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  • #46
    I need a long run. I am think about getting 20-25. Normally I pull my speakers out and positions them for any real listening. That makes for longer runs. Is 16awg sufficient for this long of run?

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    • #47
      IMO, no. I really feel that long runs should be 14AWG or larger, and preferably 12AWG.
      Later,
      Wolf
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      • #48
        Originally posted by Wolf View Post
        IMO, no. I really feel that long runs should be 14AWG or larger, and preferably 12AWG.
        Later,
        Wolf
        That is what I was thinking as well. Not a big deal there are plenty of 12AWG options.

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        • #49
          I agree with the 12AWG recommendation, or even bigger for 4 ohm speakers. I used 10AWG to my subwoofers.
          Francis

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          • #50
            Originally posted by stephenmarklay View Post
            I need a long run. I am think about getting 20-25’. Normally I pull my speakers out and positions them for any real listening. That makes for longer runs. Is 16awg sufficient for this long of run?
            In spite of the nonsense espoused by audio snobs about material properties, the main issue of concern for cables is resistance.
            There are many tables available to determine the resistance of run length vs wire gauge. Roger Russell's guideline is to keep the wire resistance less than 5% of the nominal load (Russell led McIntosh's loudspeaker division in the 60's-80's) . That means that 16 gauge wire is suitable for 8 ohm speakers up to 48 feet. See his discussion and table at this link. It doesn't hurt to use larger gauge wire, as long as you can afford it.
            Free Passive Speaker Designer Lite (PSD-Lite) -- http://www.audiodevelopers.com/Softw...Lite/setup.exe

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            • #51
              Originally posted by neildavis View Post

              In spite of the nonsense espoused by audio snobs about material properties, the main issue of concern for cables is resistance.
              There are many tables available to determine the resistance of run length vs wire gauge. Roger Russell's guideline is to keep the wire resistance less than 5% of the nominal load (Russell led McIntosh's loudspeaker division in the 60's-80's) . That means that 16 gauge wire is suitable for 8 ohm speakers up to 48 feet. See his discussion and table at this link. It doesn't hurt to use larger gauge wire, as long as you can afford it.
              I will read up on that and thank you. It seems that I can get 12 gauge for about the same price as 16 so I will get larger.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by neildavis View Post

                In spite of the nonsense espoused by audio snobs about material properties, the main issue of concern for cables is resistance.
                There are many tables available to determine the resistance of run length vs wire gauge. Roger Russell's guideline is to keep the wire resistance less than 5% of the nominal load (Russell led McIntosh's loudspeaker division in the 60's-80's) . That means that 16 gauge wire is suitable for 8 ohm speakers up to 48 feet. See his discussion and table at this link. It doesn't hurt to use larger gauge wire, as long as you can afford it.
                Roger Russel's analysis (the link) supports the validity of HD lamp cord. The resistance and purity of common copper wire is more than adequate for many situations. And it comes in brown, white, clear (w/silver finish) and "decorator" black

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                • #53
                  Mike, I appreciate your argument, but Home Depot wire is no bargain. HD: Southwire 16-2 100' is $26. PE: Audtek 16-2 OFC 100' is under $19.
                  -Bob

                  The PEDS 2.1 mini system
                  My A7 Project - another small desktop speaker
                  The B3 Hybrid Dipole - thread incomplete and outdated

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                  • #54
                    Quad 8 AWG serpents for bi-amp'ing for the win. ;)

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by stephenmarklay View Post
                      I need a long run. I am think about getting 20-25. Normally I pull my speakers out and positions them for any real listening. That makes for longer runs. Is 16awg sufficient for this long of run?
                      25 ft of 16AWG is 0.1 ohm, so you can figure the signal loss across the cable from that. If you want to get real particular, load up your speaker's impedance sweep into a simulator, and add a 0.1 ohm resistor in series, which will provide you with a transfer function of the loss of power over frequency.

                      Taken one step further, run an impedance measurement of a direct connection to your speaker, and another from the end of 25ft of cable. This will show you the exact change in impedance, including the reactive components of the cable (capacitance and inductance).
                      "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
                      exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by guitar maestro View Post
                        Quad 8 AWG serpents for bi-amp'ing for the win. ;)

                        I might stay away from those, they look venomous ;)
                        "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
                        exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

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                        • #57
                          ​Thank you for linking that. That was the article that I had read way back in Speaker Builder Magazine. What is nice about that article, is that actual instrument derived measurements are posted. Everyone here should read that article, especially Millstonemike.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by View Post

                            ​Thank you for linking that. That was the article that I had read way back in Speaker Builder Magazine. What is nice about that article, is that actual instrument derived measurements are posted. Everyone here should read that article, especially Millstonemike.
                            So Nelson Pass has shown that low inductance cables have, you guessed it, low inductance. 40ft and 100kHz may be a bit out of the "normal use" category, since most will be used at 10ft lengths and <20kHz. At the end of the day all it has shown is that low inductace = wider pass band since a series inductor is a low pass filter. Over long lengths the "insertion loss" is non-linear since the load isn't purely resistive, but we have the tools available to both measure the insertion loss for long cables, and even compensate for it with some minor EQ if the 1dB variance in frequency response makes your ears cry. You can get real particular, and just do all your crossover design work with the cables you intend to use in place, so all your frequency response measurements include the effects of the intended cable.
                            "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
                            exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by dcibel View Post

                              So Nelson Pass has shown that low inductance cables have, you guessed it, low inductance. 40ft and 100kHz may be a bit out of the "normal use" category, since most will be used at 10ft lengths and <20kHz. At the end of the day all it has shown is that low inductace = wider pass band since a series inductor is a low pass filter. Over long lengths the "insertion loss" is non-linear since the load isn't purely resistive, but we have the tools available to both measure the insertion loss for long cables, and even compensate for it with some minor EQ if the 1dB variance in frequency response makes your ears cry. You can get real particular, and just do all your crossover design work with the cables you intend to use in place, so all your frequency response measurements include the effects of the intended cable.
                              The concern at ultrasonic frequencies is mainly about the effects on amplifier stability.
                              Francis

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                              • #60
                                I braided together some PE 18ga speaker cable for easy testing with banana jacks on either end. No more than 8' on either cable.
                                Click image for larger version

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