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  • #46
    Philthien

    + 1 to your post #28, I think I am in complete agreement.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Sydney View Post
      Background ( from the referenced SOS article )
      https://www.soundonsound.com/people/...classic-tracks

      Great read! They maximized the use of that amazing echo chamber and the acoustic of the room, dust, worn wood and all.
      Later they cleaned up the room and made it shiny and the magic was gone! Thanks for sharing! I have been listening to Miles
      every morning.
      Guess xmax's age.

      My guess: 15. His grammar is passable. His trolling is good.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by xmax View Post
        ...Great read! They maximized the use of that amazing echo chamber and the acoustic of the room, dust, worn wood and all.
        Later they cleaned up the room and made it shiny and the magic was gone! Thanks for sharing! I have been listening to Miles
        every morning.
        I know I've read more than one story of how good acoustics were lost unintentionally; in some cases by painting over acoustic tiles.

        Sabine had tile manufacturers create ceramic tiles with porous surfaces that absorb sound and called them Rumford tiles.They damped echo effectively when St. Thomas Church was completed in 1913.
        In the 1970s, they started wanting more reverberation. In St. Thomas Church, the Rumford tiles were painted over to seal off their sound-absorbing pores and let the reverb back into the space.

        I find these stories entertaining, revealing old techniques, like those of Les Paul:
        Click image for larger version

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        8 underground trapezoidal rooms with 10-inch-thick concrete walls and foot-thick concrete ceilings.A 1-inch air gap separates the outer wall from the studios' inner wall, which in turn stands on a floor which "floats on a rubber-tiled, 3-inch concrete slab. This upper slab floats on a layer of cork, which rests on the 6-inch concrete foundation slab"
        Able to provide up to 5 second delay. Capitol Studio still uses them
        http://www.acontinuouslean.com/2013/...studios-sound/
        http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun...l/me-capitol18
        "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
        "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Sydney View Post
          I know I've read more than one story of how good acoustics were lost unintentionally; [/URL]
          I once had a room built ground up (ventilation and everything) to IEC 268 specs, to evaluate our designs. The contractors knew it was an audio room and the team lead thought that meant all drywall had to be perfectly parallel to the millimeter. Flutter echo so bad it was hard to make out the sobbing

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          • #50
            Originally posted by DDF View Post
            ...and the team lead thought that meant all drywall had to be perfectly parallel to the millimeter. Flutter echo so bad it was hard to make out the sobbing
            Best intentions gone awry. Perfectly parallel is awful.
            "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
            "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by DDF View Post

              I once had a room built ground up (ventilation and everything) to IEC 268 specs, to evaluate our designs. The contractors knew it was an audio room and the team lead thought that meant all drywall had to be perfectly parallel to the millimeter. Flutter echo so bad it was hard to make out the sobbing
              I'd think the overall shape of the room would contribute much more, than how precisely the drywall was installed?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by philthien View Post
                One of my favorite parlor games is getting people that applaud a setup’s imaging to be specific with details. Once put on the spot, people tend to provide very vague answers that amount to very little. When two or more play, there is very little correlation.

                Binaural you say? Watch how Chesky does binaural, where the performers are in relation to one another, and the head/mics, and then come back and tell me if you still think the imaging is what you thought it was.
                So dive us your definition of imaging. Maybe you are using different definitions.
                craigk

                " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by craigk View Post

                  So dive us your definition of imaging. Maybe you are using different definitions.
                  Give me the textbook definition first.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by philthien View Post

                    Give me the textbook definition first.
                    A psychoacoustic effect where in a recorded sound source appears to occupy a unique definitive place in space detached or separated from the loudspeaker(s) or headphones reproducing the recording.
                    “Never ask people about your work.”
                    ― Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DE Focht View Post

                      A psychoacoustic effect where in a recorded sound source appears to occupy a unique definitive place in space detached or separated from the loudspeaker(s) or headphones reproducing the recording.
                      That will work.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by philthien View Post
                        I'd think the overall shape of the room would contribute much more, than how precisely the drywall was installed?
                        Once they are non parallel enough, room shape dominates. Once precisely parallel, flutter echo dominates. It’s hard to appreciate until you hear it. I had to add diffusers to just make the room usable

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by craigk View Post

                          Roger Waters Amused to Death is the best in my opinion. Just really amazing. I will post a few more later.
                          QSound has some interesting demos at their website:

                          http://www.qsound.com/demos/3d-audio.htm

                          Full disclosure: I'm never impressed by 3D demonstrations with crickets, and Amused to Death employs a lot of cricket sounds. Crickets are already very difficult to localize by sound (ever have one in your house?). And there is a good reason for that:

                          https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/...te_from_their/

                          Just listening to crickets on regular sound effects discs can convince one they have an actual cricket infestation.

                          I don't have a ton of experience with QSound otherwise, I'll listen to some of the discs listed here:

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DDF View Post
                            Once they are non parallel enough, room shape dominates. Once precisely parallel, flutter echo dominates. It’s hard to appreciate until you hear it. I had to add diffusers to just make the room usable
                            I learn something new every day.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by craigk View Post

                              Roger Waters Amused to Death is the best in my opinion. Just really amazing. I will post a few more later.
                              Okay I gave a listen to this with my "premium" Spotify service. Any concern I had that the effect wouldn't come through due to encoding/streaming was misplaced, there are some pretty amazing imaging effects going on here. I felt I could listen to many of the tracks and look directly at a speaker and feel it wasn't the source.

                              Then I switched to the latest Roger Waters disc, "Is This the Life We Really Want?" and the immediate lack of QSound encoding was apparent and the effect was gone. As an aside, so much of Waters' stuff seems repetitive and it was funny switching between tracks 25 years apart and finding so many consistent threads in his work, it makes this sort of QSound test very interesting.

                              Then I started playing some random symphonic tracks in my playlists and was immediately back to the point of feeling the symphony was beyond my speakers, that the speakers had once again somewhat faded away.

                              And then it occurred to me that a lot of the material to which I listen doesn't have any vocals. I imagine vocals complicates a recording engineer's job immensely, probably why vocal booths exist, I guess.

                              Even listening to Chesky's binaural recordings with vocals, you can get a sense of a sucked-out/hollow sound vs. more conventional recordings. If you look at photographs of Chesky binaural recording sessions, you can in fact see that they've arranged the performers in a circle around the recording head, instead of more conventional arrangements you might stumble upon at a live performance. I guess that is how they're mixing (in a gross sense) but still, ringing the performers around the mics isn't really going to impart the same sort of acoustics one might expect otherwise.

                              I'll listen to more QSound stuff, but thanks for bringing it up, it is pretty interesting material.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I had a Toshiba TV in the 90s with built in q sound, that it could apply to everything. Not as ideal as a recording with it encoded and they can optimize everything for the effect, but it was interesting. It definitely sounded hollow on most material, and I think that was caused by the HRTF they assumed vs my own. The variability in HRTF from person to person is huge. I measured HRTFs in an anechoic chamber and also studied variability from other papers as I had to create headphone design specs at one time.

                                Where q sound worked was with non musical material and non speech that had significant transient edges. I'll never forget listening to a ridden horse walk from my neighbour's back yard, through the wall and my living room, and then back out the other wall while watching "the Bear"

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