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Yay.. I won! A Pair of Dayton Audio DSA315-8

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  • Yay.. I won! A Pair of Dayton Audio DSA315-8

    Dayton Audio DSA315-8 12" Designer Series Aluminum Cone Woofer

    I don't know what to do with them yet.
    BUT, if somebody wants to help design a 3 way speaker, I would most appreciative and happy.
    Statement Monitors

    Duratex is your friend

  • #2
    Congrats. I was just modeling that woofer for fun but didn't really put any effort into a mid or tweet as of yet. It's looking like an old school 3-way: a 2.5ft3 vented box tuned to 32hz (3"x5.5" PVC port) yields an F3 ~32hz. Holds excursion under xmax above 27hz to 110w (120w shouldn't be an issue). Great for music, HT could be an issue with excursion at max power but your at 110dB by then, doubtful you're watching video at that volume inside. It's FR graph shows cone breakup is fairly high up supporting the 20hz-2000hz usable freq. spec on the PE page. Should be easy to match many different mids.

    Comment


    • #3
      My $0.02... MTMW... use a pair of Dayton ND140-8 mids, paired with a RS28 tweeter. It would be magical sounding. Total cost for the mids and tweeters would be $230 (plus xover components).
      "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
      "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
        My $0.02... MTMW... use a pair of Dayton ND140-8 mids, paired with a RS28 tweeter. It would be magical sounding. Total cost for the mids and tweeters would be $230 (plus xover components).
        Yes, MTMW.

        But I was thinking more along the lines of 4 ohm mids in series to try and match up with the DSA315's 90dB sensitivity and power handling, keep it a nominal 8 ohm speaker and cross above a point were baffle step is a non issue for the mids.

        Educate me?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Millstonemike View Post
          Congrats. I was just modeling that woofer for fun but didn't really put any effort into a mid or tweet as of yet. It's looking like an old school 3-way: a 2.5ft3 vented box tuned to 32hz (3"x5.5" PVC port) yields an F3 ~32hz. Holds excursion under xmax above 27hz to 110w (120w shouldn't be an issue). Great for music, HT could be an issue with excursion at max power but your at 110dB by then, doubtful you're watching video at that volume inside. It's FR graph shows cone breakup is fairly high up supporting the 20hz-2000hz usable freq. spec on the PE page. Should be easy to match many different mids.
          What would the the dimensions of a 2.5ft3 vented box be?
          Statement Monitors

          Duratex is your friend

          Comment


          • #6
            For one example, the box could be 1 foot square and 2.5 feet high, or a variety of H x W x D dimensions that would enclose 4320 cubic inches of volume.
            Paul

            Originally posted by Steven72555 View Post

            What would the the dimensions of a 2.5ft3 vented box be?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Millstonemike View Post
              Yes, MTMW.

              But I was thinking more along the lines of 4 ohm mids in series to try and match up with the DSA315's 90dB sensitivity and power handling, keep it a nominal 8 ohm speaker and cross above a point were baffle step is a non issue for the mids.

              Educate me?

              Baffle step is not always an issue if the lower driver has a slow roll off, especially with big speakers that tend to be put closer to the walls. BSC is more needed for a stand mounted speaker out in the open. The room itself and room placement would really determine more of this.

              If they are out from the walls and in the open, you don't need near as strong of a midrange, maybe 84-86db with that woofer. If I were building them for one room and out in the open placement, I probably wouldn't use an MTM, but simply a TMW. If I thought I might use the speakers in several locations and needed them to be more versatile, I'd use either a single louder mid, or an MTM and put variable L-pad's on the mids and tweeters. These days everyone knocks variable L-pad's but the reason why old monkey coffins had them was so you could adjust for room placement. You cannot always put big speakers in the perfect spot like you can a pair of little stand mounted monitors. The trade off for that big sound is more effort in placement and tuning, but the effort is well worth it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by make_some_noise View Post


                Baffle step is not always an issue if the lower driver has a slow roll off, especially with big speakers that tend to be put closer to the walls. BSC is more needed for a stand mounted speaker out in the open. The room itself and room placement would really determine more of this.

                If they are out from the walls and in the open, you don't need near as strong of a midrange, maybe 84-86db with that woofer. If I were building them for one room and out in the open placement, I probably wouldn't use an MTM, but simply a TMW. If I thought I might use the speakers in several locations and needed them to be more versatile, I'd use either a single louder mid, or an MTM and put variable L-pad's on the mids and tweeters. These days everyone knocks variable L-pad's but the reason why old monkey coffins had them was so you could adjust for room placement. You cannot always put big speakers in the perfect spot like you can a pair of little stand mounted monitors. The trade off for that big sound is more effort in placement and tuning, but the effort is well worth it.
                Makes sense to me. These woofers want a big, vented box ... doubtful they'll be out in the open.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Steven72555 View Post

                  What would the the dimensions of a 2.5ft3 vented box be?
                  Hang on a bit .... the 2.5ft3 is just for the woofer. You also need to factor in volume for the port, the woofer, the volume taken up by the mid(s) enclosure inside the overall cabinet and any internal bracing. And the height and width (e.g., front baffle dimensions) has a significant affect on the sound as does the driver location on the baffle. And, the thickness of the enclosure material (e.g., 3/4") will make the outside dimensions 1.5" larger than the internal dimensions.

                  The model below (just the woofer and a mid from my data pool - not fully modeled) used a 14" wide by 30" high baffle with the woofer centered L-R and the center of the woofer 12" above the bottom. Currently, this has a full 6dB of baffle step correction. I have another post to determine how room gain will alter this model.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just for clarification I assumed Steven 72555 would understand the dimensions I stated were not meant to include volumes consumed by woofer, port, etc, just an example of what the dimensions would be for that volume amount.
                    Paul

                    Originally posted by Millstonemike View Post
                    Hang on a bit .... the 2.5ft3 is just for the woofer. You also need to factor in volume for the port, the woofer, the volume taken up by the mid(s) enclosure inside the overall cabinet and any internal bracing. And the height and width (e.g., front baffle dimensions) has a significant affect on the sound as does the driver location on the baffle. And, the thickness of the enclosure material (e.g., 3/4") will make the outside dimensions 1.5" larger than the internal dimensions.

                    The model below (just the woofer and a mid from my data pool - not fully modeled) used a 14" wide by 30" high baffle with the woofer centered L-R and the center of the woofer 12" above the bottom. Currently, this has a full 6dB of baffle step correction. I have another post to determine how room gain will alter this model.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                      Just for clarification I assumed Steven 72555 would understand the dimensions I stated were not meant to include volumes consumed by woofer, port, etc, just an example of what the dimensions would be for that volume amount.
                      Paul


                      Yes, I got it.
                      But, I am still open for near accurate suggestions for a new build with thee new woofers.
                      Statement Monitors

                      Duratex is your friend

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Millstonemike View Post
                        Yes, MTMW.

                        But I was thinking more along the lines of 4 ohm mids in series to try and match up with the DSA315's 90dB sensitivity and power handling, keep it a nominal 8 ohm speaker and cross above a point were baffle step is a non issue for the mids.

                        Educate me?
                        What xover point is baffle step not an issue for the mids?

                        This would/could be a very long discussion regarding baffle step loss/compensation with differing opinions... but here's my take on it... IMO, you probably could get away with a single 4 ohm ND140 (88 db) vs a pair of 8 ohm ND140s (about 90 db)... but it would be close. If you look at the response of the Dayton 12" woofer, and if those measurements are accurate, it looks to me like 90 db is pretty spot on for the bass frequencies. My fear going with a single 4 ohm (which, looking at it's response, it's more like 85 db in the range you'd use it) would be that it might sound bass heavy... which isn't necessarily a problem depending on who you are . Going with 2 of the 8 ohm mids would for sure work, but you would need to pad the mid down a little. So... try it with a single 4 ohm and hope for the best (probably would work), or go with a pair of 8 ohms in a MTM and have less distortion for an addition $60 in the build cost.

                        How much BSC needs to be added (like make some noise said) will depend on where you plan on putting these in the room. If it were me, I'd go with a pair of 8 ohm ND140s, just because I'll have a LOT of options that way. Looking at measurements I'd guess I'd cross woofer to mid around 350 (maybe a little higher?), and mid to tweeter anywhere between 2k and 3.5k (depending on what I liked more).

                        Originally posted by Steven72555 View Post

                        Yes, I got it.
                        But, I am still open for near accurate suggestions for a new build with thee new woofers.
                        You'll need to give more info. What's your budget and what exactly do you want?
                        "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                        "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post


                          How much BSC needs to be added (like make some noise said) will depend on where you plan on putting these in the room. If it were me, I'd go with a pair of 8 ohm ND140s, just because I'll have a LOT of options that way. Looking at measurements I'd guess I'd cross woofer to mid around 350 (maybe a little higher?), and mid to tweeter anywhere between 2k and 3.5k (depending on what I liked more).
                          A 14" wide baffle would have baffle step issues at about 325hz. If using 2nd order or higher slopes I would probably use 350hz and 3.5k myself. If you can afford it, a pair of the ND140's would be best if you are going to have them up against the walls and you can just pad the mids and tweeters if they are used out into the room. I wouldn't mess with a BSC circuit if crossing near 325-350hz. The reason is because baffle step will not even affect the mids and tweeters so you only need to quiet them down to balance with the woofer if the speaker is moved away form the walls..

                          My thoughts on a single mid for speakers out in the room, was for the reasoning that if you pick the right crossover point you won't need to worry about BSC and would need little to no padding to be reasonably balanced. If you know that out in the room you are going to loose about 6db of sound below 325hz, then simply make the mid and tweeter 6db less than what the woofer would be doing had it been up by the wall. A single mid would put you in the -6db ballpark. If one knew they were going to be using the speakers out in the open and budget was an issue, not needing to buy two drivers might be helpful. Ultimately though I would stick to two mids and use variable l-pads on the mids and tweeters to make them super versatile. That is also the most expensive route.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post

                            What xover point is baffle step not an issue for the mids?

                            This would/could be a very long discussion regarding baffle step loss/compensation with differing opinions... but here's my take on it... IMO, you probably could get away with a single 4 ohm ND140 (88 db) vs a pair of 8 ohm ND140s (about 90 db)... but it would be close. If you look at the response of the Dayton 12" woofer, and if those measurements are accurate, it looks to me like 90 db is pretty spot on for the bass frequencies. My fear going with a single 4 ohm (which, looking at it's response, it's more like 85 db in the range you'd use it) would be that it might sound bass heavy... which isn't necessarily a problem depending on who you are . Going with 2 of the 8 ohm mids would for sure work, but you would need to pad the mid down a little. So... try it with a single 4 ohm and hope for the best (probably would work), or go with a pair of 8 ohms in a MTM and have less distortion for an addition $60 in the build cost.

                            How much BSC needs to be added (like make some noise said) will depend on where you plan on putting these in the room. If it were me, I'd go with a pair of 8 ohm ND140s, just because I'll have a LOT of options that way. Looking at measurements I'd guess I'd cross woofer to mid around 350 (maybe a little higher?), and mid to tweeter anywhere between 2k and 3.5k (depending on what I liked more).



                            You'll need to give more info. What's your budget and what exactly do you want?
                            My budget isn't really an issue at this point, although I am not out to buy real high end mids and tweeters.

                            What I want are speakers that make my music sound good. The speakers won't be used for movies. I am a music guy.
                            They will be placed as close to walls as the ports will allow.
                            Statement Monitors

                            Duratex is your friend

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Steven72555 View Post

                              My budget isn't really an issue at this point, although I am not out to buy real high end mids and tweeters.

                              What I want are speakers that make my music sound good. The speakers won't be used for movies. I am a music guy.
                              They will be placed as close to walls as the ports will allow.
                              Hopefully you get more suggestions, there's a million options. I've always wanted to use the ND140, and that's because I've heard the ND90 and liked it's midrange presence, and a well respected DIY builder used the ND140 and loved it. Plus, IMO, aesthetically it would look good as well. So... take it with a grain of salt, but that's just my opinion. And tweeters... you probably have a million+ options there too (I would actually use the Vifa XT25TG30 instead of the RS28).

                              And I didn't model your woofer, but based on PE's recommendation, having a f3 of 35 Hz is great for music (IMO), and 2.25 cubic feet isn't a very big box at all, so aesthetically you'll have a lot of options for designing a cabinet as well. If you want to play with numbers... 12 x 12 x 12 is 1 cf... 24 x 12 x 12 is 2 cubic feet. So, for example, if you did a cabinet that was internally 24" tall x 12" wide x 14" deep, you would have 2.3 cubic feet, which would work great for your woofer. You could build the mid/tweeter cabinet on top of that. Millstone brought up deducting for bracing and woofer... and unless you go insane with bracing, the woofer's displacement and the space the bracing takes up is basically a non-issue.
                              "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                              "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

                              Comment

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