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  • Zalytron


    It has been a while since I've been to Zalytron's web site. I went there today and noticed they offer a line array called "Axon 812 Array" that uses dome tweeters. Has anyone made this kit or heard it? The tweeters look like they have a wide c-t-c so I believe there will be quite a bit of comb filtering>

  • #2
    Re: Zalytron


    > It has been a while since I've been to
    > Zalytron's web site. I went there today and
    > noticed they offer a line array called
    > "Axon 812 Array" that uses dome
    > tweeters. Has anyone made this kit or heard
    > it? The tweeters look like they have a wide
    > c-t-c so I believe there will be quite a bit
    > of comb filtering>

    It can be overcome by EQ if there are enough tweeters since there will just be a tail down of the highest frequencies.

    Not the optimal line array . . .
    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


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    • #3
      Re: Zalytron


      Interesting FR plot for the midbass...
      <A HREF="http://www.zalytron.com/pictures/Axon6S1.pdf">http://www.zalytron.com/pictures/Axon6S1.pdf</A>

      IB subwoofer FAQ

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      • #4
        Re: Zalytron


        > Interesting FR plot for the midbass...
        >
        > <A HREF="http://www.zalytron.com/pictures/Axon6S1.pdf">http://www.zalytron.com/pictures/Axon6S1.pdf</A>

        Bit of wierdness around 300Hz, but otherwise not bad.
        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong

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        • #5
          Re: Zalytron


          I'm not certain, but I'd guess that Joe D'Appolito designed these. He did the original Axon Array, which was criticized by some as not being a true line array, since it only used 4 tweeters. I'm guessing the 812 was the response to that claim, in that it now is much closer to a "true" line array. I'm sure there are still some who will claim that there are deficiencies in the design, such as the wide CTC spacing of the tweeters. How bad those comb filtering issues would be in-room is probably debatable.

          If we go on the assumption that Joe designed these speakers, I'd say the chances are very good that combing effects have been minimized, or at least compensated for in the design. (Joe has done a bunch of other line arrays for Zalytron, so I think it's reasonable to think he did the 812's, although I can't find any concrete proof). For the money, it's probably among the least expensive PASSIVE line array designs out there.

          Jason

          > It has been a while since I've been to
          > Zalytron's web site. I went there today and
          > noticed they offer a line array called
          > "Axon 812 Array" that uses dome
          > tweeters. Has anyone made this kit or heard
          > it? The tweeters look like they have a wide
          > c-t-c so I believe there will be quite a bit
          > of comb filtering>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Zalytron


            They look like more than 3 inches center to center. Combing will start at 4500hz. Its gonna be really hard to tune out the combing effects of that even with a digital equalizer. And depending on the cross, the horizontal combing may be a bear also.

            I crossposted with someone who designed an array without reference to the combing effects in a line array. He kept talking about how his treble seemed dull, and at times even kind of warbly.

            Why someone would build something like this without any reference to the physics of multiple drivers in a line is beyond me. Maybe if it looks great is is great principle.

            Marlboro

            > It can be overcome by EQ if there are enough
            > tweeters since there will just be a tail
            > down of the highest frequencies.

            > Not the optimal line array . . .

            The Calipso Line Array System: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/album.php?albumid=9

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            • #7
              Re: Zalytron


              I'd like to know how one can compensate for comb filtering. Its a physical property of what happens when the speakers in a line are too far apart.

              You might be able to adjust it with a equalizer, but its not a simple add or subtract, it looks like fingers in a hand, and most of the dips are the biggies.

              More than likely Joe D"appolito simply didn't bother to research it, and didn't come across Dr. Griffin's paper. Or, he designed it before Jim discovered the physics involved, about three years ago.

              Its one thing to use less expensive speakers in the design. Its quite another to ignore the fundamental physics of line sources.

              Marlboro
              The Calipso Line Array System: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/album.php?albumid=9

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Zalytron


                > I'd like to know how one can compensate for
                > comb filtering. Its a physical property of
                > what happens when the speakers in a line are
                > too far apart.

                What does comb filtering sound like to you? Have you really heard enough speakers to be able to evaluate the importance of this particular issue of theoretical physics and how it impacts the sound of the speaker?

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                • #9
                  Re: Zalytron


                  Its like this:

                  I'm not interested in building a speaker system that costs me $1000, and not follow appropriate building methods. I don't have a huge amount of disposable income to fool around with.

                  When I build things, speakers or whatever, I look for the best information about what works and what doesn't. I listen to people who have done what I want to do many times, and I follow their advice.

                  Dr. Jim Griffin is someone who has not only researched these issues scientifically, and has the academic credentials to do so, but who has built arrays not paying attention to combing and compared them with those that have.

                  I choose to follow his advice as closely as I can. I don't have the money to tear it down and start again if I don't like it. Other people are welcome to choose to ignore his advice or to try things out for themselves.

                  You're arguing with the wrong person about this. Contact Jim Griffin, PhD, and argue with him about it.

                  Marlboro
                  The Calipso Line Array System: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/album.php?albumid=9

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Zalytron


                    > I'd like to know how one can compensate for
                    > comb filtering. Its a physical property of
                    > what happens when the speakers in a line are
                    > too far apart.

                    > You might be able to adjust it with a
                    > equalizer, but its not a simple add or
                    > subtract, it looks like fingers in a hand,
                    > and most of the dips are the biggies.

                    > More than likely Joe D"appolito simply
                    > didn't bother to research it, and didn't
                    > come across Dr. Griffin's paper. Or, he
                    > designed it before Jim discovered the
                    > physics involved, about three years ago.

                    > Its one thing to use less expensive speakers
                    > in the design. Its quite another to ignore
                    > the fundamental physics of line sources.

                    Marlboro,

                    Comb lining will dull the highs and will be most noticeable in the lack of air (dull highs) especially as you move off axis. Essentially, the high frequencies are rolled off as the ensemble of the tweeter outputs don't add up but start to cancel. Now the ear is less sensitive in the upper octave (10-20 kHz) you may not observe the full impact of this effect. But if you compare to an array that is properly designed, then there is no comparison as the proper array will yield a more airy (and accurate) sound.

                    Finally, these Zalytron arrays have been 'engineered' to sell inexpensive drivers sold by guess who--Zalytron of course. The tweeter line is a severe compromise to reach the price point for this designs. The tweeter line is too short and the tweeters too far apart to crete good sound.

                    Bottom line is that this is a flawed design but some people might purchase it just because of its cost. For me I would save my money and get a better design that avoids these issues.

                    Jim

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                    • #11
                      Re: Zalytron


                      OK. I hear you. IMO and E, comb filtering is one of those matters that people are very technical and serious about, but that turn out to be not QUITE as serious in practical effect. Like diffraction from sharp cabinet edges, stuffing vented boxes. UNLIKE baffle step and other things. Listening first is obviously always preferable.

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