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ISO Project designer of: M6N 2-way (Greg) Published October 7

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  • ISO Project designer of: M6N 2-way (Greg) Published October 7

    Maybe I am thick....

    Ok, I admit it.

    I was just surfing the member projects here on PE and I realized a recent 2 way design posted by "Greg," using the
    HiVi M6N and the Dayton Audio RST28F-4 1-1/8", along with plenty of material to fabricate the cabinet....

    But I am not advanced enough to read the crossover info on the PE project page to be able to pick the components and create the circuit myself. I am plenty good at reading a schematic... and I am very slowly learning, but not that great just yet.

    So I am looking for a schematic / crossover BOM & schematic. If anyone out there feels like helping me out, I'd appreciate it. You guys always seem to have the knowledge at the ready and I always am grateful. Here is the link to the page PE published the project on....

    http://projectgallery.parts-express....cts/m6n-2-way/


    Any help is appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Spaker
    My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
    Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube DJTT Soundcloud

  • #2
    Just some observations (that may or may not be correct, due to either lack of info on project, or some bad assumptions on my part).
    I wouldn't feel too bad about not being able to recreate this project because:
    1- Using current mfr. T/S specs, using an M6N in the Denovo K.D. box, I'd tune it to mid 40s (2"id x 6" long port), NOT the mid 30s.
    2- This uses the "budget" Dayton "Silkie" 275-070, NOT the ref. series tweeter that you said "RST28F-4". Your bad.
    3- When someone says a tweeter and woofer (with the same SPL sensitivity) are a good match and won't require an L-pad, well... that's just wrong.
    4- From the snippet of paperwork in the XO shot, it LOOKs like the OP used (Harris) XO-Pro (which is NOT an accurate XO design suite).
    5- Another red flag is that THAT paper also shows a "Zobel" on the tweeter (which the Harris software typically does). Not a good idea normally.
    6- Doing a parts count on the XO (2 coils, 2 resistors, and 4 caps) leads me to believe that the tweeter filter is 2nd order w/a Zobel,
    and that the woofer filter is also 2nd order w/a Zobel. Zobels work well on woofers. On tweeters they don't apply ('cause there's no giant impedance
    rise over octaves and octaves like on a woofer). What a tweeter almost always NEEDs is attenuation, either by simple series resistance, or by an L-pad.

    Nothing wrong with the 275-070 silkie for a project like this.
    If you want to put these drivers in that Denovo box (if you want to build one yourself, the box dims are avail. here on PE's site), I'd tune to the mid 40s and
    line the interior walls.
    You'd probably be happy w/a different XO. I could do that for you.

    No disrespect intended.

    Comment


    • #3
      Always encouraging to see a new person willing to get into DIY, because there is a learning curve associated...but the rewards are endless (IMO). I would agree with Chris and if you look at the FR graph posted in the project page - it has a very large peak right at 1kHz - which will sound very forward and not be a relaxing speaker to listen to for very long.

      I would also take Chris up on his offer to design a XO for you - he is very good and I have built one of his designs and enjoyed it for almost 5 years.
      Paul

      The "SB's" build page
      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...-4-(pic-heavy)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bullittstang View Post
        I would also take Chris up on his offer to design a XO for you - he is very good and I have built one of his designs and enjoyed it for almost 5 years.
        +1.

        Comment


        • #5
          How about a crossover for the M6N and the RST28F?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
            Just some observations (that may or may not be correct, due to either lack of info on project, or some bad assumptions on my part).
            I wouldn't feel too bad about not being able to recreate this project ......
            ...
            ...
            ...

            You'd probably be happy w/a different XO. I could do that for you.

            No disrespect intended.
            WELL I NEVER!!

            You have dishonored my good name, sir and
            I DEMAND satisfaction!!
            Pistols at dawn!

            Please! In all seriousness, absolutely no disrespect taken. I do not pipe up here much at all, and only really ever browse when I am in search of ideas or have a burning question that I am sure has been thought of, posted and replied to at some point. That is MY bad: not really participating but leeching information as I please. I should be the one apologizing and asking to be excused. Since I do not say much, you don't know my skill level or abilities beyond my post above, which you seemed to examine and add your own skill and expertise, to which I am grateful. I am here to learn, get ideas, find new and cool products, and try to merge new tech that I am familiar with and see if I can come up with new and interesting ways to combine and utilize our newest age of music as data sounding better than ever, while a dramatic resurgence of older formats is in full swing. I find it an exciting time to be creating audio devices that are customized, better sounding than off the shelf consumer goods, are more robust and better made, and instill a pride ownership in home audio that I believe has been lost in recent decades. Maybe the experience is only in my little bubble, but I find that like minded music fans that are friends of mine are getting together more and more just as we did 20- 30 years ago, for the sole purpose of sitting and listening to music as a group, waiting to talk until the end, at which point, a discussion would emerge.Seems so foreign and weird to even admit we do this; it shouldn't be. We found ourselves getting together socially and it seemed that we had no real activity planned, so we would end up either eating and drinking or just drinking alcohol. Nobody has or had a problem. We also are all Dad's now and sort of grew out of shotgunning cans of beer, pointless "conversations" about who has the best sports team: in which the outcome of the winner is decided solely by the loudest argument in the least decipherable English. And I quit drinking a few years before the other guys, so for an extended period of time, I just stood there sober and listened to the sports yelling. So it's all good.

            I know what I don't know, and I am not afraid to say so... if you catch my drift. Anyway, I have been steadily fabricating speakers for a while now to have fun and give away. I haven't created much of anything to squawk about here with the likes of you guys, but my own relatives sure are impressed by a pair of desktop two-ways (for the home computer desk or bedroom TV) that I designed and fabricated myself. The past few years, it seems they all want integrated Bluetooth... and what better project to put cheap Chinese Bluetooth modules with questionable signal quality than into some smaller, inexpensive yet still somehow better sounding, a wider range, and more robust, rigid build quality than the electronics section at Walmart contact paper over 1/2" particle board nail gun staple fastened, adhesive slopped at the joints and ended up being held together by the contact paper stretched over the exterior surfaces, around the corners, holding the 90 degree corners as tightly as possible. So compared to that garbage, my stuff looks and sounds pretty high quality. And I haven't just rested on my laurels.

            I knew that I wanted more than a few pair of desktop speakers for a computer or kitchen radio. I've worked in PA rental for companies specializing in corporate, clean cut, jacket and tie operations. I've worked for down and dirty Lighting/ Staging and PA companies that were the epitome of "Rock and Roll," fly by the seat of your pants, go with what works until the lights go down and it is time to tear down and load the trucks. I've worked as an event producer, who only had to find the right PA / Lighting company for the touring act I was promoting, run the show on time, and pay the bills like the PA and Lighting company- and know the difference between a good operation with quality people and a garbage fly-by-night discount warehouse of stolen gear and ex-con riggers. . I've worked in Radio and Television commercially in all sorts of departments, some that put on those same type of concert events, where my basic knowledge of Sound and Lighting in a concert setting made my job a lot easier than if I were clueless on the subjects. I was also radio talent -a DJ is what we used to call ourselves- and have an insane amount encyclopedic type knowledge about the most iconic, popular, or otherwise historically significant to the world of music since about the time electricity spread to enough homes to hear music on their new mass communication electronic wizardry boxes: the Marconi wireless (radio.) I grew up without a lot of the expensive things I saw around the neighborhood, but one thing our house never lacked was music. My father played anything and everything. I don't just mean on the stereo... he PLAYED every instrument. My sister reminds me of an instrument or two I have forgotten about my Dad playing each time we reminisce on the topic of this list (of instruments our Dad bought, learned, played, and sold in order to buy something totally different.) From what I do remember, Dad played: Absolutely ICONIC Keyboard variations to include big brand, full 88 key size, single voice Electric Pianos, the Fender Rhodes,1980s era Synth Key mainstays and now legendary units like the Yamaha DX, the Roland SH101, and the Roland Juno. H eplayed a Fender Strat that was candy apple red, and he looked ridiculous with it. An accordion. Electric bass. Drums. Drums. Drums. More drums. We had a light rigged up to the landline in his drum room so he would know if the phone was ringing. Did I mention we lived a mile from the "World's Largest Music Store?" The House of Guitars. They were in the Guiness book for decades with that title. No vlue if it is still true, but they were happy to sell the old man any instrument ever invented if he asked about one. Music has been my entire life.

            When I settled down to have a family, I got off the road. Among other things. Ahem.

            And I casually picked this up. You guys are my encyclopedia and my inspirations and a lot of times, I just make what has been properly documented here because it's so damn good. Being in the local music community for so long means my friends are a lot of musicians. I have made those "Hitmaker" passive reference studio monitors over TWENTY TIMES. I lost count after the middle 20's.

            Some day I'll be good at coming up with a complex one on my own, but right now I love picking through the projects I see here and giving them a go. Thanks to all who share their projects and let others try them. There is a new class of folks online who aren't as kind and feel it is their right to charge for a design found in places like this, making me appreciate you guys more and more. Thanks

            Spaker
            Last edited by Spaker; 11-12-2019, 09:30 PM. Reason: hadnt finish post when published
            My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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            Comment


            • #7
              And a bonus question. I have a bunch of unfinished projects. I have a crossover designed but I am not confident in it. No, I am not showing you geniuses.

              Answer me this:

              2 Way HiVi M5a + Dayton ND20FA6
              in one of those 0.23 knock down cabinets

              What would the crossover you'd make for that look like.

              Abstensibly, they'd be "rears" in a 5.1 mounted pretty high up out of reach of little fingers with these:

              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


              Not sure if that matters much.

              And lastly, to port or not to port?

              I figured I'd try to be greedy with multiple questions now that you've given an inch....

              kidding. I appreciate all this.

              Spaker
              My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
              Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube DJTT Soundcloud

              Comment


              • #8
                Pretty hard to match up that metal-coned midbass (w/"junk" at 5.5 and 11kHz) and a small 3/4" tweeter that's not too comfortable much below 4kHz.
                It CAN be done (at a co$t), but it'd be easier to use an RS tweeter that can cross lower.
                Your box is a bit too small to port (and not really required for a surround). Closed, they should do 80Hz.

                Comment


                • #9
                  tough room. ok... ok....

                  I have some of the 275-095 " Dayton Audio AMT Mini-8 Air Motion Transformer Tweeter 8 Ohm " lying around I could make work. I really am trying to make use of all the stuff I've got. I think at one point, I was going to build "Swope" stuff and have a bunch of that, for example.
                  My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
                  Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube DJTT Soundcloud

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                  • #10
                    I doubt those would even go as low as the ND20s.
                    (Have you looked at the FR plot for those HiVis? Fairly ugly higher up.)
                    If you just want SOMEthing, w/NO BSC, a prominent upper-voice range, w/a bit of a hole above that - and an ND20 that won't blow up (IOW - not too flat), I could suggest something.
                    If you've got LOTs of xo parts you want to use up, it can be made flatter.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
                      I doubt those would even go as low as the ND20s.
                      (Have you looked at the FR plot for those HiVis? Fairly ugly higher up.)
                      If you just want SOMEthing, w/NO BSC, a prominent upper-voice range, w/a bit of a hole above that - and an ND20 that won't blow up (IOW - not too flat), I could suggest something.
                      If you've got LOTs of xo parts you want to use up, it can be made flatter.
                      I did see the FR on the HiVi and yep... it's gross. But I have them. And yeah, I have a lot of XO parts. I never have many inductors lying around like I do with the ridiculous stash of caps and resistors, but I do have a half dozen or so inductors anyway.

                      If you feel like trying to figure it out, I am game. I'm not opposed to spending a couple bucks to finish it, but I really have to just grind out cabinets and use up all the odds and ends I can. I am going to end up putting very discount woofers and tweeters together in two way cabinets with two to four part crossovers and handing them out at Christmas. That is a different project, but that is where I am going. Stacks and stacks of drivers in boxes, 75% finished cabinets, assembled crossovers that have never been used collecting dust: all DUMB.

                      I basically took inspiration using these for myself and as rears when I saw all the "Swope HT" stuff. If my idea is just plain stupid, I'll probably just actually build the Swope TM in these cabinets. It would be a matter of buying the inductors and tweeters. If that is the superior move to messing around with a tweeter that doesn't belong and I look stupid and don't know it, just say so. I see the same posts as you do on here. Some people just don't know anything yet and post "I have my brothers Trans Am trunk 2"s and these cabinets from Sears in 1981. How do I make a Dolby Atmos 11.2?" Looks silly, but they don't know that yet. So I might look ridiculous even considering pairing these two, and I just don't know it.

                      Or screw it and make a crossover.
                      My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
                      Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube DJTT Soundcloud

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                      • #12
                        What coils do you have?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Spaker View Post

                          I did see the FR on the HiVi and yep... it's gross. But I have them. And yeah, I have a lot of XO parts. I never have many inductors lying around like I do with the ridiculous stash of caps and resistors, but I do have a half dozen or so inductors anyway.

                          If you feel like trying to figure it out, I am game. I'm not opposed to spending a couple bucks to finish it, but I really have to just grind out cabinets and use up all the odds and ends I can. I am going to end up putting very discount woofers and tweeters together in two way cabinets with two to four part crossovers and handing them out at Christmas. That is a different project, but that is where I am going. Stacks and stacks of drivers in boxes, 75% finished cabinets, assembled crossovers that have never been used collecting dust: all DUMB.

                          I basically took inspiration using these for myself and as rears when I saw all the "Swope HT" stuff. If my idea is just plain stupid, I'll probably just actually build the Swope TM in these cabinets. It would be a matter of buying the inductors and tweeters. If that is the superior move to messing around with a tweeter that doesn't belong and I look stupid and don't know it, just say so. I see the same posts as you do on here. Some people just don't know anything yet and post "I have my brothers Trans Am trunk 2"s and these cabinets from Sears in 1981. How do I make a Dolby Atmos 11.2?" Looks silly, but they don't know that yet. So I might look ridiculous even considering pairing these two, and I just don't know it.

                          Or screw it and make a crossover.
                          If you were aiming for the Swope TM it uses the ND28 with that woofer and is well documented as far as construction and X-over. Did you buy the wrong tweeters? I built the
                          Swope TM and it sounds great but would need a Sub if you planned on using it for other than rears in a 5.1 set-up.

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
                            What coils do you have?



                            (4) 0.52mH

                            (2) 0.45mH

                            (2) 1.60mH

                            (2) 1.18mH

                            (1) 0.44mH

                            (1) 0.40mH

                            (2) 3.9mH



                            Originally posted by Squidspeak View Post


                            If you were aiming for the Swope TM it uses the ND28 with that woofer and is well documented as far as construction and X-over. Did you buy the wrong tweeters? I built the

                            Swope TM and it sounds great but would need a Sub if you planned on using it for other than rears in a 5.1 set-up.



                            I am aware of the documented Swope stuff. I did not set out to build them, so no, I did not buy the wrong tweeters. I simply have a cabinet built with the proper dimensions for the TM, as well as the right woofer.


                            If you read the thread, you would see that I am trying to get rid of parts, components and drivers that I have gathered over a period of years. Maybe I can cobble together something with stuff I have, maybe I will just build the actual Swope TM. That would mean buying more crossover parts and the tweeters: the opposite of “getting rid of stuff lying around.” Chris has offered to attempt a crossover design with what I do have lying around: a superpower I do not yet possess.


                            I am certain that any system with a “point one,” as in “5.1,” the “one” is the sub. A 7.1 is seven speakers and one sub. A 9.2 is nine surround speakers and two subwoofers. That is just how they shorthand the system description.


                            My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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                            • #15
                              Here we go (this is for the Dayton ND20 tweeter):

                              2nd order HP w/L-pad: 4uF series cap, 0.25mH shunt coil (to gnd), "L": SR = 4n / PR = 4n(ohms) - reverse polarity is indicated on tweeter - try it both ways

                              Woofer - "tanked" 3rd order: 1.6mH series coil (w/a "tiny" cap across it to act as a notch filter = 0.22uF), then a 4uF shunt cap (to gnd), lastly a 0.52mH series coil.

                              This runs around 83dB w/essentially NO baffle step comp. Fc near 3.7kHz. I think they'll be fine for surround (on wall) duties.

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