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  • #61
    Originally posted by scottvalentin View Post
    Very informative, thanks rpb and thanks KEtheredge87 for keeping at it! I would like to hear these!
    Thanks Scott! I'm not sure where your based, but I plan on having these done in time for the InDIYana 2018 get together. Worst case scenario I could bring them to the 2018 Midwest Audiofest.
    Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
    Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
    The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
    SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

    Comment


    • #62
      Good morning guys,

      I took some more measurements this morning. I think I'm getting a little bit better at this for all the practice

      I looked at my impulse response and determined there was some room interference above 4.75ms, so that's where I set my gate. I took gated measurements with and without XO, as well as blended measurements with and without XO just to show the difference with my 4.75ms gate. The measurement setup is the exact same as last night (two dayton audio test stands - stacked vertically, 1 meter measurement distance, ~81 dB reference level set with the XO engaged by the SMSL Q5 Pro amp set at 30 volume.

      As always, let me know what you think about these graphs. Is there something fundamental that I'm overlooking in my XO designs?

      Thanks!

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      Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
      Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
      The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
      SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

      Comment


      • #63
        i'm curious , how do you think they sound with your XO ?
        Paper Towers
        RS180P/28F surrounds
        Boombox

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by filmslayer View Post
          i'm curious , how do you think they sound with your XO ?
          Hey filmslayer, So far I've listened to this XO design on a few different days, with a few different styles of music. Overall I think it sounds pretty good for my first XO design ever. The HiVi L6-4R woofer seems well behaved and puts out a good amount of bass, especially with this ported cabinet. Listening to rap, hip hop, or dance music all sounded pretty good without a subwoofer.

          For the most part, vocals are clear if a bit forward. That range ended up a few dB higher than I thought, which would explain that. I noticed it most on tracks like Icky Thump from The White Stripes. Jack White's vocals on that song are already prominent, and this XO really brought them out a bit more. On my next XO iteration (few posts back) I am trying to dial this range back a little bit, so I'll report on whether or not that worked.

          The high end with this XO seems balanced, with a good amount of detail and shimmer on cymbals and other high end sounds. The ND25FW-4 tweeter starts to roll-off around 15K, so there's a limit to how high in frequency we can stay flat, but I don't hear all that well beyond 12-15 kHz anyway, so I'm not too concerned about that! (Selfish, I know).

          The only thing I thought was a bit objectionable was some muddiness or fuzziness (insert your favorite touchy-feely description of what you think you hear at this point) when listening to some rock music. Across that genre the effect I found was less obvious, but I still thought it was there... that feeling you get when you hear something that isn't supposed to be there... it was that. What really brought it out was the track Twin Rocks, Oregon by Shawn Mullins. Listening at a decent "critical listening" volume showed the tiniest bit of buzz on combinations of heavier guitar picks at the same time as some of Mullins' vocals. What I think may be going on is a little bit of cone resonance in the L6-4R woofer around 2500 Hz. This area was the closest thing to a breakup peak that I saw on the FR plots, and my initial XO design didn't do much to tamp that out... rather I just brought it down to reference. I probably should have put a little bit of a notch on that during the first go round, but I'll be trying it a few dB below reference on this next iteration.

          Hopefully that little bit of fuzz/buzz goes away, and I'll be left with a well behaved speaker across all genres and volumes! It's been fun so far, and I still have lots to learn!
          Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
          Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
          The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
          SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

          Comment


          • #65
            I have some ideas, but don't think of them as saying you did something wrong. It's simply another way of doing a x-over. Take a look at your transfer function on the woofer. This will tell you a lot if it is accurate. Likely is. Some of your filters are pulling down the woofer response at low mid range frequencies. I looked at the mfg response of this driver. It shows a dip at 400hz. Your filter appears to pull down 500hz about 5dB, and that drags 400hz down even more. If you look at a baffle simulation, your baffle should start ramping up the response at about 400hz. (I'm guessing, since I don't know the dimensions.) So, your filter is affecting an area of the response that it shouldn't. This results in the 150hz range being relatively too high compared to the 500hz range. To my ear, that gives a warm, but fuzzy bass. A little is nice, but too much sounds muddy. Too little can sound very detailed, and lean, but sometimes a little cold. It's a balancing act getting just what you want.

            Filter suggestion. Add a notch across the woofer. Try 2mH, 40uf, and 8 ohms. (This is a wild guess starting point. Experiment with the values to see the effect. A bigger coil makes a sharper notch than a smaller one.) Then rework the rest of the woofer filter. The L2 coil will be much smaller now. The transfer function should show a little activity below 500hz, and then get very aggressive above that.

            Something similar to this.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by rpb; 12-31-2017, 01:55 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
              Hey filmslayer, So far I've listened to this XO design on a few different days, with a few different styles of music. Overall I think it sounds pretty good for my first XO design ever. The HiVi L6-4R woofer seems well behaved and puts out a good amount of bass, especially with this ported cabinet. Listening to rap, hip hop, or dance music all sounded pretty good without a subwoofer.

              For the most part, vocals are clear if a bit forward. That range ended up a few dB higher than I thought, which would explain that. I noticed it most on tracks like Icky Thump from The White Stripes. Jack White's vocals on that song are already prominent, and this XO really brought them out a bit more. On my next XO iteration (few posts back) I am trying to dial this range back a little bit, so I'll report on whether or not that worked.

              The high end with this XO seems balanced, with a good amount of detail and shimmer on cymbals and other high end sounds. The ND25FW-4 tweeter starts to roll-off around 15K, so there's a limit to how high in frequency we can stay flat, but I don't hear all that well beyond 12-15 kHz anyway, so I'm not too concerned about that! (Selfish, I know).

              The only thing I thought was a bit objectionable was some muddiness or fuzziness (insert your favorite touchy-feely description of what you think you hear at this point) when listening to some rock music. Across that genre the effect I found was less obvious, but I still thought it was there... that feeling you get when you hear something that isn't supposed to be there... it was that. What really brought it out was the track Twin Rocks, Oregon by Shawn Mullins. Listening at a decent "critical listening" volume showed the tiniest bit of buzz on combinations of heavier guitar picks at the same time as some of Mullins' vocals. What I think may be going on is a little bit of cone resonance in the L6-4R woofer around 2500 Hz. This area was the closest thing to a breakup peak that I saw on the FR plots, and my initial XO design didn't do much to tamp that out... rather I just brought it down to reference. I probably should have put a little bit of a notch on that during the first go round, but I'll be trying it a few dB below reference on this next iteration.

              Hopefully that little bit of fuzz/buzz goes away, and I'll be left with a well behaved speaker across all genres and volumes! It's been fun so far, and I still have lots to learn!

              Do you have some good foam, or fiberglass in the box to absorb the backwave? Some cones will allow sound in the box to radiate back out through the cone.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
                Thanks Scott! I'm not sure where your based, but I plan on having these done in time for the InDIYana 2018 get together. Worst case scenario I could bring them to the 2018 Midwest Audiofest.

                I'm based in Calgary, AB (Canada) but have it on my list to get to an Indy or MWAF in the coming years, but probably not 2018 sadly.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by rpb View Post


                  Do you have some good foam, or fiberglass in the box to absorb the backwave? Some cones will allow sound in the box to radiate back out through the cone.
                  Yessir! I modeled this box in BassBox as heavily lined, so I have some 1" thick seat cushion foam lining the insides of the cabinet. I'm currently fiddling with the XO design to see how the XO transfer function can guide my choices.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                  Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                  The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                  SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
                    Yessir! I modeled this box in BassBox as heavily lined, so I have some 1" thick seat cushion foam lining the insides of the cabinet. I'm currently fiddling with the XO design to see how the XO transfer function can guide my choices.

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]n1358198[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]n1358199[/ATTACH]
                    Take a quick look at post #3. The goal would be to bring up the response at 400hz even with the rest.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by rpb View Post
                      Take a quick look at post #3. The goal would be to bring up the response at 400hz even with the rest.
                      While I don't have any fun pictures to share with this post, I gave your notch filter suggestions a go with my measured FRD files. Every time I would get close to having things close to flat around that 400-500 Hz point, the last few adjustments would cause a reaction at the 400 Hz point which bumped the frequency response lower. Ultimately, that nets no improvement, so if that region proves to be a problem still once I test the next version of this XO I'll have to look at this again. I like that transfer function way of thinking though... I'll be using that one in the future! Thanks for presenting me with a challenge, even if I was bested this time!
                      Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                      Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                      The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                      SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Time for another quick update!

                        I built the 2nd version of this crossover as detailed in post #44, including the notch filter on the woofer and the LR4 crossover applied to the tweeter. I've listened to it a few times, each time going through the InDIYana 2017 sample tracks before going randomly through my library to hear different styles of music.

                        Compared to the first XO:
                        - Vocals are more relaxed (good, but almost a bit too much on certain songs)
                        - The muddiness or fuzziness I was hearing on certain songs is gone
                        - I'm pretty sure I'm getting some tweeter distortion now

                        It's kind of hard to describe exactly what I'm hearing, except to say it sounds kinda like this youtube video linked below. Granted, I only hear a short burst, or even a single click / pop from time to time. The sound is not constant like in this video, but it sounds pretty much like what I think I'm hearing. I think this means I need to raise the crossover point a bit? Take some stress off the tweeter? It tends to happen in intense sections of rock songs the most.

                        I'd imagine there's a data-based approach to understanding what I am hearing, I just need to read deeper into the OmniMic manuals and see if maybe a distortion measurement could help? I'd appreciate any thoughts on how to best isolate and resolve this issue.

                        Thanks for following along!

                        Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                        Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                        The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                        SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Hi Everyone,

                          It's been a long while since my last update on these speakers. I have been focused on preparing my SevenSixTwo Coaxials for the InDIYana show at the end of April, so the Super Bees had to take a back seat. Since I last updated you guys, I haven't made any decisions about the XO, in fact, I haven't even listened to that XO setup since January (didn't want to fill my head with even more XO choices while I fiddled with the 3-way XO).

                          At this point, my plan is to finish the cabinets for the Super Bees and bring them to the InDIYana event as well. I'm also planning to bring the prototype XOs I last designed for these guys as an outboard XO setup so I can get some additional ears on these. Something wasn't quite satisfactory to me last time I listened, so I'll poll the collective wisdom of those on hand for their thoughts.

                          With all that said... here's some bodywork and paint photos! I used JB Weld "Kwik Wood" epoxy putty, bondo, and bondo glaze paste in various places to fill in the gaps at the edges of the cabinet. I think I did a decent job filling in everything, but I won't be surprised if I get an edge telegraphing through here or there... I'm not that good, yet! After the gap filling, I used two coats of Zinsser 1-2-3 oil based white primer to soak into the MDF and provide a good primer base. I sanded the cabinets to 220 grit before primer, as well as after each coat of primer had dried indoors overnight. Tonight, I hit them with a few light coats of rustoleum gloss enamel in Sunburst Yellow color (a compromise because I wasn't going to pay $40 a spray can for the actual "destroyer yellow" color that the Dodge Super Bee was actually painted in!)

                          So far things are turning out well. I'll give this yellow a day or two for curing, then knock some of the orange peel back and hit it with one final coat of yellow. Then it'll be time to lay out the matte black racing stripe, and apply the Super Bee decals Once all that's done, I'll give it a light coating of rustoleum crystal clear enamel to seal everything in. I'll have to get some muscle car recordings to play on a test disc for these!

                          Click image for larger version

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                          Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                          Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                          The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                          SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Those sure look sharp!!!

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                            • #74
                              Thanks Phil! I've never been this invested in a rattle can spray job before... wondering if I ought to wet sand 600 grit between coats of yellow here to help tame the orange peel that I have? These photos make it look really bad, but looking at the cabinets under normal lighting it isn't horrible. Also doesn't feel awful... just there, and noticeable when you look for it.

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                              Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                              Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                              The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                              SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                If you can get a compatible clear that might save some sand down time
                                John H

                                Synergy Horn, SLS-85, BMR-3L, Mini-TL, BR-2, Titan OB, B452, Udique, Vultus, Latus1, Seriatim, Aperivox,Pencil Tower

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