Walnut finishing question?

[PWR RYD]

I'm building a pair of monoblock tube amps and I'm starting to build the cases. I found a couple of nice 1 x 4 walnut boards to use. It will be a simple mitered 4 sided box (aluminum plate top and bottom) with a 1/4" Roman Ogee reveal on the top outside edge. My question is what are your opinions/experiences on finishing walnut? Stain and varish? Tung oil? Any suggestions and/or example pictures would be greatly appreciated :)
Thanks.

[Steve Henry]

General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. No stain, 3 coats with 350 grit sanding in between.

[Dave_W]

I picked up a whole pile (like 250+ bd.ft.) of rough sawn black walnut while back. I've found that "sanding in" some boiled linseed oil really brings out the grain and color. I apply a liberal amount of BLO and then sand until it turns into a past and then wipe it off. I usually topcoat with poly, but what you do after the BLO is up to you.

My next wood finishing project I'm going to try the BLO/tung oil/poly blend as a top coat over shellac (colored or clear depending on the desired result). I've heard that it produces a wonderful warm glow when buffed out with fine steel wool. Google "maloof finish" for the process.

From what I understand the General Finishes seal-a-cell and arm-r-seal are variations on the oil/poly blend theme (Danish oil is another). I think it's cheaper just to blend your own.

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

i just used gloss poly. but im sure it could have been better. i like the suggestions above.
http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/sure%20amp%20kit/IMG_0081.jpg

[bobbarkto]

Just about any oil or oil based finish will do the job AFA color and grain enhancement. Surface finishes will be more protective than a plain oil.
If you can, Waterlox. It has tung oil instead of linseed so it doesn't yellow as much. Helps keep the rich color of fresh walnut.

Most solvent based lacquers designed for wood will do a great job too (they are formulated with linseed oil) but will yellow and accelerate the color loss typical with walnut.

Avoid pale, water white finishes.
Many waterbornes fall into this category and look dreadful on darker woods, especially walnut for some reason...
There are some new formulations that can look good.

Shellac is always an option. Amber or garnet, garnet tends to look a little richer ala tung oil.

[r-carpenter]

Just about any oil or oil based finish will do the job AFA color and grain enhancement. Surface finishes will be more protective than a plain oil.
If you can, Waterlox. It has tung oil instead of linseed so it doesn't yellow as much. Helps keep the rich color of fresh walnut.

Most solvent based lacquers designed for wood will do a great job too (they are formulated with linseed oil) but will yellow and accelerate the color loss typical with walnut.

Avoid pale, water white finishes.
Many waterbornes fall into this category and look dreadful on darker woods, especially walnut for some reason...
There are some new formulations that can look good.

Shellac is always an option. Amber or garnet, garnet tends to look a little richer ala tung oil.


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all tho a real Tang oil like this one http://www.garrettwade.com/sutherland-welles-tung-oil-finishes/p/99R01.01/
really looks nice!
Waterlox is a surprisingly good looking finish as well.

[bobbarkto]

Waterlox really does contain real tung oil.

Unlike almost every other product called "tung oil".
Pure oil excluded, of course.



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all tho a real Tang oil like this one http://www.garrettwade.com/sutherland-welles-tung-oil-finishes/p/99R01.01/
really looks nice!
Waterlox is a surprisingly good looking finish as well.

[BeeTL]

Birchwood Casey Gunstock Oil is a "wiping varnish" that is very durable and can also be easily sanded and touched up over time.

Applied as suggested above, it's a proven finish that will stand the test of time.

[donradick]

General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. No stain, 3 coats with 350 grit sanding in between.

Man, those are SUPER pretty.
I love walnut - but most folks darken it up too much. With these,
the grain pops very nicely.

[mtmpenn]

My walnut veneer was pretty light in color to begin with, but here is my experience:

clear grain filler, BLO, garnet shellac, wax:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9021/img0544m.jpg


General finishes Seal-a-cell and Arm-r-seal

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9551/tritrix2.jpg


Overall impressions:

In the future, if I want a satin, close to the wood finish I will use a oil/varnish blend (like seal-a-cell, waterlox, danish oil, etc...). Fast, easy, and very nice.

If I want a medium to high gloss I will use shellac. I love that the shellac is essentially odor free (flakes mixed with 180 proof everclear). There is also something about the appearance that I personally prefer to poly. Maybe it is my imagination or maybe it is a funciton of film thickness. French polishing takes a little practice, but above is my first attempt and they look pretty good.

[fastbike1]

Waterlox also has a gloss version for a top coat if that's what you want.

[smithnc]

Just about any oil or oil based finish will do the job AFA color and grain enhancement. Surface finishes will be more protective than a plain oil.
If you can, Waterlox. It has tung oil instead of linseed so it doesn't yellow as much. Helps keep the rich color of fresh walnut.

Most solvent based lacquers designed for wood will do a great job too (they are formulated with linseed oil) but will yellow and accelerate the color loss typical with walnut.

Avoid pale, water white finishes.
Many waterbornes fall into this category and look dreadful on darker woods, especially walnut for some reason...
There are some new formulations that can look good.

Shellac is always an option. Amber or garnet, garnet tends to look a little richer ala tung oil.

Can you still put poly on over these oils - like Waterlox for additional protection?

[bobbarkto]

Over linseed oil or pure tung oil. Yes, viable option.
Linseed or tung will enhance the grain a little more than a poly varnish alone so there can be some benefit in using an oil first.
When doing this only a small amount of oil is needed. Just enough to wet the surface. Then thoroughly wipe off all excess oil. Don't let it soak in excessively or you just prolong the time to top coat.

Over Watco Danish Oil. Yes but why?
Watco is mostly linseed oil so you will get the grain/color enhancement. But why bother with the expense of Watco? Use linseed oil instead. All the effect for a fraction of the cost.

Over Waterlox. No.
Waterlox is a very good varnish. It will likely be superior to most any other varnish in terms of overall protection. If applied correctly it will be more durable than most poly varnishes and will likely look better, too.
It has enough oil in it to not need any pre-oiling for effect. Use it alone or over a dye or stain if you need to alter the wood color.


Can you still put poly on over these oils - like Waterlox for additional protection?

[bendaniels]

Black walnut with Maloof Poly/Oil, and possibly some Maloof Oil/Wax as well. Long time ago, don't remember exactly. Loved the finish though. Very natural looking.

http://www.baniels.com/misc/walnut03.jpg
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http://www.baniels.com/misc/walnut01.jpg
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http://www.baniels.com/misc/walnut04.jpg

[PWR RYD]

Thank you very much guys! Very informative and some stunning examples. Sorry for the oh so basic questions. I really want to improve my wood working and finishing skills.

Two more question (I'm sure there will be more to come):

1. What grit sand paper should I use for the final sanding?

2. When I'm done sanding, can I wipe the wood with something like paint thinner to see what the color and grain might look like with a finish applied?

Thanks.

[bobbarkto]

1. Depends on the finish.
For oils and oil/varnish blends that are left close to the wood and not built to a film go pretty fine, say 320 or higher. I'll go to 800 or higher at times on some woods. Walnut won't benefit much from that high a grit.
For varnish/poly or any finish that builds surface film stop at ~150-180. It's needed for good adhesion and won't detract appearance under a film finish.

2. Yes. This might raise the grain a teeny little (there's always some water in solvents and moisture can get sucked in from the air as the solvent evaporates) so a light sanding over the whole will be a good idea to even up appearance. Let the wood dry before proceeding.


Thank you very much guys! Very informative and some stunning examples. Sorry for the oh so basic questions. I really want to improve my wood working and finishing skills.

Two more question (I'm sure there will be more to come):

1. What grit sand paper should I use for the final sanding?

2. When I'm done sanding, can I wipe the wood with something like paint thinner to see what the color and grain might look like with a finish applied?

Thanks.

[waynew]

I like a honey colored oil-based stain. It doesn't seem to change the color of the walnut, and it provides a good platform for my clear coat. I have done Tung Oil and BLO and both will yield excellent results. This Table was done with ZAR Honey Maple and clear coated with Satin Poly. It has maintaned it's appearance for about 5 years now, and even with the kids beating on it, still looks superb.

YMMV

Wayne

[PWR RYD]

I really like the look/color of mtmpenn's MT and waynew's table, but probably with a little less sheen. I am not looking for the easy way out, but I also don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Baby Steps so to speak. If anyone has seen my tube preamp or ClassDaudio threads... my prior experience, other than rattle can paint over MDF, is limited to applying Minwax stain with an old tube sock and wiped off with an old T-shirt and Minwax satin or gloss poly applied with a foam brush :o

Any suggestions that are "more than likely" to turn out nice with this walnut?

Thanks.

[bobbarkto]

A couple of coats of an oil/varnish rubbed on as you have done before...
Waterlox, the same.
Both can yield a satiny sheen, not too much gloss or build, that is close to the wood.

A pure tung oil will leave a dull sheen if you don't try hard to make it glossier.

Otherwise.. it's time to step up to a film finish. :D


I really like the look/color of mtmpenn's MT and waynew's table, but probably with a little less sheen. I am not looking for the easy way out, but I also don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Baby Steps so to speak. If anyone has seen my tube preamp or ClassDaudio threads... my prior experience, other than rattle can paint over MDF, is limited to applying Minwax stain with an old tube sock and wiped off with an old T-shirt and Minwax satin or gloss poly applied with a foam brush :o

Any suggestions that are "more than likely" to turn out nice with this walnut?

Thanks.

[PWR RYD]

Does film finish mean a wipe on poly?

[bobbarkto]

Sort of, maybe, could be.

If you have a can of poly (varnish) and you just wipe on 2 or so coats and not let it build then no, not really a film finish. Although it technically is a film since most of the material is on the wood rather than in the wood. It's a gray area, neither fish nor fowl sort of thing.

If you brushed on 3 or more coats, usually with some sanding and rubbing out along the way, then yes, it would be a film finish.

If you diluted the poly with oil and thinner then it would not be a film finish as you would end up wiping away all the film.

Rule of thumb...
Oils are in the wood finishes.
Varnishes are film finishes.
Oil/Varnish (sometimes thinned) blends are close to the wood finishes.





Does film finish mean a wipe on poly?

[PWR RYD]

Wow I have a lot to learn. Much thanks for your help.

[mtmpenn]

Bob is the expert here, but if you are looking for satin sheen I wouldn't bother with a film finish. An amplifier doesn't need the protection of a film and you can get a very attractive satin with a closer to the wood finish.

I'd suggest you buy a commercial oil-varnish blend. Wipe-on, wipe-off, let dry, repeat as desired.

(I used seal-a-cell (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10929) in the past but waterlox (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/waterloxoriginalsealerfinishquart.aspx)gets a lot of love and has me curious)

Consider a coat of wax if you want to bring up the sheen (though given the open pores you need to be careful not to shove the wax into the pores... I had some luck putting the wax on a t-shirt, then wrapping more t-shirt over the wax... this way the wax must squeeze through the clean t-shirt and you get a very fine layer, no lumps shoved into pores. Experiment on scrap first).

Also, as a vote of confidence you have more than enough experience to make this look awesome. I consider myself a total newb and have had pretty good success. Oil/varnish blends are particularly easy since you wipe them off, thus eliminating the chance for runs.

[fastbike1]

What sets Waterlox apart is the resin. You get all the good stuff of the tung oil plus a more durable finish that's simple to apply.

[mtmpenn]

I'll probably explore waterlox in a future build. I love the absence of fumes with shellac but french polishing is pretty labor intensive and I don't want that level of sheen on everything.

I watched that video that you posted in the other thread from woodman.tv and the waterlox also looks a little more amber than seal-a-cell?? That could be a good thing in my eyes as I really like the amber hue on most woods.

[bobbarkto]

Yes, Waterlox is darker red/amber and looks especially nice on wood with some red hue in it.
It's the phenolic resin and tung oil that impart the darker color.
It's similar to a garnet shellac.

The most common type of varnish is Alkyd resin/linseed oil and is the more common yellow/amber. Most "poly" varnishes are this type. They just add a small amount of urethane resin to enhance hardness or something.
Close shellac color is plain amber.

Soya oil/alkyd resin varnishes are almost water white, but do have some color for grain enhancement and suitability over dark wood and can have some "poly" added as well.
- Most true water white finishes look ghastly on dark woods unless some stain or other coloring agent is used.
Close shellac color is light amber/blonde.
Platina/platinum or other extra pale shellac would be a closer match to a true water white finish.

Most "Spar" varnishes or exterior varnishes also use phenolic resin and will be reddish amber in color. Most do not use tung oil so are much less durable overall than Waterlox.


I'll probably explore waterlox in a future build. I love the absence of fumes with shellac but french polishing is pretty labor intensive and I don't want that level of sheen on everything.

I watched that video that you posted in the other thread from woodman.tv and the waterlox also looks a little more amber than seal-a-cell?? That could be a good thing in my eyes as I really like the amber hue on most woods.

[dwigle]

Waterlox is expensive but for amateurs it's a miracle product. Wipe in on with a paper towel - very thin coats. It dries pretty fast. Continue with thin coats until you get the depth of finish your after. It will give you a pro quality finish that looks sprayed on. And you applied it with a paper towel! It doesn't have that cheap furniture poly look.

Sometimes I apply the second coat with 1200-1500 grit wet/dry sandpaper or a white 3m scotchpad - using the Waterlox as a lubricant. Rub it in carefully to give even pressure and not sand off any dye/stain you’ve previously applied. Then wipe it off with clean paper towels. The process yields a glass like finish. Then apply two more coats normally.

Oh, the other great thing about Waterlox - you can recoat this year or next or later without sanding. I had a sub finished as described and after 5 years had a few water spots and rings. I lightly cleaned it with mineral spirits and rubbed it down with two coats Waterlox. It looks brand new.

[r-carpenter]

I've build a few sets of table tops in solid White Oak for restaurants and used Waterlox with a great deal of success. It's good enough for commercial applications.
Thumbs up to Bob.
Very detailed and substantiated explanation.

[mtmpenn]

So, if it's the phenolic resin that adds te color, could you approximate waterlox with a mix of spar varnish, tung oil, mineral spirits (1/3 each)?

I'm cheap and like the idea of mixing ad needed.

Mike

[dougjohnson]

So, if it's the phenolic resin that adds te color, could you approximate waterlox with a mix of spar varnish, tung oil, mineral spirits (1/3 each)?

I use Sam Maloof's finish: oil based poly, pure tung oil, and boiled linseed oil, 1/3 each. Use like any wipe on finish. It is soft, close to the wood, and very durable. One of the best features is that it is easy to repair. If something happens, just sand out the problem and re-apply.

It does have an amber tone to it that is very nice on woods like walnut and cherry. Maybe not so good if you'd like to keep a light wood light.

To top it, make a wax with 1/3 each tung oil, BLO, and bees wax. You need to shave the wax and warm (GENTLY) the oil to dissolve the wax. But it's beautiful.

-- Doug

[bobbarkto]

In appearance, yes, should work quite well.
There will be some differences, but for less demanding applications it won't matter much. It will get you close.
Experiment with proportions. Use just enough oil and solvent to make it workable. You might need more or less oil for example.

Caveats, because of the added oil:
It won't be able to be built up to a thicker film like a traditional varnish.
It will be a softer finish.
It won't be as water proof.
Some aspects like drying time and re-coating will also be effected but precisely in what way I'm not sure. It will take longer to dry for sure.


So, if it's the phenolic resin that adds te color, could you approximate waterlox with a mix of spar varnish, tung oil, mineral spirits (1/3 each)?

I'm cheap and like the idea of mixing ad needed.

Mike

[PWR RYD]

Well the time has come to make the final decision on the finish. The amp cases are built and I sanded them with 150, then 220, then 320, and finally 400 grit. I am pretty happy with how they have turned out so far. All I have done is blown them off with my air compressor:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/011.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/014.jpg

Here is a sample piece of that wood that I gave a quick wipe with some paint thinner just to see the color and grain. The silly camera flash makes the right side of the sample look really light. In reality the whole piece looks consistanly like the color of the left side:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/004.jpg

My wife and I like the color. So I don't want to add any stain or dye to change that. That just leaves me with what's next. I'd kind of like to do an oil verses a film like poly. BLO? Is the final 400 grit sanding good enough? Can I just wipe them with a tack rag (cheese cloth) then apply the finish?

bobbarkto,
I see you are from northern IL. I live in Rockford. Any suggestions as to where I should go to purchase the finish other than Home Depot, Lowes, or Menards? Nickleson's maybe?

Thanks.

[bobbarkto]

Since you sanded to such a high grit you should stay with an oil or oil/varnish finish.
BLO is not a finish. It will add color and some depth (for a while). You need to coat it with something if you want any protection at all.

Pure tung oil will do the job and leave a low lustre. Just be sure to allow the first coat about two weeks dry time before re-coating. Subsequent coats dry faster. (when the smell goes away it's dry)
You can apply by wet sanding it in with some 320 - 600 grit wet/dry paper.

If you can get to one of the stores listed below.. they have pure tung oil, Waterlox or Arm-R-Seal. But on walnut, Waterlox looks so much nicer.

Woodcraft in Libertyville. Rockler in Schaumburg. Don't know Nickelson's...




Well the time has come to make the final decision on the finish. The amp cases are built and I sanded them with 150, then 220, then 320, and finally 400 grit. I am pretty happy with how they have turned out so far. All I have done is blown them off with my air compressor:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/011.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/014.jpg

Here is a sample piece of that wood that I gave a quick wipe with some paint thinner just to see the color and grain. The silly camera flash makes the right side of the sample look really light. In reality the whole piece looks consistanly like the color of the left side:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/004.jpg

My wife and I like the color. So I don't want to add any stain or dye to change that. That just leaves me with what's next. I'd kind of like to do an oil verses a film like poly. BLO? Is the final 400 grit sanding good enough? Can I just wipe them with a tack rag (cheese cloth) then apply the finish?

bobbarkto,
I see you are from northern IL. I live in Rockford. Any suggestions as to where I should go to purchase the finish other than Home Depot, Lowes, or Menards? Nickleson's maybe?

Thanks.

[fastbike1]

The tack cloth won't get the surface clean enough.


Here's what I do to clean the surface. I don't blow anything w/ air compressor. Just puts dust up in the air where it will come back down on your surface.

Vacuum the surface with a brush attachment. Then wipe the surface with a lint free cloth (not a paper towel). For the final pass, wipe with your hand. It's the best lint free surface. Vacuum the dust off you hand.



Can I just wipe them with a tack rag (cheese cloth) then apply the finish?

[PWR RYD]

I want to thank everyone for your great information and suggestions.

Update: I couldn't find Waterlox anywhere local :(

I cut up a bunch of test pieces to try out different finishes (Danish oil, Tung oil, various stains/poly, etc.). After 14 trial runs I finally came up with the one that my wife and I liked best. I'm embarrassed to admit that after stating very adamantly in this thread that I wanted to do something other than a stain and poly finish, that is exactly what I ended up doing :o I went back and sanded with 220, mixed two different stains together that yeilded a very pleasing color, then applied satin poly over that. I am pleased with how it turned out. Maybe my next set of speakers will have removable walnut baffles that are finished with Waterlox. Again, thank you guys. I've learned a lot. We all seem to like pictures, so here they are:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/003.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/004-1.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/005.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/wheelie/008.jpg

[bobbarkto]

Hard to argue with success. :)
They look great!



... I'm embarrassed to admit that after stating very adamantly in this thread that I wanted to do something other than a stain and poly finish, that is exactly what I ended up doing :o

...

[Dave_W]

Those look great! Walnut is one of my favorite domestic wood species.

[PWR RYD]

Just a few more up to date pictures:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/DSC_0086.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/DSC_0084.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/DSC_0094.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/PWRRYD/DSC_0091.jpg

[djg]

Those look very nice. Obviously fairly muscular. Details of your amps please?

[arlis_1957@yahoo.com]

those look great! do you have cages for those. they get really hot, right?
i want to hear them somtime.

[PWR RYD]

This amp is based on the push-pull KT88 circuit by Bruce Heran called the OddWatt. The driver/phase-splitter tubes I'm using are 1963 NOS RCA 12SL7GT's. The output tubes are new production JJ KT88's. The power and output transformers are Edcor's that I bead blasted and painted satin black. You can find a lot of details about this design on diyaudioprojects.com. I will give some subjective listening opinions after I finish them. Over all so far this has been a very fun project :)

Next up.... a much more efficient pair of tower speakers that dig 25 wpc :D