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Official MWAF 2017 Thread - RESULTS ARE POSTED

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  • Originally posted by bcodemz View Post

    Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement. And yes Kevin you were the one I was most worried about letting down. It relieves me to know you weren't disappointed. It is indeed unfortunate that more people couldn't hear what we heard in the hotel meeting room afterwards. After everyone left I stayed till 2am listening to music on them. It sounded so much better than my living room that I couldn't stop listening.

    As good as they sounded in the hotel room, I've only scratched the surface. It is possible to recreate the processing I had on them with a complex and exceedingly expensive passive crossover. Even the bass boost can be done because there was no limiter. I'll be adding a number of *well-implemented* DSP magic sauce to them to achieve a whole another level of performance that no passive crossover cannot hope to do. Next time it'll be something special.

    On a few other issues, here's my 2 cents.

    The judge's score should stay the same way at 75%. The audience is not in the sweet spot, and will hear very differently than the judges. We're all listening very off axis, and likely there are a number of people blocking the tweeter. Also, a lesser known problem is that the room is long enough to have audible high frequency loss due to atmospheric absorption, which will favor overtly bright speakers.

    In terms of music, I think it should be increased to 4 minutes. The additional minute should be for a 4th song that is well known for most people (i.e., stereotypical audiophile songs). It is very difficult to judge a speaker with music we've never heard. By having a well known song in the mix, people will have a reference to compare to.

    I think the band limited pink noise is a great idea. I'm not sure why there are still volume inconsistencies as this should have minimized them. One thing I suspect is that the mic was facing straight instead of facing directly at one speaker. Speakers that have narrow dispersion or acoustical lobing in the 1-4KHz range may measure lower than they really are. One thing I suggest would be to have the pink noise in a separate track instead of being in the beginning of the first track. Now you can have a much longer pink noise. Chris doesn't have to constantly repeat the beginning of the tracks for the pink noise and can focus better on the calibration process. Instead of pink noise in the beginning of the first track, it should be replaced with silence to give Chris enough time to walk away after the calibration process.

    Good suggestion about the pink noise being a separate track. It was a great show overall, but the one problem that really stuck out to me was the huge discrepancy between the pink noise and the music tracks, especially during the Dayton category. I looked at the laptop while the music was playing during my entry, as well as the entry before mine. The meter was consistently hitting between 94 and 95dB. Not a huge issue, I suppose, since the volume has historically been quite low at these events, but it does beg the question of why have a pink noise level-setting process at all when the music tracks are normalized 10 to 15dB higher than the reference?
    Eric L.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 300Z View Post
      Any more details about that Big Cardboard Horn project?
      Under each soup can is an Aura AS3-75-8F wide-range 3" driver. Sixteen of them, total, mounted in pairs, with a compression chamber sandwiched between. Each pair drives an exponential horn cut from styrofoam board for its first 11 inches (see photo in post #13). Each horn is continued through a cardboard barrel that combines the eight horns in an output about 21" in diameter.

      A 30x60-degree waveguide, with 39"x58" mouth, on the front controls dispersion in the horizontal down to around 250Hz. The 21" throat starts to beam down the middle of the waveguide around 1KHz, so directivity is controlled for only the 2 octaves 250-1,000Hz.

      The result has a domed frequency response with its top around 630Hz. Usable output down to 30Hz, if you don't play it too loud.

      Tweeter mounted in the flange of the waveguide is a 2" wide-range Tang Band. Crossover first order around 1500Hz.

      With the help of a 31-band graphic equalizer, which can boost or cut each 1/3 octave by 12dB, I was able to get it to measure flat +/-3dB in my shop 60Hz-20KHz on axis 2M from the flange of the waveguide (which is 22 degrees off of each tweeter's axis).

      ​It sounded to me like it could play real music.

      -Meredith

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mcargill View Post

        Under each soup can is an Aura AS3-75-8F wide-range 3" driver. Sixteen of them, total, mounted in pairs, with a compression chamber sandwiched between. Each pair drives an exponential horn cut from styrofoam board for its first 11 inches (see photo in post #13). Each horn is continued through a cardboard barrel that combines the eight horns in an output about 21" in diameter.

        A 30x60-degree waveguide, with 39"x58" mouth, on the front controls dispersion in the horizontal down to around 250Hz. The 21" throat starts to beam down the middle of the waveguide around 1KHz, so directivity is controlled for only the 2 octaves 250-1,000Hz.

        The result has a domed frequency response with its top around 630Hz. Usable output down to 30Hz, if you don't play it too loud.

        Tweeter mounted in the flange of the waveguide is a 2" wide-range Tang Band. Crossover first order around 1500Hz.

        With the help of a 31-band graphic equalizer, which can boost or cut each 1/3 octave by 12dB, I was able to get it to measure flat +/-3dB in my shop 60Hz-20KHz on axis 2M from the flange of the waveguide (which is 22 degrees off of each tweeter's axis).

        ​It sounded to me like it could play real music.

        -Meredith
        This thing was a little intimidating when first seen, huge would be an understatement. Was obvious Meredith had put an incredible amount of hours into building it. When the first bass note hit, lots of heads whipped to attention. What he was able to finagle out of those itty bitty drivers was incredible. Unfortunately, the first bass notes played were not the lowest and further into the song the drivers started to complain. Some laughing started which kinda shocked me but I then noticed Meredith was laughing/smiling too. If any of the projects could have benefited from a chance to play your own music choice at a level you desired, it was probably this one, sorry we didn't get that chance. It was still extremely impressive to me, hats off to you Meredith.
        My "No-Name" CC Speaker
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        Comment


        • Originally posted by mcargill View Post

          Under each soup can is an Aura AS3-75-8F wide-range...
          Meredith, going into my second year I have to admit I was most curious to see what you'd bring and you didn't disappoint! Though I wish you would have used better drivers, I imagine what you could accomplish with that horn and some small wide-range TangBand drivers or similar! What are your plans for that thing?

          And can't wait to see what you do for next year!
          --
          Javad Shadzi
          Bay Area, CA

          2-Channel Stereo system in the works with Adcom components and 4-way towers

          Comment


          • Meredith never ceases to amaze me with what he comes up with. The bass of that thing in what it could do was astonishing! I did not expect that much good low end out of it. If those were NS3-193-8A, I think it would have been stellar. I know he's in it for fun, and that is best part of it. Yes- I laughed, but Meredith did too! Still amazing that they did what they did in that monstrosity.

            Later,
            Wolf
            "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
            "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
            "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
            "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

            *InDIYana event website*

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            My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
            http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mcargill View Post

              Under each soup can is an Aura AS3-75-8F wide-range 3" driver. Sixteen of them, total, mounted in pairs, with a compression chamber sandwiched between. Each pair drives an exponential horn cut from styrofoam board for its first 11 inches (see photo in post #13). Each horn is continued through a cardboard barrel that combines the eight horns in an output about 21" in diameter.

              A 30x60-degree waveguide, with 39"x58" mouth, on the front controls dispersion in the horizontal down to around 250Hz. The 21" throat starts to beam down the middle of the waveguide around 1KHz, so directivity is controlled for only the 2 octaves 250-1,000Hz.

              The result has a domed frequency response with its top around 630Hz. Usable output down to 30Hz, if you don't play it too loud.

              Tweeter mounted in the flange of the waveguide is a 2" wide-range Tang Band. Crossover first order around 1500Hz.

              With the help of a 31-band graphic equalizer, which can boost or cut each 1/3 octave by 12dB, I was able to get it to measure flat +/-3dB in my shop 60Hz-20KHz on axis 2M from the flange of the waveguide (which is 22 degrees off of each tweeter's axis).

              ​It sounded to me like it could play real music.

              -Meredith
              Thank you for the detailed response.

              Comment


              • I think they need to go back to a fuller spectrum pink noise. I had quite a few people ask why my speakers sound a lot louder then the others and it happened because of the bandwidth limited pink noise to set everyone's level. I tend to voice my projects with a relaxed midrange because of the music I typically listen to. That was the problem, when they set the volume based on that range, the treble and bass were prolly twice as loud. Those D8's were kicking that rooms a55! Which prolly led to a judgment of exaggerated/ unbalanced highs and lows.
                A mains
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                Comment


                • Originally posted by 6thplanet View Post
                  I think they need to go back to a fuller spectrum pink noise. I had quite a few people ask why my speakers sound a lot louder then the others and it happened because of the bandwidth limited pink noise to set everyone's level. I tend to voice my projects with a relaxed midrange because of the music I typically listen to. That was the problem, when they set the volume based on that range, the treble and bass were prolly twice as loud. Those D8's were kicking that rooms a55! Which prolly led to a judgment of exaggerated/ unbalanced highs and lows.
                  Agreed, your speakers were by far the loudest of the day, the bass was shaking the ceiling tiles, and frankly it sounded great, but not a fair comparison.
                  --
                  Javad Shadzi
                  Bay Area, CA

                  2-Channel Stereo system in the works with Adcom components and 4-way towers

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 6thplanet View Post
                    I think they need to go back to a fuller spectrum pink noise. I had quite a few people ask why my speakers sound a lot louder then the others and it happened because of the bandwidth limited pink noise to set everyone's level. I tend to voice my projects with a relaxed midrange because of the music I typically listen to. That was the problem, when they set the volume based on that range, the treble and bass were prolly twice as loud. Those D8's were kicking that rooms a55! Which prolly led to a judgment of exaggerated/ unbalanced highs and lows.
                    Absolutely. I thought the bass on your project was a bit overwhelming, which probably hurt your scores a bit. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. It also explains why my Division project was hitting 95 dB, since it has a somewhat "smiley face" response.
                    Eric L.

                    Comment


                    • I'm glad that I re-voiced my speakers after InDIYana, removing the "smiley face" response I first had as doing so may have helped its performance. Still, I'm not convinced PE's choice on setting the SPL levels was the best one, but apparently they still have an open mind for next year.
                      Paul

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                        I'm glad that I re-voiced my speakers after InDIYana, removing the "smiley face" response I first had as doing so may have helped its performance. Still, I'm not convinced PE's choice on setting the SPL levels was the best one, but apparently they still have an open mind for next year.
                        Paul
                        Hi Paul, did you do or planning to do a write-up of the Brioso? I googled but couldn't find anything. T-Lab tweeters need more love.

                        Comment


                        • I have a 9-page write-up which includes a number of photos, graphs, drawings and crossover details. I tried to post it on PETT in its PDF format but it's too large. Send me a private message with your email address and I'll attach it in my reply.
                          Paul

                          Originally posted by raiderone View Post

                          Hi Paul, did you do or planning to do a write-up of the Brioso? I googled but couldn't find anything. T-Lab tweeters need more love.

                          Comment


                          • Thanks for everyone's suggestions. We really do take these things to heart, I've already copied most of this (that wasn't repeated) so we can discuss it for next year. We actually do have meetings about this stuff contrary to what some of you guys might think

                            The pink noise track was way too short, some of you may have seen me drop my head a few times when the track "repeated" during the level setting. This and the type of noise we use will most likely be different next year. This was something different we wanted to try and now that we have we can weigh the pros and cons. Regarding placing the mic on axis with a single speaker, while this is possible and likely a better alternative, this would require measuring distances and changing mic height for every entry which will just add more time. That doesn't mean we won't consider it however.

                            I also agree that the test tracks seem to be way too short. I was doing some listening tests before the show and thought to myself "this just doesn't seem long enough"... Although this was my first show and had heard this was a common complaint. Maybe now that things seem to move a lot smoother and we were consistently so far ahead of schedule, adding a fourth track might be a viable option next year. The level variances between the pink noise and track output did seem a little off but this had more to do with the limited test passband we used than anything else.

                            Whether I am a judge again next year or not (I don't know how a lot of you felt about that since I work for Dayton Audio/PE...some of us thought it may have been a little bias) I will do what I can to further improve on the competition. This will include modifying the seating so you guys can have as good a vantage point as we can give you. I also considered placing the judges one behind the other so we can all share the central sweet spot. Even being a couple feet off to the side I noticed it was tricky to judge sound stage and imaging and I knew it wasn't ideal.
                            Your results may vary.

                            Comment


                            • If you use 4 tracks and make each longer, say 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 minutes, you would add 3 minutes at most for each demo, or about an hour and half on Saturday. Limiting the lunch break to one hour, then, would still get it all done by 4:00 to 4:30 and ready to announce winners. Placing the speakers closer together, like 10 feet, will help immensely in judging sound stage and imaging for most speakers with the judges seated as they were, and won't cause any detriment for the audience's listening, IMO. All of use appreciate PE considering our suggestions.
                              Paul

                              Originally posted by mattp View Post
                              Thanks for everyone's suggestions. We really do take these things to heart, I've already copied most of this (that wasn't repeated) so we can discuss it for next year. We actually do have meetings about this stuff contrary to what some of you guys might think

                              The pink noise track was way too short, some of you may have seen me drop my head a few times when the track "repeated" during the level setting. This and the type of noise we use will most likely be different next year. This was something different we wanted to try and now that we have we can weigh the pros and cons. Regarding placing the mic on axis with a single speaker, while this is possible and likely a better alternative, this would require measuring distances and changing mic height for every entry which will just add more time. That doesn't mean we won't consider it however.

                              I also agree that the test tracks seem to be way too short. I was doing some listening tests before the show and thought to myself "this just doesn't seem long enough"... Although this was my first show and had heard this was a common complaint. Maybe now that things seem to move a lot smoother and we were consistently so far ahead of schedule, adding a fourth track might be a viable option next year. The level variances between the pink noise and track output did seem a little off but this had more to do with the limited test passband we used than anything else.

                              Whether I am a judge again next year or not (I don't know how a lot of you felt about that since I work for Dayton Audio/PE...some of us thought it may have been a little bias) I will do what I can to further improve on the competition. This will include modifying the seating so you guys can have as good a vantage point as we can give you. I also considered placing the judges one behind the other so we can all share the central sweet spot. Even being a couple feet off to the side I noticed it was tricky to judge sound stage and imaging and I knew it wasn't ideal.

                              Comment


                              • Long thread, so perhaps I missed this - What are the dimensions of the room?
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                                "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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