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  • Hi-Fi PA

    Generally, I find a lot of people like it loud and like it clean.

    Anyone want to share their opinions/experiments/successes/failures on drivers/cabs/electronics, or even if "Hi-Fi PA" is actually a thing?

  • #2
    DIY sound group

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    • #3
      https://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/

      .
      Ed Henderson

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      • #4
        Like this?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LafeEric View Post
          ... if "Hi-Fi PA" is actually a thing?
          It is.
          Avoid the pitfalls and compromises taken at the entry end of the market.

          "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
          “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
          "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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          • #6
            I was hoping for a bit more technical discussion.
            Great link ejh2854.



            Originally posted by Sydney View Post
            ...Avoid the pitfalls and compromises taken at the entry end of the market.
            Sounds like good advice, but just what are those pitfalls? What would the right things to do be?

            Driver selection. Cabinet construction. Crossover topology. Amplifier choice. Room compensation.

            There's so much to discuss. Anybody want to pick a place to start?

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            • #7
              The AVSforum diy speaker subforum is filled with big sound enthusiasts, using theDIYSG Titans that I pic linked among others. You can't get too big or too loud for them.

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              • #8
                They ( PA speakers ) are part of a system - as such it's an integration of parts.
                Driver selection. Cabinet construction.
                are important considerations.
                The cheapest commercial products are often inferior copies of more expensive designs, cutting cost corners on the drivers and quality of construction.
                PA speakers of course vary as much as PA demands, from small hall to concert level. Quality of sound reproduction is also dependent on correct implementation.
                fwiw: Those I've worked with ( that were what I consider "Hi-Fi" ) were Active Electronics with multiple amplifiers.

                Edit: It is important to note that to attain high SPL levels, PA speakers are not designed for extended L.F. reproduction; this is because of the increased air displacement demands of the bottom octave.
                Last edited by Sydney; 08-10-2018, 08:05 AM.
                "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Another good link djg.

                  Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                  They ( PA speakers ) are part of a system - as such it's an integration of parts.
                  True, but I'm thinking that's true of any well implemented speaker system So what is it that makes PA different? I think it's more about intended purpose. I'm thinking regular systems are personal, that is they are intended for one person or at most to fill a regular room in a regular house. Other than that, they are for the most part the same. It's right in the name Public Address. Unfortunately, I think most people, especially audiophools, think that strictly means utilitarian or industrial. Yes, at the scale of a large PA system it addresses some different problems than will be found in a personal system, but that's really just a matter of scale, IMO. The problem of fidelity remains constant.

                  Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                  PA speakers of course vary as much as PA demands, from small hall to concert level. Quality of sound reproduction is also dependent on correct implementation.
                  fwiw: Those I've worked with ( that were what I consider "Hi-Fi" ) were Active Electronics with multiple amplifiers.

                  I don't have any professional experience with PA, but from what I've learned on putting together my own big system I agree completely. I struggled a lot with speaker building, and buying a DSP showed me why. Being able to make such drastic changes on the fly showed just how variable it all is, especially at the voicing stage when little changes can make a big difference. Yes, I still think it's possible to build an excellent passive system, but it is very labor intensive and time consuming, and if you ever move the speakers to another listening space you really need to tweak it - at least I do, because I use DSP and it's easy to do so.

                  Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                  Edit: It is important to note that to attain high SPL levels, PA speakers are not designed for extended L.F. reproduction; this is because of the increased air displacement demands of the bottom octave.
                  Again, totally agree. One thing I found as I started building speakers is that I kept running out of bass. I don't consider myself a 'basshead' but I do like full bandwidth at high SPL and plenty of headroom. My current system uses a compression driver tweeter, a 6.5 inch mid, a 15 inch mid-bass, and an 18 inch sub crossed at 60 Hz. The system I am building now will substitute 4 15 inch subs for the 18 inch.

                  My listening space is rather large, so it's a necessity.

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                  • #10

                    I wasn't sure if this was truly a Pro Audio / Live Sound Reinforcement oriented post or rather a large personal stereo ( I believe the later ).

                    Agree with your 1st paragraph - To offer rough analogies: Lighting for specific purposes - large scale or stage vs home, or load capacity considerations of cars vs trucks.
                    Many of the same issues and considerations for home scenarios also exist for large scale sound - touring/portable sound adds additional considerations.
                    And no singular Speaker design is the answer for every situation.
                    ( Philosophically I see it as similar to the difficulties of providing food for a large crowd, compared to having a personal chef. )

                    Having started in the 60s with Vocal Columns and Sound systems that fit everything ( including band members ) into a Van - that evolved to today's systems are enormous changes in numerous areas.
                    One of the first was modular breakdown and signal treatment which effectively eliminated many of the intrinsic issues with using passive components particularly at high power.
                    Again, Everyone I know went Active decades ago, and more specially - DSP is the current direction.

                    ps my listening areas is large as well - systems are Active but not DSP ( yet )
                    "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                    “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                    "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                      I wasn't sure if this was truly a Pro Audio / Live Sound Reinforcement oriented post or rather a large personal stereo ( I believe the later ).
                      By my own definition it is a personal system (which as yet is only mono) in my one (big) listening room, but that said...

                      In my quest for bigger sound to fill the space I have I had to take a lot from what is technically 'PA'. The mid (B&C 6MD38) and mid-bass (Eminence 4015LF) are squarely 'Pro' drivers. The sub(s) are more probably considered 'Home Theater'. The only actual 'Hi-Fi' driver is the B&C DE250, and even that is in the 'Pro' category here at PE. I use Adcom amps to power it, however when I expand the subs I feel Crown amps will work just fine to power them.

                      So no, I'm not filling a dance hall (exactly) but it's a far cry from the old MCS stereo I had in the '80s.

                      But to answer your implied question, I had in mind for this thread challenging the audio snob's opinion that PA cannot be Hi-Fi, a notion which I feel is wrong. Even with the one speaker in my system, I am constantly amazed at the clarity, detail, and 'you are there' feeling I get from listening to it.

                      Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                      And no singular Speaker design is the answer for every situation.
                      Absolutely agree. That said, I would like to change 'Go big or go home' to 'Go big AT home!' I think a lot of people do, actually, or try to. I was also hoping this thread would go into how to successfully do that.

                      Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                      Having started in the 60s with Vocal Columns and Sound systems that fit everything ( including band members ) into a Van - that evolved to today's systems are enormous changes in numerous areas.
                      One of the first was modular breakdown and signal treatment which effectively eliminated many of the intrinsic issues with using passive components particularly at high power.
                      Again, Everyone I know went Active decades ago, and more specially - DSP is the current direction.

                      ps my listening areas is large as well - systems are Active but not DSP ( yet )
                      I don't have any experience with Active systems. Do they have provision for delay? I've simply fallen in love with DSPs ability to delay, to equalize, crossover, all with perfect time alignment. It can't solve all issues (room nulls, for example) but it comes pretty darn close, all in a tiny, tiny little box.

                      Whether your large space is a shop or a game basement or grand hall or what have you, I think there is a lot of opportunity to fill in the sort of gray area between regular domestic sound systems and outright PA systems. That's what I hope this thread addresses.

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                      • #12
                        Do they have provision for delay?
                        Yes
                        The advent of delay revolutionized Live Sound.
                        Provided that enough performance data is provided - the output numbers can be derived. The Pro Sound Industry has standardized data bases that allow for planning a large scale Sound Map
                        "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                        “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                        "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I would also like to add that last year I visited Austin Texas and wound up in the Bang & Olufsen showroom. I listened to many of their speakers, including their flagship Beolab 90, and I have to say that while it sounded good, I feel my speaker sounded just as good, and in fact my bass sounded better. Considering the price of the Beolab 90 ($39K EACH) I came away pretty unimpressed.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                            Yes
                            The advent of delay revolutionized Live Sound.
                            Provided that enough performance data is provided - the output numbers can be derived. The Pro Sound Industry has standardized data bases that allow for planning a large scale Sound Map
                            So Active systems pretty much do what DSP does, it just did it in analog?

                            Sounds good to me.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LafeEric View Post
                              So Active systems pretty much do what DSP does, it just did it in analog?

                              Sounds good to me.
                              Sort of...
                              Both are Active in that they manipulate audio at signal level using electronics.
                              DSP is another approach to Signal Processing/Conditioning. As it involves conversion to a Digital form of data, it opens up many additional capabilities and possibilities beyond Analog and simply impractical/unattainable using a passive approach.
                              "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                              “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                              "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                              Comment

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