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O.T. IDEON renaissance 3R

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  • O.T. IDEON renaissance 3R

    I gave this little guy a try.....it was only a couple hundred dollars. It made a large difference in clarity when connected between my laptop an a peach tree dac-it. I haven't tried it with the NAD M51 yet, but with the cheaper dac it was definitely worth it as it took the performance up a couple of notches. I just thought it was worth a mention.

  • #2
    Thanks for posting. I had never even heard of these devices.

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    • #3
      It is just a powered usb hub, no?

      What happens if you plug a flash drive into it?

      Comment


      • #4
        Doing some more research on this device and similar units, it does appear they're simply decent USB hubs.

        I have a friend that was recently telling me about how a recent upgrade with a similar device has made all the difference in the world.

        I think my rolling eyes may have clued him in on how I felt, because he asked, "what?"

        I responded with a question of my own: "What is jitter?" He didn't seem to have a firm grasp of the concept.

        I explained that jitter is merely the measure of variation in timing between packet delivery.

        And, it only becomes a problem when those differences cause a problem for the buffer in the DAC.

        So as long as we can keep the DAC's buffer stuffed, we're golden.

        I imagine the greatest benefit of devices like these may be the improved power supply feeding the downstream USB device. But units that can provide better USB power to peripherals are less than $50, so.

        Comment


        • #5
          I was going to call BS, but looking into USB protocol there may be some merit. Audio streaming with isochronous transfer protocol would be potentially subject to data losses that CRC would detect, but not correct with a re-transmission.

          One issue though, the link between the PC and this device is still just as subject to data errors, and there's no way this device could re-create the data lost. Also, just because the USB clock was improved, doesn't mean data errors to the DAC are impossible.

          Edit... looked through another article. The DAC itself controls the clock (depending on the device, a good DAC should be using asynchronous clock so the timing of the DAC determines the speed of data flowing). In that case, this device will have no net effect on the quality of the audio. If the DAC is using synchronous or adaptive timing, this device may indeed provide an improvement by re-clocking the stream.
          Electronics engineer, woofer enthusiast, and musician.
          Wogg Music

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          • #6
            Originally posted by philthien View Post
            Doing some more research on this device and similar units, it does appear they're simply decent USB hubs.

            I have a friend that was recently telling me about how a recent upgrade with a similar device has made all the difference in the world.

            I think my rolling eyes may have clued him in on how I felt, because he asked, "what?"

            I responded with a question of my own: "What is jitter?" He didn't seem to have a firm grasp of the concept.

            I explained that jitter is merely the measure of variation in timing between packet delivery.

            And, it only becomes a problem when those differences cause a problem for the buffer in the DAC.

            So as long as we can keep the DAC's buffer stuffed, we're golden.

            I imagine the greatest benefit of devices like these may be the improved power supply feeding the downstream USB device. But units that can provide better USB power to peripherals are less than $50, so.
            What's the difference between the USB audio protocol and HDMI? I'm contemplating a DAC that uses HDMI since HDMI has a much higher overall data capacity.
            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wogg View Post
              Edit... looked through another article. The DAC itself controls the clock (depending on the device, a good DAC should be using asynchronous clock so the timing of the DAC determines the speed of data flowing). In that case, this device will have no net effect on the quality of the audio. If the DAC is using synchronous or adaptive timing, this device may indeed provide an improvement by re-clocking the stream.
              Don't know anything about HDMI other than error correction is employed which should mean that any DAC with an HDMI input relies entirely on its own clock.

              I'm sure someone else will correct me if I'm wrong.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by philthien View Post
                Doing some more research on this device and similar units, it does appear they're simply decent USB hubs.

                I have a friend that was recently telling me about how a recent upgrade with a similar device has made all the difference in the world.

                I think my rolling eyes may have clued him in on how I felt, because he asked, "what?"

                I responded with a question of my own: "What is jitter?" He didn't seem to have a firm grasp of the concept.

                I explained that jitter is merely the measure of variation in timing between packet delivery.

                And, it only becomes a problem when those differences cause a problem for the buffer in the DAC.

                So as long as we can keep the DAC's buffer stuffed, we're golden.

                I imagine the greatest benefit of devices like these may be the improved power supply feeding the downstream USB device. But units that can provide better USB power to peripherals are less than $50, so.
                Packet jitter has more to do with data transfer as in computer programs. Cycle jitter, is the main concern, in audio. Along with 4 or 5 .other types of jitter in an audio system. There is always going to be jitter in binary systems. No two clocks measure the same. very very small variations cause edge error. I think you need to read up on jitter, it is a very complex subject.
                craigk

                " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by craigk View Post

                  Packet jitter has more to do with data transfer as in computer programs. Cycle jitter, is the main concern, in audio. Along with 4 or 5 .other types of jitter in an audio system. There is always going to be jitter in binary systems. No two clocks measure the same. very very small variations cause edge error. I think you need to read up on jitter, it is a very complex subject.
                  Jitter is jitter, whether you're talking about packets or cycles or whatever.

                  And jitter is irrelevant if the DAC is feeding from its own buffer, provided that buffer isn't exhausted.

                  Suppose I have a stack of index cards, each with a letter of the alphabet.

                  I also have a line of ten people, and I hand each card, one at a time, to the first person in that line. They, in turn, hand the card to the next person in that line, and so it goes.

                  When the card reaches the end of the line, that person reads the letter printed on the card before disposing of it.

                  Nobody can hold two cards simultaneously.

                  Jitter is the deviation in the time between each card being handed to the final person.

                  Now suppose that final person is allowed to hold any number of cards. They may be 10 cards behind in reading them, but they can accept a card from the 9th person and place it on the bottom of their stack.

                  In other words, they now have a buffer.

                  Without the buffer, they are working synchronously.

                  With the buffer, the reader is working asynchronously, and jitter only becomes a problem if we can't keep the buffer from becoming exhausted.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by philthien View Post

                    Jitter is jitter, whether you're talking about packets or cycles or whatever.

                    And jitter is irrelevant if the DAC is feeding from its own buffer, provided that buffer isn't exhausted.

                    Suppose I have a stack of index cards, each with a letter of the alphabet.

                    I also have a line of ten people, and I hand each card, one at a time, to the first person in that line. They, in turn, hand the card to the next person in that line, and so it goes.

                    When the card reaches the end of the line, that person reads the letter printed on the card before disposing of it.

                    Nobody can hold two cards simultaneously.

                    Jitter is the deviation in the time between each card being handed to the final person.

                    Now suppose that final person is allowed to hold any number of cards. They may be 10 cards behind in reading them, but they can accept a card from the 9th person and place it on the bottom of their stack.

                    In other words, they now have a buffer.

                    Without the buffer, they are working synchronously.

                    With the buffer, the reader is working asynchronously, and jitter only becomes a problem if we can't keep the buffer from becoming exhausted.
                    Your wrong. There are several different types of jitter and have different effects on the system. If jitter is jitter why do the use different error correction programs for data and audio.
                    Just in the clock there is cycle to cycle, phase noise and phase jitter. All are very different, do different things to the signal and sound different. Your wikipedia card analogy is fine for packet jitter, but has nothinh to do with the others.
                    craigk

                    " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by craigk View Post

                      Your wrong. There are several different types of jitter and have different effects on the system. If jitter is jitter why do the use different error correction programs for data and audio.
                      Just in the clock there is cycle to cycle, phase noise and phase jitter. All are very different, do different things to the signal and sound different. Your wikipedia card analogy is fine for packet jitter, but has nothinh to do with the others.
                      LOL, forget about packets, jitter is all about time.

                      And when error detection and correction are employed, one does so depending on the type of data and the intended use.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by philthien View Post

                        LOL, forget about packets, jitter is all about time.

                        And when error detection and correction are employed, one does so depending on the type of data and the intended use.
                        Not real. In a dsta packet if more than a bit or two next to each other can't be fixed. In audio you can drop up to 4000 and it can be corrected. The only reason jitter is talked about as s time function is because it mskes it easier for people thst don't understand it. The more accurste way is to look at it as max phase amplitude within a bandwidth or a unit interval compsrrd to a data rste. Which you can use both to calculate a time function.
                        craigk

                        " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So what is it about this device that can fix the data before it gets to the DAC that the DAC can't fix on its own?
                          R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

                          Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


                          95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                          "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by craigk View Post

                            Not real. In a dsta packet if more than a bit or two next to each other can't be fixed. In audio you can drop up to 4000 and it can be corrected. The only reason jitter is talked about as s time function is because it mskes it easier for people thst don't understand it. The more accurste way is to look at it as max phase amplitude within a bandwidth or a unit interval compsrrd to a data rste. Which you can use both to calculate a time function.
                            I think you and I will have to agree to disagree.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by philthien View Post

                              I think you and I will have to agree to disagree.
                              That's fine, do some research and you will see that jitter is much more than a timing issue
                              .
                              craigk

                              " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

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