Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

    Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
    That's one of the justifications. but in the vast majority of cases having subs and tops within the same footprint results in the worst possible results from the subs. This acoustical engineering fact should be second nature to anyone and everyone who works with sound gear professionally.
    Of course it's far from ideal. I personally think it less relevant then you do because I find there is generally an over abundance of bass anyway. Way too many people take the old Soviet philosophy when it comes to sound... Trying to compensate for low quality with high quantity. It just doesn't work.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

      Originally posted by madmallard View Post
      when I saw the FooFighters last year in ATL, they had some flown arrays of about 10 stacks. Some were a bigger arc pointing down toward the floor and others were more subtle to the rest of house.

      As near as I could tell, all the subs were under the stage.
      I'm guessing it was a large ( multi-use ) arena, where portable flown cabs predominate.
      I have recently noticed that the better clubs of much smaller size ( < 200 occupancy ) are investing in very good sound systems. These in-house systems eliminate the need for bands to have a PA system ( and all that entails ), and offer other advantages.
      Is this a trend in Atlanta as well?
      "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
      "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

        Originally posted by AMC View Post
        I personally think it less relevant then you do because I find there is generally an over abundance of bass anyway.
        That's a matter of the operator's taste, or lack of same. But the two worst things you can do in the average sized club is to have the subs placed away from the walls and to split them left/right. Doing so pretty much guarantees that response in the room will be so uneven that there almost literally won't be a good seat in the house.
        www.billfitzmaurice.com
        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

          Originally posted by Sydney View Post
          I'm guessing it was a large ( multi-use ) arena, where portable flown cabs predominate.
          I have recently noticed that the better clubs of much smaller size ( < 200 occupancy ) are investing in very good sound systems. These in-house systems eliminate the need for bands to have a PA system ( and all that entails ), and offer other advantages.
          Is this a trend in Atlanta as well?
          this was Gwinnett Arena, but none of it was house sound. It was all immediately brought down & packed out.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

            this was Gwinnett Arena, but none of it was house sound. It was all immediately brought down & packed out.
            That's what I figured, which obviously leaves room for diversity of implementations unless the same sound provider does the shows on a frequent basis.
            Unlike some music halls; which have a fixed sound system which affords the time to really optimize for the location and allow operators to gain experience with a stable install, not one set up and tore down and transported repeatedly.
            IMO: It's a positive step to see small venues invest serious capital in a well designed house systems vs having the band provide the FOH. The bands appreciate it as well.
            "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
            "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

              from a business perspective, i don't see how they can make it back without driving costs up all the way down the line.

              From taking a bigger cut at the box, or demanding service fees up front, all that will raise end-user costs, which is the band and the audience.

              Unless you're packing a venue like Gwinnett pretty much more than 50% capacity every performance, and have a booking schedule greater than 2/3 full at any given time, the money isn't there.

              The actual professional qualifications to design such a system as near as i can tell from being around here, is both an archetect, and an aerospace engineer. :/ Those people don't come cheap~~

              edit: And actually, its more my small gig experience that bands that are concerned with consistancy tend to bring their own stuff anyways, preferring to have hired & vetted their own tech. This was something usually only big bands did up until recently from what I understand...

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                Large touring arts have been having a hard time in recent years: tickets sales have been down because of the prices charged. Many acts are opting to go for smaller venues to assure better sales or are touring in tandem with other acts to increase interest.
                I had a friend retire from his sound business ( due to health concerns ) and he had an enormous amount invested in gear. Most of his revenue was not from the large 10,000 seat concerts but from the far more frequent small jobs that were non-rider specific.
                "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                  Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                  If you heard a bad line array the fault was the operator, not the gear.
                  I'd have to agree with that too since I have heard some arrays that were outstanding. I think deploying an array properly is a far more complicated task than seting up an old school stack and unfortunately many of the smaller operators simply don't have the technical chops to pull it off.
                  Paul O

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                    Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                    I think deploying an array properly is a far more complicated task than seting up an old school stack and unfortunately many of the smaller operators simply don't have the technical chops to pull it off.
                    Indeed.
                    In a conversation with the owner of a Sound Company; I mentioned the many complaints about prior sound from his firm's line array. It was during a several day event in which an employee was allowed to set and operate the line array; NOT the system owner.
                    The owner admitted that they had problems with that employee not following explicit setup and operations procedure despite having undergone training on physical placement and DSP setup.
                    "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                    "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                      Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                      I can only assume that you did not look at the link I posted. Splaying doesn't work. If one must use cabs side by side, and the only reason to do so is a low ceiling, they should be cross-fired.
                      If the port is properly placed, so that the cone is not visible through it, no mids or highs will escape the port and rear mounting makes no difference, as the low frequencies which emanate from a port are omni-directional, and will be equally loud in front of or behind the speaker irrespective of front or rear placement.
                      .... it depends on if you are trying to splay it away from a wall or not (hmm.... maybe my system would sound better pointed at the wall.... ). My concern is more for the more modern type woofers with very large vented coils... you can see the back of the dustcap in most of those designs. His designs show the vent immediately behind the woofer.

                      Best implemented LA I've ever heard was Phish in 09 I think (oops.... shhh).. it sounded like a CD... even better than the VIP section for Pink Floyd '95. I think I stood there for a full set with my eyes closed.. and the most sober I've ever been at a show... tyvm! The worst case unfortunately was Staind at IRP... not their fault... a cold front came in with 20mph wind... the temp and wind shear destroyed the mix.... I spent most of my time by the delay stack.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                        Originally posted by BElstro View Post
                        His designs show the vent immediately behind the woofer.
                        Whoever 'he' is would fail Acoustical Engineering 101.
                        He wouldn't be the first designer who was not familiar with basic concepts, I'm afraid.
                        www.billfitzmaurice.com
                        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                          Originally posted by BElstro View Post
                          ...Best implemented LA I've ever heard was Phish in 09 I think (oops.... shhh).. it sounded like a CD... even better than the VIP section for Pink Floyd '95. I think I stood there for a full set with my eyes closed.. and the most sober I've ever been at a show... tyvm! The worst case unfortunately was Staind at IRP... not their fault... a cold front came in with 20mph wind... the temp and wind shear destroyed the mix.... I spent most of my time by the delay stack.
                          Sounds like you may have some "Road Dog" in ya
                          You have probably noticed how some venues and arenas shouldn't really have music events, because no sound system can overcome the inherent bad acoustics.
                          And some bands have consistently had better tech and could dial in a system within the 1st song.
                          And perhaps you have met the guy touting his experience - perhaps claiming he was a roadie for ( famous group ) or worked countless shows, only to find out it was hype.
                          Last edited by Sydney; 03-17-2012, 12:28 PM. Reason: clarity
                          "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                          "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                            Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                            If you have overlapping coverage, and all CD horns do, there will be comb filtering. When you place cabs side by side the midrange dispersion will be halved. Both those concerns are solved with vertically array cabs. In cases where extremely wide dispersion is required, as in wider than 120 degrees, the cabs can be rotated to different axis, creating an axial array.
                            bill thats is the y i pickt the round horns thay do a lot better job thin most

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                              Boy oh boy, did this thread ever go off the rails.

                              Scott, if you're interested in building either of the two cabinet designs you proposed (and this thread hasn't yet left a bad taste in your mouth from all the impractical suggestions) then build version A of your cabinet (per the attached PDF file) with front-exiting ports. Stick with the trapezoidal shape because it's conventional, and allows splaying of multiple cabinets if necessary. It probably wouldn't be the end of the world if you ported out the rear, but directing all the available energy to the front of the speaker cabinet just makes intuitive sense, and you won't have to wonder if midbass energy from the ports will be shadowed by the baffles of multiple splayed cabs. If you look at what's out there, most designs use a pair of triangular ports located in the areas of the baffle that are not taken up by the cone area.

                              Some people here seem to think they know better than John Meyer, who patented a trapezoidal arrayable speaker cabinet. I'd bet money that they don't, because John Meyer has sold quite a few more speakers. Comb filtering between HF sources will be minimized if you use a square rotatable horn flare with a 60x40 coverage pattern and rotate it so that the 40-degree pattern is oriented horizontally when running multiple cabinets in an array format. (When running single cabinets, use the horns with the 60-degree pattern oriented horizontally.) The ability to form arrays like this is one of the reasons for pattern-control horns on HF devices used in pro audio.
                              Best Regards,

                              Rory Buszka

                              Taterworks Audio

                              "The work of the individual still remains the spark which moves mankind ahead, even more than teamwork." - Igor I. Sikorsky

                              If it works, but you don't know why it works, then you haven't done any engineering.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Dual 12&quot; + 2&quot; Comp designs

                                Originally posted by Taterworks View Post
                                Boy oh boy, did this thread ever go off the rails.
                                Yes; Perhaps somewhere on the first page where the replies began attacking the design concept?

                                I totally agree with your paragraph on Meyer ( and his employees )
                                The Meyer Sound Design Reference is in my library.
                                Last edited by Sydney; 03-18-2012, 02:28 PM.
                                "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                                "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X