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In conclusion: "Fenrir"...

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  • #16
    Nice, Ben. It's good to see some more info on these, and it was good to hear them at InDIYana. Do you have any thoughts on the differences between your design and the MTM version that was also at the show?Your speakers sounded very nice and refined to my ears, but the MTM version had either a distortion issue from a tweeter crossover point that was too low (1.8k) or an uncontrolled woofer breakup. I couldn't quite place what I was hearing, but there was definitely an upper-midrange harshness in the MTM, especially at higher volumes.
    Eric L.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by dst View Post
      What are you impression of these woofers and the others offered by the RAD site?
      I feel that the Rival woofers are on par with a lot of the Scandinavian offerings, or even their Chinese copies. You don't see 7" woofers with impedance profiles such as these. They are ruler flat with almost no rise at all. They have a full copper sleeve on the center pole, so that helps a lot. I have another pair of a different model Rival, and they Le is even lower than on these pictured above.

      Fred-
      I feel the design where I ended up is a very nice sounding design, and a first-class implementation for these very special drivers. I like them a lot!

      Billet-
      Your thoughts concur with mine here. I really like the aesthetic as well. They turned out very nice looking. I'm just laying out the thought process I went through during the design stage. What you heard at InDIYana was the final xover circuit, and I'm very happy with where they ended up.

      Eric-
      I think it was a little of everything. Low xover, undamped breakup, and untweaked levels in the attenuation resistors. I played with mine for over 2 weeks to get them where I wanted. I'll get into that more in the thread progress. I did comp the breakup with an LC, and xovered high enough that the HD shouldn't have been a concern.

      And on with more info...
      Wolf
      "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
      "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
      "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
      "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

      *InDIYana event website*

      Photobucket pages:
      http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

      My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

      Comment


      • #18
        Okay- so I constructed the xovers as I had modeled them. I had no choice but to place the coils for the woofer circuit where I did. They are about 0.75" apart, so I did the best I could. I happened to have foils for the values required, so that is what I used. I had to wind the coils for the 0.2mH tweeter shunt and the 0.1mH woofer shunt. I also had to piece the caps for the tweeter circuit, as 7.5uF and 8.0uF are not common values.

        This is how they looked upon completion...
        Woofer xover:
        Click image for larger version

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        Tweeter xover:
        Click image for larger version

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        I really thought they sounded good after I put them together. After a bit of listening, something was just missing.

        Then I measured them, and got this less than modeled result:
        Click image for larger version

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        I had a -5dB broad dip centered at the xover point. I measured reverse polarity to make sure I didn't just flip something, and that was worse, so I went on to modify what I had here. PCD showed that increasing the first cap in the tweeter network would lift the early rolloff to a flatter result. Also since the resistors in the network attenuated either end of the response, I just¬*bypassed the first one and measured again:

        Click image for larger version

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        I was on the right track. I don't really know what caused the discrepancy between sim and measured this time around, but I've never had this issue before. Listening proved that this as just a bit hot now over all, so I added a bit more resistance in the aft position to tilt it down a smidge.

        Measured result:
        Click image for larger version

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        That's where I left it. It sounded good, resolved well with¬*good detail, and the mild dip could take out the edge¬*most listeners would fatigue from.

        Only a few posts to go to complete the saga...
        Wolf¬*¬*
        "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
        "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
        "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
        "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

        *InDIYana event website*

        Photobucket pages:
        http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

        My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

        Comment


        • #19
          So- I had this smoothed response of what you saw last posted above. They are the same except for the smoothing (1/6th)¬*applied:
          Click image for larger version  Name:	FenrirVoiced_1-6thFR.jpg Views:	1 Size:	92.3 KB ID:	1374423

          This is where the HD came out for the system, no smoothing applied, -9dB level on the preamp, so pretty darn loud:

          Click image for larger version  Name:	FenrirVoicedHD_-9dB.jpg Views:	1 Size:	181.3 KB ID:	1374424

          I just now realized this HD plot does not go to 20k, oh well...
          ¬*Anyway, the magnitude of the fundamental is about 95dB, and the HD of the second order is -45dB from reference or lower from about 300 Hz on up. This means the tweeter is happy, and the range of the woofer breakup appears to also be well damped because it does not show in the HD plot. Along with the +/-2dB smoothed response, and the minor dip in the highly sensitive region, this really presents a non-fatiguing result, and sounds very good too!

          The xover point resulted at 2.6kHz after the adjustments as compared to the former 2.8kHz initial simulation. Since the drivers are both -6dB at the xover point, this is an even-order LR style, and they sum in phase as a result. The slopes are only about 20dB/octave effectively, but the summation should be seen as 2.6kHz/LR4.

          Under listening, sometimes the woofer will beam just a smidge with the right female vocal material. However, this is very minor and likely splitting hairs for most cases. If you listen just above the tweeter axis, or toe them in a bit less than optimal, the issue basically goes away.

          The impedance is rather benign, save for one minute region just above the xover point at about 3.2-3.3kHz. Due to the finagling of the frequency response to flatten it out or fill it in, the series resistance was omitted, and it therefore droops to about 3.0 ohms in this spot. The phase angle is not coinciding to have a highly capacitive value¬*in this area, so most amplifiers will not see this as a difficult load to drive. This is one of those cases where I would prefer a better result on paper in terms of Zmin, but it's not really avoidable, nor is it problematic in nature. It's just one of those things that irk me and I wish could have been better.

          Click image for larger version  Name:	FenrirZ.jpg Views:	1 Size:	163.4 KB ID:	1374425

          You can see the cursor verifies the 41 Hz tuning, so I was pretty well spot on as far as the box goes.

          Since I had a 10uF cap with about 4 parts making it, you can see way above that I swapped in a single 10uF Clarity DTAC for the first tweeter cap. Why use more parts than you have to? That's 6 parts I can use some other time. Here is the schematic as I built it and the resistors are real resistors not including the DCR of the coils adjacent. Some have asked me why I used a SXO on this pairing, but the circuit is of the parallel variety this time around. Apparently the way I drew it is misleading because I just overlapped the 3rd order filters atop of one another. Click image for larger version  Name:	FenrirXover.png Views:	1 Size:	109.3 KB ID:	1374426

          So, there you have it! Why I made the decisions I did and what made me do what I did. I hope the information was applicable to others' knowledge, and provides some insight to some scenarios that should be carefully resolved.

          Thanks for reading!
          Wolf
          Last edited by Wolf; 05-03-2018, 03:10 PM.
          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

          *InDIYana event website*

          Photobucket pages:
          http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

          My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by jhollander View Post
            Don did you get the P or the CP drivers?¬* Looks like they may have change the part numbers on the web site
            I don't want to hijack Wolfs thread, but I've got a quad of the coated paper (CP) , a quad of the Aramids, and a pair of Kevlar (KCB)

            I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
            "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

            High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
            SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
            My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

            Tangband W6-sub

            Comment


            • #21
              I wondered just how good the Wavecor TW022 tweeter was, and some googling found some tests on¬*heissmann-acoustics <dot> de
              FR, distortion and decay look pretty good.

              I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
              "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

              High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
              SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
              My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

              Tangband W6-sub

              Comment


              • #22
                His 2nd order¬*HD measured about 5dB lower than I did with my 2 units. I also did not get as flat of an FR like he had for them. I had seen his data before, but didn't know the source of the information.

                I¬*know my data allowed me to make a nice sounding speaker, so that's what matters to me in a nutshell. Thanks for the link info...

                Later,
                Wolf
                "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                *InDIYana event website*

                Photobucket pages:
                http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                Comment


                • #23
                  Those cabinets are amazing, remind me a bit of a lava lamp, I would be unable to take my eyes off them. ¬*Iíll bet they sound great, too.¬*

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Those fenrir woofs are on sale now.
                    No matter where you go, there you are.
                    Website

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Why dual ports? Would one single larger port have been problematic?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thank you for offering up this most excellent design!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by View Post
                          Why dual ports? Would one single larger port have been problematic?
                          It would have been hard to fit within the constraints of the box. 2" was not enough in single, as I'm using dual 1.5" diameter ports. Being the depth of the driver, the depth of the cab to make it 18 ltrs, It just would not have fit physically if I went with a single large port.

                          Phil-
                          I really like how they turned out as well. That's a very highly figured piece of Pine ply, and it suits the design very well.

                          dst-
                          You are welcome! I'm very pleased at their capabilities. Net sensitivity is a bit low at about 81-82dB, but they'll take the juice to get to a moderate level just fine.

                          Later,
                          Wolf
                          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                          *InDIYana event website*

                          Photobucket pages:
                          http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                          My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Ben -

                            Besides the excellent drivers and design, I like 2 things about this build:
                            The wrap around pine grain is awesome!¬* What did you use to pop the grain?
                            I loved your talk about hacking the box to get the crossovers to fit. I've had to do that more than once....
                            ¬*

                            I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
                            "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

                            High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
                            SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
                            My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

                            Tangband W6-sub

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Well, I really¬*didn't do anything extra to pop it. It was really nice grain to start with. I sanded/finished with 80/120/300/poly, 300/0000steel/poly, 0000steel/poly, 0000steel/clean off. This is the oil-based 'high-build polyurethane' from Minwax, wiped on with a t-shirt rag. This was not the 'wipe-on' poly, or the water based, as I prefer the golden sheen of the oil stuff. It turned out really pretty!

                              Poly and pine is a pretty simple finish, and if the grain is figured, even better! I have used Minwax pre-treatment in the past for stains on Pine if I'm staining it, but since I didn't stain it- I didn't use it.

                              Later,
                              Wolf
                              "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                              "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                              "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                              "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                              *InDIYana event website*

                              Photobucket pages:
                              http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                              My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Wolf, I'm not usually a fan of Pine but your cabinets look really good. I think the figured look you describe is the face veneer is rotary cut as opposed to plain slice
                                or quatered. Rotary cut has the benefit of having no seams on the face. Anyway nice project, I bet it sounds as good as it looks. Will this become a kit?

                                Comment

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