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Should I adjust my DIY expectations?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by kevintomb View Post
    I have found in my limited DIY experience, and somewhat extensive Retail speaker modding experience, that maybe more than anything, "Voicing" and crossovers account for a lot of what we "Like",

    I think there is a sound we like, a sound that others like and a sound that is correct.
    Sometimes impressive at first wears thin after several hours or even less.

    That last sentence, I've experienced it, both on the retail side and with my early DIY endeavors that didn't work well. Summed up, it's with ear fatigue. I know many who have bought their preferred brand, which at first sounded "detailed" or other common terms that are used. But they found that there was something that kept them from listening for longer periods of time. It could be a bright high-end or midrange, but I think it's mostly listening/ear fatigue. I've experienced the same thing with many different speakers. My own attempts decades ago with textbook XO formulas lead to that harshness from the mids and/or highs. I could only stand about 2-3 songs before I wanted to stop. After a few sessions with some DIY designs, those people weren't experiencing that same fatigue. After their own DIY design was built, the comment I hear often is they can now listen for much longer. I believe you're right about excellent XO design and voicing, it does make all the difference. Not only with the enjoyment of listening for an hour or longer, but the sound stage size and imaging presentation. I came to this forum approx. 17 years ago, wondering why the formulas weren't working. I could not get the transparency or decent imaging with that method. I realized what I had been doing after some very helpful people clued me in about using fixed numbers for ones that are variable. No wonder those design methods didn't work.

    John A.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by wogg View Post
      ... and we'll never really hear it exactly the same unless we listen in the mastering engineer's studio....
      - The synopsis
      Include the fact that better engineers listen to different speaker systems to allow for the multitude of listening platforms.

      "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
      "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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      • #33
        I don't know. I just tune all my designs to sound like the anthesis of my ex-mother-in-law. Most have found this intrepritation of sound reproduction remarkably pleasing.
        .

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sydney View Post
          - The synopsis
          Include the fact that better engineers listen to different speaker systems to allow for the multitude of listening platforms.
          True! That should be part of mixing 101.

          I don't know. I just tune all my designs to sound like the anthesis of my ex-mother-in-law. Most have found this intrepritation of sound reproduction remarkably pleasing.
          That's fantastic!
          Electronics engineer, woofer enthusiast, and musician.
          Wogg Music

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          • #35
            Originally posted by mzisserson View Post
            I just tune all my designs to sound like the anthesis of my ex-mother-in-law.
            Now that's funny!

            My mother-in-law believes speakers should be heard and not seen. As in over-priced, under performing Bose.
            If life were fair, Elvis would still be alive today and all the impersonators would be dead.
            ~ Johnny Carson

            Bungelow Ed's Photo Album http://techtalk.parts-express.com/album.php?u=8594

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            • #36
              Originally posted by wogg View Post
              True! That should be part of mixing 101....
              While not part of a curriculum on mixing, the Focal Title: Mixing Secrets For The Small Studio (by Mike Senor) covers that rationale and provide detailed insight to monitoring.
              Two friends, who are lifetime musicians (but not necessarily tech savvy) found this book very useful in their home studio.
              Knowledge of the Production side helps in understanding the Reproduction side
              "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
              "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by jcsmith0919 View Post
                Going to an all active setup would be awesome, but the learning curve before even hearing some of the well regarded kits is what holds me back at the moment. Based off some of the comments, I'd speculate that treating my room, getting all the proper electronics, and adding a pair of well known kits would get me 95% there. Then start messing with dsp and the like to fine tune what I'm after. Most of the heavy lifting isn't for a few years anyway, as the Air Force has me bouncing around a lot until 2019. I just figured learn what I can right now so when it's go time I'm prepared for the next move and expectations are reasonable.
                I do think the room is very important, but I am content to use a room that is very close to a typical living room. Years ago, I went overboard with adding some DIY treatments. They helped a little, but mine were unsightly. I felt that like speaker designs, the room treatments seemed to have trade offs. Maybe with enough time and effort, a big improvement can be made to some rooms, but I think for others it's a case of diminishing returns. I would imagine that really working out any bass issues would sound great. The bass is possibly the most difficult to treat, but positioning speakers, and listeners carefully can be effective.

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                • #38
                  Its not just me who found B&W diamond tweets dreadful..
                  Beryllium tweets seem to have a very non fatiguing but detailed top end imo. Surprised Dayton havent released a Be tweet yet.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jcsmith0919 View Post
                    Going to an all active setup would be awesome, but the learning curve before even hearing some of the well regarded kits is what holds me back at the moment. Based off some of the comments, I'd speculate that treating my room, getting all the proper electronics, and adding a pair of well known kits would get me 95% there. Then start messing with dsp and the like to fine tune what I'm after. Most of the heavy lifting isn't for a few years anyway, as the Air Force has me bouncing around a lot until 2019. I just figured learn what I can right now so when it's go time I'm prepared for the next move and expectations are reasonable.
                    Bass can be hard to deal with due to nulls, and standing waves. You should read up on that as a good starting point. I can place a sub in a certain spot in my room, and run a frequency sweep that will show almost no bass at 55hz if I remember correctly. It just cancels itself out at that frequency. It's likely the worst possible spot for a speaker, or for a listener!

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                    • #40
                      One remarkable feature of B&W big speakers is bass performance. They are tuned lower than mid-size speakers and have full BSC and also low distortion with double drivers.. This is also typical for many other large high-end speakers eg. Wilson and Focal. In a large room with careful placement the sound is really different from mid-class two-ways and slim towers. This added to a bit too bright treble make speakers sound "full and rich"

                      Dr. Toole and Harman Inc. have published lots of studies of consumer sound preferences. It is clear that the average Joe likes rich sound unlike many "hi-fi princesses" who have read horror stories about boomy bass and majestetic room modes etc.

                      I have personally found that too much awareness of measured room curves, reading loudspeaker tests and even making room measurements with REW is not good! Back in -70-80's we didn't have those and amplifiers were equipped with tone controls, even "Loudness" - and we were allowed to use them just by listening and to our personal preference!

                      https://www.innerfidelity.com/conten...r-target-curve

                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...r-measurements

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rpb View Post
                        Bass can be hard to deal with due to nulls, and standing waves. You should read up on that as a good starting point. I can place a sub in a certain spot in my room, and run a frequency sweep that will show almost no bass at ...
                        That is a key element in Pro Sound placement indoors or situations of large areas; Avoiding even fractions of the dimensions ( 1/2, 1/4,,,) in favor of odd fractions ( 1/3, 1/5, 1/7 etc ). This is the same Physics rationale as 1/3 or 1/5 rule for multiple microphone placement.
                        "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                        "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                          That is a key element in Pro Sound placement indoors or situations of large areas; Avoiding even fractions of the dimensions ( 1/2, 1/4,,,) in favor of odd fractions ( 1/3, 1/5, 1/7 etc ). This is the same Physics rationale as 1/3 or 1/5 rule for multiple microphone placement.
                          To clarify, the ratios are measured from middle and front of driver? For instance, if my enclosure is 16" deep and I put it butted to the wall, that would be considered 16" away.

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                          • #43
                            Just be be clear: what I refer to was dividing a large room into a grid and avoiding the "even" divisions.

                            In the case you describe: A cab 16" deep against a boundary - Include the distance from the center of the driver.
                            Because the sound source is on a baffle - the frequencies larger than the baffle will tend to wrap around and reflect off the surrounding boundary.
                            * 16" is approx equal to 1/4 wavelength of 210Hz
                            This indeed can cause constructive and destructive summation ( ie uneven response ).
                            So proximity to surrounding boundaries does have to be considered.

                            http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speak...-interference/
                            Graphic:



                            "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                            "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                              Just be be clear: what I refer to was dividing a large room into a grid and avoiding the "even" divisions.

                              In the case you describe: A cab 16" deep against a boundary - Include the distance from the center of the driver.
                              Because the sound source is on a baffle - the frequencies larger than the baffle will tend to wrap around and reflect off the surrounding boundary.
                              * 16" is approx equal to 1/4 wavelength of 210Hz
                              This indeed can cause constructive and destructive summation ( ie uneven response ).
                              So proximity to surrounding boundaries does have to be considered.

                              http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speak...-interference/
                              [B]Graphic:
                              That's exactly what I was looking for. The illustrations put it all together too. The 1/4 wavelength, multiple wavelength, etc thing always confused me, but makes much more sense now.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
                                Of course that depends on the sound engineer's preferences, his/her's speaker set up and crossover design and the presentation of the virtual soundstage of the mastering speakers. After comes your own speak set that interprets virtual soundstage in it's own way.

                                The objective is really to replicate the preferred live music event and tailor the system to do exactly that.
                                Roman, I think you have a very important fact here, unless the session was recorded live what soundstage is even relevant ? I do not listen to jazz or classical so
                                ​to me trying to recreate imaging or depth does not matter to 75% of what I listen to. And Mike Z I hope you don't voice my speakers after your ex inlaw sounds
                                ​like a lot of port noise. Maybe Thanksgivin to drop off cabs.

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