flimsy.

[Caiman]

My take on the original question is this: optimize design so that less expensive crossover parts will do just as good a job. For example, a tweeter waveguide might shave an LC arm off of a filter, well behaved driver rolloffs ditto, using an extra woofer in a .5 configuration might obviate the need for a BSC compensator, etc. Any money saved there might be used to buy better drivers, with stronger, Faraday'd motors etc. Some people ramble on and on about subjective crossover component minutiae when a better driver might have ten times less distortion than an inferior one.