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SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax Design

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Hi Guys!

    I'm happy to report I have finished the veneer application and most of the trimming on my last cabinet, and I did NOT screw this one up with the veneer trimming flush cut bit! I think I even saw a Star Wars style vision of Kevin K. dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi reminding me to "use the force"... just do it lightly and keep moving!

    Now I only need to make the final bushing guided cuts to trim the side panels down and I'll be ready for final sanding and the start of the finishing process!

    I have heard people comment that their children are all unique and special... If we want to call these cabinets my children for a moment, the adage definitely applies. Each one presented me with challenges doing the 360 degree veneer wrap, and 2 of the 3 didn't stay within the pencil guides I had drawn for myself. I figure this result is half due to my best attempt at lining up the sheet before gluing it down, and half a byproduct of how square my basic cabinets were. Any little bit of variance out of square would cause the veneer to start wrapping around the 3/4" rounded edges at an angle, and then show compounding error all the way around the cabinet. I planned to make the veneer seam on the bottom of the cabinets only, but I had to call an audible during the wrap last night once I started getting too far outside the lines. I made a second seam on the back of the cabinet, so I just cut the veneer sheet, scooted the piece back to center, glued it down and proceeded onward. This worked out pretty well for an area of the cabinet that isn't critical from an aesthetics perspective.

    As a byproduct of the 360 degree wrap shenanigans discussed above, I couldn't use the same slot cutter location for veneer trimming on each cabinet. I had to decide on a unique cutter position for each cabinet in order to trim the veneer wrap while still making those cuts an equal distance from both sides of the cabinet. At the end of the day, this means that the apparent thickness of the cabinet side panels are a bit different on each one! The difference is fairly small, but it's there if you look for it. Adds character, right?

    Lastly for the night.. a few words on the XO board mounting arrangement. As I have shown before, I'm using the PE phenolic circuit perf boards and the little case stand-offs to secure the boards in the cabinet. Well... I can't quite secure those stand-offs to the cabinet without trying to add some funny drilled holes to sink the M3 threaded posts into the cabinet, so I elected to cut the external threaded rod off the posts. This leaves me with the internal threaded section that receives the circuit board screws above. I decided to take some 1/4" hardboard and drill clearance holes for those posts, then epoxy the posts into those holes. Now, I can mount the whole assembly into the cabinets, and still be able to remove individual XO boards from the cabinet if needed. I assume I'll just use some epoxy to glue the XO mounting boards into the cabinet, since trying to do any other kind of wood screw would be a total pain at this stage!

    I'm happy to keep making progress... I've got some TransTint Dark Vintage Maple dye to start playing with very soon!

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  • Kevin K.
    replied
    Damn, how could I have forgotten that work bench, sweetness! If it's possible, lift the center section up to be higher than the other surfaces. I rarely need more than a 2'x2' table area to flush cut driver openings. At least you could try that until you pick up that ridiculous Table Saw and get the extension for it (envy is ugly, I know). Tried with all my might to convince the boss years ago we needed that table saw but it was bad timing and our slower part of the season, Grizzly won out. Still a decent saw but not near as good as the industrial version of the SawStop.

    I understand your time constraints and wish you luck on the other two cabinets. If you have trouble and end up needing the hardwood option, let me know, be glad to help out.

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    All good Sir The table top has 3 sections to it, so it can be a multifunction type setup. I built it off these plans: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/aw-extra-51514-ultimate-tool-stand

    The side sections are screwed into place, and have slots cut into them to allow clamps to secure work against the table anywhere along the depth of the table. The center section is removable, and is where the router table lives. That section can be stored underneath, and replaced by my chop saw (bed height is matched to the side panel height), or any other tool that I chose to fit into the space.

    In a perfect world, all of my table saw cuts to make those sections would have given me identical heights across the whole surface. Apparently, my world is not perfect, and those sections are not 100% flush!

    I suppose I could go big with the KISS principle and buy a scrap section of countertop. I could clamp that down to my workbench and have one uniform router table surface. Although the more I think about it, I'd probably just make the router table part of the table saw wings (once I buy it) and convert the workbench into a more dedicated chop saw station.

    One way or another... I'll be tweaking my shop to improve after this project is completed.

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  • Kevin K.
    replied
    Table routers and their accessories are difficult to recommend, so much to pick from. It really comes down to how often will you use it and what it's primary uses will be. I like the KISS rule for the table router and just have a basic 2'x4' table built with 2x4 legs and a plywood top covered in Formica. The body of the router is actually mounted to the underside of the table. Sorry, I completely forgot about the table you built a while back, surely you can fix it to suit your needs. Remind me again why your table had independent sections on the top? Or post a pic.

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Hey Kevin, Thanks for the ideas. I like the hardwood inlay idea (also think it would look great) and will keep that in mind. Right now I have one final cabinet to veneer, so I may be able to proceed toward my April completion goal without having to go into full scale repair mode just yet. If I can get two cabinets without major mistakes I'll roll forward and come back to repair this one later.

    To your point on the router table... I really would like a better one! I built a DIY version into the big rolling workbench I made for constructing the Jedi Mind Trick subs. The issue I have discovered is that the individual sections of that table are not flat with each other. Every time I would run a workpiece across the table, I would either get caught on a lip of material, or have the workpiece lift up ever so slightly as it transitioned to a taller reference surface. Being the overly anal engineer that I am... I really can't stand it, so I don't use that router table setup as often as I might otherwise. Beyond that issue, I feel like I get some bit deflection on that table due to the wooden router lift that the table uses. I like for my router cuts to be perpendicular to the work... and that deflection doesn't help.

    Outside of a rockin' CNC setup... do you have suggestions on router tables that would be better than the one I built? I am getting close to buying a 3HP sawstop table saw (wife is actually pushing for me to buy it) And I see they have an optional router table wing extension for $500. Seems steep (even for SawStop)... I'd like to think I could do something comparable myself for less money, just more project time on tool building rather than project building!

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  • Kevin K.
    replied
    And no this wouldn't be for the faint of heart, nor easy. But as John stated, doable.

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  • Kevin K.
    replied
    Didn't mention it but all of the inserts would of course be flush with the veneer, nothing sticking out off the enclosure. They would look like accents around the openings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin K.
    replied
    For the slot ports, I would have used this bit. It has a bearing and would have prevented the damage. You can pick it up on Amazon also. https://www.veneersupplies.com/produ...outer-Bit.html

    For the driver openings, ​you pretty much have to use the bit you referenced. Based on the burn marks I'm seeing in your openings, you are using way to much pressure and not moving fast enough. Don't be concerned with trying to get it all on the first pass. The most important thing when using that bit is to keep it moving. If you are planning to continue building cabinets and I suspect you will, build a table router man. It's a lot easier to clear out those driver openings when you don't have to worry about the hand router wobbling due to lack of surface area for the face.

    The fix I had in mind was to make a fixture to cut recesses around your port and binding post openings and insert a piece of hardwood maple. I'm thinking 1/2" deep. Width would depend on what you like. If you don't want a round-over on the port opening, just open it up 1/4" or so. If you do like the idea of a round-over, open it according to the round-over size plus just a little. This would eliminate the transition problem you were referencing. I have some nice hardwood maple if you need it and could cut the inserts for you on the CNC just leaving you the task of the fixtures and cuts on the cabinets. I don't believe the inserts would look bad and the addition of a round-over on the port opening might look pretty snazzy.

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  • jhollander
    replied
    I have cut oversized by 1/8 inch with a template, bushing, down cut spiral bit. Alignment, centering, and clamping of the template over the hole was tough but was doable.

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Originally posted by Kevin K. View Post
    I hate seeing the router mishap happened to you, it's gotta be a real bummer after all that work. Fortunately you were wise enough to build three cabinets and could afford the mistake. Couple of questions on how this happened. Hand-router or table-router? And what bit are you using?

    BTW, not sure how you are uploading your pics but I can barely see the slot port damage, it's cut off in the picture.

    I have a fix in mind for your damaged cabinet if you're interested but for it to look right it would have to be done on the pair.
    Hey Kevin, I didn't upload a direct picture of the slot port damage in favor of other pics that I thought were more important at the time. I've included a somewhat better picture of that slot damage so you can get an idea of what went down there. You can see on the top-right side, the bit actually started cutting into the surface in one spot only. On the bottom right side, the carbide bearing surface must have overheated and compressed the MDF somehow, as the cut line wandered broadly into the cabinet as I pushed the router from right to left, trimming the bottom edge of the slot.

    I was using a Whiteside SC28C dado flush trim bit in my bosch hand router with plunge base to make these cuts. This bit has a 1/8" pilot portion below the cutting surface that acts as a fixed bearing. It fits into shallow recesses for drivers or tweeters, and trims veneer easily. Unsurprisingly, it can also get very hot from all the friction that "bearing" causes while it spins against the MDF surface. I've used this bit before with good results, but I admit I was going a bit quickly this go-round. I probably pushed the router a bit too much against the material, as the bit itself is showing some signs of overheating. It looks like it's covered in cooked MDF, with a slight hint of blueing on the bearing. Thankfully it's a $10 router bit, even from whiteside, so not a major deal to replace it. I wish there was an alternative to this that included a real bearing to avoid this kind of mistake.

    I'm all ears for the cabinet fix you've got in mind. If you're thinking about a round-over applied to the slot port, I had originally considered that as part of the design. Once I listened to the speaker with XO involved and didn't get any port noises from the slot with the flush end, I decided I didn't need to pursue the additional roundover. Additionally, I was kind of chickening out on that particular cut... I've never seen a roundover applied after veneer application before. I still remain concerned that there would be some very strange looking transition between the veneer, paper backing, and the MDF where the blade cuts through it all. Have you ever seen anything like that before? Otherwise... what's on your mind?

    Thanks for following along!
    Attached Files

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  • Kevin K.
    replied
    I hate seeing the router mishap happened to you, it's gotta be a real bummer after all that work. Fortunately you were wise enough to build three cabinets and could afford the mistake. Couple of questions on how this happened. Hand-router or table-router? And what bit are you using?

    BTW, not sure how you are uploading your pics but I can barely see the slot port damage, it's cut off in the picture.

    I have a fix in mind for your damaged cabinet if you're interested but for it to look right it would have to be done on the pair.

    Leave a comment:


  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Hi Everyone! Hope you all had a nice Easter weekend with your families (if celebrating Easter is your thing ). I had Friday off, so between Friday and Saturday I managed to make some good headway on the project. Of course, this also included a few ups and downs.

    Ups:
    - Veneer softener worked wonders on the long wrapped piece for the second of three cabinets. No more frayed and cracking grains!
    - Crossover construction for a stereo pair is now complete! I copied my placement from the first set, glued it all together, and soldered into place. Still need a few zip ties on the inductors.

    Downs:
    - While trimming the veneer in the second cabinet's opening, I must have changed my router settings from "original recipe" to "extra crispy." I cut into a few areas that I was not expecting to be cut... almost like the MDF just burned out of the way! Most of the issue was on the back of the cabinet where the terminal plate goes (no big deal)... but a little bit dug into the slot port on the front. kinda sucks, but not the total end of the world...maybe.

    Overall, this cabinet could easily be my "test cabinet" now. Just gotta be extra careful with my third and final cabinet veneering before I get into finishing mode. I'm feeling pretty good about getting things done on time. Just gotta keep pushing!

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Originally posted by Kevin K. View Post
    Great to see you moving forward on these again, was beginning to worry something catastrophic had happened. You don't have time to sweat the impact of the slots, I would move on. If it ends up being horrific once you take measurements, guitar banding might be an option to fill the slots. Probably going to be fine. ​Nice looking crossovers! What is and where can we get the perforated panels?
    Thanks Kevin! Moving on has been the conclusion I came to as well. The perf boards are the new ones PE sells. I just searched for PC boards or crossover boards and found those as well as the little corner standoffs. The woofer xo fit nicely on a 3" x 5" board, the mid used most of a 5x7 board, and the tweeter used all of a 5x7. On those slots, if it really comes out nasty, I do have guitar banding left over from the Jedi mind trick project. Bought it then and didn't end up needing it. Just gotta keep moving. Final push over the next few weeks! Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

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  • Kevin K.
    replied
    Great to see you moving forward on these again, was beginning to worry something catastrophic had happened. You don't have time to sweat the impact of the slots, I would move on. If it ends up being horrific once you take measurements, guitar banding might be an option to fill the slots. Probably going to be fine.

    ​Nice looking crossovers! What is and where can we get the perforated panels?

    Leave a comment:


  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Hey Everyone! It's been a few days since my last post... I've made some more progress on the XO and the cabinets to share, although I had hoped to be a smidge farther along.

    Starting with the cabinets, I went forward with my side panel veneer applications on the test cabinet. This was a lot easier to deal with since there were no curved surfaces involved! I also made a jig to frame out the side panels and trim them with a bushing guided down-cutting spiral bit. All in all, I think it turned out pretty good! The only thing stopping me from rolling forward and applying the veneer to the other cabinets is my curiosity about diffraction impacts with the vertical slots that I use to trim the veneer around the cabinet's narrow sides. I really want to take these back outside and do another "free-field" measurement to get the best data... but it's supposed to be gross and rainy here in Indiana for the entire week! (two thumbs waay...WAAAY Down!) My gut tells me that whatever the impact of those slots happens to be, it won't be drastic enough to make me change my whole cabinet design approach, so I should probably stop wasting time waiting for sunshine and just roll forward with veneering. Getting these cabinets 100% finished through dye, paint, and topcoat in time for InDIYana is probably a stretch, but I'll see what happens. The speakers will definitely be done enough to perform... they may just get their finish after the show!

    On to the XO... I spent most of last Saturday arranging, gluing, and soldering one of the midrange XO's as well as one of the tweeter XO's. I now have one solid set of XO's built, and I am happy to report very minimal change to the response after all the gator clips were removed from the equation! I have a chart on my measurement computer that I forgot to save to google drive, but from memory the response was nearly identical, if maybe a tiny bit louder from 2Khz upward (we're talkin a few tenths of a dB according to omnimic). The measurement line was just barely different from my gator clipped bench XO response. I'm quite pleased with it! I can't wait to get some other ears on it for some constructive feedback!

    Here's a few photos to document the progress while I run out of patience waiting for sunshine to come back!

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