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A good 2 way design using only a capacitor for the crossover is?

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  • #16
    I have yet to hear any speaker that uses only a cap on the tweeter that works well. Not providing for BSC or at least level adjustment makes for a speaker that sound thin on the bass and top heavy. As the woofer enters into the region in which it beams, the imaging falls flat as does accuracy of placement.

    Billet, the 5FE120 is a great driver, but I do not believe that it will do its best without some filtering. I crossed it at 3.2K in my Midnite Magic design to the AMT2-4. It uses a 3rd order electrical (4th order acoustic) filter. Allowing it to roll off on its own will result in sibilance and cone breakup.

    I read the info at Watkins. More hyperbole and fiction than fact. The sensitivity rating is based on driver manufactures spec and not in actual use. It is a Peerless driver and possibly built to their specs, but from off the shelf parts. There is nothing particuarly unique to it.
    https://www.facebook.com/Mosaic-Audi...7373763888294/

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    • #17
      I agree, Chuck.

      The very first non-subwoofer speakers I built were based on some poly cone Bravox buyout woofers way back when. They had absolutely no breakup mode. Just a nice clean roll-off on the top, and Curt helped me build an extremely simple crossover that might have had four components. They were a little thin on the bass (I didn't get the expected lift from my entertainment center), but extremely listenable. I still have like a dozen of them.

      Then I went to my first InDIYana (it was the year Jeff debuted the Continuum and Dan Neubecker had that crazy AE / Peerless OB job), and had a blast. Heard a bunch of great stuff. Met the crew. Took the event test CD home, and immediately popped it in to listen to my own speakers with all of that still fresh in my mind.

      Tonally, mine sounded great. But whoo-boy, in comparison to what I had heard the day before, they had *no* detail.

      It was that extremely well damped cone. The traits that made the crossover simple... had mooched all the life out of the reproduction.

      I think it's completely possible to come up with a woofer that has a natural response that obviates the need for baffle step compensation. We had it all the time back in the day--big paper cone woofers and a cap on the tweeter. But I don't think it's possible to make a cone that's capable of being sufficiently rigid for accurate transient response while *also* not needing the help of a crossover. Seas Revelators get as close as any to that ideal, but even they have rising 3rd order harmonics that really ought to be shut down to get the best out of them.
      nothing can stop me now

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      • #18
        I will agree that baffle step compensation is necessary in many cases, I had forgotten about that. I only have three components in my current 2-way crossovers, but two of them are for a contour filter on the woofer. I added the contour filter to compensate for the rising response of the woofers, but I guess I did end up with a few db of baffle step compensation.

        I also ended up adding a second woofer to increase efficiency to match the output of the tweeter. I did experiment with padding resistors during testing, but I left them out of my latest revision.

        I do have just one capacitor on the tweeter though. With a higher crossover point my woofers probably beam heavily, but they sound very good to me. Every design has some trade offs. I will say that designing good speakers is extremely complicated, it took lots of work to end up with a simple first order crossover that sounded the way that I wanted.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Dirk View Post
          Then I went to my first InDIYana (it was the year Jeff debuted the Continuum and Dan Neubecker had that crazy AE / Peerless OB job), and had a blast. Heard a bunch of great stuff. Met the crew. Took the event test CD home, and immediately popped it in to listen to my own speakers with all of that still fresh in my mind.
          Had to have been 2009.... I don't think you made it down to Richmond either of the 2 years prior.

          Good times indeed!
          Wolf

          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

          *InDIYana event website*

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          • #20
            Hello

            I've built four sets of DIY speakers, and did heaps of reading, asking for advice etc before I chose each build. From memory, the only cap-only kit I found was a clone of a 'Dynaco' A25 (?) speaker from the 70s which used a 8" woofer and a tweeter. I've heard the Dynacos, albeit only once a few years ago in an old system and thought they were OK, but who knows whether a clone would sound the same?

            My original stereo speakers are "Interdyn Pee Wees" with cap/resistor on the tweeter, which I thought were OK until I built Curt Campbell's "Slapshots". They would kill the Dynacos if I compared them now.

            Once I'd built one pair of speakers, second-order crossovers weren't that daunting, and for example, Curt's Tritrix crossover only use five parts and they sound great. With PETT videos and many build photos around, they're an easy build even for a beginner like me.

            Good luck

            Geoff

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            • #21
              In building my DML panel designs Ive tried the PE 5khz high pass at around $5.00ea...and the dayton 2 way 4.5khz crossover at around $25.00ea...even the PE 800zh low pass and 800hz high pass at around 10 bucks each...spent over 100 bucks on those cross overs but just a simple PE capacitor at 30-50 cents each sounded better then all the other more costly crossovers in my DML panel designs.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
                In building my DML panel designs Ive tried the PE 5khz high pass at around $5.00ea...and the dayton 2 way 4.5khz crossover at around $25.00ea...even the PE 800zh low pass and 800hz high pass at around 10 bucks each...spent over 100 bucks on those cross overs but just a simple PE capacitor at 30-50 cents each sounded better then all the other more costly crossovers in my DML panel designs.
                Those premade Cross overs are based on textbook values and the notion that the driver has a fixed impedance. They are a compromise to a purpose built Cross over. So what you have is a compromise built on other compromises. In this case, I'm not surprised that the single cap sounds better. But give those panels an optimized crossover and I think you would enjoy them even more.
                https://www.facebook.com/Mosaic-Audi...7373763888294/

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                • #23
                  I came veeeeeeery close once, still had to have a padding resistor. Takes a very special woofer to pull it off, this day and age breakups and an absolutely linear anechoic response below the breakup are commonplace. This is a good thing, but it means crossovers rooted in austerity are rare. Even most poly cones and pretty mich every modern paper cone are not able to be used sans crossover. The widespread inclusion of even rudimentary inductance taming ensures most drivers have an extended top end, plus the trend towards stiffer and stiffer cones... I guess woofers with easily workable responses are relegated to the same status as woofers offering actual sealed box bass.

                  Make sure you read my signature, though. Gotta make sure the high-end trolltards are happy.
                  Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by isaeagle4031 View Post

                    Those premade Cross overs are based on textbook values and the notion that the driver has a fixed impedance. They are a compromise to a purpose built Cross over. So what you have is a compromise built on other compromises. In this case, I'm not surprised that the single cap sounds better. But give those panels an optimized crossover and I think you would enjoy them even more.
                    My DML panel design uses 2 8ohm exciters per panel wired in parallel for 4ohms....one exciter is used full range while the other is used as a tweeter with just a capacitor as a high pass similar to the Nola Brio Trios.

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                    • #25
                      A capacitor (1st order) xo is, maybe, the most eloquent xo...........and most difficult to be convincing.
                      Kenny

                      http://www.diy-ny.com/
                      DIY NY/NJ 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGwA...ature=youtu.be
                      Man does not live by measurements alone, a little music helps.

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                      • #26
                        I'm beating my head on a 1st order 3-way. Alas, I need to pad because I am using off the shelf drivers. Only when you control the driver specs, can you develop the simplest xo.
                        Kenny

                        http://www.diy-ny.com/
                        DIY NY/NJ 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGwA...ature=youtu.be
                        Man does not live by measurements alone, a little music helps.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by isaeagle4031 View Post
                          I have yet to hear any speaker that uses only a cap on the tweeter that works well. Not providing for BSC or at least level adjustment makes for a speaker that sound thin on the bass and top heavy.
                          I read the info at Watkins. More hyperbole and fiction than fact.
                          +1. I'll add that the notion that there's any inherent advantage to a first order high pass and no low pass is audiophile nonsense. For every assumed issue that this topology supposedly addresses there are at least two real problems created.
                          Those premade Cross overs are based on textbook values and the notion that the driver has a fixed impedance. They are a compromise to a purpose built Cross over. So what you have is a compromise built on other compromises. In this case, I'm not surprised that the single cap sounds better.
                          +1. The disadvantage to well configured crossovers is that they take a fair amount of work and skill to create, but that shouldn't be a consideration on a site dedicated to doing it yourself.
                          www.billfitzmaurice.com
                          www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                          • #28
                            Human speakers makes a kit that is based on the EPI 100 from the seventies that uses an 8" woofer and a inverted dome tweeter with a single cap on
                            the tweeter. They claim the drivers are hand built and are upgraded from the original design from the 70's. The price seems very reasonable.

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                            • #29
                              A lot of commercial speakers work this way to save costs, with varying degrees of success. The problem with the midbass is - getting one that roll-off smoothly at 3kHz is difficult because this requires a fairly heavy cone to limit the bandwidth and there are other problems that come with that weight.
                              Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                              • #30
                                Thanks for all the input guys, it is highly informative. I had fantasized that with the right driver selection I might be able to build something really nice sounding without a sophisticated crossover. I had no idea that most modern drivers are fundamentally very different than the ones in the EPIs etc. I knew they had been refined, but did not have a clue about breakup modes etc.
                                It would be interesting to get the drivers from Human speakers for the EPI 100 clone, use a PE capacitor as the crossover and see what kind of sound they put out. I do love detail in my music though, and based on what several folks have said here it looks like any driver that rolls off enough above 3K will sacrifice detail. For the seasoned folks crossovers are no big deal, but I'm still somewhat apprehensive about them despite success on the Overnight Sensations.

                                Thanks again,
                                ​Jay

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