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ISO Project designer of: M6N 2-way (Greg) Published October 7

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  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
    Thank you wogg. I like the XO work, but not screwing w/drawing it out (except sometimes on paper w/pencil). I CAN scribble it out w/ MSPaint, but it ends up looking so embarrassing ! Spaker - no worries. It's not that complicated. I describe an XO (as if) drawn from left to right (which is amp to driver), this is sort of the "convention". You know cap values (uF), inductor/coils (mH), and resistors (ohms - or "n" as I like to call it) Both (lines to) the tweeter and woofer start at the amp (the "+" or red terminal, actually). SERIES components just mean that they are in the line (from the amp) to the speaker. SHUNT parts run (off that "series" line) to GROUND (the upside down triangle - or Xmas tree, if you will). All those gnd. points CAN be tied together (if you like). They all actually have to make their way back to the amp's "-" or black terminal.
    ok. ok. ok deserve the dummed down version. I asked for it for christ sakes. seriously. thanks for taking the time. now that you did, I will follow thru and build it. today (dec 20, 2019) is my kids last day of school before an ungodly SIXTEEN days off. Christmas and New Years falling on Wednesday's means our district all the sudden gets real about having any 1 or 2 day school weeks at either end of the holidays. But that means I need a very important thing to do during those 16 days, and cannot be bothered. I will act as if my work hinges on separating conjoined twins, attached at the forehead, with a single -but double size- brain. The twins will survive. The brain surgery is unprecedented in medicine. One twin will have their entire memory wiped, yet have the capacity, moving forward, to be Einstein level genius. The other twin will retain all information it has already, but ultimately grow to resent and even hate her much more interesting "genius" sister. She'll slowly poison her meals over a period of years. The genius twin will die and the world scientific community will mourn as one big family. The deceased twin academic publications and books will be celebrated at institutes for higher learning for decades. Her death will be chalked up to complications from her original separation surgery. But I will know the truth- that surgery was flawless. I will hire teams of investigators that all want to point to the sister, but on hunches and gut feeling alone, as there is no proof. On her deathbed, 57 years later, the surviving twin will whisper a few words to the priest the staff have summoned to administer her last rights. "I got all her money. I took all her men. I had the time of my life... and all I had to do for it was kill that bitch." Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

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  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by wogg View Post
    Here you go Spaker. As described by Chris. Click image for larger version

Name:	Schematic.PNG
Views:	155
Size:	6.1 KB
ID:	1425718
    Oh! oh! I can do THAT! No problemo. I read pictures real good. My reading of words no so good Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

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  • Chris Roemer
    replied
    Thank you wogg.

    I like the XO work, but not screwing w/drawing it out (except sometimes on paper w/pencil).
    I CAN scribble it out w/ MSPaint, but it ends up looking so embarrassing !

    Spaker - no worries. It's not that complicated. I describe an XO (as if) drawn from left to right (which is amp to driver), this is sort of the "convention".
    You know cap values (uF), inductor/coils (mH), and resistors (ohms - or "n" as I like to call it)
    Both (lines to) the tweeter and woofer start at the amp (the "+" or red terminal, actually).
    SERIES components just mean that they are in the line (from the amp) to the speaker.
    SHUNT parts run (off that "series" line) to GROUND (the upside down triangle - or Xmas tree, if you will). All those gnd. points CAN be tied together (if you like). They all actually have to make their way back to the amp's "-" or black terminal.

    Leave a comment:


  • wogg
    replied
    Here you go Spaker. As described by Chris.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Schematic.PNG
Views:	155
Size:	6.1 KB
ID:	1425718

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
    Here we go (this is for the Dayton ND20 tweeter):

    2nd order HP w/L-pad: 4uF series cap, 0.25mH shunt coil (to gnd), "L": SR = 4n / PR = 4n(ohms) - reverse polarity is indicated on tweeter - try it both ways

    Woofer - "tanked" 3rd order: 1.6mH series coil (w/a "tiny" cap across it to act as a notch filter = 0.22uF), then a 4uF shunt cap (to gnd), lastly a 0.52mH series coil.

    This runs around 83dB w/essentially NO baffle step comp. Fc near 3.7kHz. I think they'll be fine for surround (on wall) duties.
    Oh no. I am embarrassed now. I do not follow most of that. MY brain doesn't work this way. I can't read a description of a crossover like this and draw it out. I can follow a schematic, I have all of the necessary components... but that's about as far as I can go with this. Sorry to waste your time but we're obviously light years away from each other in ability here. I didn't want you to think I didn't appreciate it, because I do. I just can't build whatever it is you're describing here. Again... really sorry to waste your time and skills on my stupidity.

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  • Chris Roemer
    replied
    Here we go (this is for the Dayton ND20 tweeter):

    2nd order HP w/L-pad: 4uF series cap, 0.25mH shunt coil (to gnd), "L": SR = 4n / PR = 4n(ohms) - reverse polarity is indicated on tweeter - try it both ways

    Woofer - "tanked" 3rd order: 1.6mH series coil (w/a "tiny" cap across it to act as a notch filter = 0.22uF), then a 4uF shunt cap (to gnd), lastly a 0.52mH series coil.

    This runs around 83dB w/essentially NO baffle step comp. Fc near 3.7kHz. I think they'll be fine for surround (on wall) duties.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied

    Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
    What coils do you have?



    (4) 0.52mH

    (2) 0.45mH

    (2) 1.60mH

    (2) 1.18mH

    (1) 0.44mH

    (1) 0.40mH

    (2) 3.9mH



    Originally posted by Squidspeak View Post


    If you were aiming for the Swope TM it uses the ND28 with that woofer and is well documented as far as construction and X-over. Did you buy the wrong tweeters? I built the

    Swope TM and it sounds great but would need a Sub if you planned on using it for other than rears in a 5.1 set-up.



    I am aware of the documented Swope stuff. I did not set out to build them, so no, I did not buy the wrong tweeters. I simply have a cabinet built with the proper dimensions for the TM, as well as the right woofer.


    If you read the thread, you would see that I am trying to get rid of parts, components and drivers that I have gathered over a period of years. Maybe I can cobble together something with stuff I have, maybe I will just build the actual Swope TM. That would mean buying more crossover parts and the tweeters: the opposite of “getting rid of stuff lying around.” Chris has offered to attempt a crossover design with what I do have lying around: a superpower I do not yet possess.


    I am certain that any system with a “point one,” as in “5.1,” the “one” is the sub. A 7.1 is seven speakers and one sub. A 9.2 is nine surround speakers and two subwoofers. That is just how they shorthand the system description.


    Leave a comment:


  • Squidspeak
    replied
    Originally posted by Spaker View Post

    I did see the FR on the HiVi and yep... it's gross. But I have them. And yeah, I have a lot of XO parts. I never have many inductors lying around like I do with the ridiculous stash of caps and resistors, but I do have a half dozen or so inductors anyway.

    If you feel like trying to figure it out, I am game. I'm not opposed to spending a couple bucks to finish it, but I really have to just grind out cabinets and use up all the odds and ends I can. I am going to end up putting very discount woofers and tweeters together in two way cabinets with two to four part crossovers and handing them out at Christmas. That is a different project, but that is where I am going. Stacks and stacks of drivers in boxes, 75% finished cabinets, assembled crossovers that have never been used collecting dust: all DUMB.

    I basically took inspiration using these for myself and as rears when I saw all the "Swope HT" stuff. If my idea is just plain stupid, I'll probably just actually build the Swope TM in these cabinets. It would be a matter of buying the inductors and tweeters. If that is the superior move to messing around with a tweeter that doesn't belong and I look stupid and don't know it, just say so. I see the same posts as you do on here. Some people just don't know anything yet and post "I have my brothers Trans Am trunk 2"s and these cabinets from Sears in 1981. How do I make a Dolby Atmos 11.2?" Looks silly, but they don't know that yet. So I might look ridiculous even considering pairing these two, and I just don't know it.

    Or screw it and make a crossover.
    If you were aiming for the Swope TM it uses the ND28 with that woofer and is well documented as far as construction and X-over. Did you buy the wrong tweeters? I built the
    Swope TM and it sounds great but would need a Sub if you planned on using it for other than rears in a 5.1 set-up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Roemer
    replied
    What coils do you have?

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
    I doubt those would even go as low as the ND20s.
    (Have you looked at the FR plot for those HiVis? Fairly ugly higher up.)
    If you just want SOMEthing, w/NO BSC, a prominent upper-voice range, w/a bit of a hole above that - and an ND20 that won't blow up (IOW - not too flat), I could suggest something.
    If you've got LOTs of xo parts you want to use up, it can be made flatter.
    I did see the FR on the HiVi and yep... it's gross. But I have them. And yeah, I have a lot of XO parts. I never have many inductors lying around like I do with the ridiculous stash of caps and resistors, but I do have a half dozen or so inductors anyway.

    If you feel like trying to figure it out, I am game. I'm not opposed to spending a couple bucks to finish it, but I really have to just grind out cabinets and use up all the odds and ends I can. I am going to end up putting very discount woofers and tweeters together in two way cabinets with two to four part crossovers and handing them out at Christmas. That is a different project, but that is where I am going. Stacks and stacks of drivers in boxes, 75% finished cabinets, assembled crossovers that have never been used collecting dust: all DUMB.

    I basically took inspiration using these for myself and as rears when I saw all the "Swope HT" stuff. If my idea is just plain stupid, I'll probably just actually build the Swope TM in these cabinets. It would be a matter of buying the inductors and tweeters. If that is the superior move to messing around with a tweeter that doesn't belong and I look stupid and don't know it, just say so. I see the same posts as you do on here. Some people just don't know anything yet and post "I have my brothers Trans Am trunk 2"s and these cabinets from Sears in 1981. How do I make a Dolby Atmos 11.2?" Looks silly, but they don't know that yet. So I might look ridiculous even considering pairing these two, and I just don't know it.

    Or screw it and make a crossover.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris Roemer
    replied
    I doubt those would even go as low as the ND20s.
    (Have you looked at the FR plot for those HiVis? Fairly ugly higher up.)
    If you just want SOMEthing, w/NO BSC, a prominent upper-voice range, w/a bit of a hole above that - and an ND20 that won't blow up (IOW - not too flat), I could suggest something.
    If you've got LOTs of xo parts you want to use up, it can be made flatter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied
    tough room. ok... ok....

    I have some of the 275-095 " Dayton Audio AMT Mini-8 Air Motion Transformer Tweeter 8 Ohm " lying around I could make work. I really am trying to make use of all the stuff I've got. I think at one point, I was going to build "Swope" stuff and have a bunch of that, for example.

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  • Chris Roemer
    replied
    Pretty hard to match up that metal-coned midbass (w/"junk" at 5.5 and 11kHz) and a small 3/4" tweeter that's not too comfortable much below 4kHz.
    It CAN be done (at a co$t), but it'd be easier to use an RS tweeter that can cross lower.
    Your box is a bit too small to port (and not really required for a surround). Closed, they should do 80Hz.

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  • Spaker
    replied
    And a bonus question. I have a bunch of unfinished projects. I have a crossover designed but I am not confident in it. No, I am not showing you geniuses.

    Answer me this:

    2 Way HiVi M5a + Dayton ND20FA6
    in one of those 0.23 knock down cabinets

    What would the crossover you'd make for that look like.

    Abstensibly, they'd be "rears" in a 5.1 mounted pretty high up out of reach of little fingers with these:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


    Not sure if that matters much.

    And lastly, to port or not to port?

    I figured I'd try to be greedy with multiple questions now that you've given an inch....

    kidding. I appreciate all this.

    Spaker

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
    Just some observations (that may or may not be correct, due to either lack of info on project, or some bad assumptions on my part).
    I wouldn't feel too bad about not being able to recreate this project ......
    ...
    ...
    ...

    You'd probably be happy w/a different XO. I could do that for you.

    No disrespect intended.
    WELL I NEVER!!

    You have dishonored my good name, sir and
    I DEMAND satisfaction!!
    Pistols at dawn!

    Please! In all seriousness, absolutely no disrespect taken. I do not pipe up here much at all, and only really ever browse when I am in search of ideas or have a burning question that I am sure has been thought of, posted and replied to at some point. That is MY bad: not really participating but leeching information as I please. I should be the one apologizing and asking to be excused. Since I do not say much, you don't know my skill level or abilities beyond my post above, which you seemed to examine and add your own skill and expertise, to which I am grateful. I am here to learn, get ideas, find new and cool products, and try to merge new tech that I am familiar with and see if I can come up with new and interesting ways to combine and utilize our newest age of music as data sounding better than ever, while a dramatic resurgence of older formats is in full swing. I find it an exciting time to be creating audio devices that are customized, better sounding than off the shelf consumer goods, are more robust and better made, and instill a pride ownership in home audio that I believe has been lost in recent decades. Maybe the experience is only in my little bubble, but I find that like minded music fans that are friends of mine are getting together more and more just as we did 20- 30 years ago, for the sole purpose of sitting and listening to music as a group, waiting to talk until the end, at which point, a discussion would emerge.Seems so foreign and weird to even admit we do this; it shouldn't be. We found ourselves getting together socially and it seemed that we had no real activity planned, so we would end up either eating and drinking or just drinking alcohol. Nobody has or had a problem. We also are all Dad's now and sort of grew out of shotgunning cans of beer, pointless "conversations" about who has the best sports team: in which the outcome of the winner is decided solely by the loudest argument in the least decipherable English. And I quit drinking a few years before the other guys, so for an extended period of time, I just stood there sober and listened to the sports yelling. So it's all good.

    I know what I don't know, and I am not afraid to say so... if you catch my drift. Anyway, I have been steadily fabricating speakers for a while now to have fun and give away. I haven't created much of anything to squawk about here with the likes of you guys, but my own relatives sure are impressed by a pair of desktop two-ways (for the home computer desk or bedroom TV) that I designed and fabricated myself. The past few years, it seems they all want integrated Bluetooth... and what better project to put cheap Chinese Bluetooth modules with questionable signal quality than into some smaller, inexpensive yet still somehow better sounding, a wider range, and more robust, rigid build quality than the electronics section at Walmart contact paper over 1/2" particle board nail gun staple fastened, adhesive slopped at the joints and ended up being held together by the contact paper stretched over the exterior surfaces, around the corners, holding the 90 degree corners as tightly as possible. So compared to that garbage, my stuff looks and sounds pretty high quality. And I haven't just rested on my laurels.

    I knew that I wanted more than a few pair of desktop speakers for a computer or kitchen radio. I've worked in PA rental for companies specializing in corporate, clean cut, jacket and tie operations. I've worked for down and dirty Lighting/ Staging and PA companies that were the epitome of "Rock and Roll," fly by the seat of your pants, go with what works until the lights go down and it is time to tear down and load the trucks. I've worked as an event producer, who only had to find the right PA / Lighting company for the touring act I was promoting, run the show on time, and pay the bills like the PA and Lighting company- and know the difference between a good operation with quality people and a garbage fly-by-night discount warehouse of stolen gear and ex-con riggers. . I've worked in Radio and Television commercially in all sorts of departments, some that put on those same type of concert events, where my basic knowledge of Sound and Lighting in a concert setting made my job a lot easier than if I were clueless on the subjects. I was also radio talent -a DJ is what we used to call ourselves- and have an insane amount encyclopedic type knowledge about the most iconic, popular, or otherwise historically significant to the world of music since about the time electricity spread to enough homes to hear music on their new mass communication electronic wizardry boxes: the Marconi wireless (radio.) I grew up without a lot of the expensive things I saw around the neighborhood, but one thing our house never lacked was music. My father played anything and everything. I don't just mean on the stereo... he PLAYED every instrument. My sister reminds me of an instrument or two I have forgotten about my Dad playing each time we reminisce on the topic of this list (of instruments our Dad bought, learned, played, and sold in order to buy something totally different.) From what I do remember, Dad played: Absolutely ICONIC Keyboard variations to include big brand, full 88 key size, single voice Electric Pianos, the Fender Rhodes,1980s era Synth Key mainstays and now legendary units like the Yamaha DX, the Roland SH101, and the Roland Juno. H eplayed a Fender Strat that was candy apple red, and he looked ridiculous with it. An accordion. Electric bass. Drums. Drums. Drums. More drums. We had a light rigged up to the landline in his drum room so he would know if the phone was ringing. Did I mention we lived a mile from the "World's Largest Music Store?" The House of Guitars. They were in the Guiness book for decades with that title. No vlue if it is still true, but they were happy to sell the old man any instrument ever invented if he asked about one. Music has been my entire life.

    When I settled down to have a family, I got off the road. Among other things. Ahem.

    And I casually picked this up. You guys are my encyclopedia and my inspirations and a lot of times, I just make what has been properly documented here because it's so damn good. Being in the local music community for so long means my friends are a lot of musicians. I have made those "Hitmaker" passive reference studio monitors over TWENTY TIMES. I lost count after the middle 20's.

    Some day I'll be good at coming up with a complex one on my own, but right now I love picking through the projects I see here and giving them a go. Thanks to all who share their projects and let others try them. There is a new class of folks online who aren't as kind and feel it is their right to charge for a design found in places like this, making me appreciate you guys more and more. Thanks

    Spaker
    Last edited by Spaker; 11-12-2019, 08:30 PM. Reason: hadnt finish post when published

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