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  • #91
    Originally posted by kimmosto View Post
    This pdf is probably as bad and difficult as my previous explanations, but please do not mind too much.
    The diagrams are excellent, Kimmo.

    Comment


    • #92
      I haven't followed this phase discussion in great detail to be honest, but I'd like to chime in with my own experiences. The diagrams are good, but I don't think the situation is necessarily true in all cases. When you take a measurement with a single channel system and extract min phase, you have to add in the excess phase yourself to determine the point where the signal reaches the mic, or the relationships between multiple sources. So that's not to say that you couldn't add in excess phase to make the path length match that of a 2-channel system, but there's more work involved and a greater possibility of inaccuracy along the way.

      In my experience, the benefit if the 2 channel system is that it is easier to understand the relationships between multiple sources, the excess phase or group delay or time delay ,whatever you want to cll it can literally be measured in a ruler type of sense. This makes it easier to get the phase relationships correct when taking measurements for speaker design purposes. With a single channel system, you have to do a few steps in between the measurement and its use for design, so there is a greater room for human error, or just plain getting something wrong in the process. For this reason, I prefer using a 2 channel setup for design purpose, and a single channel setup is great for in-room measurements, distortion analysis, due to it being a lot more "plug and play" for that purpose.
      "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
      exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by civit View Post

        The diagrams are excellent, Kimmo.
        +1 just looked at it. That was an extremely simple and effective way to depict it. In other words, it made perfect sense to me looking at it, where as before reading it, I didn't know WTF he was talking about, so yeah, I'd say this'll help us noobs.
        Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

        Passive Radiators:
        All PR(s) Vd must at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). If all PR(s) Vd at-least double all woofer(s) Vd they'll work.
        For woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax will work.
        A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

        PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
        PR Speaker Design - thorough coverage.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by dcibel View Post
          The diagrams are good, but I don't think the situation is necessarily true in all cases.
          Purpose was not to show situation which is true in all cases. Coaxial case was visualized because it's (hopefully) clear and easy to understand and was simulated earlier with VituixCAD. Message #90 is important sequel for linked pdf-file. #90 tries to tell that also closed system with significant driver offset is possible to handle quite properly with minimum phase measurements, but mandatory requirement is that difference in acoustic centers is NOT entered to physical offset i.e. Z coordinate of tweeter. It must be added as a delay to all off-axis responses of tweeter, and Z coordinate of both T and W should be the same 0 mm to keep difference of acoustic centers constant to all directions. It's not exactly constant IRL but this is the best option with basic level simulators and minimum phase responses.

          Dual channel gear and measured phase has been strict policy in my documentation and messages since the beginning of VituixCAD. It's rock solid system for almost any kind of speaker construction without need for subjective settings or workarounds to get truthful simulation result to full 360 deg sector. Debate was expected but kinda unnecessary because simplified minimum phase method is mostly tradition which could fade away imo.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by kimmosto View Post
            Debate was expected but kinda unnecessary because simplified minimum phase method is mostly tradition which could fade away imo.
            Setting up a dual channel system was tricky at first but once I figured out I could loopback without involving my power amp it became easier. It's also a cheap measuring solution:
            ARTA - 90USD
            Behringer audio interface - 100USD
            Dayton EMM-6 mic - 40 USD
            Loopback cable - 8 USD

            A pretty robust measurement setup for under $250. I tend to make a lot of measurements when I'm tweaking midrange and treble drivers, and the fact I can just hit measure twice and all the phase relationships are automatically intact is huge for me. If I'm simulating I adjust the time of flight out.

            ARTA itself has some awesome features - the automatic and semi automatic polar measurement interface is awesome, and the fact that it includes a very flexible RTA, distortion and impedance measurement package is great. I really like STEPS.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Thump View Post
              * Make it possible to actually rename the C / L / R instead of locking it down and only providing auto increment for them.
              *Add a rotatable Text / Label component ... This would also allow comments to be added directly to the schematic.
              I'm working on manual and semi-automatic part renumbering at the moment. These will be in the next revision.

              Originally posted by Thump View Post
              Allow entering or loading all the T/S parameters for a driver, especially for lib driver block. Right now I figure it's not usable (or you would have done this) so I'm probably going to just manually create entries for them inside the block as new rows to have as references.
              Sorry that I need to read this few more times to understand your problem.
              Some background about T/S data. VituixCAD has integrated pdf reader for datasheets, but it runs in debug mode only. I'd like have full control to master online database. User can maintain local database also with Excel, and send me new records by e-main if willing to share something, though this has not been very popular. About 1% of data is received from single user. Better/some instructions would help for sure.

              Comment


              • #97

                Originally posted by kimmosto View Post
                I'm working on manual and semi-automatic part renumbering at the moment. These will be in the next revision.


                Ok fantastic, that'll definitely help. When (or if) you get time, as it does seem a simple, short implementation regarding code effort and time, a label / comment component will help us produce more meaningful, descriptive diagrams too. Calling out low pass / bandpass / high pass sections simply by being able to place anywhere on the circuit diagram a comment text component near a relevant section will be especially help to quickly understand a circuit diagram at a glance. But, it's useful in many ways, that's just 1 example. Such as Low-Pass Filter text like a label, etc:








                Click image for larger version  Name:	Text component showing circuit section information.png Views:	1 Size:	11.9 KB ID:	1393339



                Originally posted by kimmosto View Post
                Sorry that I need to read this few more times to understand your problem.
                Some background about T/S data. VituixCAD has integrated pdf reader for datasheets, but it runs in debug mode only. I'd like have full control to master online database. User can maintain local database also with Excel, and send me new records by e-main if willing to share something, though this has not been very popular. About 1% of data is received from single user. Better/some instructions would help for sure.
                It's not a problem. It's me wondering if any calculations inside VCAD uses (or would benefit from) having a full breakdown of T/S parameters in a record. Having an online database is something many keep trying to do.

                I know HiFiCompass has started one. I don't know if he provides a REST API we could use to reference a drivers parameters. If so I'd also use it to upload, such as DATS v2 parameters from my original Esoteric series mids and woofers, and the original CSS-RT2 True Ribbon. Of all the ones I've seen, his is the most comprehensive but he's doing a huge amount of work personally on each one. That's a big job.

                If he were to provide a T/S parameter REST input others could help by importing parameters from a much larger range. It could be a dedicated T/S parameter section for drivers to at-least build up a vast online parameter list. It just wouldn't have all the rest of the extreme detail since not everyone has the gear or experience to obtain that other information. But T/S would be useful certainly. That could include entering manufacturer provided parameters for those without DATS or other means of live driver polling.

                But as you say, keeping it up to date is sporadic at best and not many individuals provide their own. That leaves a LOT of work for authors of a site or program to do it, which most (including you, and me too) can't spend the time on it vs how much effort is required to maintain it.

                It's untenable situation, especially since live parameters deviate between same drivers so often. That' just real life and nothing anyone can "fix" since there really isn't a fix for it.

                However, even having it available as a driver section on schematic will be useful to a user looking at a schematic. Perhaps the ability to directly import TS parameter file into local driver record (for driver component) would be enough.

                For example, when using X-Over Pro 3 part of its output is like this:

                Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch?photoid=1393334.png Views:	2 Size:	536.5 KB ID:	1393337

                From DATS v2:
                Click image for larger version  Name:	DATS_v2_Dump.png Views:	2 Size:	98.8 KB ID:	1393338

                Unfortunately DATS v2 doesn't appear to be able to export this data to a straight .txt file for import, which is very strange
                Last edited by Thump; 11-10-2018, 08:12 AM. Reason: Clarified
                Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

                Passive Radiators:
                All PR(s) Vd must at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). If all PR(s) Vd at-least double all woofer(s) Vd they'll work.
                For woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax will work.
                A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

                PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
                PR Speaker Design - thorough coverage.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Rev 2.0.5.8 (2018-11-11) with manual part numbering, semi-automatic part renumbering and comment text object is out.

                  Few comments. I've not been so keen to add part numbering or comment texts or any other features which are not mandatory for personal diy use. Fully controlled part numbering and comments are more important for producing documents for manufacturing and publishing, which are not main tasks of VituixCAD (for personal use). Using of existing PCB kit or modification existing diy design benefit common part numbers for sure, but it's still not mandatory for simulation.

                  In addition, I've sensed that single...few commercial designers are pushing VituixCAD to direction they could use it for business for free. Basic rule is that I do nothing without personal need or motivation; technical or programming challenge. So the first one who will ask hiding of component values to support publishing of commercial diy designs (without using Paint etc) could start discussion with donation of $1000

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Thump View Post
                    However, even having it available as a driver section on schematic will be useful to a user looking at a schematic. Perhaps the ability to directly import TS parameter file into local driver record (for driver component) would be enough.
                    Crossover simulation in the main program and radiator simulation with driver T/S, enclosure and diffraction/OB are separate tasks in VituixCAD. Basic principle is that crossover simulation plays electrical part of the design in addition to summing of acoustical signals in frequency response data.
                    Some other programs simulate radiators inside crossover simulation, but that policy has not been adopted to VCAD due to infinite amount of possible radiator types and "requirement" of full/half space off-axis data. Producing simulated LF data to full space could be anything within easy and impossible, and therefore easiest is to keep delivery limit strict: nothing from radiators (except name) in crossover simulation. Datasheet or measured T/S could be appendices with schematic.

                    Comment


                    • Ok that makes perfect sense and why I was asking. It seemed extremely likely to be so variable as to make it impossible to represent true reality no matter what. But, I needed to confirm!

                      So yes, the last part makes good sense to me and is why I had that as last part of my suggestion. Being able to reference that information visually in / with the diagram allows as much useful information as possible to exist for the viewer.

                      The best example of why this is useful is projects people create and document, especially when other people are going to build that project. They'll have precise TS and other information as their reference point.

                      Since so many times drivers go out of supply (end of life) they have to find equivalents for the drivers. Being able to compare parameters from schematic vs drivers as "suitable replacements" would really help them find replacements faster and more accurately I believe.

                      Originally posted by kimmosto View Post

                      Crossover simulation in the main program and radiator simulation with driver T/S, enclosure and diffraction/OB are separate tasks in VituixCAD. Basic principle is that crossover simulation plays electrical part of the design in addition to summing of acoustical signals in frequency response data.
                      Some other programs simulate radiators inside crossover simulation, but that policy has not been adopted to VCAD due to infinite amount of possible radiator types and "requirement" of full/half space off-axis data. Producing simulated LF data to full space could be anything within easy and impossible, and therefore easiest is to keep delivery limit strict: nothing from radiators (except name) in crossover simulation. Datasheet or measured T/S could be appendices with schematic.
                      Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

                      Passive Radiators:
                      All PR(s) Vd must at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). If all PR(s) Vd at-least double all woofer(s) Vd they'll work.
                      For woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax will work.
                      A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

                      PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
                      PR Speaker Design - thorough coverage.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kimmosto View Post
                        Rev 2.0.5.8 (2018-11-11) with manual part numbering, semi-automatic part renumbering and comment text object is out.

                        Excellent! Will try this immediately. Thank you for taking my recommendation on comment component if that's what you did. I'll find out shortly.

                        As too the usefulness of comments, it's specifically for DIY so that others can more easily follow and understand nuances, circuit sections and various notes the designer wants or needs to convey. There are many examples.
                        • Call out a selection or range of suitable resistor / inductor / capacitor ranges as replacements, giving a particular output variation a user may want, maybe even as a replacement instead of using an L-Pad etc.
                        • Mention caveats as to why part X instead of part Y is there.
                        • Describe a problem, scenario or flaw that is present and needs accounted for that wasn't (and couldn't be, for whatever reason) in the original design.
                        • etc
                        In regards to your commercial related notes - I'm not even thinking about that, and wasn't, but I certainly understand why you would be thinking about it.

                        I believe all you have to do is add a license that explicitly states VituixCAD is for personal DIY non commercial use. And further, for anyone that wants to use VituixCAD for commercial use, a commercial license purchase is required.

                        However, I'd much prefer your program remain exactly in-line with your original vision; a DIY tool for use by the DIY community that provides comprehensive features we actually need in one program instead of having to use 10 or 15 different ones to do the same thing. You're filling in a void in the DIY space as far as I'm concerned.

                        The void you're filling is providing a UX written in a way even novice designers (such as me and so many other noobs) where it's intuitive to use and doesn't require having so much pre-existing knowledge to get started sooner. This is what my recommendations focus on - making it as intuitive and useful as possible so even novice can create a fully fleshed out design they can be proud of, take feedback on, tweak and tune until they're satisfied with it.

                        That's part of the real joy of DIY; creating something from scratch (or reference points) and turning it into reality. It's an incredible feeling going from nothing to something, when it works

                        Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

                        Passive Radiators:
                        All PR(s) Vd must at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). If all PR(s) Vd at-least double all woofer(s) Vd they'll work.
                        For woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax will work.
                        A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

                        PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
                        PR Speaker Design - thorough coverage.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Thump View Post
                          In regards to your commercial related notes - I'm not even thinking about that, and wasn't, but I certainly understand why you would be thinking about it.

                          I believe all you have to do is add a license that explicitly states VituixCAD is for personal DIY non commercial use. And further, for anyone that wants to use VituixCAD for commercial use, a commercial license purchase is required.
                          So far I have given permission to use for commercial design without extra charge - if openly asked. Few local commercial designers use at least some features or tools. Only requirement is that software should be adequate as is without public or private pressing while keeping secret that features are needed for commercial work.

                          I design commercial speakers too, but this product represents my programming hobby. VCAD already exceeds my needs also for commercial designs but that does not stop development if some motivation exists.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by kimmosto View Post

                            So far I have given permission to use for commercial design without extra charge - if openly asked. Few local commercial designers use at least some features or tools. Only requirement is that software should be adequate as is without public or private pressing while keeping secret that features are needed for commercial work.

                            I design commercial speakers too, but this product represents my programming hobby. VCAD already exceeds my needs also for commercial designs but that does not stop development if some motivation exists.
                            Ah, well that is very nice of you then. Hopefully whomever they are - do - properly donate for such a worthy tool.

                            For me I find this program extremely compelling. I hope your inspiration continues and we see it grow as time (and motivation) permits. It's pretty damn good IMO.

                            I'll test renaming components (C1, R2 etc) shortly. And big thanks for implementing comment object too . I used 3 text objects at top to simulate paragraph.

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Esoteric_LCR.v1.21_XO-schema.png
Views:	1
Size:	30.5 KB
ID:	1393504
                            Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

                            Passive Radiators:
                            All PR(s) Vd must at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). If all PR(s) Vd at-least double all woofer(s) Vd they'll work.
                            For woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax will work.
                            A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

                            PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
                            PR Speaker Design - thorough coverage.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Thump View Post
                              big thanks for implementing comment object too
                              If you prefer multi-line comments, just download and install the latest built uploaded few minutes ago. That wasn't too difficult and xml project file accepts multi-line content too.
                              Last edited by kimmosto; 11-12-2018, 10:30 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by kimmosto View Post

                                If you prefer multi-line comments, just download and install the latest built uploaded few minutes ago. That wasn't too difficult and xml project file accepts multi-line content too.
                                Just tested. That's perfect, thanks
                                Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

                                Passive Radiators:
                                All PR(s) Vd must at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). If all PR(s) Vd at-least double all woofer(s) Vd they'll work.
                                For woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax will work.
                                A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

                                PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
                                PR Speaker Design - thorough coverage.

                                Comment

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