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How to tune a crossover please?

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  • frustrated
    replied
    Hey guys, i have created a tutorial from the info you guys have given me in this thread. Please see attached file. I don;t expect you guys to read through all of it but looks like I have covered [learned] enough to set up at least an analog crossover successfully? Frequency Response, Crossovers and Drivers.pdf
    Attached Files

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  • Mike C
    replied
    Short of the BSS London DSP's that are used mostly for installations BSS has discontinued all of their speaker processing DSP models.
    The DBX units would be fine for your system.

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  • frustrated
    replied
    This thread was for the purpose mentioned, only to understand frequency response related to crossovers and drivers as my bud is the one who owns and tuned the BSS on my rig and he wants me to step away from Analog and get a BSS so I wish to learn tuning whatever crossover I should go with myself. I asked about different crossovers just to get some ideas about different crossovers both digital and analog. My threads on the other forums were for different purposes.

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  • Mike C
    replied
    I'm going to be honest here, in all the forums that you have post in most of the responding people have given up and walked away confused in what you are really trying to do.
    You started off here talking about an Ashly 1001 stereo two way crossover, and then you show two Rane AC23 stereo three way crossovers.
    Are you wanting to just use the active crossover between the sub woofers and your two way top/mid hi speakers assuming they have passive crossovers in them
    or do you want to tri-amp the system with a three way active crossover. Some speakers with passive crossovers have various ways to bypass the internal passive crossover and run them bi amped or as a full tri amp system.

    Then you mention a having a BSS FDS-388 DSP of all things. That was like the big daddy DSP processor way back in the day, among one of the first actually.
    It does/did a lot for the time, not the most intuitive to set up by today's standards and digital processing has come a LONG way since then.

    Wrong crossover over settings on a high frequency as in too low of a crossover frequency will have you buying new diaphragms.

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  • frustrated
    replied
    Ok got it. thanks a million for the knowledge guys, I now have a much better idea of frequency response, crossovers and driver specs!.

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  • Paul O
    replied
    Mike, crossover and EQ are separate functions even with DSP, the control on that Rane is for a crossover frequency and it would be unusual to set one higher than 7khz, for driver response shaping parametric EQ is what you want. Some analog crossovers have CD horn correction EQ but there is often very little control over it sometimes just an on or off switch so it's not of much use, taming a compression driver/horn combo typically requires multiple filters so as I have said before perhaps even in some of your threads on other forums.. DSP really isn't optional with these components. The difference this makes to the sound produced is not subtle, an unprocessed CD typically sounds very midrange heavy with poor highend but after EQ would be very natural sounding with good to great highend extension.

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  • frustrated
    replied
    Yeah, the singer in the pic is dressed similar to Stevie in the Chicago Concert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqHUEfI1JH0

    Wish I could meet or talk with Stevie one day. BTW Mike I am guessing you know that this is Mike from the other forums?

    Thanks for the explanation! I am going to make a mini tutorial from this thread's info for myself tomorrow or so.
    Since I am an old school hound I am still undecided whether to stick with the BSS or go back to analog. Looking at this image of an AC 23 Rane below, the highest frequency shows only 7k, does that mean it would not be ideal for targeting a horn driver at around 12khz or so or would I simply need to the use an EQ to target the 12khz?

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2021-01-03 at 10.12.48 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	1,004.8 KB ID:	1460703

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  • Mike C
    replied
    Unfortunately I have never worked with Stevie Nicks, that picture is from a show with a Fleetwood Mac tribute band! They were really good to the point you started to forget they were a tribute band.

    The Peavey driver spec means that in the frequency range from 500hz to 3,200hz the the peaks and dip in the response only vary by 2db, the range from
    3200hz on out to 8000hz the response is dropping in level by 3db, beyond 8000hz the response is dropping at a rate of 6db per octave. An octave equals doubling
    of a frequency so that would mean say if at 8000hz the level was 106db at 16,000hz it would be down to 100db.

    The response graph on the spec sheet you linked to kind of follows the numbers in the spec.

    In theory and going by the numbers on the spec you can see that you would need to apply upwards to 20db
    of boost towards the top end of that driver to get to a somewhat flat to 20,000hz response, not something you really want to do.

    The response spec of newer one inch drivers are better but they still start getting peaky and dropping off around
    16,000hz look at some B&C drivers for example.

    Different diaphragm materials, shapes and sizes all play into a drivers response as well as the the drivers exit throat and phase plug.
    standing waves/reflections can build up in the driver throat causing cancellation at different frequencies.

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  • frustrated
    replied
    These Frequency Response numbers in the the attached image is confusing me taken from this driver's page:

    https://peavey.com/manuals/80300843.pdf

    can you guys tell me what they mean or how that info should be applied please?

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2021-01-03 at 8.13.38 AM.png
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ID:	1460668

    Mike C
    That 1st pic on your site: http://www.mikecaldwellaudioproductions.com/page3.html

    Is that Stevie Nicks? it looks like a pic from the video of her concert in Chicago I believe which is one of my very fav videos and best version of her tune "Edge of seventeen".

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike C
    replied
    I actually low pass filter my high frequency out on the DSP's at 16.5khz with a 18db BW filter.
    There's nothing out there worth wasting the power on that's not going to get reproduced anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • billfitzmaurice
    replied
    Where concert sound is concerned 12kHz is sufficient. I've got over a hundred RTAs I took when I worked the FOH at a major venue with million dollar systems, none show much content above that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike C
    replied
    Don't get too obsessed on reaching 20khz and even more so if we're talking about PA system components here, getting out to 16khz or so some what flat is fine.

    Humidity in the air will attenuate 20khz at most distances a PA system would be trying to cover and not to mention very few middle aged people are even going to be able to hear out to 20khz, loud music aside just daily noise. driving in the car with the windows down, factory work, lawn mowing, city street noise, ect all takes it's toll
    as well as just the aging process of the ear itself, I wear ear plugs a lot!!!

    In a full active system some horns require what's called CD horn eq (constant directivity) to help flatten the response of the horn. It varies from horn to horn but it's
    something like a gentle high shelf boost starting around 3khz.
    Some passive crossover have the EQ as part of the crossover.

    What system speakers and amps are you using?

    As for hi hats about 15khz is where they are going to top out at, most of the fundamentals are in the 500hz to around 4khz.




    Leave a comment:


  • frustrated
    replied
    Well that should explain why I heard no noticeable difference in the bass from the speaker when tuned with either the Ashly or BSS but you guys would agree that for mids/highs the digital processor would be better than an Analog crossover I'm guessing?

    Moving on, when I look at the graphs of all horn drivers, I am seeing the roll off going downwards usually after 2khz, if you wanted to choose a driver for a horn which would produce enough highs for the Hi-hats so I am guessing around 20khz, is there any horn driver which would maintain 20khz please?

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  • Mike C
    replied
    The DBX Venue 360 is very flexible in set up and and routing and the latest Drive Rack PA2 is much better than the original DR PA versions.
    Both of those also have very good set up and control apps, you do need to put the 360 or the PA2 on a WIFI router to control them.
    With the 360 app you can download it and run it with out being connected to an actual 360 if you wanted to get the feel of.

    I use many 360's in my sound systems and have installed quite a few 360's and PA2's in other systems.

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  • Paul O
    replied
    Originally posted by frustrated View Post
    Next, I have asked a few people who have used both digital and Analog crossovers and I had asked specifically about the Driverack 260 and a BSS FDS388 and was told the DBX does not even come close to the BSS, that one will get better quality sound with the bss or the more expensive crossovers like Lake, RCF e.t.c.
    Compared to the speakers in use the electronics and processing is tens of thousands of times less significant in determining overall sound quality. A very high spec fullrange audio system can be very revealing of subtle details which can then lead to subtle but noticable differences in gear with critical listening, but claims of "massive" differences in electronics is overblown IMO.

    Originally posted by frustrated View Post
    Thing is, I have heard one bass tuned with both a BSS FDS388 and an Ashly XR1001 and I could not tell the different between the two
    A bass as in a bass guitar? If so you're not going to hear much if any difference at low frequencies, all the detail is in the mid and high frequencies.

    The DR260 is generally accepted as a very good piece of gear with good flexibility and sound quality, the DRPA boxes on the other hand are not as well liked, they have limited routing options and many users report poorer sound quality. The Behringer DCX is generally considered to be superior to the DRPA in SQ and it has the same routing flexibility as the DR260... all at a fraction of the price.

    But all that said, if you're just starting out with PA systems any of these processors including the DRPA would be a great option, as I mentioned above the speakers are going to have a far greater influence on the final results so spend most of your time and money there instead.




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